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junlogji
2017-02-26, 01:45 PM
coi do

what are your thoughts about how alignments should work with characters with dissociative identity disorder more commonly referred to as multiple personality disorder

for example should their alignments be the mean of their "personalities" or perhaps each "personality" should be assigned a different alignment

do you think they should be able to have alignment restricted classes if one or more of their "personalities" does not fit that alignment's behavior if you do then are they considered to be an ex of that class while that takes place would a paladin have to atone when it happens

just some examples

i would like to read all of your thoughts on the subject

Honest Tiefling
2017-02-26, 01:59 PM
Personally, I wouldn't allow it. Firstly, the disorder is poorly understood, even by professionals. I don't mind in theory if people want to explore mental disorders or different ways of thinking, but most of the time I have seen this happen it wasn't treated with respect or knowledge. Mostly it was treated as a way to make a character 'edgy' without really knowing anything about the disorder. I mean, how many people know that the very existence of Dissociative Personality Disorder is actually still debated?

Secondly, alignment restricted classes tend to be restricted for reasons. Many of these reasons wouldn't apply. I sincerely doubt that a god would grant powers to someone suffering from trauma to this degree. If they did, they're kinda a jerkbag for granting powers to go fight to someone really in need of help. Or an idiot, if they couldn't keep tabs on their holy servants long enough to figure out what is happening. Alignment restrictions for non-supernatural reasons isn't my bag to begin with.

The third issue I have is the same reason I won't allow child PCs...WHAT ARE YOU DOING ON THE BATTLEFIELD. Not only is it really dark to send people in need of severe mental help in dangerous situations, it does begin to stretch credibility for me if people in this situation are 100% as capable of their fellows. Sure, no one is perfect and many would experience trauma, but would someone with severe issues regarding their own sense of self really be able to function in these situations?

Darth Ultron
2017-02-26, 02:10 PM
I know it's tempting to say that having a ''mental illness is an awesome way to beat the alignment system and rules'', but it just would not work that way. It would be nice be (fake) being ''good'' most of the time, and then have the awesome excuse to be able to do any evil act and still ''be good''.

It would not work though. Even if it's ''another personality'' or whatever....it's still you. If a person is good all week, and just does a horrible act of pure evil all weekend...that person is evil. And the same is true for the personality person.

Alignment is the sum of everything about a person, so everything counts.

druid91
2017-02-26, 02:10 PM
Well. Alignment isn't an internal thing. It's something the planar powers that be assign you. So presumably, unless they were kind enough to split your actions between your different personalities, it would simply count all of the persons actions as your own.

Also, this is fantasy. Where people in need of severe mental help literally get reality bending powers from beyond the stars sometimes. See, Great Old One warlock.

SethoMarkus
2017-02-26, 02:10 PM
Avoiding getting into any real-world implications, I think it depends on how multiple personalities works in your setting. It also has to deal with how alignment and the afterlife play into your setting. For example, if a person's physical body accompanies them in the afterlife, what happens if the person is destined for multiple different realms in the afterlife?

Here are my thoughts:

If it is a mental illness, I would say that it is independent of alignment. That leads into the followup question on how alignment works in your setting.


If behavior defines alignment, then all of the personalities would need to be balanced against one anothet and the "mean" set pf behaviors would determine alignment. Most probably Neutral on the Good/Evil axis, and probably Neutral leaning towards Chaotic on the Law/Chaos axis.

If motive, intent, or "soul/nature" detetmine alignment (alignment dictates behavior, rather than behavior dictates alignment), then I suppose the dominant personality determines alignment for the character, though they will often act outside of alignment.

If, however, it is not a mental illness, then what is it? For example, if it is a case of multiple souls inhabiting the same body naturally (not possession), then I would say each soul has their own alignment- the body is just a vessel.

If it is a case of possession, then I suppose it isn't really multiple personalities, rather multiple entities. Each entity would have their own alignment, but I would rule that prolonged exposure could corrupt the host soul/body.

Edit: Also, I am with Honest Tiefling on my initial reaction. Many professionals don't even think Dissociative Personality Disorder exists, and instead view it as a combination of sever Personality Disorders and compulsive lying.

junlogji
2017-02-26, 02:12 PM
Personally, I wouldn't allow it. Firstly, the disorder is poorly understood, even by professionals. I don't mind in theory if people want to explore mental disorders or different ways of thinking, but most of the time I have seen this happen it wasn't treated with respect or knowledge. Mostly it was treated as a way to make a character 'edgy' without really knowing anything about the disorder. I mean, how many people know that the very existence of Dissociative Personality Disorder is actually still debated?

thank you for your opinion

the disorder is poorly understood and controversial but regardless of that there are people who still act in those ways

people can do it poorly but people could do it well

interestingly you are stereotyping that most gamers use the disorder as a stereotype to make characters "edgy"


Secondly, alignment restricted classes tend to be restricted for reasons. Many of these reasons wouldn't apply. I sincerely doubt that a god would grant powers to someone suffering from trauma to this degree. If they did, they're kinda a jerkbag for granting powers to go fight to someone really in need of help. Or an idiot, if they couldn't keep tabs on their holy servants long enough to figure out what is happening. Alignment restrictions for non-supernatural reasons isn't my bag to begin with.

i am afraid you did not answer my question here

there are evil and neutral deities in most settings


The third issue I have is the same reason I won't allow child PCs...WHAT ARE YOU DOING ON THE BATTLEFIELD. Not only is it really dark to send people in need of severe mental help in dangerous situations, it does begin to stretch credibility for me if people in this situation are 100% as capable of their fellows. Sure, no one is perfect and many would experience trauma, but would someone with severe issues regarding their own sense of self really be able to function in these situations?

why are you assuming that all campaigns take place primarily in the battlefield

it is dark for people like that to be in violent situations but it can and has still happens

in a setting with supernatural powers i could see them being psionically or magically gifted as sorcerers or wilders

Red Fel
2017-02-26, 02:12 PM
Everything Tiefling said.

As a DM, my question is, "What is your motivation with this character?" There are several possibilities here. One, for example, is that the player is hoping to explore the horrific and humanizing effects of trauma and mental disorder on a character through a narrative medium. And that's great, but generally speaking, alignment systems are a poor choice for that. That's not a good fit for a D&D concept, for example; it's better in something like nWoD, where everyone is angsting about their respective traumas and questioning human nature and other boring stuff.

Another possibility is that the player just wants to play multiple characters. The answer to which is, "If I'm allowing you to play multiple characters, you're playing multiple characters, not one person who keeps switching out."

But the more likely answer is that this player is going to challenge the alignment system altogether. And maybe he or she won't be doing it to be deliberately disruptive, but in all likelihood, that's what the purpose is. "How can this character be Evil, when this particular personality never indulged in those horrific acts?" And the answer, again, is that the alignment system does not model this well, if at all.

Even setting aside the very real baggage that comes with psychological disorders and trauma, this simply doesn't work well. The alignment system is borked enough as is; throwing this in just further mucks it up. Play a game that better models it, if you must, but alignment systems aren't your friend here.

cobaltstarfire
2017-02-26, 02:12 PM
I've had a couple of very minor instances of dissociation, and while it briefly changed my awareness or somewhat how I thought/felt about certain things, it didn't really change how I behaved, usually it's just disorienting and confusing until it passes.

I dunno how it would be different for someone who strongly experiences dissociation, but I agree with Honest Tiefling, it'd probably end in becoming hamburger for someone trying to adventure...

junlogji
2017-02-26, 02:17 PM
I know it's tempting to say that having a ''mental illness is an awesome way to beat the alignment system and rules'', but it just would not work that way. It would be nice be (fake) being ''good'' most of the time, and then have the awesome excuse to be able to do any evil act and still ''be good''.

It would not work though. Even if it's ''another personality'' or whatever....it's still you. If a person is good all week, and just does a horrible act of pure evil all weekend...that person is evil. And the same is true for the personality person.

Alignment is the sum of everything about a person, so everything counts.

thank you for your opinions

i do not appreciate your false assumptions of my intentions

would an afflicted wererat character be evil if they did an evil act under the full moon against their will


Well. Alignment isn't an internal thing. It's something the planar powers that be assign you. So presumably, unless they were kind enough to split your actions between your different personalities, it would simply count all of the persons actions as your own.

Also, this is fantasy. Where people in need of severe mental help literally get reality bending powers from beyond the stars sometimes. See, Great Old One warlock.

thank you for your opinions

i thought that the power beyond the stars made them need severe mental help and not vice versa


Avoiding getting into any real-world implications, I think it depends on how multiple personalities works in your setting. It also has to deal with how alignment and the afterlife play into your setting. For example, if a person's physical body accompanies them in the afterlife, what happens if the person is destined for multiple different realms in the afterlife?

