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artimus261
2017-02-11, 01:35 PM
The Dragon Shaman is one of my favorite classes. They need love. I want to say for the sake of saying it before I post my fix however that hey, they get energy immunity. That's bad ass, and to anyone who has a DM who just never has that come up. That's bad dming. If you don't give your fire immune dragon shaman the chance to just stand and take the evil wizard's fireball like a champ then you're just bein a **** :P everyone needs their chance to shine. Anyways, on to my fix that I feel like lets them advance in various ways unique to the class without distracting from their need from basic feats like power attack or whatever the player wants.

d12 HD instead of d10

Add Listen and Spot to skill list.

At 1st level the Dragon Shaman gains the Dragontouched feat as a bonus feat.

Martial Weapon Proficiency: The Dragon Shaman gains proficiency with a single martial melee weapon of their choice.

Skill Boost(Replaces Skill Focus bonus feats): A Dragon Shaman gains a +5 bonus to a single skill granted to them by their totem dragon. They select one at 2nd level, 8th level, and 16th level.

Totem Dragon and Draconic Heritage: The Dragon Shaman is considered to have the Draconic Heritage feat for the purpose of selecting feats by virtue of his Totem Dragon

Bonus Feats
Beginning at 4th level the Dragon Shaman begins to gain bonus feats that help foster the draconic power in his blood. The Dragon Shaman must qualify for these feats as normal except where listed. The Dragon Shaman selects them from the following list and gains another every 4 levels above 4th(8th, 12th, 16th, 20th):
Ability Focus([totem color] Dragon Lineage)(MMI), Ability Focus(breath weapon)(MMI), Alertness, Animal Affinity, Armor of Scales(DrgMg), Athletic, Blind-fight, Daunting Presence(MiniHndbk), Deceitful, Diehard, Diligent, Double Draconic Aura(DrgMg), Draconic Claw(RofDrg), Draconic Knowledge(DrgMg), Draconic Senses(DrgMg), Draconic Skin(RofDrg), Draconic Toughness(RofDrg), Dragon Cohort(Drcnmcn), Dragon Hunter(Drcnmcn), Dragon Hunter Bravery(Drcnmcn), Dragon Hunter Defense(Drcnmcn), Dragon Steed(Drcnmcn), Dragon Tail(Ignores 1st level requirement)(RofDrg), Dragon Trainer(RofDrg), Dragon Wings(Ignore 1st level requirement)(RofDrg), Dragonebane(Drcnmcn), Dragoncrafter(Drcnmcn), Dragondoom(Drcnmcn), Dragonfire Assault(DrgMg), Dragonfoe(Drcnmcn), Dragonfriend(Drcnmcn), Dragonthrall(Drcnmcn), Endurance, Enlarge Breath(Drcnmcn), Entangling Exhalation(RofDrg), Exhaled Barrier(RofDrg), Exhaled Immunity(RofDrg), Extend Spreading Breath(Drcnmcn), Eyes in the Back of Your Head(CmpWar), Faster Healing(CmpWar), Flyby Attack(MMI), Force of Personality(CmpAdv), Frightful Presence(Drcnmcn), Goad(CmpAdv), Great Fortitude, Hear the Unseen(CmpAdv), Heart of Dragons(DrgMg), Heavyweight Wings(RofDrg), Heighten Breath(Drcnmcn), Hover(MMI), Improved Dragon Wings(RofDrg), Improved Flight(CmpAdv), Improved Natural Armor(MMI), Improved Toughness(CmpWar), Indomitable Will(PHBII), Intimidating Strike(PHBII), Investigator, Iron Will, Keen-Eared Scout(PHBII), Kiai Shout(CmpWar), Lightning Reflexes, Lingering Breath(Drcnmcn), Magical Aptitude, Maximize Breath(Drcnmcn), Power Climb(Drcnmcn), Power Dive(Drcnmcn), Quicken Breath(Drcnmcn), Persuasive, Recover Breath(Drcnmcn), Reinforced Wings(RofDrg), Self-Sufficient, Shape Breath(Drcnmcn), Skill Focus(any Dragon Shaman class skill), Spreading Breath(Drcnmcn), Split Breath(Drcnmcn), Steadfast Determination(PHBII), Toughness, Wingover(MMI), Words of Draconic Power(DrgMg)

The Dragon Shaman can also select the following feats. These feats all activate whenever the Dragon Shaman uses his Breath Weapon except for Draconic Arcane Grace which expends the use of his breath weapon for it's effect. The spell level for these effects is equal to the number of d6 his breath weapon deals(maximum 9).
Applicable Feats: Draconic Arcane Grace(Races of Dragon), Draconic Armor(Dragon Magic), Draconic Flight(Races of Dragon), Draconic Persuasion(Races of Dragon), Draconic Presence(Races of Dragon), Draconic Vigor(Dragon Magic)

I would most likely rule that the above feats require a target for the dragon shaman's breath weapon to avoid them being over used and to avoid a character breathing fire all the time just to heal himself or to reach that ledge above him...

