Level 15 fighter vs level 15 wizard.

[NecroDancer]

Me vs my friend (Squiddish)

I'm a divination wizard and all I know is that Squiddish is some type of fighter.

The rules.
Flat arena
Combatants start within 60 ft of each other
All UA allowed
No multiclassing or magic items
Near infinite money to buy equipment
Exiting the arena was a forfeit (entering the ethereal plane didn't count).
No time limit.

How the battle was.
Squiddish was an arcane archer and won initiative. Squiddish also had a horse. Squiddish was able to move 120 feet each turn with his horse while non of my spells could reach him (I should have bought a horse). Squiddish could literally deal only one damage a turn while I could no reach him. In the end I planeshifted away to avoid death by a thousand cuts (Squiddish had a range of 800 ft). The fighter won that battle because I essentially forfeited.

Moral of the Story: Wizards buy a horse or learn phantom steed, or at least cast forcecage on yourself and then leomunds tiny hut in order to longrest and switch out spells.

Squiddish if there is anything else you wanted to add feel free and congrats on the win that was some A+ planning.

[SharkForce]

sounds mostly like a lack of planning.

with infinite funds, you probably should have had a simulacrum. and some minions controlled with planar binding (probably invisible stalkers, preferably buffed with mage armour, but not strictly necessary). possibly a small army of skeleton archers or created undead as well. also, you should have had a backup clone (so death isn't really a concern for you).

then there's this mysterious arena that is apparently infinitely large (i mean, if he's actually able to continue using his superior range and you can never close, the arena must be absolutely ridiculous in size). because quite frankly, if he was 600 feet away, that sounds rather like you'd be outside of any arena i've ever heard of. literally. i mean, the colosseum arena area was under 300 feet in it's largest dimension. in order for the 600 foot range he had to be relevant, you would need an area 2 football fields long and you would have to be standing at one end. in order for him to get that far away while you're still in the middle, the arena would need to be over 4 football fields long.

almost any invisibility spell should have made it fairly simple for you to be able to approach without him knowing where you were, exactly. almost any sort of cloud or darkness or illusion spell should have enabled you to block his line of sight to you.

depending on the exact rules, you could have easily scattered glyphs of warding that trigger all kinds of interesting spells (they can trigger when someone *sees* the glyph, even).

you could have brought along a number of major images, which you could use to make it basically impossible to target you.

to close distance (or, in an alternate scenario, to create distance) you or your simulacrum could have used dimension door to get within range. one of you would need to spend your action on it, of course... but the other is free to cast a spell. any spell you know, pretty much.

various wall spells could have easily prevented him from being able to target you as well.

it sounds like he prepared, and you did not.

[Specter]

Another controversial thread? Oh great. Wizard wins. Mext?

[Jamgretter]

Another controversial thread? Oh great. Wizard wins. Mext?

Uh oh dude, someone came in and didn't read your post. Maybe the title is a little inaccurate? Necrodancer is telling a story, not asking a question.

[Specter]

Uh oh dude, someone came in and didn't read your post. Maybe the title is a little inaccurate? Necrodancer is telling a story, not asking a question.

Just wait until it reaches 100 posts and derails four times before that.

[NecroDancer]

So the arena was 1000 by 1000, and yes I totally didn't prepare. Also we didn't have "Infinite" gold (we couldn't show up with 500 store bought rhinos and cause a stampede). Also the arcane archer has a power called seeking arrow that lets his arrow target a person he had seen a minute ago so that ruled out invisibility/illusions. Also I contemplated using a power to block line of sight but even with disadvantage he still got +12 to hit and could move away faster than I could run at him. Also in order to make the match "more even" the only spell I was aloud to have up was mage armor (becuase the wizard always wins if he has a simulacrum and 23 glyphs of warding). Personally I have no idea why I didn't choose simulacrum possibly becuase I'm use to low level campaigns and I'm not good choosing high level spells (I honestly though maze was a better choice).

Looking back I should have had leominds tiny hut prepared or simulacrum. I also did not exspect the horse to show up. I probably would have one if we had multiple days/planes to hunt each other down.

If we had multiple days to prepare for the fight I would have gone necromancer and unleashed a small horde onto him (as annoying/fun as minions are).

In the end it came down to tactics and readiness and there I was outmatched.

EDIT: i feel like I would have done better if I was a warlock or a sorcerer but that's just me nitpicking.

[Foxhound438]

*reads the title*

THE CASTER

*reads the actual details*

small arena where the fighter closes in one turn? fighter wins then.

[busterswd]

So the arena was 1000 by 1000, and yes I totally didn't prepare. Also we didn't have "Infinite" gold (we couldn't show up with 500 store bought rhinos and cause a stampede). Also the arcane archer has a power called seeking arrow that lets his arrow target a person he had seen a minute ago so that ruled out invisibility/illusions. Also I contemplated using a power to block line of sight but even with disadvantage he still got +12 to hit and could move away faster than I could run at him. Also in order to make the match "more even" the only spell I was aloud to have up was mage armor (becuase the wizard always wins if he has a simulacrum and 23 glyphs of warding). Personally I have no idea why I didn't choose simulacrum possibly becuase I'm use to low level campaigns and I'm not good choosing high level spells (I honestly though maze was a better choice).

Looking back I should have had leominds tiny hut prepared or simulacrum. I also did not exspect the horse to show up. I probably would have one if we had multiple days/planes to hunt each other down.

If we had multiple days to prepare for the fight I would have gone necromancer and unleashed a small horde onto him (as annoying/fun as minions are).

In the end it came down to tactics and readiness and there I was outmatched.

EDIT: i feel like I would have done better if I was a warlock or a sorcerer but that's just me nitpicking.



This sounds like you didn't know the rules, not even the class.