Here are my thoughts:

If it is a mental illness, I would say that it is independent of alignment. That leads into the followup question on how alignment works in your setting.


If behavior defines alignment, then all of the personalities would need to be balanced against one anothet and the "mean" set pf behaviors would determine alignment. Most probably Neutral on the Good/Evil axis, and probably Neutral leaning towards Chaotic on the Law/Chaos axis.

If motive, intent, or "soul/nature" detetmine alignment (alignment dictates behavior, rather than behavior dictates alignment), then I suppose the dominant personality determines alignment for the character, though they will often act outside of alignment.

If, however, it is not a mental illness, then what is it? For example, if it is a case of multiple souls inhabiting the same body naturally (not possession), then I would say each soul has their own alignment- the body is just a vessel.

If it is a case of possession, then I suppose it isn't really multiple personalities, rather multiple entities. Each entity would have their own alignment, but I would rule that prolonged exposure could corrupt the host soul/body.

thank you for your opinions

i do not really have any constructive criticisms

junlogji
2017-02-26, 02:21 PM
Everything Tiefling said.

As a DM, my question is, "What is your motivation with this character?" There are several possibilities here. One, for example, is that the player is hoping to explore the horrific and humanizing effects of trauma and mental disorder on a character through a narrative medium. And that's great, but generally speaking, alignment systems are a poor choice for that. That's not a good fit for a D&D concept, for example; it's better in something like nWoD, where everyone is angsting about their respective traumas and questioning human nature and other boring stuff.

Another possibility is that the player just wants to play multiple characters. The answer to which is, "If I'm allowing you to play multiple characters, you're playing multiple characters, not one person who keeps switching out."

But the more likely answer is that this player is going to challenge the alignment system altogether. And maybe he or she won't be doing it to be deliberately disruptive, but in all likelihood, that's what the purpose is. "How can this character be Evil, when this particular personality never indulged in those horrific acts?" And the answer, again, is that the alignment system does not model this well, if at all.

Even setting aside the very real baggage that comes with psychological disorders and trauma, this simply doesn't work well. The alignment system is borked enough as is; throwing this in just further mucks it up. Play a game that better models it, if you must, but alignment systems aren't your friend here.

thank you for your opinions

i think that categorization systems should be subservient to the experiences of the game and not vice versa


I've had a couple of very minor instances of dissociation, and while it briefly changed my awareness or somewhat how I thought/felt about certain things, it didn't really change how I behaved, usually it's just disorienting and confusing until it passes.

I dunno how it would be different for someone who strongly experiences dissociation, but I agree with Honest Tiefling, it'd probably end in becoming hamburger for someone trying to adventure...

i do not think that this kind of comment is relevant here

SethoMarkus
2017-02-26, 02:28 PM
i do not think that this kind of comment is relevant here

I'm sorry, but that may just be the most relevant comment of all. At least towards the end of contemplating the nature of such a disorder for use in a game.

Yora
2017-02-26, 02:35 PM
Erratic and compulsive behavior would be chaotic. If the character is mostly acting evil he'd be chaotic evil, otherwise chaotic neutral. (Could theoretically be chaotic good, but with someone suffering with severe delusions, overwhelmingly good behavior seems unlikely.)

Honest Tiefling
2017-02-26, 02:37 PM
the disorder is poorly understood and controversial but regardless of that there are people who still act in those ways

A little confused as to what you mean here. If you mean there are people who exist with these symptoms...Even that is debatable. Hence why there is concern over if the condition exists or not.


interestingly you are stereotyping that most gamers use the disorder as a stereotype to make characters "edgy"

ABSOLUTELY YES. Not arguing with that. I also stereotype people playing lesbian stripper ninjas. I also stereotype people playing 'nubile' characters. I still don't allow it.


i am afraid you did not answer my question here

there are evil and neutral deities in most settings

I think sending mentally ill people into dangerous situations is going to nudge a deity into both 'evil' and 'incompetent' territory in any game I run. It isn't even that common if it exists, why are you making someone with extreme trauma into your holy servant?


why are you assuming that all campaigns take place primarily in the battlefield

Because even if battlefield is a crummy way to put it, 100% of games I've been in are in dangerous situations where life is on the line. Even if you are not in an army, you're probably doing something someone with a lot of power doesn't like at all.


it is dark for people like that to be in violent situations but it can and has still happens

Child soldiers are a thing. Many things are a thing that I refuse to state on these forums. Doesn't mean I won't kick you out if you try to introduce it into my game if that is not appropriate to the tone or might squick people out.


in a setting with supernatural powers i could see them being psionically or magically gifted as sorcerers or wilders

If we are talking DnD terms...Not really. Firstly, insanity isn't a magical origin in published settings. Secondly, a loss of self means a loss of charisma, so you're rocking a 6 charisma sorcerer. Good job optimizing there. Also, YOU STILL HAVE A MENTAL DISORDER. FROM TRAUMA. The fact that this is a genuine impairment should still be considered a factor. It's not even a minor psychological issue.

Also, I really hate it when people pull the whole 'handicapped people have maaaaagical gifts' thing. Most of the time, it is a disorder. It sucks. Treat it with respect, including what it does and does not do, or don't do it at all. If you tell me your character has ADHD and therefore deserves a bonus to initiative or creativity, I will beat you with my book.

Darth Ultron
2017-02-26, 03:52 PM
would an afflicted wererat character be evil if they did an evil act under the full moon against their will


Yes.

Again, you can't be good all month, then go crazy evil for a couple days, then go back to work Monday and be all like "I'm good."

Yes it is a ''bad deal'' and ''not fair'', but then that is why lycanthrophy is a curse and not just ''A cool ability''.

Also...if you know that at midnight your going to go crazy evil and you ''can't control it'' and you just sit around and wait for it to happen....guess what that is an evil act right there....

Honest Tiefling
2017-02-26, 03:58 PM
Also...if you know that at midnight your going to go crazy evil and you ''can't control it'' and you just sit around and wait for it to happen....guess what that is an evil act right there....

Eh, I'd argue that it is no more evil then if someone mind controlled you into shoving some orphans, but I think this is a pretty valid point for potential suffers of the condition.

Darth Ultron
2017-02-26, 04:04 PM
Eh, I'd argue that it is no more evil then if someone mind controlled you into shoving some orphans, but I think this is a pretty valid point for potential suffers of the condition.

Mind control can get you forgiveness. You can be good, be mind controlled to evil, and then be freed and go back to being good....assuming you were a good innocent all along. But you can't ''zap'' yourself or let yourself get ''zapped'' and do evil and then get forgiveness. It has to be real.

But that is just if the mind control is just like ''you walk down the street and get zapped''....if your say, making a deal with a demon and get zapped....

SethoMarkus
2017-02-26, 04:25 PM
Mind control can get you forgiveness. You can be good, be mind controlled to evil, and then be freed and go back to being good....assuming you were a good innocent all along. But you can't ''zap'' yourself or let yourself get ''zapped'' and do evil and then get forgiveness. It has to be real.

But that is just if the mind control is just like ''you walk down the street and get zapped''....if your say, making a deal with a demon and get zapped....

It is getting off topic now, but now I am wondering about a lycantgrope oblivious of their condition? Often in folklore the afflicted retain no memories of their time while transformed. Does that naivete grant them a pardon for their actions? At least until such a time that the have adequate reason to believe they turn into a monster?

Keltest
2017-02-26, 05:31 PM
It is getting off topic now, but now I am wondering about a lycantgrope oblivious of their condition? Often in folklore the afflicted retain no memories of their time while transformed. Does that naivete grant them a pardon for their actions? At least until such a time that the have adequate reason to believe they turn into a monster?

If your lycanthropy is of the "loses control of oneself to what is functionally another being" variety, I would generally treat them as separate characters with their own alignments. Ditto with magical curses or other effects that force a literal separate personality into your body somehow. If your DM is onboard, you could even give the two people two different classes that earn XP at different rates, and switch out the mental (but not physical) stats depending on who is in charge. It could be an interesting character as long as the DM sets down solid rules for determining which personality (and thus skillset) is available.

But for nonmagical stuff like trauma induced disabilities... frankly, don't even go there. You are almost certainly not going to treat it respectfully or accurately, a person disabled to that degree really has no business adventuring anyway, and it is most likely just an excuse to get around the rules in some way due to how poorly the condition is understood. Theres just too much that can go wrong for me to feel comfortable even touching the subject in a game.

