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View Full Version : Pathfinder Hybrid Class: Overlord (PEACH)



Wartex1
2017-03-02, 04:12 PM
Hello Playground. I'm an experienced homebrewer for 5th Edition, but I've recently got into Pathfinder and realized that there are very few ways to use arcane spells in heavy armor that aren't super clunky or gish-based. So, to fill this gap, I decided to create a Hybrid of the Fighter and Witch, combining the former's Armor Training features with the latter's Hexes and Spellcasting in order to create a very durable spellcaster. Mixing in some other flavorful features such as a non-lethal spell bonus (since what kind of evil Overlord doesn't leave the heroes alive during their first encounter) and allowing you to cast spells as pseudo-Attacks of Opportunity, I feel this draft of the Overlord is ready for critique.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Cytn9BOvsgDJ7p8jpIJVoApMH8BZu_TY8F3b4Ovvmw4/edit?usp=sharing

Note: There may be some formatting problems, as whenever I use the computer I normally use to work, the formatting ends up being different than how it shows up on other computers or when downloaded as a pdf. To compensate, I adjusted it so that it appears correctly as a pdf, so if the formatting seems off to you in the browser, downloading it as a pdf should fix it.

EDIT: Every spell and hex listed on the document, along with the Witch's familiar, are all on d20pfsrd.com, and the Overlord's spell list is primarily based off of the Witch spell list, but with additions from the Cleric, Magus, and Wizard spell lists when appropriate.

khadgar567
2017-03-02, 11:27 PM
Nice work mate but forced familiar may not the thing overlord wants. He leads mooks to victory not chasing enigmatic kitty orders so you might want to either remove it or replace with some sort of moral leash companion.

Wartex1
2017-03-03, 07:38 AM
The reason I kept the familiar is that in a lot of fiction, the Overlord tends to have some sort of "evil pet," be it a cat, a dragon, a snake, etc.

Though I might make an archetype that replaces the familiar with a humanoid cohort so players can have a favorite underling.

khadgar567
2017-03-03, 07:46 AM
arch type will be good option cuz between some thing acts as stat pet and geniue usefull mook i will be taking usefull mook instead of stat pet and can i ask why witch as one of the components rather then sorcerer or wizard which gives more omp then witch to the class and makes more f ing sense then witch for awesome arcane might in full armored glory

Morphic tide
2017-03-03, 09:33 AM
So, at a glance, this is a gish that uses no spells to get their required defenses and has great abilities for subduing enemies non-lethally. They can get their armor bonus to SR, which can become quite large with the way Pathfinder lets you stack armor bonuses, and they can get a rather large armor bonus off of in-class features. Although you seem to have forgotten that spell resistance is a d20 roll, given that the class lacks a +10 default bonus to SR to make up for the average roll of a d20.

As for how they accomplish the goal of working as a boss type character, they do it quite well. It's a solid class for a low-level boss, and the abilities keep them able to be the main class of a boss for mid level characters. It's also a great melee class for a tank, as it has things that make them a good enough threat to be worth the enemy's effort of fighting. Hexes also let them get the badly needed abilities to keep up with the other classes at later levels, like Flight and self supplied Healing.

They have the two important saves as strong saves, a lot of abilities boosting their defensive strength, 3/4ths BAB and generally look like someone took the defensive side of Fighter and improved on it, then slapped it on part of a Witch. It's basically exactly right for your admitted goal of relying on spells for offensive purposes, although I'd prefer it to just use the full Witch spell list with exceptions rather than having a spell list to itself. Future proofs the class a bit better by sharing in any new Witch spells and makes the Witch influence more obvious than just having Hexes and the casting method.

Morphic tide
2017-03-03, 10:36 AM
arch type will be good option cuz between some thing acts as stat pet and geniue usefull mook i will be taking usefull mook instead of stat pet and can i ask why witch as one of the components rather then sorcerer or wizard which gives more omp then witch to the class and makes more f ing sense then witch for awesome arcane might in full armored glory

Well, the Witch component probably has to do with the whole "dark pact" idea. PF lacks a Warlock class, and Witch has abilities that are very, very important to have kept separate from the spells under Hexes. Which, themselves, fit the Evil Overlord thing better than just being a half caster.

As for familiars being a "stat pet," there are Gdocs things bigger than this class describing all the things you can do to get a familiar and how to use them. Familiars are powerful in Pathfinder, because of all the tricks you can pull with them. Why, there's even a feat named Die for your Master that lets your Familiar(provided you made it into a Tumor Familiar previously) sacrifice itself to save your life.

