Streamlined: Attacks, Saves, and Skills

[Deleted]

So, I've been thinking about 3e, 4e, and 5e and how each system does attacks and saving throws.

I think a great system is close when you take each and bring them together. There is a TL;DR at the bottom if you don't care about my background thoughts :p (I won't judge you).

3e

Attacks versus AC, flat footed AC, and touch AC.

Saving throws versus fort (con), ref (dex), or will (wis)

The problem with attacks is that it got too fiddly and it wasn't clear why certain attacks targeted AC, Touch AC, or FF AC but not the others. The rules were a bit inconsistent at times.

Saving throws had the problem of focusing on three of the ability scores and causing the others to be dumpable.

4e

Attacks were against AC, Fort, Ref, and Will. This rubbed some people the wrong way as they liked the saving throw system of 3e. Fort (STR or Con), Ref (Dex or Int), and Will (Wis or Cha)

Saving Throws were roll a d20 and compare to DC 10... Very few modifiers... People weren't happy about this simplicstic approach.

Problem with attacks were that people like their saving throws. Attack rolls and saves are just "backwards" mechanics. Many people took issue with Int being tied to reflex but not seeing through illusions... It was less that Int could be used for ref and more that it became a physical defense but not a mental one.

The problem with saving throws... The DC was never based off the person who caused the effect. The hit was, but people were used to having their character cause the DC to go up. Many effects happened for at least 1 round and then a possibility of save ends but longer lasting debuffs just didn't happen as much.

5e

Attacks: All attacks versus AC.

Saving throws: All ability scores gain their own saving throws. Some are tied to skills and are used in ability checks to stop the creature from being affected by a spell or effect.

There really isn't a huge problem with attacks in theory. Sweet and simple but...

Saving throws have a huuuuge problem. Some saving throws weigh more than others and if you don't focus on a save, you actually get worse at making that save versus the same threat as time goes on (because enemy DC goes up). So if you have a rival, and you don't focus on cha saves, your rival (for very little expenditure) can grab a cha save spell and have a better chance of you failing the save when you become at your day job. Your save may not change over 10 levels but that DC for the exact same effect certainly will.

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So, I was thinking, what's the difference between an attack and a save. Why not have everything be an attack (4e) or everything be a save (easily doable). People like attacks and people like saves.

Why is there a Dex (reflex) save at all? Your armor class takes into consideration your Dexterity and armor is essentially a replacement for reflex. You use your armor to negate damage when you can't dodge a source of damage.

So there are two types of effects. Physical and Mental.

Physical effects should all be versus AC as this already takes into account your Dexterity or a replacement for dexterity. Have spells like Fireball deal half damage on a miss and work evasion in there and call it a day.

The same thing for Strength saves. The stronger you are the faster you will be. Dexterity is about coordination, Strength is about power (which, btw, your base speed should be modified by your strength score just like how long you can run is determined by your constitution and how quick you get to running is modifier by your dex). Moving in armor to block a blow or using a shield to deflect a blow takes strength.

You could make AC a save, but you would have the same problem as making saves disappear...


So... using 5e...
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Attack Roll versus [AC: 10 (or Armor Bonus) + Str or Dex + Misc]

Con Save: as 5e
Int Save: as 5e
Wis Save: May add your cha mod or wis mod to Wis saves.

When used defensively, there is hardly a time when Wisdom and Charisma can't be considered a defense for the same effect. Your strong will power may come from your force of personality or your years of wisdom accumulating and allowing you to mentally push past an effect.

So, what we have with this is External versus Internal and a bit of consistency.

External effects will target your AC and some will have effects on a miss.

Internal effects will automatically hit, but you need to shrug them off in some way.

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Example

Kevin McMaincharacterface is a 10th level rogue that wears light armor and has a 20 dex score (AC 12 + 5).

A fireball erupts next to Kevin, the mage's attack wasn't the best (total roll was a 13) so Kevin takes half damage on a miss. However, Kevin is a rogue and has Evasion. Kevin takes no damage on the miss as he is able to gaurd his face and other precious parts from the flame.

Joe is a fighter with an 18 AC. That fireball's blast didn't directly hit him, thanks to his shield, but he can feel the burn. Joe takes half damage from the fireball.

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5e would still have the issue of "if you don't focus on a save, you get worse" issue and a fix to this would be to give half prof to non-proficient saves. At least there is some progression on thr players part.

TL;DR ... External effects versus Internal effects

All external effects (Str, Dex, AC) are attacks versus AC. Some effects may do half damage.

All internal effects (Con, Int, Wis, and Cha) are saving throws versus a DC.

Half-prof on saves (Con, Int, Wis) if not proficient.

AC: Armor Rating (or 10) + Str or Dex + Misc

Con Save: Con Mod + Prof
Int Save: Int Mod + Prof
Wis Save: Wis or Cha mod + Prof

Skill checks will be creature versus environment/situation and not creature versus creature (that's what AC and saves are for).