The Dragon Shaman can also select the Dragon Lineage feat of their color(listed as [Totem Color] Dragon Lineage in Dragon Magic). They can perform the ability listed by sacrificing the use of their breath weapon to activate it. The effective spell level of their breath weapon for these effects is equal to the number of d6s their breath weapon inflicts(maximum 9th). While Ability Focus(breath weapon) does not increase the DC of these effects Recover Breath does still reduce the number of rounds they must wait before using their Breath Weapon or this ability(or Draconic Arcane Grace for that matter) again.

As a small example an 8th level dragon shaman with the blue dragon as his totem who selected Blue Dragon Lineage could now create 4 orbs of electricity that each deal 1d6 + the dragon shaman's charisma modifier in electricity damage to targets within 30ft of him.

DrgMg: Dragon Magic
RofDrg: Races of Dragon
Drcnmcn: Draconomicon
CmpWar: Complete Warrior
CmpAdv: Complete Adventurer
MMI: Monster Manual I
MiniHndbk: Miniature's Handbook
PHBII: The Player’s Handbook II

While having the feats that add wings to a character might seem like a waste it is important to consider that this allows them to obtain it much earlier than 19th level if the player wishes it, and even improve it if they wish without taking away from the feats they'd like to choose otherwise. This list also allows one to improve their helath and natural armor if they are seeking to be the best tank they can be. Intimidation and fear based effects along with other techniques allow a high charisma dragsham to improve their combat techniques. And as for Dragon Cohort and Dragon Steed can you think of anything more dragon shamany than a cloaked scaled figure riding in on a dragon with a little flying dragon as a companion? I doubt it. Then there's of course all of the metabreath feats for the dragonshamans who'd like to excel at this without having to waste all of their all-important feats on it. Alright everyone, feedback, give it to me. I hunger.

Grod_The_Giant
2017-02-11, 02:32 PM
It's a small, thematic boost on a class that honestly needs more than that. I'd look into adding some combination of the following:

Full BAB and a d12 HD, Dragon-HD-style
Breath Weapon does 1d6/level, and you can't stack multiple iterations of the same metabreath feat on it, simultaneously making it a useful attack and closing a major potential avenue for abuse
Automatically get full ranks in your Totem Dragon skills, both giving you a bit more leeway skill-wise and making the choice more meaningful.
Auras scale much faster (with Cha, say, or just at double speed), and you know all auras from level 1.
A higher level set of Draconic Adaptations later on, with more of the older-dragon SLAs

artimus261
2017-02-11, 02:56 PM
While I don't feel all of that is quite needed I could definitely see full base attack bonus and a d12 HD being a good boost to them. And the auras having their normal growth + the dragon shaman's charisma mod would be an easy way for it to be much better faster while requiring them to actually have a stat to make it that way so that a dragon shaman with +3 charisma at 1st level could still boast a DR 4/magic aura for his allies or just +4 on melee damage which especially early game would just make them amazing and even +8 and 9 late game is nothing to scoff at entirely, especially when the dual wielding ranger or whirlwind attack fighter potentially make huge numbers of attacks each round. Even the rogue might appreciate it to help puncture some DR

Though I still feel like getting improved toughness, ability focus (breath weapon), recover breath, dragon cohort, and double draconic aura for free isn't exactly lacking, those minor changes to their base characteristics makes for a nice general upgrade

artimus261
2017-02-11, 03:29 PM
Hell even giving them Good Reflex saves wouldn't be that crazy. Dragons get good BAB, d12 HD, and all good saves. Why not their shamans? And it isn't like it gives them evasion or something which i think all other good Reflex save having classes get. Would just help them shrug off some damage form time to time.

Though at the same time, giving them all of that with those bonus feats and aura upgrade would probably be a little too unbalancing. Would have to see it played to really know for sure. Though taking away the Cha mod to aura bonus by itself would probably make all the rest settle nicely. Ugh, always so much to think about in homebrew land.

Grod_The_Giant
2017-02-11, 04:03 PM
I mean, what's your balance point here?

artimus261
2017-02-11, 04:22 PM
Hard to say honestly. I've been a DM for a long time but never quite had the chance to really see what high level games are like for this reason or that. I tend to wing it and just go with what feels appropriate, gauging the kind of stuff the other classes seem to get. With the bonus feats involved a dragon shaman could walk away with another 5 natural armor and when paired with the +3 they already get thats the equivalent of a full-plate that stacks with whatever else they are already wearing. Or by 8th they can even fly indefinitely, only 3 levels behind sorcerers and wizards and on top of it obtain a bunch of feats to make them powerful aerial combatants like hover and flyby attack. Maybe none of that accounts for their weaknesses but I think pairing that with the full BAB, d12 HD, and good Ref they become a very solid class. I mean even seeing d12, Good BAB, and all good saves is a damn impressive place to be for a class.