If you want to replace the Familiar with something, replace it with a Bond ability. Which the class probably should have had to start with, but only Wizard and Druid have Bond abilities as full casters, of which the Wizard's Arcane Bond works much, much better for this. Then, you can have the choice of a Familiar or magically improving your armor without prerequisites in the way for the base class, with a choice between a Cohort, as in the Leadership feat's primary minion, and a Wondrous Item-eligible object for a more minion focused version of the class.

Going over more about this potential setup, the minion focused archetype could have Leadership supporting abilities, including Leadership proper as a feat option, replace the stuff the Overlord gets for personal offensive power to have minion bonuses, possibly with Teamwork feats that bypass the restriction for granted Betrayal feats and other effects like Betrayal feats. The minions will jump in front of the Overlord's fireballs to intimidate enemies and the minions will like it. Yes, this is an actual thing...

Other archetypes could swap the type of boss the character is. Invincible armored juggernaut that deals damage with arcane supremacy is fine, but what about the ones who take up martial studies because magic runs out on the offensive side that focus on defensive magic? You can have undead armies as a separate archetype from the Leadership focused archetype, you can have a summoning focused archetype, you can have a lot of archetypes focused on how they lead their army and how they get their army.

The core thing that has to stay the same is simply that the Overlord be the center of what's going on. They are no Necromancer, hiding in their keep and sneaking through the night to rob corpses from graves. They are a leader of undead hordes that they make from the armies smashed against their might. They are no demon binder who sends their fiends after foes. They will charge at the enemy battle line and summon devils to assist in slaughtering their foes as they outdo every horrid monster they summon. They don't sit at the back of the formations planning out feints and flanking, they will lead the charge themselves, with blade and magic.

When it comes to intrigue, Enchantment spells to twist the minds of their political opponents and immense skill at duels, bolstered by well-hidden spellwork to make their foes clumsy and foolish as they improve their own dueling skills with magic, all the while they are lying and seeing through the lies of lesser men. Possibly with Zone of Truth to disable lies of others altogether. They, of course, know how to make said zone not apply to them. So they are still a monster in combat, but they are more focused on one-on-one combat than the generalized fighting skills of the "generic" Overlord.

Large scale warfare? Half the possible archetypes have good excuse for abilities supporting that! Raise the dead during the battle to turn the tides, summon fiends to bring fire and terror, inspire horridly effective cruelty in your troops and more. And you are very much a caster focused on Evocation spells, so you can throw Cones of Cold and Fireballs to just shatter formations personally.

khadgar567
2017-03-03, 11:12 AM
Well, the Witch component probably has to do with the whole "dark pact" idea. PF lacks a Warlock class, and Witch has abilities that are very, very important to have kept separate from the spells under Hexes. Which, themselves, fit the Evil Overlord thing better than just being a half caster.

As for familiars being a "stat pet," there are Gdocs things bigger than this class describing all the things you can do to get a familiar and how to use them. Familiars are powerful in Pathfinder, because of all the tricks you can pull with them. Why, there's even a feat named Die for your Master that lets your Familiar(provided you made it into a Tumor Familiar previously) sacrifice itself to save your life.

If you want to replace the Familiar with something, replace it with a Bond ability. Which the class probably should have had to start with, but only Wizard and Druid have Bond abilities as full casters, of which the Wizard's Arcane Bond works much, much better for this. Then, you can have the choice of a Familiar or magically improving your armor without prerequisites in the way for the base class, with a choice between a Cohort, as in the Leadership feat's primary minion, and a Wondrous Item-eligible object for a more minion focused version of the class.

Going over more about this potential setup, the minion focused archetype could have Leadership supporting abilities, including Leadership proper as a feat option, replace the stuff the Overlord gets for personal offensive power to have minion bonuses, possibly with Teamwork feats that bypass the restriction for granted Betrayal feats and other effects like Betrayal feats. The minions will jump in front of the Overlord's fireballs to intimidate enemies and the minions will like it. Yes, this is an actual thing...

Other archetypes could swap the type of boss the character is. Invincible armored juggernaut that deals damage with arcane supremacy is fine, but what about the ones who take up martial studies because magic runs out on the offensive side that focus on defensive magic? You can have undead armies as a separate archetype from the Leadership focused archetype, you can have a summoning focused archetype, you can have a lot of archetypes focused on how they lead their army and how they get their army.

The core thing that has to stay the same is simply that the Overlord be the center of what's going on. They are no Necromancer, hiding in their keep and sneaking through the night to rob corpses from graves. They are a leader of undead hordes that they make from the armies smashed against their might. They are no demon binder who sends their fiends after foes. They will charge at the enemy battle line and summon devils to assist in slaughtering their foes as they outdo every horrid monster they summon. They don't sit at the back of the formations planning out feints and flanking, they will lead the charge themselves, with blade and magic.