Darth Ultron
2017-02-26, 05:41 PM
It is getting off topic now,

Well....lycanthropy IS a type of dissociative identity disorder, right?




but now I am wondering about a lycantgrope oblivious of their condition? Often in folklore the afflicted retain no memories of their time while transformed. Does that naivete grant them a pardon for their actions? At least until such a time that the have adequate reason to believe they turn into a monster?

Again, if you are truly a helpless innocent ''for real'', then you can be forgiven. At least in the cosmic sense. The normal folks will still put you on trial for any crimes and/or burn you at the stake or such.

Most ''folklore'' does have the victim get clues that something is up...

veti
2017-02-26, 05:49 PM
Long, long time ago... I was playing in a party of 1st-level misfits and hoboes. Most of us had secrets of one sort or another. Me, my character was a cleric/illusionist, but I only admitted to the 'cleric' part of that identity, and made sure to keep my illusions well under the party's radar.

Anyways: one session, it was brought to my attention that one of my fellow PCs was a gibbering wreck. As I remember it, he had gone apart from the party and was basically curled up muttering to himself and crying. So, in my capacity as a cleric, I went and talked to him. It seemed his problem was overwhelming guilt, but I couldn't make out for what - he'd always seemed a decent enough sort - so I told him that confession (to a priest, viz. me) was good for the soul, and maybe I could help him.

Once the idea had sunk in, he liked it. Out came his confession: that sometimes, he seemed to become a completely different person, one who would act quite unlike his normal honest and compassionate self. He would do - things, which I don't think were ever enumerated in detail, but anyway, he thought they were pretty bad.

I listened, then told him that he was probably cursed, quite possibly possessed, and we should seek help for him at the next decent-sized temple. I also persuaded him to share his secret with another PC we both felt we could trust - then, the reasoning went, we could both keep an eye on him, and try to restrain him if we noticed him going loco. We got a new plot hook. He took some comfort from the prospect of "getting help", and I had the satisfaction of - well, having a plan to help. It was a win all round.

The "host" personality (yes, I know that's not proper terminology, I don't care) was and remained LG, but it was crippled by guilt over the actions of its other personality. I presume, if he'd been a paladin or monk, he would have lost those abilities the moment the guilt struck.

TL;DR: dissociative identity, assuming it's a real thing, is not a superpower. It's not something you enjoy. If you have it, it is the defining feature of your life, and you will most likely devote every waking minute to trying to get cured of it.

junlogji
2017-02-26, 08:33 PM
I'm sorry, but that may just be the most relevant comment of all. At least towards the end of contemplating the nature of such a disorder for use in a game.

unless they are diagnosed as such i do not care all of the evidence for the disorder indicates that it cannot come and go


Erratic and compulsive behavior would be chaotic. If the character is mostly acting evil he'd be chaotic evil, otherwise chaotic neutral. (Could theoretically be chaotic good, but with someone suffering with severe delusions, overwhelmingly good behavior seems unlikely.)

thank your for your opinion

that makes sense if you interpret chaotic that way


A little confused as to what you mean here. If you mean there are people who exist with these symptoms...Even that is debatable. Hence why there is concern over if the condition exists or not.

people who act as though they do exist


ABSOLUTELY YES. Not arguing with that. I also stereotype people playing lesbian stripper ninjas. I also stereotype people playing 'nubile' characters. I still don't allow it.

incredibly different things than what we are talking about


I think sending mentally ill people into dangerous situations is going to nudge a deity into both 'evil' and 'incompetent' territory in any game I run. It isn't even that common if it exists, why are you making someone with extreme trauma into your holy servant?

deities of madness


Because even if battlefield is a crummy way to put it, 100% of games I've been in are in dangerous situations where life is on the line. Even if you are not in an army, you're probably doing something someone with a lot of power doesn't like at all.

again just because it is bad does not mean it is not good for storytelling how could you have conflict if bad things did not happen


Child soldiers are a thing. Many things are a thing that I refuse to state on these forums. Doesn't mean I won't kick you out if you try to introduce it into my game if that is not appropriate to the tone or might squick people out.

that's your prerogative


If we are talking DnD terms...Not really. Firstly, insanity isn't a magical origin in published settings. Secondly, a loss of self means a loss of charisma, so you're rocking a 6 charisma sorcerer. Good job optimizing there. Also, YOU STILL HAVE A MENTAL DISORDER. FROM TRAUMA. The fact that this is a genuine impairment should still be considered a factor. It's not even a minor psychological issue.

wilders

is it really a loss of self


Also, I really hate it when people pull the whole 'handicapped people have maaaaagical gifts' thing. Most of the time, it is a disorder. It sucks. Treat it with respect, including what it does and does not do, or don't do it at all. If you tell me your character has ADHD and therefore deserves a bonus to initiative or creativity, I will beat you with my book.

i do not care

i think it lines up well with lovecraftian horror which i enjoy

the percy jackson series which i do not enjoy is based on a premise that some adhd people have magic abilities

maybe you are trying to make something that is purely meant as an interesting story dynamic into a ethics issue


Yes.

Again, you can't be good all month, then go crazy evil for a couple days, then go back to work Monday and be all like "I'm good."

Yes it is a ''bad deal'' and ''not fair'', but then that is why lycanthrophy is a curse and not just ''A cool ability''.

Also...if you know that at midnight your going to go crazy evil and you ''can't control it'' and you just sit around and wait for it to happen....guess what that is an evil act right there....

many afflicted lycanthropes do not know in many setting and have no input over their actions therefore they are not responsible


Eh, I'd argue that it is no more evil then if someone mind controlled you into shoving some orphans, but I think this is a pretty valid point for potential suffers of the condition.

i agree


Mind control can get you forgiveness. You can be good, be mind controlled to evil, and then be freed and go back to being good....assuming you were a good innocent all along. But you can't ''zap'' yourself or let yourself get ''zapped'' and do evil and then get forgiveness. It has to be real.

But that is just if the mind control is just like ''you walk down the street and get zapped''....if your say, making a deal with a demon and get zapped....

who said the lycanthrope let themself become one


It is getting off topic now, but now I am wondering about a lycantgrope oblivious of their condition? Often in folklore the afflicted retain no memories of their time while transformed. Does that naivete grant them a pardon for their actions? At least until such a time that the have adequate reason to believe they turn into a monster?

i think that they can not be held accountable for something outside of their control


If your lycanthropy is of the "loses control of oneself to what is functionally another being" variety, I would generally treat them as separate characters with their own alignments. Ditto with magical curses or other effects that force a literal separate personality into your body somehow. If your DM is onboard, you could even give the two people two different classes that earn XP at different rates, and switch out the mental (but not physical) stats depending on who is in charge. It could be an interesting character as long as the DM sets down solid rules for determining which personality (and thus skillset) is available.

i think the ideas for the stats is over-complicated


But for nonmagical stuff like trauma induced disabilities... frankly, don't even go there. You are almost certainly not going to treat it respectfully or accurately, a person disabled to that degree really has no business adventuring anyway, and it is most likely just an excuse to get around the rules in some way due to how poorly the condition is understood. Theres just too much that can go wrong for me to feel comfortable even touching the subject in a game.

i dislike your assumptions about the motives behind such a character

is anyone going to portray anything or anyone accurately aside from themselves


Well....lycanthropy IS a type of dissociative identity disorder, right?

in a way



Again, if you are truly a helpless innocent ''for real'', then you can be forgiven. At least in the cosmic sense. The normal folks will still put you on trial for any crimes and/or burn you at the stake or such.

in which system of fiction


Most ''folklore'' does have the victim get clues that something is up...

i wouldn't know


Long, long time ago... I was playing in a party of 1st-level misfits and hoboes. Most of us had secrets of one sort or another. Me, my character was a cleric/illusionist, but I only admitted to the 'cleric' part of that identity, and made sure to keep my illusions well under the party's radar.

Anyways: one session, it was brought to my attention that one of my fellow PCs was a gibbering wreck. As I remember it, he had gone apart from the party and was basically curled up muttering to himself and crying. So, in my capacity as a cleric, I went and talked to him. It seemed his problem was overwhelming guilt, but I couldn't make out for what - he'd always seemed a decent enough sort - so I told him that confession (to a priest, viz. me) was good for the soul, and maybe I could help him.

Once the idea had sunk in, he liked it. Out came his confession: that sometimes, he seemed to become a completely different person, one who would act quite unlike his normal honest and compassionate self. He would do - things, which I don't think were ever enumerated in detail, but anyway, he thought they were pretty bad.