Nifft
2017-02-11, 05:27 PM
I'd suggest stealing whatever class features you think are good and slapping them on the Dragonfire Adept, rather than trying to make minor tweaks to a mostly worthless class.

You could probably even make it a feat:

Dragon Shaman
Prerequsites: Dragontouched (DrM), Draconic Aura (DrM), breath weapon, lesser invocation class feature, character level 6

Benefit: Pick one type of dragon (chromatic or metallic), which meets the following restrictions:
- Your alignment is within one step of this type of dragon; and
- Your breath weapon can deal the same type of energy damage as this type of dragon.
This is your Dragon Totem.

You can immediately trade one Lesser Invocation known for the Dragon Shaman's class features, including:
- Touch of Vitality, including the higher-level status removal when you are higher-level.
- When you use your Dragon Totem's energy type as a breath weapon, roll d10s instead of d6s for damage.
- You gain another two Draconic Auras.
- You gain resistance 10 to the damage type of your Dragon Totem's breath weapon. If you are level 9, this increases to resistance 20. If you are level 12, you instead gain immunity to this damage type.
- Commune with Dragon Spirit (Sp): At 14th level, you gain the ability to contact your dragon totem directly to ask questions of it. This is the equivalent of casting a commune spell, except that it has no material component, focus, or XP cost and allows only one question per three class levels. After using this ability, you cannot use it again for seven days.

The total number of Invocations you know is forever reduced by one.

artimus261
2017-02-11, 06:09 PM
Well I do like the Dragonfire Adept but the classes are inherently different. The last thing I'd be as a dragonfire adept is a frontline melee tank, regardless of all the tricks and techniques the adept gets. It's kinda like saying i shouldn't try to make a hexblade and just be a warlock. Nothin's ever gonna shake my love of the drag sham ;P

Grod_The_Giant
2017-02-11, 09:22 PM
Hard to say honestly. I've been a DM for a long time but never quite had the chance to really see what high level games are like for this reason or that. I tend to wing it and just go with what feels appropriate, gauging the kind of stuff the other classes seem to get. With the bonus feats involved a dragon shaman could walk away with another 5 natural armor and when paired with the +3 they already get thats the equivalent of a full-plate that stacks with whatever else they are already wearing. Or by 8th they can even fly indefinitely, only 3 levels behind sorcerers and wizards and on top of it obtain a bunch of feats to make them powerful aerial combatants like hover and flyby attack. Maybe none of that accounts for their weaknesses but I think pairing that with the full BAB, d12 HD, and good Ref they become a very solid class. I mean even seeing d12, Good BAB, and all good saves is a damn impressive place to be for a class.
Draconic Feats are pretty good, yeah. I'd maaaybe add the breath weapon tweak I suggested too; it reduces the urge to load up on metabreath feats and means that the one or two breaths you do take wind up being at least vaguely level-appropriate.

redwizard007
2017-02-11, 09:59 PM
Are people seriously suggesting top level HD, BAB, and multiple good Saves on top of other changes? Is there ever going to be any other front line combatant?

Cleric BAB and saves make sense for the class. I see the argument for D12 HP, but not sure I can go all the way there. D10 feels right to me. The adjustments to breath weapon at d6/level and limiting feat stacking make sense, and the bonus feats along the dragon theme feel right. It's a nice list actually. Stop trying to bring these guys to high and settle for what they are, a neat niche class.

artimus261
2017-02-11, 10:48 PM
Are people seriously suggesting top level HD, BAB, and multiple good Saves on top of other changes? Is there ever going to be any other front line combatant?

Cleric BAB and saves make sense for the class. I see the argument for D12 HP, but not sure I can go all the way there. D10 feels right to me. The adjustments to breath weapon at d6/level and limiting feat stacking make sense, and the bonus feats along the dragon theme feel right. It's a nice list actually. Stop trying to bring these guys to high and settle for what they are, a neat niche class.

