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Logic
2007-08-24, 12:39 AM
Midnight Son, as I am sure you have more experience than I do in the affairs of the heart, I still do not recommend hoping and waiting for her to come online. Perhaps you need to find something to do with your time that will keep your mind occupied so you are no longer thinking about her?

Syka
2007-08-24, 08:48 AM
Hoping to get online is ok, but it's good to know you aren't just sitting at the computer all day.

And trust me...People will ask. That's why when my ex and I first broke up, I tried getting all my friends up to date. I had preferred to tell them on my own terms rather than have people ask me every now and then about him.

But, it'll be ok. :) You seem to be handling it as well as possible, and you've got my ear (eyes?) if you need someone to talk to.


And thanks guys. I've just decided to take a 'Whatever' attitude. That way, if he does shape up, I won't have lost a friend. And if he doesn't, I haven't wasted any extra time on him beyond him being a distraction when bored. Oddly enough, I was looking through his friends list to try and find a mutual friend (who disappeared from my list), and I'm still in the 3 spot. I was sure I'd be down and another girl would be up there. Evidently not. *shrug* You guys confuse me, but I'm sure we confuse you as well.

Oh, and I couldn't find the friend. I think he's been deleted like I was. oo'

Cheers,
Syka

zeratul
2007-08-24, 09:46 AM
I chop and split wood to release anger.



For me at least punching bags, or violent video games is where it's at for stress releif.

Skippy
2007-08-24, 09:54 AM
Hi everyone... Y'know, relationships are really a messy things... Here's the thing:

I like a girl, I have liked her for about a year. We spent a lot of time together last autumn and I though she liked me. Then she started dating my best friend. We had a row, I stopped speaking to both of them. I apologized, we started talking again. Time passed, and recently they broke up. That made a real mess in my head again. Then she wanted to date with another of my friends. Then my best friend and my other friend had a row. Now they both dumped her, and she's feeling down. My head is a mess and it's rushing all the time. I really would like her to like me... What on earth can I do?

Syka
2007-08-24, 10:01 AM
Not date her.

I'm serious. That is just a trainwreck waiting to happen. I mean, she's already dated two of your friends, causing fights (including fights with you). Dating friends of ex's is difficult as is, but it's worse when there is a history of disagreements there. Especially given that you would kind of be getting the short end of the stick. If she knew you liked her, then she in full conciousness of that fact choose to date your friend, you would kind of be just a back up.

When I started dating Jerkface, I had no idea that our mutual friend liked me, too. At least not until about two months after we started dating. I felt bad, but because I dated Jerkface, I would not date either of our mutual friends.

My sister is dating a guy right now who has dated several of her other friends. Even though her friends are cool with it, I know plenty of girls who wouldn't be. Plus, if you find out she "did" something with one of them, how would you feel hanging around them? (Note: Also why I don't ask names or numbers, only if they've had sex.)

Basically, pretty nasty situations are likely to arise that aren't worth the most likely payout (dating someone for a couple months).

That's the way I see it, anyway.

Cheers,
Syka

Skippy
2007-08-24, 10:11 AM
Yes, I know everything of this... My brain knows every risk, every chance, every consecuence that this could bring... My brain has convinced itself that, not only I shouldn't date her, but also that I can't do it. Yet however, my heart just keeps bouncing everywhere and I can't seem to find a way to keep it quiet.Even moving to another city didn't work... -__-

It's just... weird... I thought I was cured, I was cool and had assumed that she prefered my friend than me... Then they broke up and she told me "I don't know what I want anymore"... Well, I don't know what do I want, either. I know it's not a good thing to date her, and still she is the girl I have loved more in my entire life...

I'm just a stubborn idiot, I know...

Syka
2007-08-24, 11:13 AM
Eh, trust me. I've been there (recently, too). Stuff like this doesn't go away. You just need to get yourself around people who have your best interest at heart and won't let you date someone like that. Especially if you know it'll be bad for you.

I've found parents and siblings to be great at that. They know all the little guilt tricks. ;) And it helps if the people are physically near you, I've noticed. Phone is one thing, having someone give you one of those "you're-being-an-idiot" looks is different.