Arcane archer can use the seeking arrow *twice* per short rest. It also explictly doesn't ignore full cover. It still requires you to make a ranged attack, and if you're behind full cover, he can't make one. Considering the range that he was at, it wouldn't be hard to make full cover.

Also the whole caster vs martial supremacy relies on knowledge and preparation; you weren't knowledgeable or prepared enough, so not that surprising you lost.





*reads the actual details*

small arena where the fighter closes in one turn? fighter wins then.

You didn't read the actual details, because that's exactly the opposite of what happened.

[Specter]

*reads the title*

THE CASTER

*reads the actual details*

small arena where the fighter closes in one turn? fighter wins then.

Really? Really?

No Misty Step? No Blink? No Greater Invisibility? No Teleport? No Forcecage to trap the monster (fighter) forever? These are just the mobility spells
I always root for the brawlers, but the resourceful guys always win. Yes, even in a cube arena.

[SharkForce]

So the arena was 1000 by 1000, and yes I totally didn't prepare. Also we didn't have "Infinite" gold (we couldn't show up with 500 store bought rhinos and cause a stampede). Also the arcane archer has a power called seeking arrow that lets his arrow target a person he had seen a minute ago so that ruled out invisibility/illusions. Also I contemplated using a power to block line of sight but even with disadvantage he still got +12 to hit and could move away faster than I could run at him. Also in order to make the match "more even" the only spell I was aloud to have up was mage armor (becuase the wizard always wins if he has a simulacrum and 23 glyphs of warding). Personally I have no idea why I didn't choose simulacrum possibly becuase I'm use to low level campaigns and I'm not good choosing high level spells (I honestly though maze was a better choice).

Looking back I should have had leominds tiny hut prepared or simulacrum. I also did not exspect the horse to show up. I probably would have one if we had multiple days/planes to hunt each other down.

If we had multiple days to prepare for the fight I would have gone necromancer and unleashed a small horde onto him (as annoying/fun as minions are).

In the end it came down to tactics and readiness and there I was outmatched.

EDIT: i feel like I would have done better if I was a warlock or a sorcerer but that's just me nitpicking.

ah. so in addition to poor preparation, there was a handicap. still, mostly poor preparation is the reason for the loss.

[Gignere]

Me vs my friend (Squiddish)

I'm a divination wizard and all I know is that Squiddish is some type of fighter.

The rules.
Flat arena
Combatants start within 60 ft of each other
All UA allowed
No multiclassing or magic items
Near infinite money to buy equipment
Exiting the arena was a forfeit (entering the ethereal plane didn't count).
No time limit.

How the battle was.
Squiddish was an arcane archer and won initiative. Squiddish also had a horse. Squiddish was able to move 120 feet each turn with his horse while non of my spells could reach him (I should have bought a horse). Squiddish could literally deal only one damage a turn while I could no reach him. In the end I planeshifted away to avoid death by a thousand cuts (Squiddish had a range of 800 ft). The fighter won that battle because I essentially forfeited.

Moral of the Story: Wizards buy a horse or learn phantom steed, or at least cast forcecage on yourself and then leomunds tiny hut in order to longrest and switch out spells.

Squiddish if there is anything else you wanted to add feel free and congrats on the win that was some A+ planning.

Why didn't you portent his initiative? Unimaginable that you happened to roll 3 good portent rolls.

This is just poor play on your part.

[Squiddish]

Arcane archer can use the seeking arrow *twice* per short rest. It also explictly doesn't ignore full cover. It still requires you to make a ranged attack, and if you're behind full cover, he can't make one. Considering the range that he was at, it wouldn't be hard to make full cover.


A) At fifteenth level, they actually can use it once every minute.

B) The seeking arrow was just to tell me where he was (since I still had line of sight, even if he was invisible) and then I used it to target my normal arrows.

C) I had sharpshooter, and full cover pretty much just means "No line of sight" or rather, no straight line can be drawn from me to him. That would only really be possible if he went prone.

I'll note that this was heavily luck based, if I hadn't won initiative he could've just cast forcecage and that would be the end of me. My strategy was Arcane Arrow (shadow)+trip attack (from martial adept) and then run away with my horse so he couldn't get within visual range of me. If that arrow had missed I could potentially have survived, but it would burn up a lot of my resources.

If he had taken the spell sniper feat he could probably have won.

Side note, many of my arrows were poisoned (not the ones I summoned, of course, but the ones I ended up using were). However, this never came into play since he did quite well on his con saves.

[SharkForce]

full cover means there's a physical obstacle in between. it doesn't mean line of sight. had he cast wall of force, he could have been in full cover, but also fully visible, for example.

also, sharpshooter only negates the benefit of partial cover. it does absolutely nothing for full cover. full cover means the target is completely behind hard cover, and therefore there is no vulnerable point to put an arrow into.

additionally, the seeker arrow isn't going to help much in finding him if he's in a cloud or darkness spell. sure, the seeker arrow can seek him. at best, that gives you a vague location (ie "within that cloud or beyond it... what a surprise, right?).

he just didn't come prepared (i'm particularly disappointed that he had true seeing apparently, and didn't think to take advantage of the ability to see through darkness spells).

[NecroDancer]

Really? Really?

No Misty Step? No Blink? No Greater Invisibility? No Teleport? No Forcecage to trap the monster (fighter) forever? These are just the mobility spells
I always root for the brawlers, but the resourceful guys always win. Yes, even in a cube arena.

Ironically my wizard had all the spells nessecary to stop a melee/grappler build (in fact that's what I was most afraid of).

[coredump]

Well, its easy to be the Monday morning quarterback, but since you did post....


How come he was only doing 1 point of damage?

After the first two, he can only do the Seeker Arrow trick once every 10 rounds (1 minute), and it only works if he has seen you in the preceeding minute.

