New Guns - Old West

[quinron]

There's too much of a gap, both in power and in technology, between the Renaissance and modern firearms listed in the DMG. I've made a handful of new guns to bring the technology and power forward, but not too far.

Handguns


Dragon
2d4 piercing
Ammunition (range 10/30), loading, scattershot (10 ft.)


Pepperbox
1d6 piercing
Ammunition (20/60), reloading (6 shots), special


Pistol*
1d8 piercing
Ammunition (30/90), light, loading


Pistol, dueling
1d10 piercing
Ammunition (20/60), light, loading


Pistol, heavy
1d10 piercing
Ammunition (30/90), loading


Pistol, holdout
1d6 piercing
Ammunition (20/60), light, loading, special


Revolver
1d8 piercing
Ammunition (30/90), light, reloading (6 shots)


*This weapon's stats are the same as those listed on DMG p.268.

Long Guns


Elephant gun
2d8 piercing
Ammunition (range 50/150), heavy, loading, two-handed


Musket
1d10 piercing
Ammunition (40/120), loading, two-handed


Repeating rifle
1d10 piercing
Ammunition (range 60/180), reloading (6 shots), two-handed


Rifle
1d12 piercing
Ammunition (range 60/180), loading, two-handed


Sniper rifle
1d12 piercing
Ammunition (120/360), heavy, loading, two-handed



Scattergun


Blunderbuss
2d6 piercing
Ammunition (10/30), loading, scattershot (10 ft.), two-handed


Coach gun
2d8 piercing
Ammunition (20/60), heavy, loading, scattershot (20 ft.), two-handed


Shotgun
2d8 piercing
Ammunition (30/90), heavy, loading, two-handed


Shotgun, double-barreled
2d8 piercing
Ammunition (range 30/90), heavy, reloading (2 shots), two-handed


Volley gun
2d6 piercing
Ammunition (10/30), loading, two-handed



Pepperbox. Each time you fire the pepperbox, you must use a free hand to rotate the next barrel into firing position.
Holdout Pistol. You have advantage on Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) checks made to conceal a holdout pistol on your person.
Volley Gun. Loading and firing a volley gun requires 5 bullets.
Scattershot. As an action, you load and fire shot, rather than bullets or shells. The shot scatters in a cone, the size of which is listed in the weapon's description. Each target in the cone must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw (DC = 8 + your Dexterity modifier + your proficiency bonus if you are proficient with the weapon) or take damage as if hit by the weapon. [Roll damage once for all targets, if that's not implied enough.]

Ammunition & Additional Equipment


Bullets (10)
3 gp


Shells (5)
3 gp


Shot (5)
10 gp

Gunpowder, dose
2 sp


Gunpowder, keg
250 gp


Gunpowder, powder horn
35 gp


Gunsmith's tools
50 gp



Bullets. Bullets are used as ammunition for handguns, long guns, volley guns, and blunderbusses.
Shells. Shells are used as ammunition for coach guns, shotguns, and double-barreled shotguns.
Gunpowder. Guns that fire bullets also require 1 dose of gunpowder to fire.
Keg. A gunpowder keg holds 1000 doses of gunpowder. Loading gunpowder into a gun or powder horn from a keg requires an action.
Powder Horn. A powder horn holds 100 doses of gunpowder.
Gunsmith's Tools. A character proficient with gunsmith's tools can use them to craft and assemble gun parts, gun ammunition, and gunpowder.



For the sake of forthrightness: the double-barreled shotgun's stats match those of the shotgun on DMG p. 268. I just wanted a version that only had one shot.

I'm having trouble making decisions on pricing, which I think will be a factor in balance. I'm also looking for feedback on the guns in general.