Thing is I'm not really that on board with the breath scaling faster and the Reflex thing was honestly just me kinda thinking aloud, erm, in text, whatever, I ended up shooting my own idea down real quick. I think with the bonus feats, good bab, and d12 hd i think they are a solid class without being too overpowering. Even with that they don't have a lot that really pumps up their melee without a character working on it themselves so I think that at least letting them be accurate in melee in the least they can get. But could also see maybe them keeping their average base attack bonus and maybe getting a free single martial proficiency like the Dread Necromancer from Heroes of Horror. What do you think of that? Cuz I agree I always liked that they weren't meant to be the equivalent of a fighter or barbarian and think their other features get underrated too often. Getting an energy immunity at 9th level, immunity to paralysis and sleep at 4th. Some good stuff, and touch of vitality gets thrown under the bus but being able to do so much with a single standard action still impresses me. Anyway, I've rambled enough, with just those alterations what do you think?

nonsi
2017-02-12, 12:35 AM
Hard to say honestly. I've been a DM for a long time but never quite had the chance to really see what high level games are like for this reason or that. I tend to wing it and just go with what feels appropriate, gauging the kind of stuff the other classes seem to get. With the bonus feats involved a dragon shaman could walk away with another 5 natural armor and when paired with the +3 they already get thats the equivalent of a full-plate that stacks with whatever else they are already wearing. Or by 8th they can even fly indefinitely, only 3 levels behind sorcerers and wizards and on top of it obtain a bunch of feats to make them powerful aerial combatants like hover and flyby attack. Maybe none of that accounts for their weaknesses but I think pairing that with the full BAB, d12 HD, and good Ref they become a very solid class. I mean even seeing d12, Good BAB, and all good saves is a damn impressive place to be for a class.

GtG is always full of inspiring ideas to draw from, so I'll comment my impression of his suggestions.
- Full BAB and a d12 HD seems solid to me. With that, you don't really need good Reflex saves to be OK. You could have them develop claws and bite (and maybe even tail), and restrict full BAB to natural weapons - that way they're less likely to compete fullmelees in martial prowess.
- You could push breath weapon damage up, but I wouldn't go beyond 3/4 level. With your suggested bonus feats that's enough.
- I'm also in favor of the maxed-out skills suggestion. It's an iconic association with your totem dragon.
- Auras: High levels are not the problem, when some of your teammates are T1. Your only concern should be the low levels. If you cap Charisma bonus to auras at 1/2 DS level, you're eliminating that imbalance. I wouldn't give them all from the get go mainly because at lower levels it would make them overshadow their teammates, and level advancement would feel less rewarding.
- Supernatural and spell-like are things I'd stay away from - mostly because of probable imbalance between the different totems and because it's not required given all the above.

You could also leave Wings to feats altogether and grant the ability to assume full draconic body X rounds per day at 19th. You could argue that Red Dragon shamans would gain the advantage of huge size over the others, but fire damage resistance is the most common, so that's a nice offset.

One aspect where the DS always felt lacking for me in embodying the Dragon was draconic senses. I'll leave that aspect for you to decide upon and figure out.

Nifft
2017-02-12, 11:39 AM
Are people seriously suggesting top level HD, BAB, and multiple good Saves on top of other changes? Is there ever going to be any other front line combatant?

Even with all that they still kinda suck at front-line melee combat.

What do they do to boost their attack rolls?

How do they boost their melee damage?

What makes them tougher than a Warrior?

The thing that makes a Totemist viable as a front-line melee combatant is his large number of natural attacks.

The thing that makes a Warblade viable as a front-line melee combatant is her Maneuvers, which hit for significantly more damage than a regular Full Attack could.

The thing that makes a Duskblade viable as a front-line melee combatant is his spells & spell channeling ability.

The thing that makes a PsyWar viable as a front-line melee combatant is her powers, including both offense-boosting and defense-boosting.

The Dragon Shaman seems to get NONE of those things. It's a bad class because it has no features which help it perform in the combat niche where it's allegedly supposed to perform.

redwizard007
2017-02-12, 11:50 AM
After kicking this around overnight, I have some more consistent thoughts with some reasoning to support them...

Saves: don't touch them. 2 good saves are plenty for almost any class. Also, while dragons might have all good saves, their reflex save will always suffer due to a poor Dex. A problem DSs can mitigate.

HD: my personal opinion here is to leave them unchanged, but I appear to be in the minority. Going from d10 to d12 steps on the Barbarian a bit, but it does fit thematically and it's a rather small adjustment. Do it.

BAB: unless you are willing to nerf significant other class abilities, don't go to full BAB. We already have a buffing, healing, tough, fairly effective combatant with a breath weapon that, even unmodified, is not unsubstantial. Is he on par with a cleric or wizard? No, but he holds his own with any other melee class without many adjustments.

Breath weapon: it's not broke. Don't fix it.

Auras: fine as they are. Adding HALF the DS's Cha modifier is a nice boost, but the full Cha mod would be to much.

Skills: a small boost is fine, but don't go crazy here. They already get free Skill Focus 3 times (late in 2 cases,) and have an Aura to buff a few skills. Is full ranks for free really the way to go? What about letting Skill Focus apply to all your totem dragon skills with each iteration. +2 at 2nd, 8th and 16th wouldn't be to shabby.