When it comes to intrigue, Enchantment spells to twist the minds of their political opponents and immense skill at duels, bolstered by well-hidden spellwork to make their foes clumsy and foolish as they improve their own dueling skills with magic, all the while they are lying and seeing through the lies of lesser men. Possibly with Zone of Truth to disable lies of others altogether. They, of course, know how to make said zone not apply to them. So they are still a monster in combat, but they are more focused on one-on-one combat than the generalized fighting skills of the "generic" Overlord.

Large scale warfare? Half the possible archetypes have good excuse for abilities supporting that! Raise the dead during the battle to turn the tides, summon fiends to bring fire and terror, inspire horridly effective cruelty in your troops and more. And you are very much a caster focused on Evocation spells, so you can throw Cones of Cold and Fireballs to just shatter formations personally.
yep. This is what the real overlord looks like in real life not semi armored clumsy caster that thinks he is even a underlord.

Wartex1
2017-03-03, 04:14 PM
The reason why I neglected the default 10+ SR in the features was because I didn't want the feature to be too powerful, and it's really only there so that there's a defense against touch spells. Because of that, I might just change it so that it adds a bonus to touch AC instead.

As for the spell list, it has a ton of stuff from Magus and Cleric as well like the Wall spells and whatnot.

Morphic tide
2017-03-03, 05:09 PM
The reason why I neglected the default 10+ SR in the features was because I didn't want the feature to be too powerful, and it's really only there so that there's a defense against touch spells. Because of that, I might just change it so that it adds a bonus to touch AC instead.

As for the spell list, it has a ton of stuff from Magus and Cleric as well like the Wall spells and whatnot.

That default is what makes SR worth using, otherwise the d20 roll with make it useless. Having a base of 6-8 would make the class able to deal with spells in general in a useful manner. And mentioning the exceptions is exactly what I was getting at. "All Witch spells, except as noted here:" followed by listing only the stuff from other classes, keeping the list short and down to the essentials. This is a Witch/Fighter hybrid, so it should only have utterly needed spells from other classes in the base version of the class.

Wartex1
2017-03-03, 09:58 PM
Part of the Hybrid class philosophy is to deliberately stray from the original ones and only use them as a basis, allowing the Hybrid class to form its own identity.

This is what makes the best Hybrid classes (Brawler, Investigator, and DDS' Luchador) the best.

It's a Witch/Fighter hybrid, but it's neither a Witch nor a Fighter. It's something else, and it needed a lot of support from other spell lists to make it that way, namely because the Witch list is extremely particular and sorely lacking in many respects.

I will add a base SR though.

inuyasha
2017-03-03, 10:23 PM
I really like this idea. This is a prime example of a good hybrid class in my opinion, because it takes two classes that clash, and it turns them into something strange that still works, much like the Bloodrager.

I don't know if this is a good suggestion or not, but if I were to use this, I'd almost want to allow them to take Improved Familiar as a hex starting at [insert appropriate level] for the whole idea of the Familiar being a demon [or insert different creature here] all along to guide the Overlord along the path of combat and bloodshed.

Do you plan to add any archetypes for this class? One that adds some ranger/hunter aspects in at the cost of some armor training would make for a good patron-invested-scout sort of thing.

Wartex1
2017-03-03, 10:33 PM
I do plan on making some archetypes. One's that I had previously considered while making the class were simple ones that traded some Hexes for Wizard bonus feats/discoveries, one that traded the familiar and level-appropriate class features for Sorcerer bloodlines+bonus spells, one that traded Imposing Presence/Majesty for some Paladin auras, and one that traded either some Hexes or the Merciful spell stuff for crafting stuff.

I'll probably also make a Necromancy focused one, a cohort-focused one (I don't think I'll make one focused solely around the Leadership feats because those are so strong already and can easily be taken without an archetype), and a more scout-ish one that doesn't get the ability to ignore ASF in heavy armor in exchange for some more appropriate skills (faster movement maybe? Camouflage?).

Though, things might take a while because of Breath of the Wild and life.

Morphic tide
2017-03-04, 12:08 AM
Part of the Hybrid class philosophy is to deliberately stray from the original ones and only use them as a basis, allowing the Hybrid class to form its own identity.

This is what makes the best Hybrid classes (Brawler, Investigator, and DDS' Luchador) the best.