For those interested, here's the progression the guns go through as they advance:
Pistol -> Heavy pistol -> Dueling pistol
-> Pepperbox -> Revolver
-> Dragon
Musket -> Rifle -> Repeating rifle
->-> Elephant gun
->-> Sniper Rifle
Volley gun -> Shotgun -> Double-barreled shotgun
-> Blunderbuss -> Coach gun



UPDATE 1: Through post #3. Added a holdout pistol and changed pepperbox range and damage, as per Typhon's advice. Also added ammunition and additional equipment.
UPDATE 2: Through post #10. Fixed some typos, added Dexterity save requirement to Scattershot property.

[Typhon]

Just a note, that a pepperbox pistol is usually pretty small and rarely accurate past 20 feet. I think you might want to decrease the damage and shorten the range. A pepperbox or holdout is usually closer to a .22 or .38 round and not a .45 or a .50. If it is going to be a 6 shot, the damage and range will have to come down. They do tend to be concealable, though.

There are holdout pistols in .45, .50 cal range but they are at most 2 shot.

[quinron]

Thanks, I appreciate the feedback and the information. I've been thinking about adding a holdout pistol option anyway, so the pepperbox functioning as a repeating holdout would be a good progression from that.

[Wufflykins]

Jinjitsu

I feel like you've short changed the longarms a bit on range, though the damage is probably fine.
A smoothebore musket like a Brown Bess will have a grouping smaller than than 8 inches at 80 yards as long as it's decently made and loaded properly and can plausibly (though with extreme difficulty) hit targets out to 200+ yards.

[Wufflykins]

I should also add that if you're making rules for firearms that you include rules for Bayonets and for striking with the stock.

I've actually just finished laying out a HUGE gunslinger class project that's taken me six months of development that covers a lot of these things.

While you can take or leave the class as whole there might be some inspiration here for you:

http://docdro.id/xPjSKNU

It's also currently on the first page of the homebrew forum as I just posted the latest update if you want to review it.

[Lonely Tylenol]

I just want to be sure here: the volley gun, shotgun, and double-barreled shotgun don't the scattershot property on purpose, yes? Despite being described as scatterguns? This is especially confusing for the volley gun, which has a special descriptor which states that firing it requires five bullets, which is very much in line with the definition of a scatter shot. I understand that the shotguns emulate the shotgun from the DMG, but the absence of a scattershot property on the volley gun is confusing.

Further, for the scattershot property, have you considered making it a Dexterity saving throw, rather than an attack roll? There is now a precedent, thanks to the Unearthed Arcana Artificer, of having such a cone-based attack require a saving throw (although the Thunder Cannon is more of a quasi-magical weapon, hence the force damage). It would be a good option for diversifying the attack options of firearms a bit by changing the defense it targets, although scattershot in general does diversify it a bit anyway.

Perchance, would you return critique my Expanded Inspiration Uses (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?517317-WIP-PEACH-Expanded-Inspiration-Uses&p=21773062)? :smallsmile:

[Wufflykins]

On the topic of Scattershot weapons - I've been working on a different take with scatter. Everyone does the cone but it's always pretty wonky and REALLY slows down play with having to roll a bunch of saves. I've been toying with the idea of the Ranger's Hordebreaker as a Scatter Weapon mechanic - which I think is a really elegant solution mechanically and more realistic. And when you think about it Hordebreaker is almost synonymous with Street Sweeper - exactly what a shotgun is.

Scatter. When you make a ranged firearm attack with a scatter property weapon, you can make another ranged firearm attack with the same weapon against a different creature that is within 5 feet of the original target and within range of your scatter weapon, you only misfire on the first attack roll, however if you do you may not make the second attack.

Not sure if you're doing misfire with your firearms but you can edit that out.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Everyone does the cone

We did it (http://www.middlefingerofvecna.com/2016/12/firearm-rules.html) as extra damage at short range. Nothin' simpler than that!

[Wufflykins]

We did it (http://www.middlefingerofvecna.com/2016/12/firearm-rules.html) as extra damage at short range. Nothin' simpler than that!