Cheers,
Syka

Midnight Son
2007-08-24, 12:00 PM
Hmmm, I may have misrepresented what I meant by the hoping for her to come online part. I do not just sit in front of my computer and hope she shows up. When I'm on my computer, I am doing things computer related. At the same time, I have Yahoo Messenger up, so that I can talk to family and friends if they come online. So, by "hoping she comes online", that's what I mean.

And Logic, I have plenty experience with a broken heart. Doesn't ever make it any easier. Some of them have an added element of betrayal, however, and that makes it much harder because you are in love with a person who has cut you to the core. My first girfriend cheated on me, lied to me and pretty much abused my love for her in any way possible. It took me a year before I was able to feel anything above disdain for any woman not related to me. Even after that, the experience scarred me so much, that for years, if a girlfriend showed any signs of said activity, I'd dump her and run, whether it was true or not. Now, I still have very strong feelings for Ashildr, and find myself wishing she'd talk to me, despite the betrayal of my trust. I know that is not likely to happen after all that has transpired, so I move on and hope that I can find someone who will repay my love in kind.

ocato
2007-08-24, 01:23 PM
Ignore the beer commercials, this is an instance where real life man-law comes into play. Burt Reynolds shames himself and his moustache by incorrectly proclaiming that which all men (that I know at least) have instinctively known since jr. high school.

Man Law Article 3

A. If your friend dates a girl, and they break up, you are to wait a short 'grief' period of 1-2 weeks depending on the emo-ness of your friend. Then you are to seek his acceptance of your proposal. If he is okay with you asking his ex girlfriend out, you may proceed.

B. If you know your friend fancies a girl, and also fancy a date with her, you must either gain his permission to proceed or cite the misogynistic but accurate 'bros before hos' and both step back.

C. If you are at a social gathering, and see your friend preparing to leave with a girl whom you know he is only interested in based on his inebriation, you are fully and completely allowed to distract him, persuade him, or embarass him-- or any other action that saves him from waking up next to a bugbear the next day.

mudbunny
2007-08-24, 01:50 PM
It's just... weird... I thought I was cured, I was cool and had assumed that she prefered my friend than me... Then they broke up and she told me "I don't know what I want anymore"... Well, I don't know what do I want, either. I know it's not a good thing to date her, and still she is the girl I have loved more in my entire life...

As someone who dated someone who "didn't know what they wanted".

Don't. Chances are good that you are not what she wants. You are something safe and comforting that she can come back to in-between explorations.

The fact that she doesn't know what she wants, combined with her previous actions, should put a great big NO on her forehead.

Dallas-Dakota
2007-08-24, 03:01 PM
Sigh....I still like her though communication is almost nihil. You say contact her? Nope, she lives to far away to cycle, is not online much on MSN and I dont have her phone number....so nothing changed much....


This is far to OOC for a Belkar ITP nominee.....*stabs all people who have broken harts of fellow playground members*

FdL
2007-08-24, 06:22 PM
Yeah, the waiting-online thing dependancy can be a tough thing to shake. I became a little dependant of the cell phone for a while, wouldn't move out of a room without it, wouldn't turn it off at night. Thankfully I'm over that ^^

Glad to hear you're feeling better, Midnight.

And Syka too. You know, reading your post I noticed this "list" thing. Is that like a "friend" ranking they have in MySpace? Sorry I'm not aiming this at you, but, how silly is that idea? I mean, it sounds a little childish, and yes, it does create these kind of situations where people take it seriously. I mean, how can you rank your relations with people? :S :S :S

@Skippy: Well, the thing here is that she actually chose two people over you from your group. Sorry if it sounds blunt, but that's an indication that she's not into you if there ever was one. Happened to me too, heh :) (most of these awful relationship situations already happened to me) So I'd say try to get over her, just for that alone.