So any obscurement spell, (invis, greater invis, fog cloud, rope trick, darkness, minor illusion, etc) that you had up for a minute, means no more Seeker Arrows. (Unless you let him see you again.)

How did you guys determine locations? I would have to check to be sure, but I *think* you could close the gap without him getting away.

I am surprised you didn't have any spells with 150' range. That could have ended the fight on turn 1.

Basically, to lose, you really needed to have no movement spells (misty step, fly, dim door, etc) no obscurement/hiding spells (invis, etherealness, etc), no spells with range 150' or farther.
It can happen, but even by blind chance I would have guessed you had at least one or two from the above.

If you are bored enough to type them in, I would be curious to see which spells you chose.

[coredump]

I don't think full cover would have helped. A Seeker Arrow explicitly states it will "go around corners" He would have to be in a solid box to avoid the arrow.

Leomunds Hut would have likely been a waste, you would need to pass dozens of concentration checks while you cast it.



A) At fifteenth level, they actually can use it once every minute.
Yep, but that means only 1 hit per 10 rounds. And you would need to see him in the previous 10 rounds.



B) The seeking arrow was just to tell me where he was (since I still had line of sight, even if he was invisible) and then I used it to target my normal arrows.
Its debateable if you can have 'line of sight' to an invisible person, but I agree with how you guys played it.
But it still only happens once per 10 rounds.
[quote]

[busterswd]

I don't think full cover would have helped. A Seeker Arrow explicitly states it will "go around corners" He would have to be in a solid box to avoid the arrow.


Debateable. RAI I'd agree with you (because the ability would be largely redundant with Sharpshooter if it couldn't hit behind full cover), but RAW, you cannot attack something with full cover except for a spell with an AoE. The description of Seeking Arrow also specifically omits full cover as something the arrow can negate, which is odd, considering it has a failsafe clause in case the target has done something like enclose itself from all possible sides.

Although this is 5e, after all, so you're probably right.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Should've had a Contingency set to trigger Leomund's Tiny Hut, a Crossbow, and an arbitrarily huge amount of ammunition. Almost literally impossible for the Fighter to win in then (since you can just refresh the hut as a ritual).

[Gignere]

Once again he was a diviner with 3 portent dice and he didn't portent the initiative that is nuts. There is no way any class can PvP a diviner just because portents is such cheese when it comes to one v one PvP.

[EKruze]

Exiting the arena was a forfeit (entering the ethereal plane didn't count).


Solid Forcecage traps the Fighter.
Move Earth to build a space underneath the cage.
As you near the end of Forcecage duration, Arcane Gate underneath the cage and Fighter is disqualified when he falls through it.

He's too far away? Seeking Arrow does not ignore Full Cover which is easily created.

[Captain Morgan]

Once again he was a diviner with 3 portent dice and he didn't portent the initiative that is nuts. There is no way any class can PvP a diviner just because portents is such cheese when it comes to one v one PvP.
Yeah that was literally my first thought.

[Dudu]

Yeah that was literally my first thought.

Unless all three rolls were in the 8-12 range...

I would say in 9 of 10 battles, given the same limitations, the wizard would win. You guys had that tenth battle.

Also, wouldn't a domed wall of force ruins the archer strategy? Wall of Force is one of those spells I would have prepared on daily basis anyway.

[Gignere]

Unless all three rolls were in the 8-12 range...

I would say in 9 of 10 battles, given the same limitations, the wizard would win. You guys had that tenth battle.

Also, wouldn't a domed wall of force ruins the archer strategy? Wall of Force is one of those spells I would have prepared on daily basis anyway.

I disagree this seem to be the better player winning against someone who doesn't even know his own class features and that will happen 100/100 times.

[Squiddish]

Once again he was a diviner with 3 portent dice and he didn't portent the initiative that is nuts. There is no way any class can PvP a diviner just because portents is such cheese when it comes to one v one PvP.
1. I had a +5 to initiative
2. He rolled rather well on the portents

Solid Forcecage traps the Fighter.
Move Earth to build a space underneath the cage.
As you near the end of Forcecage duration, Arcane Gate underneath the cage and Fighter is disqualified when he falls through it.

He's too far away? Seeking Arrow does not ignore Full Cover which is easily created.

1. Forcecage would have been the end of me, there's no question about that. I managed to blind him, trip him, and get out of the range of his spells in the first two turns.
2. I can move. He makes a wall of force, or stone, or whatever, and I move around it. Or, alternately, he makes a wall surrounding him and then I set up an ambush (+10 to stealth)


Unless all three rolls were in the 8-12 range...

I would say in 9 of 10 battles, given the same limitations, the wizard would win. You guys had that tenth battle.

Also, wouldn't a domed wall of force ruins the archer strategy? Wall of Force is one of those spells I would have prepared on daily basis anyway.
1. I think they were.
2. It was mostly luck, I also had a minmaxed build. Plus, there are a lot of different types of fighters out there.
3. It would, but he'd be stuck in a dome for an arbitrary amount of time and I would still be well out of his range, with plenty of time to prepare.


I disagree this seem to be the better player winning against someone who doesn't even know his own class features and that will happen 100/100 times.

We were both mostly new to playing these classes. I had never played a ranged fighter/rogue/ranger before, he had never played a wizard before. He also had to prepare for several possibilities: He needed to be strong against ranged fighters, grapplers, battlemasters, and all sorts of other things.
He would have almost certainly won if I had gone with a melee fighter or horseless archer.