I listened, then told him that he was probably cursed, quite possibly possessed, and we should seek help for him at the next decent-sized temple. I also persuaded him to share his secret with another PC we both felt we could trust - then, the reasoning went, we could both keep an eye on him, and try to restrain him if we noticed him going loco. We got a new plot hook. He took some comfort from the prospect of "getting help", and I had the satisfaction of - well, having a plan to help. It was a win all round.

The "host" personality (yes, I know that's not proper terminology, I don't care) was and remained LG, but it was crippled by guilt over the actions of its other personality. I presume, if he'd been a paladin or monk, he would have lost those abilities the moment the guilt struck.

TL;DR: dissociative identity, assuming it's a real thing, is not a superpower. It's not something you enjoy. If you have it, it is the defining feature of your life, and you will most likely devote every waking minute to trying to get cured of it.

good anecdote

Honest Tiefling
2017-02-26, 08:46 PM
i do not care

i think it lines up well with lovecraftian horror which i enjoy

the percy jackson series which i do not enjoy is based on a premise that some adhd people have magic abilities

maybe you are trying to make something that is purely meant as an interesting story dynamic into a ethics issue

Maybe? I mean, I think it's going to annoy the stuffing out of your party, which is why I mention it.

I have never read the Percy Jackson books. Maybe they did it. Maybe they didn't. But that doesn't mean I think the approach is a good one, nor one I would recommend.

However, I don't...Really think your approach is Lovecraftian. Trauma is an aspect of horror...But if you are benefiting or not being heavily impaired by the trauma, that's sorta taking away the horror, isn't it? It's like getting your arm chopped off and shrugging it off. Appropriate for some games, but I wouldn't really call it lovecraftian or horror, just...Silly. That's like wandering up to Cthulhu and kicking him in the tentacles. The insanity isn't exactly stopping you, just making you stronger in a way, especially if you gain class levels from being mentally ill.


i dislike your assumptions about the motives behind such a character

is anyone going to portray anything or anyone accurately aside from themselves

Maybe, maybe not. It doesn't matter, as long as the intention is respect and enjoyment for others. Treating a mental illness as a superpower is likely going to be neither. Hence why Lesbian Stripper Ninjas get banned, because it usually doesn't involved anything resembling respect and it's creepy. (Also, women in my groups can throw better then I can dodge.)

cobaltstarfire
2017-02-26, 09:26 PM
unless they are diagnosed as such i do not care all of the evidence for the disorder indicates that it cannot come and go




I never said I had the disorder, I said I have experienced dissociation on several occasions, and offered my experience on how it felt. It was legitimate enough of a problem that I was taken off of the medication I was on at the time. Like I said, I don't know how it may compare with someone who has a serious problem with disassociation. I felt it was relevant to the discussion, because it never changed the way I outwardly behaved other than becoming disoriented.

icefractal
2017-02-26, 09:35 PM
It sounds like what you really want is "Cinematic MPD". Which could even fairly easily exist in D&D, what with possession, soul-shenanigans, psychic stuff, etc.

But focusing on a RL condition like DID just for the entertainment value comes off a bit tacky/insensitive. Like debating the merits of having AIDS-infected berserkers on the front line of your fantasy army to scare opposing forces would. (I'm saying not to do that, just to clarify for everyone).


As far as the more general question of how actions taken while not in your correct state of mind count toward alignment. For 3E specifically -

Based on several things in the books, I believe that, as far as the default goes:
1) Alignment is an external tag assigned by some cosmic machinery.
2) The machinery does not automatically correct for factors like being in a different state on mind, unless the difference involves a separate soul (possession), or possibly direct mind control (this one is treated inconsistently in different books).
3) The Atonement spell triggers an alignment verification check on the target, which clears up those kind of errors.
4) Atonement also can pull in a deity to intercede and change even correctly-verified alignment (if the XP cost is paid), but it doesn't always do this.

junlogji
2017-02-26, 10:33 PM
Maybe? I mean, I think it's going to annoy the stuffing out of your party, which is why I mention it.

I have never read the Percy Jackson books. Maybe they did it. Maybe they didn't. But that doesn't mean I think the approach is a good one, nor one I would recommend.

However, I don't...Really think your approach is Lovecraftian. Trauma is an aspect of horror...But if you are benefiting or not being heavily impaired by the trauma, that's sorta taking away the horror, isn't it? It's like getting your arm chopped off and shrugging it off. Appropriate for some games, but I wouldn't really call it lovecraftian or horror, just...Silly. That's like wandering up to Cthulhu and kicking him in the tentacles. The insanity isn't exactly stopping you, just making you stronger in a way, especially if you gain class levels from being mentally ill.

Maybe, maybe not. It doesn't matter, as long as the intention is respect and enjoyment for others. Treating a mental illness as a superpower is likely going to be neither. Hence why Lesbian Stripper Ninjas get banned, because it usually doesn't involved anything resembling respect and it's creepy. (Also, women in my groups can throw better then I can dodge.)

where are you getting this notion that i think the disorder is a superpower


It sounds like what you really want is "Cinematic MPD". Which could even fairly easily exist in D&D, what with possession, soul-shenanigans, psychic stuff, etc.

But focusing on a RL condition like DID just for the entertainment value comes off a bit tacky/insensitive. Like debating the merits of having AIDS-infected berserkers on the front line of your fantasy army to scare opposing forces would. (I'm saying not to do that, just to clarify for everyone).


As far as the more general question of how actions taken while not in your correct state of mind count toward alignment. For 3E specifically -

Based on several things in the books, I believe that, as far as the default goes:
1) Alignment is an external tag assigned by some cosmic machinery.
2) The machinery does not automatically correct for factors like being in a different state on mind, unless the difference involves a separate soul (possession), or possibly direct mind control (this one is treated inconsistently in different books).
3) The Atonement spell triggers an alignment verification check on the target, which clears up those kind of errors.
4) Atonement also can pull in a deity to intercede and change even correctly-verified alignment (if the XP cost is paid), but it doesn't always do this.

i am well aware of what the disorder is as opposed to how cinema tends to portray it

there is a difference between aiding a disorder or disease to a character because you think it can contribute to the idea of a character and adding it to a character to make a insensitive joke or stereotype

The Vanishing Hitchhiker
2017-02-26, 11:58 PM
I think sending mentally ill people into dangerous situations is going to nudge a deity into both 'evil' and 'incompetent' territory in any game I run. It isn't even that common if it exists, why are you making someone with extreme trauma into your holy servant?

I gotta argue with this point real quick: what about mentally ill people who are already in dangerous situations, trying to escape further trauma? What kind of deity would refuse granting divine gifts to someone in need?

Anyway, mechanically, using multiple alignments seems like such an obvious attempt to exploit that disallowing it makes a lot of sense, or at least prevents a lot of complications. Off the top of my head, I'd average out the total effect of all those alignments: chaotic neutral, if there's no way to predict what identity will be in control when, and how a switch could occur. If it's more predictable than that, or the different identities have less disparate personalities (say, they're all good or neutral), adjust that average alignment accordingly. But use that same alignment for the whole shebang. Might be a gross simplification, and won't work in all instances, but that's game mechanics for ya.

Mechalich
2017-02-27, 12:57 AM
d20 does not play well with realistic depictions of mental illness. For one reason, because alignment doesn't consider brain chemistry and therefore anyone with severe debilitating mental effects gets shunted into chaotic neutral. For another reason, because much mental illnesses can be magically cured. Negative mental conditions exist: there are spells like feeblemind and insanity that can impose them, and there are also spells like Heal and Restoration that can remove them. That totally changes the implications of severe mental illness in the world.

Additionally, characters with a severe mental illness who are abiding by the rules correctly are probably representing that through an extremely low wisdom score - meaning something below 6. That is a brutal limitation in actual play.

Mastikator
2017-02-27, 01:31 AM
As a DM:
Having multiple personalities each with their own alignment would break the whole afterlife thing. For that reason alone I'd say alignment comes from the soul moreso than the mind and anything that contradicts that is banned.

As a player:
I think I would find it confusing and annoying if another player did this, it's enough if you play as one compelling character.

PinkSpray
2017-02-27, 01:43 AM
Cool idea. Obviously each persona should have his/her/its own alignment as it indicates how the character would normally behave. Different behavior means different alignment. What's really crucial is that the other players and GM should be okay with it.

On alignment-restricted classes, say a LG Paladin has a LE persona that shows up when he/she/it is stressed. Depending on the god maybe certain abilities are lost when the maligned persona shows? Prevents exploitation while allowing character exploration. Some of the best fiction involves DID (Fight Club is a classic example).

Run with it but again make sure the group is comfortable with the idea.

Reboot
2017-02-27, 01:52 AM
It sounds like what you really want is "Cinematic MPD". Which could even fairly easily exist in D&D, what with possession, soul-shenanigans, psychic stuff, etc.