Then again...Some won't agree with me because it's probably not "The Right Thing To Do". But I think one is entitled to relax a bit in life and let yourself take some risks if you feel like it. Yeah, ieverything you do has consequences, but personally I'm tired of having too many reasons not to do things, not to try going out with girls I meet. I don't want to be limited like that. I'd rather make a mistake than not do anything at all :S So I'd say, if I was in your situation AND she was into me, I'd give it a go, being careful and all. Maybe just as an experiment, I mean, you can't expect it to last or get serious really after what she's done, but still it can work to let you channel all your "liking her" instead of having to swallow it (horrible metaphor).

Yeah, that was lousy advice and you shouldn't take it, RadicalSkippy. But my point is that there really isn't a "Right Way Of Doing Things". You live and learn and make mistakes, and sometimes not making mistakes you don't learn anything and you don't grow up.

Maybe it's that I don't want to play like a good kid anymore. It doesn't get me much really :(

Current mood is = :smallannoyed:
(for DragonRider :p)

PS: Midnight, I highly suggest you block her or delete her from your IM contacts. That way it won't happen, so you'll be able to relax. That's intended as a honest "good" piece of advice.

@Ocato: "bros before hos"? LOL :smallconfused: Men can be really backstabbing too when it comes to getting the girl. Yeah, they talk about being buddys, the strong bonds of male friendship and all that crap, but when they can get the girl, it's every man for himself.

Dude, I'm so bitter :( But yeah, it's only because ALL of this has happened to me. I've been "betrayed" by guys I considered my friends, so I learned not to trust male friends in that respect :smallannoyed:

Well, that's the end of my post. I fear I've become too negative and so will refrain from writing more :( :( :(
I hope tomorrow brings a better day.

ocato
2007-08-24, 06:35 PM
@Ocato: "bros before hos"? LOL :smallconfused: Men can be really backstabbing too when it comes to getting the girl. Yeah, they talk about being buddys, the strong bonds of male friendship and all that crap, but when they can get the girl, it's every man for himself.

Dude, I'm so bitter :( But yeah, it's only because ALL of this has happened to me. I've been "betrayed" by guys I considered my friends, so I learned not to trust male friends in that respect :smallannoyed:

Get better friends.

FdL
2007-08-24, 07:00 PM
Working on it, trust me.

Dryad
2007-08-24, 08:33 PM
Aw! *Hugs all with broken hearts*
But.. Well, if one of you don't want to go on, then that's where it stops. *Cringes* So that might not have been the kindest thing to say, but it always put my heart at rest after a break-up.

As for 'I don't know what I want anymore:' I've been there, myself. (On both sides)
Best thing is to comfort her, give her a hug, tell her it's okay, and that it's okay to not know what you want. Just.. Don't go beyond the hug, and.. Ehm.. Don't flirt. It's tough, I know, but... Well, it makes it harder. If she wants to be close to you, but doesn't know what she wants, then she wants to be close to you for comfort and shelter, not for romance. *hugs* Sorry!

Altharis
2007-08-24, 10:08 PM
Hey broken hearted people! I may be new to the thread but I ain't new to relationship counselling....I'm here to help. (And talk about my own woes, of course.)

Yeah, I agree with Dryad. Sometimes you have to be able to suspend your emotions to comfort a friend. (Easier said than done, but necessary) Friendship is a very valuable commodity. Less valuable than Love, sure, but has more stable market expectations. Buy into Friendship, and maybe sell some love. (You will all soon learn my love of metaphors.)

Cheers,
Altharis

zeratul
2007-08-24, 11:07 PM
Gah people, this isn't so much a problem (all though it could be) as a point of intrigue. There is something odd about my family where we seem to start having strong feelings for people at younger ages.

I am saying this because, at this point, I'm liking her more every time I see her, and it has gotten to a point where saying I "like" her really isn't a strong enough term. Love may be a strong term to use, but it's odd because it's a stronger feeling than most my age seem to be capable of. This seems to mainly have downsides, but whatever, The person I have feelings for is actually a year and a half older than me.

Shadic
2007-08-25, 12:20 AM
I am saying this because, at this point, I'm liking her more every time I see her, and it has gotten to a point where saying I "like" her really isn't a strong enough term. Love may be a strong term to use, but it's odd because it's a stronger feeling than most my age seem to be capable of.