[Gignere]

1. I had a +5 to initiative
2. He rolled rather well on the portents


1. Forcecage would have been the end of me, there's no question about that. I managed to blind him, trip him, and get out of the range of his spells in the first two turns.
2. I can move. He makes a wall of force, or stone, or whatever, and I move around it. Or, alternately, he makes a wall surrounding him and then I set up an ambush (+10 to stealth)


1. I think they were.
2. It was mostly luck, I also had a minmaxed build. Plus, there are a lot of different types of fighters out there.
3. It would, but he'd be stuck in a dome for an arbitrary amount of time and I would still be well out of his range, with plenty of time to prepare.



We were both mostly new to playing these classes. I had never played a ranged fighter/rogue/ranger before, he had never played a wizard before. He also had to prepare for several possibilities: He needed to be strong against ranged fighters, grapplers, battlemasters, and all sorts of other things.
He would have almost certainly won if I had gone with a melee fighter or horseless archer.

At level 15 my PvP build for a diviner would definitely include lucky and alert, there is absolutely 0 need to build to defend against grapple at all. Against just about any class win initiative and even with just a mediocre not even a poor portent roll you can auto win after initiative, by saying haha you auto fail your save.

[DragonSorcererX]

Me vs my friend (Squiddish)

I'm a divination wizard and all I know is that Squiddish is some type of fighter.

The rules.
Flat arena
Combatants start within 60 ft of each other
All UA allowed
No multiclassing or magic items
Near infinite money to buy equipment
Exiting the arena was a forfeit (entering the ethereal plane didn't count).
No time limit.

How the battle was.
Squiddish was an arcane archer and won initiative. Squiddish also had a horse. Squiddish was able to move 120 feet each turn with his horse while non of my spells could reach him (I should have bought a horse). Squiddish could literally deal only one damage a turn while I could no reach him. In the end I planeshifted away to avoid death by a thousand cuts (Squiddish had a range of 800 ft). The fighter won that battle because I essentially forfeited.

Moral of the Story: Wizards buy a horse or learn phantom steed, or at least cast forcecage on yourself and then leomunds tiny hut in order to longrest and switch out spells.

Squiddish if there is anything else you wanted to add feel free and congrats on the win that was some A+ planning.

At least Squiddish was magical, so it's no shame to lose to another magical character, it would be a shame if you had lost to the NPC Class (Champion).

[Asmotherion]

No offence, but it took a great deal of bad planing on your part. Which is quite ironic considering you were playing a diviner.

First, your Defences; Wall of Force, Investiture of Wind and many other spells can quickly turn his strategy against him, and force him to come in melee

For the direct approach, Meteor Swarm. With 1 mile range and 40d6 damage, he is probably down to about 1/2 his HP.

Then, as he is forced to come in melee, use upcasted fireballs and stuff to fry what's left. Alternativelly, Dimension Door, Haste, Longstrider, Expeditious Retreat or Phantom Steed can give you the mobility you lack to chase him with spellcasting.

[Potato_Priest]

For the direct approach, Meteor Swarm. With 1 mile range and 40d6 damage, he is probably down to about 1/2 his HP.


This fight was at level 15, so meteor storm wasn't accessible.

[Gignere]

Ok I just checked the wizard spells list and there is a few spells that have a 150 feet range or more which means even if the warhorse moves 120 feet the wizard can still nuke the horse and the fighter and the warhorse will be instagibbed even on successful save. This list probably not even an exhaustive one Delayed Fireblast, Chain Lightning, Sunburst, Otiluke's freezing Sphere, even Fireball.

Are you saying your buddy chose none of those spells at all? That is unfriggin believable. With probably 20 spells to prepare.

Like I said your buddy either is clueless at playing a wizard or he is just trolling us by throwing the fight.

[Sigreid]

Ok I just checked the wizard spells list and there is a few spells that have a 150 feet range or more which means even if the warhorse moves 120 feet the wizard can still nuke the horse and the fighter and the warhorse will be instagibbed even on successful save. This list probably not even an exhaustive one Delayed Fireblast, Chain Lightning, Sunburst, Otiluke's freezing Sphere, even Fireball.

Are you saying your buddy chose none of those spells at all? That is unfriggin believable. With probably 20 spells to prepare.

Like I said your buddy either is clueless at playing a wizard or he is just trolling us by throwing the fight.

This reminds me of the old AD&D advice for fighting a mounted cavalier. The question is not what's the AC of the knight. It's what is the AC of his horse?

[RulesJD]

Basically, you're a bad Wizard and you should feel bad.

I mean, hell, Mold Earth and hop in the hole so he had to be <10ft away to even see you. Blam, job done, move on.

Also, Blink + Dimension Door = easy win mode. All the movement in the world won't stop a Fireball insta-killing his horse.

[Squiddish]

Ok I just checked the wizard spells list and there is a few spells that have a 150 feet range or more which means even if the warhorse moves 120 feet the wizard can still nuke the horse and the fighter and the warhorse will be instagibbed even on successful save. This list probably not even an exhaustive one Delayed Fireblast, Chain Lightning, Sunburst, Otiluke's freezing Sphere, even Fireball.

Are you saying your buddy chose none of those spells at all? That is unfriggin believable. With probably 20 spells to prepare.

Like I said your buddy either is clueless at playing a wizard or he is just trolling us by throwing the fight.
He certainly didn't throw the fight, since he kept trying to claim it was a tie for like an hour afterward.
A. In the first round I was 120 feet away, but he was blind past 30 feet, and thus could not target me with AoE spells because he couldn't see me. He was also prone, so he couldn't get close to me even if he dashed.
B. After the first round, I was 180 feet away, and thus out of range of every attack he could throw at me.
If he had Spell Sniper, he could have hit me. We were very surprised that he didn't have it.

Basically, you're a bad Wizard and you should feel bad.

I mean, hell, Mold Earth and hop in the hole so he had to be <10ft away to even see you. Blam, job done, move on.

Also, Blink + Dimension Door = easy win mode. All the movement in the world won't stop a Fireball insta-killing his horse.