'Everyone does the cone' - now you're just taking my words out of context! :smallbiggrin:
Point blank damage bonus is good, it's certainly the most realistic (folks don't seem to realize that buckshot only scatters about a foot and a half at 50 yards).

That said - I'm happy eschew a little realism for the sake of an interesting mechanic.

[quinron]

Lonely Tylenol - The volley gun fires 5 barrels, each containing a bullet, at the same target at the same time. The scattershot weapons are more designed to reflect wide-spraying shots, as opposed to single-target multiple-projectile weapons like shotguns. On the subject of the attack roll vs. save, that was actually my intention with the property - I forgot to include it, so thank you very much for pointing that out. I'll edit the post shortly.

Wufflykins - I put these together for a gunfighter class of my own that I've been working on. I've always kind of hated the Pathfinder grit 'n' deeds model, and I've never really understood everyone's compulsion to base every homebrewed gunfighting class on it. Not to disparage your class, of course - if you want a 5e equivalent of the PF Gunslinger, all power to you. It's just not my thing.

I agree the long guns are a bit short-changed, but that's to preserve game balance to a degree. I wanted to keep them between the DMG's version of the musket and hunting rifle, though I felt that decreasing the sniper rifle's power allowed for some extra range. I want to keep a competitive niche for bows and crossbows so I don't have to use the usual D&D/PF tactic of making gun prices so exorbitant that only gunslingers would be willing to make/buy them.

I don't love the idea of Scatter as a weapon-specific Hordebreaker. I can see the logic behind it, but I don't like giving the ability of not just a class, but an archetype, for free with the purchase of a powerful weapon. If you were playing a ranger in a game where that mechanic was in play, it would be silly to take Hordebreaker instead of just carrying a shotgun. I also feel like the extra attacks would slow things down just as much as rolling saves for a cone.

[Wufflykins]

Lonely Tylenol - The volley gun fires 5 barrels, each containing a bullet, at the same target at the same time. The scattershot weapons are more designed to reflect wide-spraying shots, as opposed to single-target multiple-projectile weapons like shotguns. On the subject of the attack roll vs. save, that was actually my intention with the property - I forgot to include it, so thank you very much for pointing that out. I'll edit the post shortly.

Wufflykins - I put these together for a gunfighter class of my own that I've been working on. I've always kind of hated the Pathfinder grit 'n' deeds model, and I've never really understood everyone's compulsion to base every homebrewed gunfighting class on it. Not to disparage your class, of course - if you want a 5e equivalent of the PF Gunslinger, all power to you. It's just not my thing.

I agree the long guns are a bit short-changed, but that's to preserve game balance to a degree. I wanted to keep them between the DMG's version of the musket and hunting rifle, though I felt that decreasing the sniper rifle's power allowed for some extra range. I want to keep a competitive niche for bows and crossbows so I don't have to use the usual D&D/PF tactic of making gun prices so exorbitant that only gunslingers would be willing to make/buy them.

I don't love the idea of Scatter as a weapon-specific Hordebreaker. I can see the logic behind it, but I don't like giving the ability of not just a class, but an archetype, for free with the purchase of a powerful weapon. If you were playing a ranger in a game where that mechanic was in play, it would be silly to take Hordebreaker instead of just carrying a shotgun. I also feel like the extra attacks would slow things down just as much as rolling saves for a cone.

Yeah I'm still putting the screws to Hordebreaker as a kind of shotgun mechanic - lowering the damage when using the scatter property and keeping the range limited. That way the Hunter has either better damage from using a 2h weapon or much better range from using a bow (I think I ended up using 20ft as normal range for scatter and 60ft at disadvantage). And the shotgun needs to be reloaded so there's an action economy cost.

As for yours I might suggest a line instead of a cone if you're going down the saves route - Buckshot only spreads about a foot and a half at 50 yards (you can expand this with a choke but it's still going to be a lot less than 5 ft).