It's a Witch/Fighter hybrid, but it's neither a Witch nor a Fighter. It's something else, and it needed a lot of support from other spell lists to make it that way, namely because the Witch list is extremely particular and sorely lacking in many respects.

I will add a base SR though.

I still prefer the condensing of the spell list that comes with "all Witch spells, except as follows:" over having the entire spell list written out. Then you can just type out the non-Witch spells.

And I, personally, came up with the concept of an alternate version of Bloodrager that focuses on the often ignored Totem powers that Barbarians can get. As well as actually typed out a probably less broken Wizard/Sorcerer hybrid class than Archanist that I'm still waiting for comments on. And had ideas for alternate versions of several other hybrid classes.

Really, the two of us have fairly different ideas for what a hybrid class should be. I think they should be merging the fluff and/or mechanics of the two classes in a way that makes the end result less crazy. You seem to think that a hybrid class needs to jump off to the side and take only core stuff from the classes it's based on and run off with the idea.

Speaking of which, what I'd actually want from a Witch/Fighter would be a gish that uses magic to get the save or suck spells and buffs Martials need to be effective on their own, with self-sourced magical healing. Basically, being the stuff that Martials tend to need from casters out of Witch, using the Fighter to be a martial that flatly requires the stuff.

Oh, a fun Witch spell to focus an archetype on: Alchemical Tinkering. It lets you transform a firearm or alchemical item into one of equal or lesser cost. Who needs Weapon Training, I can have literally every gun in the game simply by having the most expensive one.

Really, Witches have a lot of good spells for Martial support, from save-or-suck to buffs to summons to armor bonuses and much, much more past that. One can have a mounted charger using Witch spells thanks to Mount. They have spells to increase attack reach, weapon creation, spell failure chance infliction for verbal components, changing the appearance of weapons, debuff prevention, debuff curing, healing, forcing enemies into melee, free Tanglefoot bags, crit fishing support and much, much more. Oh, that's all 1st level spells, there's probably worse for later levels.

So, a Witch that has good Martial power of their own is a complete monster.

CartmanTuttle
2017-03-05, 06:05 AM
I like the class. It seems like something that could be really fun to add to a game, especially for a villain.

Wartex1
2017-03-05, 11:27 AM
Does anyone have any specific recommendations or adjustments to existing features? Anything from wording adjustments to balancing of overly strong or weak abilities.

Current edits I plan on making to the existing chassis:
- Add base SR to that Mage's Armor Training option
- Add a clause that makes the abilities specific to Overlord spells
- Add a Major Hex that grants Improved Familiar with a small extra bonus (maybe have it ignore alignment restrictions or something) or a standard Hex which "levels up" to Improved Familiar like how the Flight Hex levels up (though this might be an archetype)

As for the possibility of a Witch/Fighter hybrid being more of a martial gish, part of the reason why I deliberately ignored that is because there are already several Hexblade conversions which do the same thing as well as other official gish options, particularly the Hexcrafter Magus.

Wartex1
2017-03-07, 10:46 AM
After some brainstorming and a bit of editing, I have come up with several more archetype concepts, making the current list:

- Titan Scholar: Wizard-like archetype which gets bonus metamagic feats and discoveries
- Blood Juggernaut: Sorcerer-like archetype which prepares spells without a familiar and gets bloodline powers and bonus spells
- Majestic Auror: Archetype which trades the Imposing Presence/Majesty feature with appropriate Paladin Auras
- Craftsmage: Crafting archetype which gets free crafting feats as well as bonuses related to crafting
- Underlord: Necromancy-based archetype which may include full or partial lichdom
- Metalclad Master: Archetype which trades the familiar for a favored cohort
- Ruler from the Shadows: Scout-ish archetype that trades heavy armor for appropriate skills (requested, but I'm not sure how to make it more thematic)
- Beastkeeper: Familiar-focused archetype which trades some Hexes for a familiar that becomes much stronger with time
- Icon Beholder: Artifact archetype which trades the familiar and some other features for a special totem or something which the Overlord uses to prepare spells, with later abilities improving the durability and utility of the totem (You can keep it far away and still prepare spells, but if you wear it on you, you get special bonuses).