1. I had sharpshooter, and an arbitrary number of arrows. I wouldn't need to see him, I could just shoot at the hole until enough arrows hit him that he died.
2. Dimension door is an action. He moves 500 feet closer to me, he's then 100 feet away. I dash, and then I'm 220 feet away, out of the range of his spells.
However, you are correct that dimension door would work (eventually), I'm not sure why he didn't use it.

[Gignere]

He certainly didn't throw the fight, since he kept trying to claim it was a tie for like an hour afterward.
A. In the first round I was 120 feet away, but he was blind past 30 feet, and thus could not target me with AoE spells because he couldn't see me. He was also prone, so he couldn't get close to me even if he dashed.
B. After the first round, I was 180 feet away, and thus out of range of every attack he could throw at me.
If he had Spell Sniper, he could have hit me. We were very surprised that he didn't have it.


1. I had sharpshooter, and an arbitrary number of arrows. I wouldn't need to see him, I could just shoot at the hole until enough arrows hit him that he died.
2. Dimension door is an action. He moves 500 feet closer to me, he's then 100 feet away. I dash, and then I'm 220 feet away, out of the range of his spells.
However, you are correct that dimension door would work (eventually), I'm not sure why he didn't use it.


Fireball, Delayed Fireblast, Otiluke's, and Sunburst doesn't even need sight to target like I said your buddy is clueless about playing a wizard.

[RulesJD]

He certainly didn't throw the fight, since he kept trying to claim it was a tie for like an hour afterward.
A. In the first round I was 120 feet away, but he was blind past 30 feet, and thus could not target me with AoE spells because he couldn't see me. He was also prone, so he couldn't get close to me even if he dashed.
B. After the first round, I was 180 feet away, and thus out of range of every attack he could throw at me.
If he had Spell Sniper, he could have hit me. We were very surprised that he didn't have it.


1. I had sharpshooter, and an arbitrary number of arrows. I wouldn't need to see him, I could just shoot at the hole until enough arrows hit him that he died.
2. Dimension door is an action. He moves 500 feet closer to me, he's then 100 feet away. I dash, and then I'm 220 feet away, out of the range of his spells.
However, you are correct that dimension door would work (eventually), I'm not sure why he didn't use it.

1. You're using some homebrew game mechanics, so no.

2. That's what Blink is for. Pretty sure whatever your homebrew is can't hit into the Ethereal Plane.

3. Dimension Doors round 1 so he's right on top of you + War Caster = either you Disengage, or Move Away and eat a spell. Congrats, he is smart enough to target a weak save and you're done. I'd go with Banishment just to kill the horse while you're gone for giggles.

4. Have your Familiar up to cast Touch spells. Cast Invisibility on the Familiar (your special homebrew arrows won't work against that.

How the hell was he Blind past 30ft with his supposedly good Divination rolls?

No, he's a bad Wizard and he should feel bad.

*edit*

You have no idea how the game works if you think Sharpshooter = by-passes Full Cover. Because it doesn't. Prone + 5ft deep hole = full cover until you have LoS, not 3/4 cover. Again, your homebrew might get around this, but that's exactly it, homebrew. That's irrelevant for versus discussions, especially ones where it doesn't even matter given the plethora of ways Wizards can get Full Cover with no way to hit them (Blink, Rope Trick, WoF, etc).

[coredump]

Jeebus people.... lay off. The wizard said he didn't prep very well. He was just coming here to share a story. But people here feel the need to say how great *they* would have been in that situation.... how insecure can people be...??

What he did is pretty understandable, he narrowed his focus to a certain type of fighter and picked spells based on that. He goofed and they both know it.

So yes, there are a number of 150' spells, but that doesn't mean he would have prepared one, they aren't *that* common.
Many would have picked Misty Step as an escape, but maybe he picked another method to deal with a grappling fighter.
And the fighter started well, trip and blind really messes with a wizard.

Necro, thanks for sharing. Yes, you could have prepped better.... and maybe you still could have won. But who cares, you guys had fun, you both learned some stuff, and since its only a game, no one's village actually got pillaged and burnt down.


I still want to know how the archer was only doing 1 hp/hit.


Squidd, he could have easily closed the distance to <500ft before Dim Door next to you. (If he had Dim Door)

[Gignere]

Jeebus people.... lay off. The wizard said he didn't prep very well. He was just coming here to share a story. But people here feel the need to say how great *they* would have been in that situation.... how insecure can people be...??

What he did is pretty understandable, he narrowed his focus to a certain type of fighter and picked spells based on that. He goofed and they both know it.

So yes, there are a number of 150' spells, but that doesn't mean he would have prepared one, they aren't *that* common.
Many would have picked Misty Step as an escape, but maybe he picked another method to deal with a grappling fighter.
And the fighter started well, trip and blind really messes with a wizard.

Necro, thanks for sharing. Yes, you could have prepped better.... and maybe you still could have won. But who cares, you guys had fun, you both learned some stuff, and since its only a game, no one's village actually got pillaged and burnt down.


I still want to know how the archer was only doing 1 hp/hit.


Squidd, he could have easily closed the distance to <500ft before Dim Door next to you. (If he had Dim Door)

Fireball is a rare prep? Maybe if the wizard fell off the stupid tree and hit every branch along the way.

[SharkForce]

Fireball is a rare prep? Maybe if the wizard fell off the stupid tree and hit every branch along the way.

for a 1v1 battle, fireball doesn't make a huge amount of sense.

it's beside the point though. he was blind (good luck even picking the right direction to walk in) and prone when his turn started.

mistakes were certainly made. i'm not convinced a lack of fireball was one of those mistakes. he could have (and should have) had options that would have let him regain control of that fight. he didn't. that was poor preparation on his part. lack of fireball? eh, not so weird, considering the circumstances. prepare it for a regular adventuring day, absolutely. prepare it for a 1v1 against someone who either wants to be right next to you anyways (melee warrior) or will have excellent dex (ranged warrior)? not so much.