Transformation to a dragon: no. It's not a bloody druid or wizard. You don't worship what you are. As a capstone, this would be a neat power, but it completely blows the class's fluff out of the water.

Draconic senses: like a +2 to spot and listen? Maybe, but I think not. Clairvoyance/Clairaudience to the area around the totem dragon could be neat though.

Bonus Feats: the original proposal you floated on feats looks perfect. It's a small but noticable boost and fits perfectly thematically.

Weapon Proficiencies: going full martial weapons wouldn't be out of the question, but a single martial proficiency, like you suggested, might be better... What about a short list of martial proficiencies? Lance, longsword, greatsword (or axe?) Or possibly all 2 handed martial melee weapons. I guess it depends on what theme you prefer. Are DSs fighting with dragons, against opposing dragons, or neither.

Armor proficiency: leave it at medium or less. It helps balance things with the other martial classes.

redwizard007
2017-02-12, 11:58 AM
Even with all that they still kinda suck at front-line melee combat.

What do they do to boost their attack rolls?

How do they boost their melee damage?

What makes them tougher than a Warrior?

The thing that makes a Totemist viable as a front-line melee combatant is his large number of natural attacks.

The thing that makes a Warblade viable as a front-line melee combatant is her Maneuvers, which hit for significantly more damage than a regular Full Attack could.

The thing that makes a Duskblade viable as a front-line melee combatant is his spells & spell channeling ability.

The thing that makes a PsyWar viable as a front-line melee combatant is her powers, including both offense-boosting and defense-boosting.

The Dragon Shaman seems to get NONE of those things. It's a bad class because it has no features which help it perform in the combat niche where it's allegedly supposed to perform.

I think we are working at cross purposes here. I have no intention of making the DS the equal of any of those classes as a front line combatant. If that is what OP wants then the class needs some offensive options that haven't been mentioned at all yet. What I have been working towards is a fun to play class with abilities that tie into the fluff the class is based around. A class that has some neat abilities and can support the party in a number of ways, but isn't the equal of any of the classes designed to dominate those roles. You know, balanced.

artimus261
2017-02-12, 12:33 PM
After kicking this around overnight, I have some more consistent thoughts with some reasoning to support them...

Saves: don't touch them. 2 good saves are plenty for almost any class. Also, while dragons might have all good saves, their reflex save will always suffer due to a poor Dex. A problem DSs can mitigate.

HD: my personal opinion here is to leave them unchanged, but I appear to be in the minority. Going from d10 to d12 steps on the Barbarian a bit, but it does fit thematically and it's a rather small adjustment. Do it.

BAB: unless you are willing to nerf significant other class abilities, don't go to full BAB. We already have a buffing, healing, tough, fairly effective combatant with a breath weapon that, even unmodified, is not unsubstantial. Is he on par with a cleric or wizard? No, but he holds his own with any other melee class without many adjustments.

Breath weapon: it's not broke. Don't fix it.

Auras: fine as they are. Adding HALF the DS's Cha modifier is a nice boost, but the full Cha mod would be to much.

Skills: a small boost is fine, but don't go crazy here. They already get free Skill Focus 3 times (late in 2 cases,) and have an Aura to buff a few skills. Is full ranks for free really the way to go? What about letting Skill Focus apply to all your totem dragon skills with each iteration. +2 at 2nd, 8th and 16th wouldn't be to shabby.

Transformation to a dragon: no. It's not a bloody druid or wizard. You don't worship what you are. As a capstone, this would be a neat power, but it completely blows the class's fluff out of the water.

Draconic senses: like a +2 to spot and listen? Maybe, but I think not. Clairvoyance/Clairaudience to the area around the totem dragon could be neat though.

Bonus Feats: the original proposal you floated on feats looks perfect. It's a small but noticable boost and fits perfectly thematically.

Weapon Proficiencies: going full martial weapons wouldn't be out of the question, but a single martial proficiency, like you suggested, might be better... What about a short list of martial proficiencies? Lance, longsword, greatsword (or axe?) Or possibly all 2 handed martial melee weapons. I guess it depends on what theme you prefer. Are DSs fighting with dragons, against opposing dragons, or neither.

Armor proficiency: leave it at medium or less. It helps balance things with the other martial classes.