I moved away from the Deeds Model, but I definitely kept the grit. I like short rest resources on my martial classes though YMMV. Have you released the class these firearms pair with at all?

I've always felt that silence was a strong competitive niche for those two - and lack of a misfire chance if you down that path.

As far as your pricing goes:
Every DM wants to handle pricing a little different - while they may love the rest of your homebrew they are likely going to take that one little bit and throw it out the window. And fair is fair, accessibility to black powder is very realm (and even nation specific). It might be worth doing a little sidebar that covers that.

Keen to see where this goes though - I'm a sucker for a good Gunslinger!

[quinron]

As for yours I might suggest a line instead of a cone if you're going down the saves route - Buckshot only spreads about a foot and a half at 50 yards (you can expand this with a choke but it's still going to be a lot less than 5 ft).

You know, after reading your previous post, I was actually considering a line, but I'm jut not sold on that. If you shoot at two lined-up targets with a shotgun, the second target isn't going to be equally as affected as the first, if at all. I don't like the cone, for exactly the reason you don't; I think I just included it because, as you said, everyone does it. I'm still waffling.


I moved away from the Deeds Model, but I definitely kept the grit. I like short rest resources on my martial classes though YMMV. Have you released the class these firearms pair with at all?

I agree with short rest recovery as a rule. What I don't like is critical hits and kill shots returning grit. Blame it on an Angry GM article I found very persuasive, but I don't like that getting back grit points has nothing to do with spending grit points.


I've always felt that silence was a strong competitive niche for those two - and lack of a misfire chance if you down that path.

I don't like misfires. I think they're an unnecessarily frustrating mechanic - bad rolls don't debilitate other classes the way they debilitate someone fighting with a gun. Ultimately, I think they break Grod's Law:

Grod's Law: You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use.


As far as your pricing goes:
Every DM wants to handle pricing a little different - while they may love the rest of your homebrew they are likely going to take that one little bit and throw it out the window. And fair is fair, accessibility to black powder is very realm (and even nation specific). It might be worth doing a little sidebar that covers that.

Keen to see where this goes though - I'm a sucker for a good Gunslinger!

Pathfinder mishandled guns, in my opinion. I believe they made them so prohibitively expensive and complicated (in terms of misfires, powder acquisition, etc.) simply so they could keep them out of the hands of non-Gunslingers and keep the Gunslinger class special. I'd prefer to make buying a gun less of a big decision and hit the wallets when it comes to ammunition - that way, if you haven't taken levels in a gun-wielding class, you don't end up with such severe buyer's remorse if you decide the gun's not for you.

[Wufflykins]

You know, after reading your previous post, I was actually considering a line, but I'm jut not sold on that. If you shoot at two lined-up targets with a shotgun, the second target isn't going to be equally as affected as the first, if at all. I don't like the cone, for exactly the reason you don't; I think I just included it because, as you said, everyone does it. I'm still waffling.

Yeah, neither cones nor lines really capture what a Shotgun really is. Even my 'Hordebreaker' solution is fantasy to a degree. Buckshot is still really a single target weapon, it's just easier to aim in close range.
It's hard to flavour that in the terms of D&D; it's easier to hit with but has much less penetrating power than a musket ball, which is no net gain in terms of the AC vs. To-Hit mechanic.


I agree with short rest recovery as a rule. What I don't like is critical hits and kill shots returning grit. Blame it on an Angry GM article I found very persuasive, but I don't like that getting back grit points has nothing to do with spending grit points.

I'd be interested to read the article, but I'm not sure if I found it. I know AngryGM has a huge problem with Gunslingers to begin with so I'd take his opinions on them with a fistful of salt, I haven't read a huge amount of his work but it strikes me that he has a problem with firearms outside of D&D as well. All of this I think skews his opinion somewhat (if we don't like something we rarely want to see it succeed in any form). That is however a relatively uninformed first impression - otherwise I love most of his articles.


