The Raven Queen, how would she get here?

[Millstone85]

The new UA brings the Raven Queen as an otherworldly patron for warlocks. And she isn't just given as an example of "The Psychopomp" or "The Grim Reaper", no, the subclass is actually named after her specifically.

I find this very troubling.

The default 4e setting, sometimes called The Dawn War, Points of Light or Nentir Vale, used the World Axis cosmology, which had the following main differences with the current Great Wheel:
* Instead of the Astral Plane and the Outer Planes, there was the Plane Above, or Astral Sea, and its divine dominions.
* Instead of the Elemental Chaos and the Inner Planes, there was the Plane Below, already called the Elemental Chaos, and its primordial realms.
* The Material Plane was called the Mortal World and was found in between the Astral Sea and the Elemental Chaos, along with its echoes the Shadowfell and the Feywild.
* The Abyss was in the elemental part of the cosmology. Note that the Great Wheel and the World Axis could otherwise easily be interpreted as two different representations of the same thing.

http://i.imgur.com/U6XcGFI.png

When 4e tackled other settings, namely Forgotten Realms, Eberron and Dark Sun, their cosmologies were modified to match the default as closely as possible:
* In Forgotten Realms, the Spellplague jumbled away the symmetry of the Great Wheel, while Asmodeus put the Blood War to a halt by throwing the Abyss into the Elemental Chaos.
* In Eberron, as pictured above, the planes got subtitles. For example, Dolurrh wasn't just like the Shadowfell, it was sometimes known by that name.
* In Dark Sun, it was said that the planes used to be like those of the default setting but then the Feywild went kablooie and most connections with the Astral Sea were severed.

As a new D&D player at the time, this made be believe that Toril, Eberron, Athas and the unnamed world of the PHB were always meant to be understood as different planets within the same three-dimensional plane, and that each had its own echo inside a shadowy alternate universe, as well as in a fey one. A game of Planes & Planets, so to speak.

I know better now. Though, having since learned about Spelljammer, I think there would be fun to have with a dark and fey versions of the Phlogiston.
Now, back to the Raven Queen.
http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/dnd4/images/b/b5/Raven_Queen.png

She was the goddess of death in the default 4e setting, and a major ruler of the Shadowfell. Accordingly, the 5e DMG lists her as a Dawn War deity (p10), and the UA emphasizes her power over the Shadowfell.

But what does this mean for future books?

Are we getting a Dawn War campaign guide?

Or do the Raven Queen and her Shadowfell now transcend all settings? Like how "Rumors abound that this foul place (Evernight) mirrors one city on every world" (DMG p52).

How would you introduce her in, say, Forgotten Realms, where Kelemvor is the reaper and the Shadowfell mostly belongs to Shar?

[Pazerniusz]

Shar MADE shadowfell and she RULE it since spellplague(Thx Cyric) and Kelemvor isn't Grim Reaper, this is Myrkul who is retired and is chilling out in crystal tower with Kelemvor. Isn't Raven Queen introduced as one of the Dread Lords with her own dread domain in shadowfell?

[Millstone85]

Shar MADE shadowfell and she RULE it since spellplague(Thx Cyric)All the more reason why it would be difficult to introduce the Raven Queen in Forgotten Realms.


and Kelemvor isn't Grim Reaper, this is Myrkul who is retired and is chilling out in crystal tower with Kelemvor.I think you mean Jergal.


Isn't Raven Queen introduced as one of the Dread Lords with her own dread domain in shadowfell?
You patron is the Raven Queen, a mysterious being who rules the Shadowfell from a palace of ice deep within that dread realm.Not a dread domain, the whole of the dread realm that is the Shadowfell. As was the case in 4e's default setting.

[Arkhios]

You know, it's starting to make sense that they might indeed be introducing a "completely new" setting with it's own campaign book: the Dawn War.

All these new UA options are somewhat off from being exactly from Eberron and the like. Maybe they're indeed doing this as a way to only briefly mention how you could reflavor this and that for your favorite setting (like they did with the character options in SCAG) instead of telling us exactly how things may or may not have been affected by the rules disparities. Also, I can see there's little point in rewriting loads of campaign specific information that can be accessed through old material anyway. A Dawn War setting might be more interesting as a whole.

[Nishant]

From my (admittedly limited) reading, the Raven queen seems like an interesting case; she is a mortal-made-God who took her powers from he deific husband, and expanded her influence and domains by stealing from others. By that sense, I can easily see her as a warlock patron, despite being a proper deity. She hits all the right notes for a lot of classes, actually; winter and death could be an area of expertise of Druids, grave and fate clerics, Paladins of vengeance or otherwise... If memory serves there's even a shadow Sorceror.

Actually gives me a couple campaign ideas.