Yeah. I think if you REALLY want to do this, the best method is some sort of possession, with two explicitly separate people stuck in one body (i.e., one or both having been born in an entirely separate body from the shared body and ending up jammed into that body together somehow), rather than anything resembling RL mental illness.

Mechalich
2017-02-27, 02:09 AM
Yeah. I think if you REALLY want to do this, the best method is some sort of possession, with two explicitly separate people stuck in one body (i.e., one or both having been born in an entirely separate body from the shared body and ending up jammed into that body together somehow), rather than anything resembling RL mental illness.

There are other possibilities too, D&D being a fantasy. For example, to explore the issue of shifting identity through a character you could play as a Changeling (Eberron, not PF) or even a full-on doppleganger. You could go really in-depth with regards to having a telepathic familiar (especially if you choose something of high intelligence like an imp) and its influence. I think there are even a handful of obscure monsters that actually do have composite souls (though most of them are awful nasties like the Void Wraith) lying around somewhere - I feel like there was something about a psionic race of triplets with a shared life force in Dragon at some point.

Honest Tiefling
2017-02-27, 12:24 PM
I gotta argue with this point real quick: what about mentally ill people who are already in dangerous situations, trying to escape further trauma? What kind of deity would refuse granting divine gifts to someone in need?

That does make sense, but there's some issues. Firstly, the rest of the party might be running TOWARDS the danger, while the character should be going in the opposite direction. Also, that's not what a paladin is, but it could be represented with a different class. Also...Given how severe this condition is, wouldn't it make more sense to give the powers to someone to aid them? I do feel bad for suggesting that, but if someone is in a lot of trouble, maybe tossing powers at them and expecting them to fix it alone is a bad idea. That's like giving powers to an injured person missing an arm


where are you getting this notion that i think the disorder is a superpower

Because the other side is gaining powers the first personality doesn't have, and you did mention getting sorcerer or wilder levels from it. If someone gets powers or levels from crazy, that's basically getting super powers.


i am well aware of what the disorder is as opposed to how cinema tends to portray it

there is a difference between aiding a disorder or disease to a character because you think it can contribute to the idea of a character and adding it to a character to make a insensitive joke or stereotype

Except you ARE going for the cinematic version. One reason the disorder got renamed is that there aren't actually multiple personalities...So...One alignment.

The possession idea is I think what you really want, and is thematically appropriate. I think magical insanity tends to dodge issues regarding portraying mental disorders, which might annoy people at the table a lot less, depending on the group.

Mastikator
2017-02-27, 01:53 PM
The possession idea is I think what you really want, and is thematically appropriate. I think magical insanity tends to dodge issues regarding portraying mental disorders, which might annoy people at the table a lot less, depending on the group.

Although the possession idea is much much better it's still not really... good, at best you end up half arsing two characters, at worse you end up with one character that is actively dangerous to the other PCs and another that is fine. Entities capable and willing to possess someone usually have malicious intentions. Possession is more akin to a curse than a character trait.

Keltest
2017-02-27, 01:56 PM
Although the possession idea is much much better it's still not really... good, at best you end up half arsing two characters, at worse you end up with one character that is actively dangerous to the other PCs and another that is fine. Entities capable and willing to possess someone usually have malicious intentions. Possession is more akin to a curse than a character trait.

Sure it is, but as long as the group is on board with it, curses and other such character problems can make for an interesting roleplaying experience. Not to mention a fun session.

The Vanishing Hitchhiker
2017-02-27, 02:22 PM
That does make sense, but there's some issues. Firstly, the rest of the party might be running TOWARDS the danger, while the character should be going in the opposite direction. Also, that's not what a paladin is, but it could be represented with a different class. Also...Given how severe this condition is, wouldn't it make more sense to give the powers to someone to aid them? I do feel bad for suggesting that, but if someone is in a lot of trouble, maybe tossing powers at them and expecting them to fix it alone is a bad idea. That's like giving powers to an injured person missing an arm

Danger absolutely can be all around, and just because any given PC should avoid danger doesn't mean they will. A party itself exists so the characters can all aid each other, with the skills they each have; solving a problem alone can be unwise for anyone. Likewise, giving powers to someone missing an arm doesn't sound objectionable at all—maybe they can't sword-n-shield, or cast certain spells while holding their weapon, but they'll adapt, as optimally as they can.

Degrees of onset, severity and managing symptoms do vary though... There could be an adventurer out there who's already become a paladin and only now is encountering circumstances he can't cope with. Some deities might have foreseen that, but it's not every god's domain. A lot of them don't even seem to filter out the obvious jerks, at that. Still, for any scenario involving abrupt shifts in behavior, paladin is the least flexible choice as far as potential plot ramifications go, regardless of how they got there.

Speaking of other classes, "clerics must be within one step of their gods' alignment" means some deities could be compatible with certain permutations of alignments, at least in that instance. I guess most other headaches could be eliminated by always being very clear on what alignment is being used. While a swap could be a reaction to certain things, houserule that it couldn't happen quickly enough to prevent an action keyed to the previous alignment from taking effect. Some tables might still find that more trouble than its worth.

veti
2017-02-27, 02:58 PM
ABSOLUTELY YES. Not arguing with that. I also stereotype people playing lesbian stripper ninjas. I also stereotype people playing 'nubile' characters. I still don't allow it.

Fun fact: most PCs are "nubile". All the word means is "sexually mature".


I think sending mentally ill people into dangerous situations is going to nudge a deity into both 'evil' and 'incompetent' territory in any game I run. It isn't even that common if it exists, why are you making someone with extreme trauma into your holy servant?

PC exceptionalism. There just aren't a lot of people to choose from. As a deity, same as a PC, you play the cards you're dealt; if it just so happens that your highest-level follower around here is disabled, then you may give them extra support as needed, but you can't afford to just give them indefinite leave, because there's stuff that needs doing. Before then.


If we are talking DnD terms...Not really. Firstly, insanity isn't a magical origin in published settings. Secondly, a loss of self means a loss of charisma, so you're rocking a 6 charisma sorcerer. Good job optimizing there. Also, YOU STILL HAVE A MENTAL DISORDER. FROM TRAUMA. The fact that this is a genuine impairment should still be considered a factor. It's not even a minor psychological issue.

This is the key point. It's, at best, a disability. It should make the character significantly harder to play, and completely impossible to optimise.

If the character doesn't have an overriding imperative to get cured, as quickly and surely as possible, then you're playing it wrong.

junlogji
2017-02-27, 03:23 PM
Because the other side is gaining powers the first personality doesn't have, and you did mention getting sorcerer or wilder levels from it. If someone gets powers or levels from crazy, that's basically getting super powers.


wrong

i asked if that is what people thought no more and no less



Except you ARE going for the cinematic version. One reason the disorder got renamed is that there aren't actually multiple personalities...So...One alignment.


http://media1.giphy.com/media/ztpMY1t5VYWlO/giphy.gif

are you purposefully lying or are you making rash assumptions about me

either way it helps no one to do either of them

Keltest
2017-02-27, 03:26 PM
wrong

i asked if that is what people thought no more and no less





http://media1.giphy.com/media/ztpMY1t5VYWlO/giphy.gif

are you purposefully lying or are you making rash assumptions about me

either way it helps no one to do either of them

The actual disorder does not result in a fully separate personality with its own opinions, thoughts, and behavior. The basic premise of the thread is based around an additional fully separate personality with its own opinions, thoughts and behavior. Ergo, cinematic version.

PinkSpray
2017-02-27, 04:23 PM
Alignment is not representative of personality, but how a character would behave in most situations. DID is very much about behavior shifts. So different alignments DO make sense. Personality is not behavior.

Jormengand
2017-02-27, 04:59 PM
As someone with literal multiple personalities, I don't buy that the disorder doesn't exist, that it makes you unsuitable to be in dangerous places, or that literal multiple personalities is "Cinematic". It probably doesn't also provide you with massively different alignments - people with the same basic level of intelligence, who were brought up with the exact same values, and who have access to the exact same philosophies from which to choose, will ultimately have very similar beliefs and act on them similarly.

EDIT: Other things I don't buy: Three of me "Need help" to deal with the fact that they exist, giving me responsibility or power would be irresponsible, people with DID can't function in combat, other personalities are still you and you're responsible for the actions they took (which is the last word in "Stop hitting yourself!"), I have 6 charisma (for reasons still unexplained), it has no benefits, it "Disables" be, that I need or want to be "Cured" of it, I also have 6 wisdom (for reasons also still unexplained), and that having three other people to help me think and concentrate has no upsides.