Better names for any of these would be appreciated.

khadgar567
2017-03-07, 11:00 AM
Is metal clad master and blood juggernaught stack

Morphic tide
2017-03-07, 11:41 AM
After some brainstorming and a bit of editing, I have come up with several more archetype concepts, making the current list:

- Titan Scholar: Wizard-like archetype which gets bonus metamagic feats and discoveries
- Blood Juggernaut: Sorcerer-like archetype which prepares spells without a familiar and gets bloodline powers and bonus spells
- Majestic Auror: Archetype which trades the Imposing Presence/Majesty feature with appropriate Paladin Auras
- Craftsmage: Crafting archetype which gets free crafting feats as well as bonuses related to crafting
- Underlord: Necromancy-based archetype which may include full or partial lichdom
- Metalclad Master: Archetype which trades the familiar for a favored cohort
- Ruler from the Shadows: Scout-ish archetype that trades heavy armor for appropriate skills (requested, but I'm not sure how to make it more thematic)
- Beastkeeper: Familiar-focused archetype which trades some Hexes for a familiar that becomes much stronger with time
- Icon Beholder: Artifact archetype which trades the familiar and some other features for a special totem or something which the Overlord uses to prepare spells, with later abilities improving the durability and utility of the totem (You can keep it far away and still prepare spells, but if you wear it on you, you get special bonuses).

Better names for any of these would be appreciated.

I don't have better ideas for names, but for mechanics I have some ideas for some of them.

First, to make it all easier to work with, replace some of the available Hexes with Bonus Feats, making the Fighter influence stronger by making Overlord eligible for Fighter feats and adding a touch more versatility of build. You can get Extra Hex for the same number of feats and Hexes, or you can have more feats with less Hexes. This way, the archetypes can add things to choose with Bonus Feats rather than having to replace actual features.

Icon Beholder/Craftsmage: Don't have them separate, make them the same thing. Take a look at the 3.5 Kensai or some other class with an inherent magic item that progresses with level, then convert to a GP limit of enhancements on the item, with clear wording for what happens with limited use enhancements. Then, have them get the crafting feats as bonus feat options and replace Arcane Opportunist with some sort of item variant of it. For another feature, I'd swap either Mage's Armor Training or the Intimidate stuff for crafting features.

Titan Scholar: You can replace The Long Game, The Long Gamble and The Long Gambit with metamagic functions, possibly selecting a metamagic feat from a list for each of the three stages of the ability on top of whatever metamagic functions you go with. I'd make it compatible with the merged Icon Beholder/Craftsmage because you need metamagic feats to get metamagic into items.

Beastkeeper: Have it be an Animal Companion that fulfils the role of the standard Overlord's Familiar for casting, so that it starts off useful and has rules which give the raw numbers needed to be combat viable. This makes it much easier to focus on the special tricks you want. One thing you might do is give it abilities based on how many spells of certain types it has "in" it, or scale abilities with the highest level of spells in certain categories. For example, getting SR equal to the number of Evocation spells you have, without the default, letting you get massive SR values at the cost of dumping a lot of stuff into getting Evocation spells, possibly having a maximum based on the highest level Evocation spell you "know."

Wartex1
2017-03-07, 01:41 PM
I've been doing some mechanical brainstorming on some of the archetypes, particularly the Beastkeeper. I'm thinking something between a Druid's Animal Companion and a Summoner's Eidolon. The Animal Companion provides an excellent base, but it limits the Overlord from having the more "traditional" evil pets like Manticores or lesser Dragons.

Maybe it could use the Animal Companion table for the purpose of HD, saves, BAB, etc., but using the Eidolon base forms for starting ability scores, movement speeds, and base evolutions.

Then I'd replace either the Merciful spell stuff or some Hexes (or both) for a few points for evolving the companion as one would an Eidolon, maybe ending up with 15 or so points by the end. Conceptually, this would be reflected as the Overlord constantly experimenting on their "pet" in order to make it the fiercest fighting machine ever.

For alternative mechanics, I could just give the Overlord the Summoner's Eidolon, using something like half-Overlord level (changing to something like Overlord level-3 at Level 7 or so to prevent lagging behind too much) so that it doesn't overshadow the Summoner's Eidolon. There would also be some other changes to better fit the fluff as well.

EDIT: As for the Craftsmage/Icon Beholder archetype, I'm thinking of giving it Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Magic Arms and Armor (though that is already given by one of the armor training options), and Craft Construct. Furthermore, I plan on giving the archetype some abilities to get around some crafting restrictions on Craft Construct (such as nearly every construct requiring the ability to cast Limited Wish, but there's no way for the class to know this spell). Another potential ability is cutting crafting time and/or cost in half. Do you think that would work?

ZippoMoon
2017-04-03, 01:53 PM
I like what I'm seeing here but what we really need is an archetype that trades in the hex's for martial weapon proficiency, a magic gauntlet familiar, and a hoard of fanatically loyal minions that come in four different colors. (http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/overlord/images/e/eb/Overlord_Minions.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20110826124639)