[Arkhios]

From my (admittedly limited) reading, the Raven queen seems like an interesting case; she is a mortal-made-God who took her powers from he deific husband, and expanded her influence and domains by stealing from others. By that sense, I can easily see her as a warlock patron, despite being a proper deity. She hits all the right notes for a lot of classes, actually; winter and death could be an area of expertise of Druids, grave and fate clerics, Paladins of vengeance or otherwise... If memory serves there's even a shadow Sorceror.

Actually gives me a couple campaign ideas.

In our homebrew setting Raven Queen plays a pivotal role as she has assumed the mantle of a former god of death, who is now dead. It's technically not known to the players, but the former death god is about to be risen again and retake his dominion over Death at some point in near future, which includes a major event which can be felt throughout the world.

We're running two separate campaigns in the same setting (I play in another, and the DM of that campaign plays in mine), and worldwide events take place simultaneously even though both adventuring groups are unaware of each other. We're going to have vaguely connected events in both campaigns more or less at the same time, and I think it's probable that these events will continue for a while before the dead god arises again, which is something the players really can't prevent, only hopelessly watch as it happens.

[Sir_Leorik]

I would handle the Raven Queen in non-Nentir Vale campaigns by saying she is an obscure quasi-deity who lacks the worshipers to have clerics but is keen on making pacts with Warlocks. She resides somewhere within the Shadowfell in a wintry demesne.

[Regitnui]

Well, considering the Mabar, the Shadowfell, and Dolurrh, the Afterlife, are two different things in Eberron, the question arises as to where she actually remains.

It's fairly easy to put her right into Mabar, just directly transplanting the lore about her ruling the Shadowfell into ruling Mabar. However, Mabar has an association with the undead. Vampires, liches, zombies, skeletons and their ilk are all called 'Mabaran undead', to separate them from the positive-energy Undying made and maintained by the Aereni. This, given her association with being the timekeeper of lives (:smallconfused: I like that title :smallamused:), seems wrong.

As the Timekeeper of Lives, the Raven Queen may be better associated with the Afterlife, Dolurrh. As the plane is the acknowledged afterlife for every living soul, it makes sense that a psychopomp like the Raven Queen would reside there. In fact, the established lore of Dolurrh from 3.5 includes inevitables, Lawful constructs that hunt down those who unnaturally extend their lives.

In my Eberron game, were I to include the Raven Queen, she'd be a powerful outsider of Dolurrh. She would reside in Dolurrh, her servants ensuring the timeous death and rightful passage of souls. She'd be known as the Timekeeper of Souls. The Sovereign Host religion would regard her as a wife/servant of the Keeper, though not a part of mainstream doctrine. The Silver Flame would likely cast her as the final reckoning for souls that didn't go to the Flame, and the Blood of Vol would actively hate her, making her the 'devil' figure in their cosmology.

[Millstone85]

You know, it's starting to make sense that they might indeed be introducing a "completely new" setting with it's own campaign book: the Dawn War.Wouldn't that be quite the bold move? I like the Dawn War, except for things like having a god named Bane whose backstory is not the same as FR Bane, but other people must remember it as the default setting of an unpopular edition.


All these new UA options are somewhat off from being exactly from Eberron and the like. Maybe they're indeed doing this as a way to only briefly mention how you could reflavor this and that for your favorite setting (like they did with the character options in SCAG) instead of telling us exactly how things may or may not have been affected by the rules disparities. Also, I can see there's little point in rewriting loads of campaign specific information that can be accessed through old material anyway.What I am really crossing my fingers for is a big manual of the planes with that kind of setting information, including Planescape and Spelljammer stuff.


From my (admittedly limited) reading, the Raven queen seems like an interesting case; she is a mortal-made-God who took her powers from he deific husband, and expanded her influence and domains by stealing from others. By that sense, I can easily see her as a warlock patron, despite being a proper deity. She hits all the right notes for a lot of classes, actually; winter and death could be an area of expertise of Druids, grave and fate clerics, Paladins of vengeance or otherwise... If memory serves there's even a shadow Sorceror.

Actually gives me a couple campaign ideas.I think I read even less about who she used to be, but she does seem to have an interesting backstory.


I would handle the Raven Queen in non-Nentir Vale campaigns by saying she is an obscure quasi-deity who lacks the worshipers to have clerics but is keen on making pacts with Warlocks. She resides somewhere within the Shadowfell in a wintry demesne.Not a bad idea but it is starting to look like a new character. I wish the UA had kept the trend of naming patrons after general concepts, followed by examples.


Well, considering the Mabar, the Shadowfell, and Dolurrh, the Afterlife, are two different things in Eberron, the question arises as to where she actually remains.
As the Timekeeper of Lives, the Raven Queen may be better associated with the Afterlife, Dolurrh. As the plane is the acknowledged afterlife for every living soul, it makes sense that a psychopomp like the Raven Queen would reside there. In fact, the established lore of Dolurrh from 3.5 includes inevitables, Lawful constructs that hunt down those who unnaturally extend their lives.In 4e Eberron, it was Dolurrh that got "the Shadowfell" subtitle, not Mabar.