Honest Tiefling
2017-02-27, 05:12 PM
As someone with literal multiple personalities, I don't buy that the disorder doesn't exist, that it makes you unsuitable to be in dangerous places, or that literal multiple personalities is "Cinematic". It probably doesn't also provide you with massively different alignments - people with the same basic level of intelligence, who were brought up with the exact same values, and who have access to the exact same philosophies from which to choose, will ultimately have very similar beliefs and act on them similarly.

Hey, there's a reason it's controversial, it is badly understood by professionals. However...I would like to point out that the title of the thread is addressing a DISORDER. If you wish to identify with several different personalities and function just fine, are you really under the umbrella of the disorder itself? From what I understand, the disorder is very genuinely serious and does impair functioning, hence the concern of things because very dark in tone and squicking the party.

tomandtish
2017-02-27, 05:29 PM
First big disclaimer: In the end, the only thing that is going to matter is what the player and the GM in this particular situation can agree on. Alignment may be "objective" within a setting, but it's obviously subjective in how we all interpret it. My LG/CE is not the same as yours, and isn't the same as The Giant's.

The big question to me is going to be what awareness (if any) the "main" personality has of any other personalities. Lycanthropy might actually be a good example to use depending on how it works.

Let's take John the LG fighter. After a fight with a rather large wolf, he continues on his way. But as days pass and the full moon gets closer, he begins feeling restless. He decides to go to town to see some friends, arriving the afternoon before the night of the full moon, planning on spending an evening with companions.

He wakes up in the morning covered in blood. His friends are dead, as are several other people he doesn't know. He seems unharmed, although his clothing is shredded, perhaps by weapons?

Note: In my world at this moment John has not had an alignment change. He's not aware of his actions, they weren't under his control. It effectively is the same as a mental illness.

However, if John puts together that he's become a werewolf then things change. He's now responsible for making sure he doesn't hurt anyone. This means seeking out a cure, and (if necessary) making sure he's either isolated or restrained when the next full moon rolls around. Failure to do these things may very well result in alignment change (oh well, nothing I can do about it).

Very much like a person with uncontrolled epilepsy. You don't get in trouble for driving and having a seizure if you never had one before. But you certainly do if you know you have uncontrolled seizures and continue driving.






the percy jackson series which i do not enjoy is based on a premise that some adhd people have magic abilities


Actually, that sounds a bit like mixing up cause and effect.




"Diagnosed with dyslexia. Probably ADHD, too."

I tried to swallow my embarrassment. "What does that have to do with anything?"

"Taken together, it's almost a sure sign. The letters float off the page when you read, right? That's because your mind is hardwired for ancient Greek. And the ADHD — you're impulsive, can't sit still in the classroom. That's your battlefield reflexes. In a real fight, they'd keep you alive. As for the
attention problems, that's because you see too much, Percy, not too little. Your senses are better than a regular mortal's. Of course the
teachers want you medicated. Most of them are monsters. They don't want you seeing them for what they are."

In short, they get those diagnoses because their powers cause similar behavior and symptoms. It's like saying a person suffers from a mental illness when they hear voices, when they are actually a telepath who can't keep other thoughts out. What they are doing may duplicate a condition, but doesn't have the same cause and isn't the same as the condition.

Jormengand
2017-02-27, 05:38 PM
Hey, there's a reason it's controversial, it is badly understood by professionals. However...I would like to point out that the title of the thread is addressing a DISORDER. If you wish to identify with several different personalities and function just fine, are you really under the umbrella of the disorder itself? From what I understand, the disorder is very genuinely serious and does impair functioning, hence the concern of things because very dark in tone and squicking the party.

What is and isn't a disorder is very politicised, so I won't go into it, but other "Disorders" that some medical professionals recognise currently include colour synesthesia (little effect with possible, but almost certainly irrelevant upsides), asperger syndrome and savant syndrome (moderate effect with noticeable upsides), paedophilia (very little effect, especially since it's easy enough not to act on) and gender dysphoria (sucks, but people who suffer from it are actively deployed as we speak). Whether someone is actually impaired by a disorder has nothing to do with whether or not it reduces their effectiveness (the current salient wisdom is - when translated to informal English - that it has to be something to do with the mind, has to suck to have, and has to not be an understandable response to an event).

Having "Cinematic" DID is an entirely fine and accurate depiction of something that at least exists, and if you want to give them "superpower disorder" powers, I even made a class for that (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?427056-You-have-no-chance-against-me-cos-I-m-actually-four-blokes!-%283-5-class-PEACH%29) (incidentally, the answer to the OP's question is "Within one step of overall alignment", apparently). What annoys me more than "Superpower disorders" is the "People with mental disorders need to be "Cured" of who they are" line. I'm not alone in that; people have spoken and even made songs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hO9qTXrXoe8) about the fact that the person without the disorder isn't even them. Let people have their int 18 aspies (Hi! I've been diagnosed with Asperger Syndrome, and while I know that IQ isn't an entirely accurate measure of intelligence, I do know that I have an 18 when you compare the 3d6 probability of rolling an 18 to the percentiles of each IQ!) and DID characters with different powers (Some of us are actually better at some things than others) and so forth - hells, even FATAL's "R-word strength" almost exists, due to the fact that some conditions deal mental damage but can increase physical strength.

What I hate, though, is the Jekyll-and-Hyde related idea that one of those personalities has to be uncontrollably evil, because otherwise it "Wouldn't be a real disorder" or just without any explanation, or that all autistic people have to be completely unable to interact socially.

Incidentlally, a lot of these comments seem like they'd fit depersonalisation disorder (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depersonalization_disorder) better than DID (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissociative_identity_disorder).

"Depersonalization disorder (DPD), also known as depersonalization-derealization syndrome, is a mental disorder in which the person has persistent or recurrent feelings of depersonalization and/or derealization." - sounds like "Not actually multiple personalities"
"Dissociative identity disorder (DID), previously known as multiple personality disorder (MPD),[1] is a mental disorder characterized by at least two distinct and relatively enduring identities or dissociated personality states that alternately show in a person's behavior, accompanied by memory impairment for important information not explained by ordinary forgetfulness. These symptoms are not accounted for by substance abuse, seizures, other medical conditions, nor by imaginative play in children." - definitely "Actually multiple personalitieis"

Honest Tiefling
2017-02-27, 05:51 PM
What is and isn't a disorder is very politicised, so I won't go into it, but other "Disorders" that some medical professionals recognise currently include colour synesthesia (little effect with possible, but almost certainly irrelevant upsides), asperger syndrome and savant syndrome (moderate effect with noticeable upsides), paedophilia (very little effect, especially since it's easy enough not to act on) and gender dysphoria (sucks, but people who suffer from it are actively deployed as we speak). Whether someone is actually impaired by a disorder has nothing to do with whether or not it reduces their effectiveness (the current salient wisdom is - when translated to informal English - that it has to be something to do with the mind, has to suck to have, and has to not be an understandable response to an event).

While I think this is very true, I am still not sure if I would equate your own experiences with someone experiencing massive trauma. I think there does need to be a difference between 'minor problem or not a problem at all' type of 'disorders' and 'this is a huge massive problem doubled down with trauma'. (If your experiences ARE equatable, I am so sorry to hear that and will let the matter drop.) If the personalities are unaware of each other, I think that is leaning more to 'massive problem' territory.


What annoys me more than "Superpower disorders" is the "People with mental disorders need to be "Cured" of who they are" line. I'm not alone in that; people have spoken and even made songs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hO9qTXrXoe8) about the fact that the person without the disorder isn't even them. Let people have their int 18 aspies (Hi! I've been diagnosed with Asperger Syndrome, and while I know that IQ isn't an entirely accurate measure of intelligence, I do know that I have an 18 when you compare the 3d6 probability of rolling an 18 to the percentiles of each IQ!) and DID characters with different powers (Some of us are actually better at some things than others) and so forth - hells, even FATAL's "R-word strength" almost exists, due to the fact that some conditions deal mental damage but can increase physical strength.

I guess my perspective is that I am at the other end. If I could chop off a foot, maybe an arm, to get rid of my own ADHD, I'd seriously consider it. (And I don't get the 18 INT! Bummer.) I don't want to be reminded of how people want to call me 'gifted' for a condition that can lead to death or serious issues. I am not highly attracted to characters who are defined by their disorders, nor do I really want to hear how a character succeeded BECAUSE of their disorder, not in spite of it. I want to hear about what THEY do, not the disorder.

Also, I still maintain that unless you know the people VERY WELL at your table, DO NOT attempt this, hence my advice (and personal statements that I probably wouldn't allow it), because I think it's unsuited for most tables. Especially if the other personality is doing things to make a paladin fall, which probably aren't very nice things. It needs to be handled delicately and with respect.