I don't like misfires. I think they're an unnecessarily frustrating mechanic - bad rolls don't debilitate other classes the way they debilitate someone fighting with a gun. Ultimately, I think they break Grod's Law:

I've never seen Grod's Law - it's a nice soundbite and in the case of Pathfinder I think it applies (for what it's worth I think you're right about the Pathfinder Gunslinger). However it specifically refers to bad mechanics; but what about good ones? I personally love misfires (but hate critical fumbles oddly enough), I find that misfires can be a cinematic and interesting part of fiction and D&D. Without misfires I find that firearms may as well be a reskinned crossbow. But that's me, I don't mind rolling low. It's RP fodder for me. And if the misfires offset powerful or interesting abilities (I happen to think I've made some interesting abilities with my gunslinger class), all the better.


Pathfinder mishandled guns, in my opinion. I believe they made them so prohibitively expensive and complicated (in terms of misfires, powder acquisition, etc.) simply so they could keep them out of the hands of non-Gunslingers and keep the Gunslinger class special. I'd prefer to make buying a gun less of a big decision and hit the wallets when it comes to ammunition - that way, if you haven't taken levels in a gun-wielding class, you don't end up with such severe buyer's remorse if you decide the gun's not for you.

As I said previous, firearm cost is going to come down to your DM. If we're talking Musketeer era - firearms were prohibitively expensive (especially Rifled Wheellocks and Revolving Cylinder firearms), and if that's the sort of era your DM wants to model he's well within his rights to throw your pricing out the window (for what it's worth that applies to my pricing as well). If you intend to make this published homebrew, it's my belief and recommendation that you make it as 'realm agnostic' as possible.

[quinron]

I'd be interested to read the article, but I'm not sure if I found it. I know AngryGM has a huge problem with Gunslingers to begin with so I'd take his opinions on them with a fistful of salt, I haven't read a huge amount of his work but it strikes me that he has a problem with firearms outside of D&D as well. All of this I think skews his opinion somewhat (if we don't like something we rarely want to see it succeed in any form). That is however a relatively uninformed first impression - otherwise I love most of his articles.

Here's the article. (http://theangrygm.com/whats-a-meta-phor/) He's actually discussing the swashbuckler when pointing out the problem, but the the element of it that he's criticizing is the points system that the swashbuckler took from the gunslinger. My complaints about the gunslinger are the same as his about the swashbuckler.


I've never seen Grod's Law - it's a nice soundbite and in the case of Pathfinder I think it applies (for what it's worth I think you're right about the Pathfinder Gunslinger). However it specifically refers to bad mechanics; but what about good ones? I personally love misfires (but hate critical fumbles oddly enough), I find that misfires can be a cinematic and interesting part of fiction and D&D. Without misfires I find that firearms may as well be a reskinned crossbow. But that's me, I don't mind rolling low. It's RP fodder for me. And if the misfires offset powerful or interesting abilities (I happen to think I've made some interesting abilities with my gunslinger class), all the better.

In this case, the "bad mechanic" being balanced is the fact that guns are far stronger compared to other weapons, and because of this, standard action economy makes them overpowered. To counter this, the misfire mechanic occasionally - and completely randomly - disrupts the shooter's action economy. Grod's Law is the reason the Path of the Berserker is so widely reviled - instead of granting a powerful ability that's still balanced against other classes, it grants a too-powerful ability that it balances by making it prohibitive to use.


As I said previous, firearm cost is going to come down to your DM. If we're talking Musketeer era - firearms were prohibitively expensive (especially Rifled Wheellocks and Revolving Cylinder firearms), and if that's the sort of era your DM wants to model he's well within his rights to throw your pricing out the window (for what it's worth that applies to my pricing as well). If you intend to make this published homebrew, it's my belief and recommendation that you make it as 'realm agnostic' as possible.