Barbarian: Armor (Special) and Con
Bard: Armor (Light, Shields) and Wis
Cleric: Armor and Wis
Druid: Int and Wis
Fighter: Armor and Con
Monk: Armor (Special) and Con
Paladin: Armor and Wis
Ranger: Armor and Con
Rogue: Armor (L, M, no shields) and Int
Sorcerer: Con and Wis
Warlock: Con and Int
Wizard: Int and Wis

[Potato_Priest]

This looks good. My main question is as to why int saves remain their own category.

[Deleted]

This looks good. My main question is as to why int saves remain their own category.

Thanks!

4e got rid of the normal saving throws and made them "Attack versus Defense" and people didn't like the feel of that. People like their saving throws, so you would want to keep them in the game. They said it wasn't "D&D", though to be honest it was a 3.5 rule they implemented to make the game more consistent.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/playersRollAllTheDice.htm#savingThrowsAndSaveScore s

Neat, right? I don't really blame people for not liking "Players Roll All The Dice", as it's a play style that not a lot of groups have even heard about. I'm honestly surprised they didn't put both systems in the rules and let the group decide which way to go.

Also, it sets up a nice line to show the difference between External Threats and Internal Threats to your PC. Much like how Skills are essentially the same system as Attack Rolls and Saving Throws, they are just altered slightly to show "hey, this is different".


Edit===

Just got off work so I missed the "Int" part of the question lol.

Int is different from will. Int is about logic while will is about emotion. Being smart or wise (or smart and strong willed) are two vastly different things.

[retaliation08]

This looks good. My main question is as to why int saves remain their own category.

I also think it is important to consider how "dumpable" Int is in 5e. If there ceases to be an Int save, it becomes even more of a dump stat.

I may have missed where this was explained, but how do you determine which spells affect AC vs Save?

It seems like you are having all physical saves go to AC and all mental saves go to Int or Wis, with the exception of Con saves. Am I understanding this correctly?

Also, at first glance, it seems like this system could get screwy with unarmored defense or other special AC bonuses, but I haven't put any thought into that yet.

[Deleted]

I also think it is important to consider how "dumpable" Int is in 5e. If there ceases to be an Int save, it becomes even more of a dump stat.

I may have missed where this was explained, but how do you determine which spells affect AC vs Save?

It seems like you are having all physical saves go to AC and all mental saves go to Int or Wis, with the exception of Con saves. Am I understanding this correctly?

Also, at first glance, it seems like this system could get screwy with unarmored defense or other special AC bonuses, but I haven't put any thought into that yet.

Int is already a dump stat, sadly, to make that better you need more abilities to target it. Really this is more of a problem of the devs ignoring Int saves (which could have been expanded upon due to Illusions). Int will always be a dump stat unless you fix that problem, which is a separate problem from the saving throw system itself.

I would say give more classes features that can be used with Intelligence and more features that can target Int (illusions). I still don't know why Investigation isn't a class skill for the class that is supposed to be a town guard or military police or whatever (Fighter), they have always been greedy about Int skills on the Fighter. Also make it where the search action is Perception = Creature, Investigation = Object (as it is now, Perception is the number 1 skill for finding anything).

Spells: Versus AC or Save?

Quick and easy rule: Attack Roll and Str/Dex Save spells are versus AC (because dexterity is already factored into AC) as an attack. All other spells give a Con, Int, or Wis (wis or cha mod) save as they normally would.

Most Con spells are things that automatically happen. Magic automatically gets into your body, poison gets into your lungs, and so forth. They are either undodgable or very fricken hard to dodge once you notice them. Stinking Cloud is an internal issue, as the spell has to be inside your body before you save against it. Constitution is a "physical" thing, but it is a an internal issue.

Unarmored Defense

Nothing really changes. The rules above apply as normal, you are just able to be weird and add other modifiers to your AC for whatever reason due to being "just that damn good" as people like to say. The above rules are just general rules, specific instances can still modify them. Any special bonuses to AC could apply to Dex saves as if the attack roll fails, they still do half damage.
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Some tweaks would need to be made here or there, but generally this should work.

Saving Throws are Attack Rolls backwards after all :smallsmile:

[retaliation08]

Int is already a dump stat, sadly, to make that better you need more abilities to target it. Really this is more of a problem of the devs ignoring Int saves (which could have been expanded upon due to Illusions). Int will always be a dump stat unless you fix that problem, which is a separate problem from the saving throw system itself.

I would say give more classes features that can be used with Intelligence and more features that can target Int (illusions). I still don't know why Investigation isn't a class skill for the class that is supposed to be a town guard or military police or whatever (Fighter), they have always been greedy about Int skills on the Fighter. Also make it where the search action is Perception = Creature, Investigation = Object (as it is now, Perception is the number 1 skill for finding anything).

Spells: Versus AC or Save?