If you make a R-word strength character and get kicked in the gonads for it, well that's not MY fault. No one told you to do that.

Mark Hall
2017-02-27, 06:09 PM
1st edition actually had rules for this.


Schizophrenia: This form of insanity has the well-known ”split personality” trait. From 1 to 4 separate and distinct personalities can exist in the afflicted -~base the number upon the severity of the insanity. Likewise, the difference from one personality to the next should reflect the severity of the affliction. Each ”new” personality will be different in alignment, goals, and preferences. (A very severe case might have a different class also but without coincidental possession, the new personality emerging will not have the actual abilities he or
she may think that he or she possesses.) The onset of schizophrenia is random, 1 in 6 per day, with a like chance of a new (or return to the
old) personality emerging. However, whenever a stress situation - decision, attack, etc. - arises, the 1 in 6 chance of schizophrenia striking must be checked every round in which the stress continues.

Mind you, they're pretty horrible rules, based off the highly unreliable DSM-II ("The level of reliability is no better than fair for psychosis and schizophrenia and is poor for the remaining categories", per Fleiss and Spitzer), but the consideration in 1e was that someone with MPD might have different alignment, and perhaps even a different class.

Jormengand
2017-02-27, 06:10 PM
The problem, I suppose, is that some people in real life are defined by their disorders. If three-quarters of me didn't exist, would I be in any way be the same person? If I lost the things that three people can do, would I really have the same skill-set? Almost everything I do is something I could have succeeded at only because I have three other people helping me. I hate, hate, hate the connotations that I have a "Problem" which needs to be "Fixed".

Similarly, everything a person with asperger syndrome can or cannot do is probably because of, in spite of, or BOTH the disorder. It improves or dulls any action they could possibly wish to take.

Personally, I would love to see a character with a mental disorder played well - and my definition of "Played well" as someone who actually has the freaking disorder in question seems to differ massively from the opinion of dozens of people who read some article about a study with sample size seventeen or watched a movie showing a "Real view" of people with DID while actually just daemonising it (incidentally, if you're planning on watching Split, please don't) - because it means actual representation, which, much like any minority, people with DID massively lack (and if someone tells you that you shouldn't be playing an LGBT character "Unless everyone at the table is okay with it", please throw the nearest book about representation at them).

EDIT: The "Schizophrenia" (which to be clear is a different disorder) presented in 1e is actually perhaps a better representation of DID than most people would think of when they thought about it, so there's that.

Honest Tiefling
2017-02-27, 06:18 PM
...because it means actual representation, which, much like any minority, people with DID massively lack (and if someone tells you that you shouldn't be playing an LGBT character "Unless everyone at the table is okay with it", please throw the nearest book about representation at them).

EDIT: The "Schizophrenia" (which to be clear is a different disorder) presented in 1e is actually perhaps a better representation of DID than most people would think of when they thought about it, so there's that.

I've known several people with schizophrenia, and they are NOT raging murder monsters, so I can certainly sympathize with that. Yuck.

As for the LGBT spectrum, I think 'wanting to bang or not bang people of a particular gender' is a pretty easy concept...That people mess up. Hence why I have compared disrespectful representations of mental disorders with the Lesbian Stripper Ninja. Some people need their gay character privileges taken away from them.

And I really wish I could ensure that I never see another 'gypsy' character at my table. Maybe I need to sacrifice something to some dark lord or whatever. Any suggestions?

Jormengand
2017-02-27, 06:27 PM
I've known several people with schizophrenia, and they are NOT raging murder monsters, so I can certainly sympathize with that. Yuck.

As for the LGBT spectrum, I think 'wanting to bang or not bang people of a particular gender' is a pretty easy concept...That people mess up. Hence why I have compared disrespectful representations of mental disorders with the Lesbian Stripper Ninja. Some people need their gay character privileges taken away from them.

And I really wish I could ensure that I never see another 'gypsy' character at my table. Maybe I need to sacrifice something to some dark lord or whatever. Any suggestions?

Same TBH.

I think that "Here's what you're doing wrong and how you can improve on it" is leagues better than "I will stop you. I don't care how, I will stop you." But we've had something very close to this conversation - eightMonthOldAlignmentThread.get(9); (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?489707-What-Alignment-is-this-Character&p=20833673&viewfull=1#post20833673) - and my belief that helping people do better is almost always a superior idea to trying to stop them at all on the basis that they might continue to do badly won't change easily.

I don't think I'd really mind Gypsy characters. And again, my line is going to be "Do your research" not "Don't do this thing at all".

Honest Tiefling
2017-02-27, 06:31 PM
I don't think I'd really mind Gypsy characters. And again, my line is going to be "Do your research" not "Don't do this thing at all".

If you are calling the character a gypsy, then you probably haven't done the research.

But perhaps my approach was too strong. In a particular group, this idea could work. But you are going to need the cooperation of your DM and other people at the table. And probably assigning one personality an alignment that contradicts a paladin's oath is a bad, bad, bad idea that's going to need a LOT of work to pull off.

Jormengand
2017-02-27, 06:48 PM
If you are calling the character a gypsy, then you probably haven't done the research.

Well, I don't personally know but have heard of people who are, and call themselves, gypsies. (There's also the Inuit-Eskimo thing where most people who are "Not actually Eskimos, they're Inuits" (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EskimosArentReal) wouldn't mind being called Eskimos but would be at least a little irritated if you called them Inuits). Interestingly, and more on-topic, this plays into the whole thing we had with the "Popular misconceptions" about DID actually being a better representation of what it is than the "Actual reality of it" (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RealityIsUnrealistic).

You're welcome for the TVtropes links.

Keltest
2017-02-27, 08:47 PM
Well, I don't personally know but have heard of people who are, and call themselves, gypsies. (There's also the Inuit-Eskimo thing where most people who are "Not actually Eskimos, they're Inuits" (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EskimosArentReal) wouldn't mind being called Eskimos but would be at least a little irritated if you called them Inuits). Interestingly, and more on-topic, this plays into the whole thing we had with the "Popular misconceptions" about DID actually being a better representation of what it is than the "Actual reality of it" (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RealityIsUnrealistic).

You're welcome for the TVtropes links.

You fiend. I barely escaped with my free time intact.

Anyway, they probably wouldn't slap you if you called them Gypsies, but the name has, shall we say, a negative history that one would probably be hesitant to deliberately invoke if they knew all of it, similar to racial slurs.

Bohandas
2017-02-28, 09:02 AM
The third issue I have is the same reason I won't allow child PCs

Not even an elf who's the oldest character in the party?

Bohandas
2017-02-28, 09:35 AM
In short, they get those diagnoses because their powers cause similar behavior and symptoms. It's like saying a person suffers from a mental illness when they hear voices, when they are actually a telepath who can't keep other thoughts out. What they are doing may duplicate a condition, but doesn't have the same cause and isn't the same as the condition.

This was also the case with most of the "insane" characters in the original cthulhu mythos stories.

Mastikator
2017-02-28, 01:44 PM
Sure it is, but as long as the group is on board with it, curses and other such character problems can make for an interesting roleplaying experience. Not to mention a fun session.

Fun if you're expecting a PVP game like Paranoia. Disastrous if you're not.

Telok
2017-02-28, 05:11 PM
Two things:
1. You're trying to push D&D alignment beyond the simple "cops & robbers" paradigm that it supports. The alignment system fails at any level of complexity beyond that.

2. Nubile lesbian stripper ninja motorcycle princess fire wookee is totally a legit character concept if you have a multipage back story written in Tolken Elvish and Klingon with at least two Dr. Who references.

junlogji
2017-02-28, 07:07 PM
The actual disorder does not result in a fully separate personality with its own opinions, thoughts, and behavior. The basic premise of the thread is based around an additional fully separate personality with its own opinions, thoughts and behavior. Ergo, cinematic version.

i know


As someone with literal multiple personalities, I don't buy that the disorder doesn't exist, that it makes you unsuitable to be in dangerous places, or that literal multiple personalities is "Cinematic". It probably doesn't also provide you with massively different alignments - people with the same basic level of intelligence, who were brought up with the exact same values, and who have access to the exact same philosophies from which to choose, will ultimately have very similar beliefs and act on them similarly.