I'm glad you understand what I'm going for. They aren't meant to ever have the full energy damage of a sorc's spell even of just one energy type, I do like your thoughts on the skill focuses and instead of even making them the feat maybe just make them a bonus to all of the totem skills with a +3/+6/+9 bonus, or maybe +1/+3/+5, since they could still at that point pick up the focus for one of them if they really wanted(better bluffing or hiding or whatever). Think a huge list of martial weapons might be a bit much since they worship raw natural power but I think one would definitely be solid, "this is my greatsword, there are many like it but this one is mine blah blah blah" I opted out of actually adding the Dragonhunter, Dragonfoe, and Dragonbane to the list I made since I tried to stay away from the dragonshamans fight dragons concept but for a DM or player who wanted it so they could definitely be included. I think the d12 does put them on par with a barb and knight hp wise but the barb has a constant flat DR and a way to even add bonus hp at times which i think keeps him tougher and then the knight has that hefty heavy armor and shield keeping them harder to hit, all in all i think this works as a simple and effective dragon shaman fix that stays within their theme and doesnt try to make them something they aren't. I still think with their limited offensive and defensive abilities that full bab might not overdo it but i could see how it would turn them into something they werent meant to be so im gonna go with you on that <3

redwizard007
2017-02-12, 12:45 PM
I'm glad you understand what I'm going for. They aren't meant to ever have the full energy damage of a sorc's spell even of just one energy type, I do like your thoughts on the skill focuses and instead of even making them the feat maybe just make them a bonus to all of the totem skills with a +3/+6/+9 bonus, or maybe +1/+3/+5, since they could still at that point pick up the focus for one of them if they really wanted(better bluffing or hiding or whatever). Think a huge list of martial weapons might be a bit much since they worship raw natural power but I think one would definitely be solid, "this is my greatsword, there are many like it but this one is mine blah blah blah" I opted out of actually adding the Dragonhunter, Dragonfoe, and Dragonbane to the list I made since I tried to stay away from the dragonshamans fight dragons concept but for a DM or player who wanted it so they could definitely be included. I think the d12 does put them on par with a barb and knight hp wise but the barb has a constant flat DR and a way to even add bonus hp at times which i think keeps him tougher and then the knight has that hefty heavy armor and shield keeping them harder to hit, all in all i think this works as a simple and effective dragon shaman fix that stays within their theme and doesnt try to make them something they aren't. I still think with their limited offensive and defensive abilities that full bab might not overdo it but i could see how it would turn them into something they werent meant to be so im gonna go with you on that <3

I'm glad I was on the same page with you. Trying to look at this class from the perspective of DM, player, and party member to balance things was tough because it isn't amazing at anything, but it's OK at plenty. As a front line combatant it will still have weaknesses, but pair it with another melee type and things could get wild. I see this revised DS as similar to a Paladin in effectiveness and a melee Bard in play style.

You have a decent AOE attack every 1d4 rounds that will eat mooks. A nice heal. Some solid buffs with minimal action cost. You will miss some attacks, but with adding a martial weapon proficiency, you will deal more damage when you do hit. The skill boosts are gravy to support non-combat issues. It should be fun. Are you playing this or DMing it?

artimus261
2017-02-12, 01:27 PM
I'm the DM and trying to make sure a player gets the options she deserves. Some last minute changes in making are to the skill focuses and to the bonus feat list. Adding Kiai Shout, Intimidating Strike, and Skill Focus(dragon shaman class skill) to the list. And as for the in class skill bonuses making it so that at each interval the player selects one that gets a +3 and the other two receive +1. In this way they still get a nice boost at the early level to the one they favor and by late game they can either have all three at +5, one at +7 one at +5 one at +3, or two at +3 and one at an impressive +9. Feel it should be pretty good no matter which way they choose. Yeah think they serve all kinds of uses in a party but because they don't out perform any other class in any of the areas they get overlooked and underrated.

redwizard007
2017-02-12, 01:30 PM
Nice job. I have a player that loves Dragon Shamans for the fluff alone. I'll have to see what he thinks of your changes. As a DM, I'd like to see it in action.

artimus261
2017-02-12, 02:27 PM
Ooooh I'd love to hear how it handles :) I still won't know for some time. And I have to mention about my last update, I think being able to get +9 on a skill might be a little much. It's true that they only get 2+int but when you consider that if that player really focused on that check youre looking at epic level checks by level 20 or even sooner. For instance a dragon shaman with 16 Cha wants to pump their bluff as much as possible and keeps it at max ranks. Difficult for sure but not out of the question. They pick +3 bluff at each interval and even get skill focus bluff as one of their free feats. By level 20 you're looking at a character who, ignoring magic items and ability point changes, has 23 ranks, a +3 mod, a +3 from the feat, and +9 from her class. Throw on the +5 from the aura and that's a grand total of +43 bluff, I mean who even need the roll at that point :U ... A little nuts I think. I mean sure that's the one area that shaman will excel in but damn. Probably gonna just give them +5 to one at each interval and they won't be feats so if they WANT the extra +3 they can still pick up the focus as a bonus feat.

artimus261
2017-02-12, 03:26 PM
Also as some last minute comments I figured I'd include this. All of the draconic feats that gave mention of when the player casts a spell and the like I avoided since the dragon shaman obviously doesn't have spells. I did however have another ruling in mind for these that would make them viable but felt it required too much explanation but what the hell here goes.