[Gignere]

for a 1v1 battle, fireball doesn't make a huge amount of sense.

it's beside the point though. he was blind (good luck even picking the right direction to walk in) and prone when his turn started.

mistakes were certainly made. i'm not convinced a lack of fireball was one of those mistakes. he could have (and should have) had options that would have let him regain control of that fight. he didn't. that was poor preparation on his part. lack of fireball? eh, not so weird, considering the circumstances. prepare it for a regular adventuring day, absolutely. prepare it for a 1v1 against someone who either wants to be right next to you anyways (melee warrior) or will have excellent dex (ranged warrior)? not so much.

But one spell out of twenty prep to guard against kiting is not unreasonable also in 5e even when you can't see you can still target. This is just the way how 5e works you can disagree but that is RAW. My pick would be Otiluke's Freezing Sphere 300 feet.

[RulesJD]

*snip*

The problem is he STILL should have won even with his terribad prep.

By definition, he had Plane Shift. Unless he was insane, he also had Find Familiar and Invisibility. Completely wall himself in (so even the arrows can't get to him from any angle), cast Invisibility on the Familiar. Open a small hole, send the Familiar out.

It now flies out to the horse over the course of 3-4 turns. Can't target it because he literally can't see or sense it. If you truly want to go by Raw, fine, roll Stealth at Advantage.

Either way, use Familiar to deliver the Plane Shift touch attack. Heck, target the Riding Horse for extra fun as with a (presumably) DC 18 Charisma Save, his Portent die can make the Riding Horse auto-fail. Pick off Archer at your leisure.


Also, this is why every Wizard vs. Thread has the spell Contingency mentioned. It helps Wizards break Action Economy by getting a spell off-turn. Dimension Door is a great choice because you can start your turn within (at worst) 120ft of the Fighter (who could only move away 120ft after the Wizard suddenly appears next to the Fighter on the Fighter's turn). Fireball = dead riding horse. Pick off Archer at your leisure.

[SharkForce]

But one spell out of twenty prep to guard against kiting is not unreasonable also in 5e even when you can't see you can still target. This is just the way how 5e works you can disagree but that is RAW. My pick would be Otiluke's Freezing Sphere 300 feet.

*shrug* one spell against kiting is not a bad idea. it just seems weird to specifically call out a lack of fireball as being a terrible thing. in this particular example, it seems like dimension door (and having an additional creature to bring with you - in this case, it should have been a simulacrum) would have made a lot of sense.

[Squiddish]

Fireball, Delayed Fireblast, Otiluke's, and Sunburst doesn't even need sight to target like I said your buddy is clueless about playing a wizard.

The thing is, he didn't know where I was. Any attack would be a shot in the dark.

1. You're using some homebrew game mechanics, so no.

2. That's what Blink is for. Pretty sure whatever your homebrew is can't hit into the Ethereal Plane.

3. Dimension Doors round 1 so he's right on top of you + War Caster = either you Disengage, or Move Away and eat a spell. Congrats, he is smart enough to target a weak save and you're done. I'd go with Banishment just to kill the horse while you're gone for giggles.

4. Have your Familiar up to cast Touch spells. Cast Invisibility on the Familiar (your special homebrew arrows won't work against that.

How the hell was he Blind past 30ft with his supposedly good Divination rolls?

No, he's a bad Wizard and he should feel bad.

*edit*

You have no idea how the game works if you think Sharpshooter = by-passes Full Cover. Because it doesn't. Prone + 5ft deep hole = full cover until you have LoS, not 3/4 cover. Again, your homebrew might get around this, but that's exactly it, homebrew. That's irrelevant for versus discussions, especially ones where it doesn't even matter given the plethora of ways Wizards can get Full Cover with no way to hit them (Blink, Rope Trick, WoF, etc).
1. Arcane archer is UA, not homebrew

2. I couldn't, but he couldn't get close to me.

3. He didn't have war caster, or spell sniper, which is the baffling thing.

4.If I've seen it in the last minute I can use a seeking arrow (which again, is UA not homebrew).

It doesn't. But, with any sane DM, an archer, especially a skilled one, should eventually be able to shoot the bottom of a hole without being able to see it.

And I will reiterate, Arcane Archer is UA, and balanced against the PHB options.

The problem is he STILL should have won even with his terribad prep.

By definition, he had Plane Shift. Unless he was insane, he also had Find Familiar and Invisibility. Completely wall himself in (so even the arrows can't get to him from any angle), cast Invisibility on the Familiar. Open a small hole, send the Familiar out.

It now flies out to the horse over the course of 3-4 turns. Can't target it because he literally can't see or sense it. If you truly want to go by Raw, fine, roll Stealth at Advantage.

Either way, use Familiar to deliver the Plane Shift touch attack. Heck, target the Riding Horse for extra fun as with a (presumably) DC 18 Charisma Save, his Portent die can make the Riding Horse auto-fail. Pick off Archer at your leisure.


Also, this is why every Wizard vs. Thread has the spell Contingency mentioned. It helps Wizards break Action Economy by getting a spell off-turn. Dimension Door is a great choice because you can start your turn within (at worst) 120ft of the Fighter (who could only move away 120ft after the Wizard suddenly appears next to the Fighter on the Fighter's turn). Fireball = dead riding horse. Pick off Archer at your leisure.

He couldn't contingency on the first turn. We've already acknowledged that his main mistake was not using dimension door.

I was entirely too far away for the find familiar tactic to work. It can only deliver spells while within 100 feet of its master, and I was for the most part 600 feet away.