This made sense with the place of the Shadowfell in the 4e default setting. Indeed, it was the first afterlife any soul would go through, haunting it as a ghost or such, before being reborn in immortal flesh within an astral dominion. Depending on the nature of said dominion, this rebirth was known as exaltation or damnation. There were also souls that would linger endlessly in the Shadowfell, or leave it for some mysterious great beyond.

For Eberron, they just had to make endless lingering in the Shadowfell the most expected and perhaps only outcome.

And I am surprised Forgotten Realms went with this Shar business instead of expanding on the Fugue Plane.


It's fairly easy to put her right into Mabar, just directly transplanting the lore about her ruling the Shadowfell into ruling Mabar. However, Mabar has an association with the undead. Vampires, liches, zombies, skeletons and their ilk are all called 'Mabaran undead', to separate them from the positive-energy Undying made and maintained by the Aereni. This, given her association with being the timekeeper of lives (:smallconfused: I like that title :smallamused:), seems wrong.That has always been the Raven Queen's problem, in-universe.

The living would planeshift to the Shadowfell, build whole communities there, and then complain about their children aging weirdly or grandpa's corpse spontaneously getting up. And how many times did she have to say "You necromancers get off my lawn!"?

Life has no place in the land of the dead. Why don't people understand that? :smalltongue:

However, she doesn't mind all undead. The UA notes that:
She hates intelligent undead and expects her followers to strike them down, whereas mindless undead such as skeletons and zombies are little more than stumbling automatons in her eyes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rfHoFU_AUs

[NecroDancer]

I really like the Raven Queen as a nice alternative to other death based deities. Also it makes sense for her to have cleric as her missionaries/proxies while also having warlocks as "mercaneries". I also like how it mentions that the Raven queen isn't opposed to zombies just intelligent undead.

I am kinda sad that the Raven Queen is overshadowing Wee Jas.

[Regitnui]

The Raven Queen opposes all undead. She just hates the intelligent ones and thinks of the others as we do clockwork toys. They're quaint, but no threat to her.

[Temperjoke]

Yeah, she'd target the individuals making the mindless ones, instead of wasting time cleaning up skeletons and zombies.

You know, regarding the whole "Shar created the Shadowfell" business in FR, that was from an earlier edition. There have been changes in regards to the Gods and Goddesses in FR since the last edition, they could change this as well. For example, while Shar created the Shadowfell, the Raven Queen could have taken control of it from her, or in FR the Raven Queen has been taken as an aspect of Shar (only in FR though). The Raven Queen and Shar could be battling for control of the FR's version of Shadowfell. Remember, the language used in UA articles isn't final, so there's lots of room for interpretation.

EDIT: In fact, aside from the DMG, I don't think any of the current edition books have mentioned any details regarding the Shadowfell, such as powers in control of it.

[Millstone85]

I also like how it mentions that the Raven queen isn't opposed to zombies just intelligent undead.
The Raven Queen opposes all undead. She just hates the intelligent ones and thinks of the others as we do clockwork toys. They're quaint, but no threat to her.
Yeah, she'd target the individuals making the mindless ones, instead of wasting time cleaning up skeletons and zombies.True, true, but do note that she is not above creating some zombies herself. The 14th level feature, Queen’s Right Hand, is a 1/day finger of death.

In 4e, she was also known for creating intelligent undead called revenants, very similar to the revenant of the 5e MM. Those were even a playable race.

I don't think that makes her a hypocrite. As goddess of death and ruler of the Shadowfell, of course she will fight undeath with undeath.


I am kinda sad that the Raven Queen is overshadowing Wee Jas.I don't know Greyhawk well but the 5e DMG mentions Wee Jas as one of the inspirations for the Raven Queen.


In fact, aside from the DMG, I don't think any of the current edition books have mentioned any details regarding the Shadowfell, such as powers in control of it.There is probably more in Curse of Strahd, since the Dark Powers are now said to be from the Shadowfell, but you are right.

And there is already something I don't like.
It is a place of darkness that hates the light, where the sky is a black vault with neither sun nor stars.Too much. The 4e Shadowfell would never have a bright sunny day but it wasn't like someone said "The night will last forever!". Well, maybe that's how it was in FR but not in DW.

[Sigreid]

All the more reason why it would be difficult to introduce the Raven Queen in Forgotten Realms.



Well, the description of forgotten realms in the boxed set ages ago said the reason it was known as the forgotten realms is that portals periodically and randomly opened up between it and other worlds in the multiverse. So it's people came from every other setting. Seems that would explain it well enough. That portal recently opened.