That's what everybody thinks, to be honest. Whether or not age matters really depends on circumstance, mainly the people involved. A year and a half isn't that big of a difference, but it's still there.. Think about it - You 14 right? 1.5 years is over 10% of your life.. O.o;

But yeah.. As hard as it is, don't go head-over-heels until you really feel like you can have a chance with that person... Actually, it's pretty much impossible.. :smallannoyed:

Thrawn183
2007-08-25, 01:37 AM
Man, I take one small, 4-day fishing excursion in the wilds of Alaska and I miss everything :smalleek: .

Alcohol: the only thing that got me through my senior year of high school, haven't gotten drunk since Halloween (don't get worried about me being an alchie), can be a beautiful thing in the right circumstances, can tear you apart in others. I've found in dealing with my friends that it isn't drinking that is usually the problem, but whatever is causing the person to resort to drinking. Beat that, and the person doesn't usually have much of a desire to drink.

Staying Friends: wish it worked better, has only very rarely worked out for me.

Crazy People: stay away... far away. There are plenty of acceptable people out there, don't be too concerned about ruling out one or two.

Age: I don't think it is such a big deal in terms of maturity (I'm 20 btw), the problem at this point is people at different stages of their lives. If I go out with someone two years older than me, they've probably just graduated from college and are going to move somewhere else. Kind of makes it difficult for me to tell myself that something could work out in the long run, when I keep thinking about what I'd do in a year or so. Hope none of you have to face a decision like that any time soon, its no fun.

Dating amongst friends: It can work, but man can you set of fireworks that would make a certain day in July jealous. Just be careful. Thar' be hidden currents in the deapths ye plumb.

Sir_Norbert
2007-08-25, 08:53 AM
Age: I don't think it is such a big deal in terms of maturity (I'm 20 btw), the problem at this point is people at different stages of their lives. If I go out with someone two years older than me, they've probably just graduated from college and are going to move somewhere else. Kind of makes it difficult for me to tell myself that something could work out in the long run, when I keep thinking about what I'd do in a year or so. Hope none of you have to face a decision like that any time soon, its no fun.
With me it's the opposite; I'm 24 and she's 19, so I've already graduated and she is just about to start college. But we've got plans for how to make it work. Most likely, I'll look into moving nearer to her when she's at college -- if you're 5000 miles apart to start with then just moving to the same city feels like paradise :elan:

So yes, one and a half years really isn't a big age difference at all.

Don Beegles
2007-08-25, 09:54 AM
I tend to find that an age difference is never as much of a problem as a maturity difference. I'm a year and two grades ahead of my girlfriend (still the one from the other thread, yes) and we've never had problems. It's because both of us are ready for a fairly serious relationship (that is, serious for high-school). I have, on the other hand, had a friend who was in the same situation, and it didn't really work out at all, because she wasn't mature enough. I would say that you go for it, but be wary of those especially strong feelings until you are sure they are reciprocated.

Syka
2007-08-25, 11:09 AM
Yes, the list is that ranking thing.

I used to do it by the people I talk to most and am close to. I finally just used a code to get rid of it. Didn't feel like dealing with the possible drama.

Other stuff...I'm not coherent enough to comment on me thinks. Heh.

Cheers,
Syka

FdL
2007-08-25, 12:09 PM
Dating amongst friends: It can work, but man can you set of fireworks that would make a certain day in July jealous. Just be careful. Thar' be hidden currents in the deapths ye plumb.

No pun intended, I guess, but still LOL :p


Yes, the list is that ranking thing.

I used to do it by the people I talk to most and am close to. I finally just used a code to get rid of it. Didn't feel like dealing with the possible drama.


I don't see a possible situation in which this would be fun to use, I guess *shrug*. Even if you're like 10-12...No one wants to be told that you're someone's #3 friend :S Another great idea from Microsoft.

Syka
2007-08-25, 12:51 PM
Pretty sure Microsoft didn't do Myspace.