[Gignere]

The thing is, he didn't know where I was. Any attack would be a shot in the dark.

1. Arcane archer is UA, not homebrew

2. I couldn't, but he couldn't get close to me.

3. He didn't have war caster, or spell sniper, which is the baffling thing.

4.If I've seen it in the last minute I can use a seeking arrow (which again, is UA not homebrew).

It doesn't. But, with any sane DM, an archer, especially a skilled one, should eventually be able to shoot the bottom of a hole without being able to see it.

And I will reiterate, Arcane Archer is UA, and balanced against the PHB options.


He couldn't contingency on the first turn. We've already acknowledged that his main mistake was not using dimension door.

I was entirely too far away for the find familiar tactic to work. It can only deliver spells while within 100 feet of its master, and I was for the most part 600 feet away.

Unless yo take the hide action in 5e you always know where someone is at least down to the 5 feet square, what you just said is houserules not RAW.

[GPS]

Unless yo take the hide action in 5e you always know where someone is at least down to the 5 feet square, what you just said is houserules not RAW.

I'm one of the members of this particular gaming group. I don't really want to get into whatever this has collapsed into, I'm just confused as to why this is an argument. This is just a fun little arena fight as a gaming group, not a hardcore competitive death fight where the most experienced players on the planet are pitched against each other. Necro and Squidd may have made mistakes because they're people, not a spell-picking machine and a perfect fighterbot. Also, surprise surprise, houses have house rules. If you want a perfectly planned RAW match, do it yourself and have some fun instead of attacking my buds for days. I'm still kind of confused as to why all your admittedly pretty good advice was laced with insults.

[Gignere]

I'm one of the members of this particular gaming group. I don't really want to get into whatever this has collapsed into, I'm just confused as to why this is an argument. This is just a fun little arena fight as a gaming group, not a hardcore competitive death fight where the most experienced players on the planet are pitched against each other. Necro and Squidd may have made mistakes because they're people, not a spell-picking machine and a perfect fighterbot. Also, surprise surprise, houses have house rules. If you want a perfectly planned RAW match, do it yourself and have some fun instead of attacking my buds for days. I'm still kind of confused as to why all your admittedly pretty good advice was laced with insults.

Your buddies the ones that came on board to post about the fight we are just posting where there are houserules and how those houserules impacted the fight. Your buddies didn't say we fought with a bunch of house rules, they heavily implied that the fighter won a RAW match.

If you think stating that one of your buddies is clueless at playing a wizard is insulting, I take it back. But i just meant it as a statement of fact and your buddy need to learn more about the class mechanics and features.

[Misterwhisper]

Your buddies the ones that came on board to post about the fight we are just posting where there are houserules and how those houserules impacted the fight. Your buddies didn't say we fought with a bunch of house rules, they heavily implied that the fighter won a RAW match.

If you think stating that one of your buddies is clueless at playing a wizard is insulting, I take it back. But i just meant it as a statement of fact and your buddy need to learn more about the class mechanics and features.

I do not take it back, like at all.

If people do not want someone to complain about a player who sucks at playing their character, then do not make a thread about an arena fight were someone so complete screws up at playing their class.

The house rule thing has nothing to do with it.


Moral of the story, do not post about a gaming situation if you are going to whine when people critique it.

[Squiddish]

Jeebus people.... lay off. The wizard said he didn't prep very well. He was just coming here to share a story. But people here feel the need to say how great *they* would have been in that situation.... how insecure can people be...??



I still want to know how the archer was only doing 1 hp/hit.


Squidd, he could have easily closed the distance to <500ft before Dim Door next to you. (If he had Dim Door)

I thank you for your calm, rational viewpoint.

I think that was a typo. I actually can't deal less than 6.

[RulesJD]

The thing is, he didn't know where I was. Any attack would be a shot in the dark.

1. Arcane archer is UA, not homebrew

2. I couldn't, but he couldn't get close to me.

3. He didn't have war caster, or spell sniper, which is the baffling thing.

4.If I've seen it in the last minute I can use a seeking arrow (which again, is UA not homebrew).

It doesn't. But, with any sane DM, an archer, especially a skilled one, should eventually be able to shoot the bottom of a hole without being able to see it.

And I will reiterate, Arcane Archer is UA, and balanced against the PHB options.


He couldn't contingency on the first turn. We've already acknowledged that his main mistake was not using dimension door.

I was entirely too far away for the find familiar tactic to work. It can only deliver spells while within 100 feet of its master, and I was for the most part 600 feet away.

1. Using UA is, by definition, Homebrew. It's homebrew released by WotC, but homebrew nonetheless. It is not officially published material. Also, UA isn't balanced against anything, at all.

2. How did you possibly see him for 1 minute? That's ten rounds he should have been able to absolutely wreck you in. If you're saying you had seen him 1 minute PRIOR to combat, then he gets to come in with all of his buff spells already online because apparently he was just chilling there for 1 minute. So he comes in with Blink/Mirror Image/Blur/whatever else already up. Again, he was a bad Wizard and should feel bad.

3. You really don't get how 5e works do you? If you do not have a LoS to a target, they have full cover from your non-Seeking Arrow attacks. No amount of shooting an arrow into a hole will hit a target there, period. He can also just gain full cover via Rope Trick, Ottos Res Sphere, etc. You want RAW, then you play by RAW.

4. Again, I can't emphasize this enough, DDoor means he can be within your range easily round 1. This is especially true if you're only doing 1 damage WHICH YOU STILL HAVEN'T explained. You also haven't explained why he didn't use his supposedly high Portent rolls to auto-save the Blindness, etc. DDoor is 500ft, your maximum distance away is 180ft at Round 1. Hell, he could have just ran forward (30ft, so now you're 150 away) and cast a Fireball at you round 1 to kill your horse. He's a bad Wizard and should feel bad.