I'm generally the DM of any group I'm in, for good reason - I like being one. I don't like that there's no pricing given for a lot of the guns in the DMG, because it makes it hard to determine how the game compares them to the priced ones. On the other hand, as I said, I don't think pricing makes an effective balancing mechanic, and I don't think it's a good idea to try to make it be one, but I do think it should figure in to a degree, if only to provide a kind of "effectiveness curve." You won't find a first-level character with plate armor, for example, unless the DM is being absurdly liberal with starting gold; I think the weaker guns could make acceptable starting equipment, but you shouldn't be able to start with a shotgun.

[Wufflykins]

He makes some fair points, there is definitely a disconnect between to the two events (probably more so in pathfinder than in mine since Panache and Grit can't really be spent to up your damage output).

In pathfinder this was certainly true - more damage and firing vs. touch AC was bonkers. Offset by a confusing misfire system and a cumbersome reload system (the nicest thing you could say about it is that it was inelegant). I think path of the berserker is a case of overcompensation more than bad mechanics, the drawback is definitely way too severe in it's case and I'm aware that nothing I create is immune to the same problem. We as home brewers do have the leisure of tweaking to our hearts content however.

Absolutely include a pricing, it'd be weird if you didn't especially if this is for personal use. Pricing does very little as a balancing mechanic I agree - if guns are exorbitant then you're only going to have two scenarios as adventurers: Too broke to buy one and '2000gp? That's chump change.'
Not to mention if you want to put guns in your world on enemies, players are going to pick them up and circumvent the pricing system entirely.

There's a small disconnect for me regarding 'not having a shotgun at 1st level' - as a shotgun was often the cheapest and most versatile weapon one could have living on a frontier or a farm. Slug ammunition and bird shot for game hunting and buck-shot for people hunting, it was often the only firearm that many people owned. Of course this is fantasy and can and are free to throw that out the window, but I'd rather the shotgun be balanced on it's own merits than on it's availability (the same point you're trying to make I guess).

I'm still tweaking my hordebreaker mechanics - it needs problem one more push down but I think it has more promise than the cone or line solutions. I definitely don't want to ranger to feel ripped off too.

Scatter. When you make a ranged firearm attack with a scatter property weapon (that is within it’s scatter property range), you can make another ranged firearm attack with the same weapon against a different creature that is within 5 feet of the original target and within range and line of sight of your scatter weapon (cover rules may apply, see page 196 of the PHB). Both attacks use the Scatter property’s damage die. You only misfire on the first attack roll, however if you do you may not make the second attack. Class features, spells bonuses and sneak attack only apply to the first target, however if the attack is a Deadshot the benefits apply to both attacks.

Typically 20/60 range on scatter property with one die size smaller (A 1d10 shotgun becomes 1d8). I'm thinking of perhaps removing the die penalty and replacing it with not adding your modifier to the second attack (Representing that you just 'clip' them with some of the spread).

[Wufflykins]

But bringing it back to your firearms, I think the damage is well balanced against the range reduction. Though I've always been more comfortable when the firearms were sorted by 'era', making it easier for a DM to point to one part of the list and say 'you can get these'.
Your equipment and firearms need a 'weight' listed, I think that's occasionally useful.
Volley-Gun is missing the 'Special' tag.
Is the powder horn empty or full when you purchase it for 35gp? (I'm guessing full, but it's better to be explicit).
I've never liked the name 'Sniper Rifle' - Sniper (the word) was used only in limited context prior to our current century. Only first being really used in 1824. A more apt name might be a 'Long Rifle' (Like a Kentucky Long Rifle or a Sharps Rifle). Same purpose, less 'modern' name.
None of the shotguns have a 'scatter' property in their list (though it may be implied by them having their own list).
Do you add your dexterity modifier to the scatter damage? This isn't really explicitly stated and because the mechanic is different it probably needs to be restated.

Look forward to seeing more from you anyway! Hope I helped!