I've never really cared. Even when I was dating Jerkface, I knew that the two guys that were before me on the list had been friends with him for...years. Even if I was his girlfriend, I'd not dare compete with friends; and any one I date best not complain about my friend Mike being my top friend. He's pretty much my best friend, even beating out anyone I date (to alter that "bros before hos", the female version is something like "chicks before..." you get the idea. :smallwink: ). I was actually shocked to see how many people put me on their top friends. oO''

Anyway..on topic...>>

Cheers,
Syka

CurlyKitGirl
2007-08-25, 01:09 PM
Zer, as most people say, it's maturity that counts. If you love her and she returns your feelings that age difference doesn't matter. I personally know people age 16 who go out with 13 year olds successfully. It might be hard but if you both care that age gap means nothing.
After all there have been larger age gaps before...

FdL
2007-08-25, 01:36 PM
Pretty sure Microsoft didn't do Myspace.


Oh!! You're right. Now, I don't know where I got that from :s



I've never really cared. Even when I was dating Jerkface, I knew that the two guys that were before me on the list had been friends with him for...years. Even if I was his girlfriend, I'd not dare compete with friends; and any one I date best not complain about my friend Mike being my top friend. He's pretty much my best friend, even beating out anyone I date (to alter that "bros before hos", the female version is something like "chicks before..." you get the idea. :smallwink: ). I was actually shocked to see how many people put me on their top friends. oO''


That too, I mean, mixing friends with significant others is weird at best. "I love you but I prefer my buddy Joe". "We're best friends since we were born but I love her" :S
No need for that. It's as if you had a list of people you love: #1 dad? #1 mom? :D

Anyway.



Anyway..on topic...>>


Yup. Zeratul, I think this has reached the point where you need to do something about it. Just go with the feeling and look for any "comfortable" situation to talk to her about it. Don't be afraid, you should never apologize about how you feel. It's evident to you, it's clear and you know it. Now she has to know it, don't you think? If not, it's an elephant hanging out with both of you in the same room :p
Do it, you'll feel better about it than having it inside. You can do it!!! ^^

Edit: Age and maturity don't always go hand in hand, trust me. Everything would be easier to figure out if that was the case.

Altharis
2007-08-25, 06:29 PM
Argh! I, for one, have had my fill of age-ist comments. As an advanced stream student, I often get into friendship groups with MUCH older people. But being younger does not mean being immature! Rargh! :smallfurious:

Okay, rant over.

But you get the message: AGE MATTERS NOT, PADAWAN. Maturity does.

Just my 2cp,
Altharis

Dragonrider
2007-08-25, 06:59 PM
Zer, you know my advice. :smalltongue:

Seriously? I don't think age matters that much. Like everyone else says...maturity. "Leo" is 7 months younger than me which isn't much but put us in different grades and kind of made things awkward. I know a girl who won't date anyone who's even a week younger than her - which I thought was pretty odd and superficial. Age difference shrinks the older you get anyway.

rubakhin
2007-08-25, 07:45 PM
Well, this is all very personal. Christ! Okay, here goes:

For the past year I've been seeing this guy, Sasha. But his mother Marina hates my guts. Worse, she hates my guts for sound reasons that are entirely my fault - to sum it up, I'm somewhere between Rimbaud and Klaus Kinski on the enfant terrible scale. Marina has forbidden Sasha from seeing me or speaking to me again. The last time I saw him was in June, just after I got out of the mental hospital. After my second hospitalization, Marina decided that I couldn't live with Sasha anymore. She even whisked him away to Moscow for the summer to keep him apart from me. So, I'm back at my family's house. It is a good twenty miles away, and because of leg problems I can only walk maybe seven miles a day. Sasha has had some problems with drugs and such in the past, and some severe medical problems, so Marina has almost total control over his life. He can't use his car without her permission - she hides the keys - and she has his prescriptions and control over whether or not to give him the drugs he needs. One day away from her and he goes into withdrawal.

We wanted to go live together in Russia or Ukraine, or even France. He planned to get a work visa after he finished Yale. He graduated this summer, but . . . he's really in no state mentally or medically to work and I don't know when that's going to change. Me, I don't drive, I never finished middle school, and my work experience is nineteen years as poet translator, therefore, I am totally unhireable. (Although, for what it's worth, I am a friggin' good poet. Forgive me the bragging, it's my only mitigating factor.) Unlikely we'd be able to get an apartment somewhere together anytime soon.