EDIT: Other things I don't buy: Three of me "Need help" to deal with the fact that they exist, giving me responsibility or power would be irresponsible, people with DID can't function in combat, other personalities are still you and you're responsible for the actions they took (which is the last word in "Stop hitting yourself!"), I have 6 charisma (for reasons still unexplained), it has no benefits, it "Disables" be, that I need or want to be "Cured" of it, I also have 6 wisdom (for reasons also still unexplained), and that having three other people to help me think and concentrate has no upsides.

frankly i only find cases that have been diagnosed to be relevant

this is all only anecdotal information


Two things:
1. You're trying to push D&D alignment beyond the simple "cops & robbers" paradigm that it supports. The alignment system fails at any level of complexity beyond that.

2. Nubile lesbian stripper ninja motorcycle princess fire wookee is totally a legit character concept if you have a multipage back story written in Tolken Elvish and Klingon with at least two Dr. Who references.

1) i love how many of you took what you wanted to see and leave the rest

2) no it is not

Honest Tiefling
2017-02-28, 07:12 PM
frankly i only find cases that have been diagnosed to be relevant

this is all only anecdotal information

So you will only take into account diagnosed accounts of a condition that many psychologists don't think exist? At that point you might as well just do whatever.

And what happens if you have a person like Jormengand or cobaltstarfire sit at your table?

GrayGriffin
2017-02-28, 09:25 PM
{{scrubbed}}

junlogji
2017-02-28, 09:54 PM
So you will only take into account diagnosed accounts of a condition that many psychologists don't think exist? At that point you might as well just do whatever.

it is easy for people to lie or "self-diagnose"


And what happens if you have a person like Jormengand or cobaltstarfire sit at your table?

why would something special happen

Honest Tiefling
2017-02-28, 10:12 PM
{{scrubbed}}

I think I have a good chance. I mean, I might be an overweight short guy, but they don't exist.

Perhaps I should have phrased that better, but if you have a really severe mental condition as a result of extreme trauma, your chances of survival aren't good if you are fighting dragons. Then again, most people's chances aren't good.

ImNotTrevor
2017-02-28, 10:19 PM
I think this thread is rapidly reaching that tipping point where nobody will be communicating or changing their mind but lots of people will be very angry and offense will be taken

I'm gonna suggest that participants in the thread take a chill pill before the thread gets locked down (if discussion of the original topic is even worthwhile at this point.)

GrayGriffin
2017-02-28, 10:37 PM
I think I have a good chance. I mean, I might be an overweight short guy, but they don't exist.

Perhaps I should have phrased that better, but if you have a really severe mental condition as a result of extreme trauma, your chances of survival aren't good if you are fighting dragons. Then again, most people's chances aren't good.

Oh fine then. This autistic girl can probably kick your ass. And if their trauma doesn't impede their ability for judgement I don't see why you think you should be the one making decisions for them.

junlogji
2017-02-28, 10:41 PM
I think I have a good chance. I mean, I might be an overweight short guy, but they don't exist.

Perhaps I should have phrased that better, but if you have a really severe mental condition as a result of extreme trauma, your chances of survival aren't good if you are fighting dragons. Then again, most people's chances aren't good.


Oh fine then. This autistic girl can probably kick your ass. And if their trauma doesn't impede their ability for judgement I don't see why you think you should be the one making decisions for them.

this is not being constructive

can you please stop this conversation or take it to pm

Max_Killjoy
2017-02-28, 10:44 PM
Some people need their gay character privileges taken away from them.


Someone needs to sig that...

(I hope it's not offensive to anyone that when I clicked on the "show first unread post arrow" and that comment was what popped up, I found it inexplicably humorous... I don't mean it to be offensive.)

Honest Tiefling
2017-02-28, 11:05 PM
Oh fine then. This autistic girl can probably kick your ass.

Yeah, probably. But it's very rare to for women to touch me. :smallfrown:

junlogji
2017-02-28, 11:11 PM
Yeah, probably. But it's very rare to for women to touch me. :smallfrown:

please read this post


this is not being constructive

can you please stop this conversation or take it to pm

GrayGriffin
2017-03-01, 12:28 AM
Yeah, probably. But it's very rare to for women to touch me. :smallfrown:

Yeah, why don't you also respond to the second part of my post, where I comment on how mental trauma doesn't automatically make a character unsuitable for a game?

Honest Tiefling
2017-03-01, 12:43 AM
Yeah, why don't you also respond to the second part of my post, where I comment on how mental trauma doesn't automatically make a character unsuitable for a game?

I think it can. If you are playing a kick in the door, hack-n-slash, or light-hearted game, it is going to be near certain it is unsuitable. If you are playing a character that has been heavily affected by trauma to develop distinct personalities and be completely unaware of this condition, I do not think it makes much narrative sense that they are dealing with this condition in a way conducive to survival in a life or death situation. People with trauma being unable to cope is a darker side of reality that many people might not want to face in their fantasy elf games. Trauma itself is rarely addressed. It is like I mentioned before, a darker side of reality that can squick people out as much as darker sides of warfare and combat such as child soldiers.

Keep in mind, that while I am willing to admit that there are going to be cases of people with mental disorders functioning just fine, even in these types of situations, I do not think that a person who is violating their most deeply held beliefs due to this trauma is going to be in the stable camp of things, such as the aforementioned paladin. It's like comparing someone adjusting to the loss of a leg versus a cyborg who can shoot lasers and puppies out of a sweet prosthetic. A little different.

I don't think it's wrong to have concerns that a character with trauma might not perform well. It's a serious condition, and should be treated as such.

I will admit to a knee-jerk reaction, but I don't think it's wrong to assume that many others have had very positive or PC experiences with people playing mental disorders. Such as the previously mentioned F.A.T.A.L, which...Kinda sums up a lot of experiences I've had with people wanting 'cool' or 'edgy' characters. If you are going to do it, do it with respect to the condition and those who may or may not be at the table. I do think that anyone wanting to play this is probably going to need to be able to have a discussion with a DM (and possibly players) on how this is to be handled well.

The Vanishing Hitchhiker
2017-03-01, 01:58 AM
I think it can. If you are playing a kick in the door, hack-n-slash, or light-hearted game, it is going to be near certain it is unsuitable. If you are playing a character that has been heavily affected by trauma to develop distinct personalities and be completely unaware of this condition, I do not think it makes much narrative sense that they are dealing with this condition in a way conducive to survival in a life or death situation. People with trauma being unable to cope is a darker side of reality that many people might not want to face in their fantasy elf games. Trauma itself is rarely addressed. It is like I mentioned before, a darker side of reality that can squick people out as much as darker sides of warfare and combat such as child soldiers.

Keep in mind, that while I am willing to admit that there are going to be cases of people with mental disorders functioning just fine, even in these types of situations, I do not think that a person who is violating their most deeply held beliefs due to this trauma is going to be in the stable camp of things, such as the aforementioned paladin. It's like comparing someone adjusting to the loss of a leg versus a cyborg who can shoot lasers and puppies out of a sweet prosthetic. A little different.

I don't think it's wrong to have concerns that a character with trauma might not perform well. It's a serious condition, and should be treated as such.

I will admit to a knee-jerk reaction, but I don't think it's wrong to assume that many others have had very positive or PC experiences with people playing mental disorders. Such as the previously mentioned F.A.T.A.L, which...Kinda sums up a lot of experiences I've had with people wanting 'cool' or 'edgy' characters. If you are going to do it, do it with respect to the condition and those who may or may not be at the table. I do think that anyone wanting to play this is probably going to need to be able to have a discussion with a DM (and possibly players) on how this is to be handled well.

Discussing tone with your table is always a good idea, but I will also admit a knee-jerk reaction to the blanket idea that mentally ill people are too incompetent, edgy, and/or "squicky" to exist in any narrative not centered around their difficulties. :smallconfused: Total excision can be another form of disrespect. Explicit misery and ignorant irreverence are not the only options, even if much of fiction has been slow to catch up. Fantasy elf games are also a great place to pretend people who acted a little "off" according to the other medically untrained villagers weren't abandoned in the woods or stuck pitching hay their entire lives. Less dark than reality, sometimes.

Jormengand
2017-03-01, 06:06 AM
it is easy for people to lie or "self-diagnose"

A lot of conditions, the diagnosis is performed by the doctor asking "Do you have this thing" and the person saying "Yes" and the doctor saying "Okay, here's a diagnosis for this thing". Like, I was diagnosed with depression, anxiety and gender dysphoria just because I said I had them (in fact, I was actually diagnosed with gender dysphoria by a heart surgeon because I asked them how my heart condition would interact with the operation if I got it, though I'd already been diagnosed long before that point). If I wanted to get a diagnosis of DID, I'd probably just have to talk to a doctor about the fact that I am literally four people (or rather, that would be all I had to do if people weren't wary of diagnosing it because of the controversy over whether I exist or not).

I'm pretty sure you're not going to get anyone in this thread who's actually been diagnosed with it, though.