5. Any sane DM would have let the Wizard have his 10 day duration buff spell (Contingency) and his Simulacrum already up, especially if you're trying to claim you saw the target for 1 minute prior to combat. You sure you want to use that argument??

6. Any sane DM also wouldn't let you attack an Invisible flying Owl, so are we playing by RAW or not? Take your pick.

[Squiddish]

1. Using UA is, by definition, Homebrew. It's homebrew released by WotC, but homebrew nonetheless. It is not officially published material. Also, UA isn't balanced against anything, at all.

2. How did you possibly see him for 1 minute? That's ten rounds he should have been able to absolutely wreck you in. If you're saying you had seen him 1 minute PRIOR to combat, then he gets to come in with all of his buff spells already online because apparently he was just chilling there for 1 minute. So he comes in with Blink/Mirror Image/Blur/whatever else already up. Again, he was a bad Wizard and should feel bad.

3. You really don't get how 5e works do you? If you do not have a LoS to a target, they have full cover from your non-Seeking Arrow attacks. No amount of shooting an arrow into a hole will hit a target there, period. He can also just gain full cover via Rope Trick, Ottos Res Sphere, etc. You want RAW, then you play by RAW.

4. Again, I can't emphasize this enough, DDoor means he can be within your range easily round 1. This is especially true if you're only doing 1 damage WHICH YOU STILL HAVEN'T explained. You also haven't explained why he didn't use his supposedly high Portent rolls to auto-save the Blindness, etc. DDoor is 500ft, your maximum distance away is 180ft at Round 1. Hell, he could have just ran forward (30ft, so now you're 150 away) and cast a Fireball at you round 1 to kill your horse. He's a bad Wizard and should feel bad.

5. Any sane DM would have let the Wizard have his 10 day duration buff spell (Contingency) and his Simulacrum already up, especially if you're trying to claim you saw the target for 1 minute prior to combat. You sure you want to use that argument??

6. Any sane DM also wouldn't let you attack an Invisible flying Owl, so are we playing by RAW or not? Take your pick.

1. UA is balanced if you don't multiclass

2. I had to see him for any amount of time, but within a minute of firing the arrow.

3. I'm not aiming at him. I'm aiming at the hole. There's no line of sight, but arrows don't travel in lines. Who said we were playing with RAW? Did the OP say that?

4. I'm not only doing 1 damage, that was a typo on NecroDancer's part. There's no save against the blindness, it activates as long as the arrow hits. He was also prone and blind, in an arena with all sorts of random blocks everywhere, so Dimension Door-ing while blind has a good chance of hurting him instead.

5. I never claimed to have seen him one minute prior. We were also allowed arbitrary equipment but not arbitrary preparation.

6. That isn't relevant. His familiar could do nothing to me. I was past the range of its ability to deliver spells.

[GPS]

1. UA is balanced if you don't multiclass

2. I had to see him for any amount of time, but within a minute of firing the arrow.

3. I'm not aiming at him. I'm aiming at the hole. There's no line of sight, but arrows don't travel in lines. Who said we were playing with RAW? Did the OP say that?

4. I'm not only doing 1 damage, that was a typo on NecroDancer's part. There's no save against the blindness, it activates as long as the arrow hits. He was also prone and blind, in an arena with all sorts of random blocks everywhere, so Dimension Door-ing while blind has a good chance of hurting him instead.

5. I never claimed to have seen him one minute prior. We were also allowed arbitrary equipment but not arbitrary preparation.

6. That isn't relevant. His familiar could do nothing to me. I was past the range of its ability to deliver spells.

Necro did not say or imply you guys were facing off in RAW, that's just that other guy trying to craft this thread into his personal argument thread. Seriously, Necro has already told us in private that he's not interested in coming back and seeing what this has devolved into. I'm a big caster fan too, but you don't see me constantly calling my friend an idiot because he messed a little bit up. I mentioned earlier that Gignere, Misterwhisper, you guys both gave valid good advice. You also laced said advice with insults and belittlement for absolutely no reason. A little is just banter, but this has crossed the line to the point where it's become just attacks on Necro.

[SharkForce]

hmmmm... ok, i'm out of this discussion. people are starting to froth at the mouth here. it's a bit excessive.

i will say, however, that the people criticizing the OP and his(?) group are not doing a very good job at reading comprehension, and you should all probably take a deep breath, step away from the computer for a while, get yourselves calmed down about the fact that someone played an arena battle really badly, and then, *maybe* (if you think you can do so without becoming enraged over fairly trivial things) come back, re-read what has been posted, and attempt to have a measured calm discussion about playing a game where you imagine things.

[GPS]

hmmmm... ok, i'm out of this discussion. people are starting to froth at the mouth here. it's a bit excessive.

i will say, however, that the people criticizing the OP and his(?) group are not doing a very good job at reading comprehension, and you should all probably take a deep breath, step away from the computer for a while, get yourselves calmed down about the fact that someone played an arena battle really badly, and then, *maybe* (if you think you can do so without becoming enraged over fairly trivial things) come back, re-read what has been posted, and attempt to have a measured calm discussion about playing a game where you imagine things.

At this point it's kind of pointless. All intelligent comments were made within two days of the original post, this is just pointless argument. I'm just gonna leave, Necro and Jam left on day one, Squidd's probably close to done. What an introduction to this forum.

[coredump]

At this point it's kind of pointless. All intelligent comments were made within two days of the original post, this is just pointless argument. I'm just gonna leave, Necro and Jam left on day one, Squidd's probably close to done. What an introduction to this forum.

My apologies... the forum usually isnt' quite this bad. Just some people have this need to try and feel important by 'proving' how much 'better' they would be.

Even if it takes ignoring what has already been said to do it.....