Right now we have been communicating sporadically in secret, but it's only a matter of time before she figures out what we're doing.

How can I appeal to Marina? We are both Russian Orthodox and I've been thinking about going to her church - maybe if I see her there I can convince her that I have become a better person. If only she would read my short stories, my poems. Then she would understand me more. Though talking to her is probably impossible, because our scholar friend Vasily, who is the smartest man on Earth and can convince anyone of anything, who understands the importance of my work and Sasha's role in what I mean to accomplish, talked to her about me and she still doesn't want me near her son. Or, how can I find a way to see Sasha? Is it possible? Maybe I will hide myself in the city where he lives. I am good looking enough, I could become a hustler. Or play violin in crowded areas for money, and live under a bridge or at a shelter. (Or, well, I could just squat at a Yale dorm. If you're ever homeless in New Haven, remember that everyone in Yale is as dumb as bricks and you can sneak into the colleges and cafeterias easy.) He could pretend he was going for walks and come see me. As for starving, freezing, murder, I don't the hell care! Comfort really means nothing to me. I have spent nights outside before. I have done worse and more dangerous things on a caprice. All I want is to write - and Sasha. If I have only Sasha, and a notebook and a pen, I can be happy anywhere.

Or, should I just give up and move to Africa or something?

Brickwall
2007-08-25, 10:10 PM
I've never been good at reasoning with unreasonable people, so I can't help you there.

My advice for "Romeo and Juliet" situations is to go and tough it out on your own with your beau. So long as you're both old enough to. If you're both willing to look hard and work hard, you can make a life for yourself without parental support.

And if you're not willing to work hard for it, the relationship is a bad idea anyway. True love is worth fighting for and suffering for, because one in a frabjillion people has a chance at it. Or something like that. I'm rounding, okay? Point is, if you're in love, go the distance. If you're not willing to go the distance, BREAK IT OFF.

Then again, I don't understand the ethos of Russian culture, if it is very different from my own, so my perspective may be invalidated somehow.

rubakhin
2007-08-25, 11:47 PM
Well, the Russian culture is like the Western culture, except eight hundred times more dramatic and depressing. Anyone who believes that the overwrought prose of Dostoevsky is unrealistic has never met a Russian. At some point in time Sasha and I were hiding from Marina, who wanted me away from her son, when Vasily who had been summoned threw open the doors and cried, "If you ever truly cared for one another, you must leave this place immediately!"

And I was in the middle of countering with, "But how can I live, having left him like this?" when I realized, wow. even though we are all in America, this conversation would not be happening to anyone other than a collection of slavs. Strangest moment of culture shock I've ever experienced.

We are both of age to leave (I'm nineteen, he's twenty-three) but it is very, very difficult to get a job. I have been searching frantically for one, applied to dozens upon dozens of places since I got sent home in June, and I have failed every time. Even the factories won't take me, I have not got the papers. I search the newspapers every day, no matter what kind of work, how base, how demeaning, if there was one opening anywhere I tried for it, and nothing can be done. Truly I am limited to either the sex trade or a miracle. Sasha is in no condition to work. If by some miracle we had money, we still couldn't run away, because Marina has his prescriptions. Sasha is very sick. If he goes one or two days without his drugs he will begin to die. To work for it! Truly I would work my hands raw and bloody. I have looked for every chance: The impossibility of it, in this world! It infuriates me. What, do you think I would not work hard? Of course, if I had even the slightest chance, I would take it - if only Sasha were well, if only I were educated, could get work. . . but really, so impossible . . . I have done everything, absolutely. Maybe I just need to wait. The summers are difficult times to get jobs, because all of the high school and college students out of school are working for summer. There may be something, in a few weeks - I can't know. I will be patient. And then, money, but the pills he needs . . . and that I cannot contact him . . . really, we're at a stalemate. That Marina! She must be proud of herself, she has killed love. Even the love of a scoundrel like me, the love of an undeserving man, only, to kill that undeserved love by forced starvation, what a thing for a woman to do! It must be a sin. And to her own son!