For all of these I thought that maybe the breath weapon of the dragon shaman would be the action that counted as a spell being cast, this way every time he used his breath weapon he could garner other effects for a bit, helping him ease the pain of having to wait for the bloody thing. As for the spell level of the breath weapon I felt that 1/2 it's damage die was appropriate since he isn't a caster and it felt like giving him the full potency of a sorcerer with these feats without the limitation of spells per day was a little much though other DMs might feel differently.

Anyway for an example the feat Draconic Armor. A dragon shaman with this feat and a 6d6 breath weapon would suddenly gain DR 3/magic for a round after just using the breath weapon. This would help him keep other auras active that might help the party better than his DR/magic aura. Draconic vigor would even let them heal a small amount every time they used their breath weapon, though ruling that it needs targets might be needed. On top of this these allow him to gain effects without adding actions to achieve them which i felt was interesting. Suddenly with Draconic Claw a dragonshaman could move up to a target, breath his weapon in their face and still get a claw attack as a swift action. This opens up all kinds of avenues for the dragsham. The lineages could be added as well, though again they would require special attention to make them convert to the dragsham properly(all of them are in Dragon Magic for reference). Another example would be a dragsham with Draconic Arcane Grace. By 'losing' their breath weapon and forcing the waiting period for it they could gain a bonus on all of their saves for 1 round equal to 1/2 the number of his breath weapons damage die.

There are a few I thought deserved special mention for what could be done with them due to their otherwise inapplicable effects:

Draconic Legacy(Races of Dragon): Granting the dragon shaman these spells as 1/day spell-like abilities?

Draconic Power: Increases breath DC by 1 and the dragon shaman is treated as being 1 level higher for the purpose of determining the effects of his Breath Weapon and his Touch of Vitality.

Applicable Feats: Draconic Arcane Grace(Races of Dragon), Draconic Armor(Dragon Magic), Draconic Flight(Races of Dragon), Draconic Persuasion(Races of Dragon), Draconic Presence(Races of Dragon), Draconic Vigor(Dragon Magic)

Also added a few feats like Alertness and Persuasive and such to the list on top. The first post is now completely edited to the most recent of changes and fixes.

Finally if a DM feels that the Dragonhunter feats(in Draconomicon) fit the dragon shaman in their campaign or for a particular character they could be added as well.

Grod_The_Giant
2017-02-12, 04:35 PM
1d6/2 levels is absolutely pathetic damage, is the thing. Anything meaningfully impacted by 1.5 damage/level, once or twice a combat, wasn't a threat to begin with. A 10th level Dragon Shaman would do 5d6 with his breath weapon, averaging out to 17.5 damage. You're probably doing more than that with a single melee attack. A random selection of CR 5 monsters clocks in at an average of 45 hp, meaning that when yo do your thing, your special fancy dragon-y thing, the thing you took the class to do... you're spending your action to wipe out about a quarter of a mook's health. And this, you get probably once or twice per combat.

But anyway, I do like the idea of letting your breath weapon activate spell-requiring feats. That's neat.

artimus261
2017-02-12, 04:58 PM
Well I think considering that the breath weapon can hit a lot more than one target per use, ignores targets potential DR, and potentially making use of creatures vulnerabilities Im not sure it needs to be as good as the other things. With everything else they can do in a single class I think they sit comfortably in between basically every role a party could even have, could maybe see it being changed to d8s instead of d6s but that would be about it

redwizard007
2017-02-12, 05:01 PM
1d6/2 levels is absolutely pathetic damage, is the thing. Anything meaningfully impacted by 1.5 damage/level, once or twice a combat, wasn't a threat to begin with. A 10th level Dragon Shaman would do 5d6 with his breath weapon, averaging out to 17.5 damage. You're probably doing more than that with a single melee attack. A random selection of CR 5 monsters clocks in at an average of 45 hp, meaning that when yo do your thing, your special fancy dragon-y thing, the thing you took the class to do... you're spending your action to wipe out about a quarter of a mook's health. And this, you get probably once or twice per combat.

But anyway, I do like the idea of letting your breath weapon activate spell-requiring feats. That's neat.