Quick and easy rule: Attack Roll and Dex Save spells are versus AC (because dexterity is already factored into AC) as an attack. All other spells give a Con, Int, or Wis (wis or cha mod) save as they normally would.

Most Con spells are things that automatically happen. Magic automatically gets into your body, poison gets into your lungs, and so forth. They are either undodgable or very fricken hard to dodge once you notice them. Stinking Cloud is an internal issue, as the spell has to be inside your body before you save against it. Constitution is a "physical" thing, but it is a an internal issue.

Unarmored Defense

Nothing really changes. The rules above apply as normal, you are just able to be weird and add other modifiers to your AC for whatever reason due to being "just that damn good" as people like to say. The above rules are just general rules, specific instances can still modify them. Any special bonuses to AC could apply to Dex saves as if the attack roll fails, they still do half damage.
===

Some tweaks would need to be made here or there, but generally this should work.

Saving Throws are Attack Rolls backwards after all :smallsmile:


Ok I get it, and I like it, even. What about Str saves though? Some spells target Str saves, as well as many other class features for Monk, and Fighter, etc.

EDIT: It seems like doing a trip attack or open hand attack you would make two attack rolls vs AC?

[Deleted]

Ok I get it, and I like it, even. What about Str saves though? Some spells target Str saves, as well as many other class features for Monk, and Fighter, etc.

EDIT: It seems like doing a trip attack or open hand attack you would make two attack rolls vs AC?

Yeah, sorry Str as well!

Technically a normal Trip would use an Athletics versus Athletics or Acrobatics check, but I don't really want that to be a thing anymore and would put it under a normal attack versus AC. Essentially instead of rolling for damage, you trip the creature instead.

Open Hand would indeed be two attack rolls. Which is really no different from now, but instead of the player and the target rolling, only the player rolls.

[retaliation08]

Yeah, sorry Str as well!

Technically a normal Trip would use an Athletics versus Athletics or Acrobatics check, but I don't really want that to be a thing anymore and would put it under a normal attack versus AC. Essentially instead of rolling for damage, you trip the creature instead.

Open Hand would indeed be two attack rolls. Which is really no different from now, but instead of the player and the target rolling, only the player rolls.

By trip attack I was referring to the BM maneuver. Should have clarified that.

[Deleted]

By trip attack I was referring to the BM maneuver. Should have clarified that.

Oh!

Yes, two attacks.

Which is really no different from now. Attacks and Saves are just the same thing backwards after all :).

This would actually speed things up as the Fighter (BM) using Trip Attack could declare one d20 their attack roll d20 and the other d20 their maneuver d20 and roll both of them. Most groups, even in AL, seem to do things like this already when using extra attack or with an attack that deals extra damage (I think he 5e PHB calls out rolling everything and then seeing if you apply it).

Also, when I attempt to trip creatures, I like the roll being in my hands and allowing my character to determine the outcome. If my character does well, I trip the creature, if my character does poorly... Well, at least trip backs aren't a thing (though that would be a good reaction... If a creature tries to grapple or shove you and fails, you may use a reaction to perform the same maneuver against them).

[SpawnOfMorbo]

TL;DR ... External effects versus Internal effects

All external effects (Str, Dex, AC) are attacks versus AC. Some effects may do half damage.

All internal effects (Con, Int, Wis, and Cha) are saving throws versus a DC.

Half-prof on saves (Con, Int, Wis) if not proficient.

AC: Armor Rating (or 10) + Str or Dex + Misc

Con Save: Con Mod + Prof
Int Save: Int Mod + Prof
Wis Save: Wis or Cha mod + Prof




Well, hot damn, this is very simple and would fix a few problems I have with 5e.

[Deleted]

Well, hot damn, this is very simple and would fix a few problems I have with 5e.

That's the plan!

[Potato_Priest]

So, does this mean that classes sometimes get proficiency in their AC?

Also, under what situations do you add strength or dex to AC?

[Deleted]

So, does this mean that classes sometimes get proficiency in their AC?

Also, under what situations do you add strength or dex to AC?

Nope.

Though after reading through a few other homebrew I'm thinking about using a proficiency bonus system to AC instead of the current model. Have AC be class based and not equipment based. Armor could give defenses or temp HP, but I'll look that over later.

You calculate AC as you normally would. However, due to strength being included you can pick yhe higher of the two modifiers. Strength makes you faster, you may react slightly slower but what you lack in reactions your power makes up for. Strength isn't just bench pressing you know, don't skip leg day!

(Honestly speed should be modified by strength score...)

Normal
AC: 10 + Str or Dex Mod + Misc (shield, spell, cover, etc)

Armor
Studded Leather: 12 + Str or Dex Mod + Misc

Scale Mail: 14 + Str or Dex Mod (max +2) + Misc

Chain Mail: 16 + Misc

Unarmored Defenses

Barbarian: 10 + Con + (Str or Dex) + Misc

Monk: 10 + Wis + (Str or Dex) + Misc