I think we just found something we are 100% in agreement on. 😀

As far as the damage for the breath weapon. It is what it is. It will never be a one hit one kill sort of attack. At least not with level appropriate challenges. It will be a nice area of effect for crowd control. With a few feats it might be more effective. It's better than smite but not on par with pouncing charges.

artimus261
2017-02-12, 05:09 PM
I only just now realized i included feats that require spot and listen ranks and the dragon shaman somehow doesnt get those :U feel like an idiot, I think I'm gonna let them have those two, i mean, come on they have one of the smallest lists ever and being wanderers i feel like they should get that, really only makes it even harder for them to pick where to put the damn points

redwizard007
2017-02-12, 05:16 PM
U could always go to 4+int skill points.

artimus261
2017-02-12, 05:24 PM
I had thought about that but with the classes ability to kind of pad their checks with the right auras and those skill boosts (and the skill focuses if the player wants as the free bonus feats) I feel like its appropriate to have them either stretch their skill points thin or dump them where they really feel the need. But with that slight change and a free Blind-fight, Keen-Eared Scout, Alertness, and Hear the Unseen they can become very skilled at detecting hidden combatants and the like. Or the draconic senses feat path which ends up giving them a large bonus to those and low-light vision, darkvision, and blindsense. Either way i feel this lets them become a highly aware support character. Think if they want to spend some of those all important skill points on listen and spot they should be able to

artimus261
2017-02-12, 05:39 PM
Wow. Reading through the Lineages I definitely feel like they should be made available to the Dragon Shamans in question. For instnace a level 8 dragon shaman with a blue totem dragon could begin to create two orbs of lightning as a standard action by forcing the cool down for his breath weapon without using it. Ending up being able to summon 5 orbs at a pretty steady rate that each deal 1d6+ his Cha mod in electricity.

Or another example is the silver dragon lineage allowing the dragon shaman to create paralyzing bursts at a whim. Though with the DCs being what they are makes me think maybe these and the other breath-triggering feats should let the dragon shaman use his whole number of damage die as his spell level. Not sure.

I suppose the Dragon Shaman having to deal with cool downs for these abilities helps offset the fact that they can perpetually perform these tricks at the maximum efficiency as opposed to the sorc who can only do so much with them but never has to wait...

redwizard007
2017-02-12, 06:27 PM
Wow. Reading through the Lineages I definitely feel like they should be made available to the Dragon Shamans in question. For instnace a level 8 dragon shaman with a blue totem dragon could begin to create two orbs of lightning as a standard action by forcing the cool down for his breath weapon without using it. Ending up being able to summon 5 orbs at a pretty steady rate that each deal 1d6+ his Cha mod in electricity.

Or another example is the silver dragon lineage allowing the dragon shaman to create paralyzing bursts at a whim. Though with the DCs being what they are makes me think maybe these and the other breath-triggering feats should let the dragon shaman use his whole number of damage die as his spell level. Not sure.

I suppose the Dragon Shaman having to deal with cool downs for these abilities helps offset the fact that they can perpetually perform these tricks at the maximum efficiency as opposed to the sorc who can only do so much with them but never has to wait...

I'm not familiar with the lineages.bwhat book are they in?

artimus261
2017-02-12, 06:31 PM
Dragon Magic, gives each type of shaman a pretty handy little technique

artimus261
2017-02-12, 10:24 PM
There, think the top post has been completely edited to perfection <3

NomGarret
2017-02-22, 11:59 AM
There are a couple fixes I've considered. Touch of Vitality comes online at level 1, with remove conditions coming at level 6. The amount of healing remains the same, so the DS isn't exactly flush, but they can remove blindness in a pinch at an appropriate level. The breath weapon also comes online sooner - 1D6 at 2nd level if you're keeping the same progression. Neither of these changes are intended to be power level fixes, just meant to distinguish it at the early levels when it can appear like a poor barbarian.

I like a lot of what you have already. The bonus feats are all nice touches. Good work!

Deepbluediver
2017-02-24, 02:11 PM
I don't have all my notes with me at the moment, so I'll have to double-check some of this when I get home, but when I was redoing the Dragon Shaman I definitely DID want to make him a frontline fighter. I believe I gave the class a d12 HD, full BAB, and a few Fighter Bonus Feats (I'll mention that in terms of balance, most of my melee classes get seriously amped up), plus a scaling breath weapon.

For flavor and customization though, I took inspiration from the Dragon Disciple PRC (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/dragonDisciple.htm). That class is, on it's own, fairly underwhelming and I don't think I've ever seen anyone actually use it, but I like the idea of stat bonuses, plus some other stuff.

So a DS can pick at level 2 and every couple of levels thereafter one Draconic Adaptation. It includes stuff like.

Wings of the Dragon- you gain wings and a flight speed
Claws of the Dragon- you gain a Str bonus and a monk's unarmed damage
Scales of the Dragon- you gain a Con bonus and natural armor
Eyes of the Dragon- you gain a Wis bonus and darkvision
Shadow of the Dragon- you gain a Cha bonus and I forget what else
etc.

And then for a Capstone I have Form of the Dragon, which lets you turn into a dragon for 10 minutes once per day, which increases your size, lowers the cooldown on your breath weapons, gives you some extra attack options, and I think includes Frightful Presence.

Lionheart2000
2017-04-04, 10:26 AM
testing my ability to post