Serpentine
2007-08-25, 11:56 PM
If he's 23, shouldn't he be getting his own prescriptions? It sounds like most of what needs to be done, needs to be done by him - to start with, going to the doctor on his own for his prescriptions, and standing up to his mother (not necessarily in that order).
And... it looks like you're right about Russian drama o.O You did say you're a poet, though, so you might not be all that representative...

Hmm. I don't know what that situation is like over there, but have you looked at fruit picking? It's very seasonable, obviously (and I don't know where the fruit seasons are at up there), and getting to the job might be troublesome, but I know that here they're always so short that the pay's geverally pretty good, and I think food and accommodation are usually included.

FdL
2007-08-26, 12:44 AM
Wow...Rubakhin, that's a complicated situation. It's awful to have love and find things external to it that complicate it. Terrible. I'm thinking and I guess it's extra complicated by health and work issues, but I think you both have to talk to her and try to solve it.

Obviously severing the control she has on her son would be a great start, then would be about a more fair power struggle. I'm thinking for the little I know about it that Sasha maybe it's not taking a very active stance in this. Am I wrong?
It's his mother after all, I don't know. It's a little more of his fight, but maybe a more difficult fight even.

And yeah, you seem to be really brave about it and prepared to take extreme measures, but then again they don't ensure you will succeed :S

So it's very complicated...Maybe if you give us more details we can keep thinking of a solution to advise you.

Vampiric
2007-08-26, 11:06 AM
Wow. Yeah, I think Russia is really cool, and have learnt Russian up to A2 level. It's a nice language. But I agree with the advice so far, rubakhin, it needs to start with Marina having less power over Sasha. And he should have control over his own medication. What kind of a mother is prepared to withdraw medical help from her son?! Jeez. But yeah, Sasha perhaps needs to take a more active role?

When you say Vasily is your scholar friend, is he a friend of Marina, too? What does he do for a living?

Хорошая жизни, Рубахин

(I'm not too good on the grammer, rubahkin. Any corrections welcome! :)

rubakhin
2007-08-26, 11:55 AM
Hmm. I don't know what that situation is like over there, but have you looked at fruit picking?

We're still in Connecticut, the New Haven area where Yale is. If there are any verdant orchards in CT, they're all upstate, Yale's on the shore. I probably couldn't find work like that. It's a good idea, though . . . there might be apples somewhere, I should look into it on the small chance that there is work.



Obviously severing the control she has on her son would be a great start, then would be about a more fair power struggle. I'm thinking for the little I know about it that Sasha maybe it's not taking a very active stance in this. Am I wrong?
It's his mother after all, I don't know. It's a little more of his fight, but maybe a more difficult fight even.


Sasha is not . . . well, he's not really active in life. He is very sick, it's all he can do to get up out of bed - even then he sleeps fourteen, sixteen hours, entire days. He sits on the computer all day, sometimes eats, that's all he's really capable of. It was a Herculean feat, getting him to finish college. He doesn't have the strength to be anything but spineless. And Marina is convinced that her control over him is for his own good, because of his problems with drugs and sickness in the past. She is afraid that if she gives him any freedom he'll go to all kinds of decadence: hard drugs, women, men, and end up in jail, addicted to worse drugs than he's already on, dead, Lord only knows. And, well, I can't say I wouldn't have led him into such a life, the way I was when she knew me. I've caused Sasha a lot of madness and pain. I can't say I've been a good influence over his life lately - really, our lives together mirrored Rimbaud and Verlaine's so strongly, with all sorts of brutal coincidences, that I called him Paul or Pavlushka affectionately at times - but I have changed since then. Not exactly my desire to get into trouble for the sake of poetics, but such that I've let go of a lot of pain, misery, and anger that I was taking out, unjustly, on him. Truly, this situation is my fault. I'm really not sure what his situation with his doctors is, why he can't ask them for copies of his prescriptions. What I need to do, I think, more than anything else is to convince Marina of my good character. But it is hard to find a way to talk to Sasha, it will be even harder to talk to Marina who will take great pains to avoid ever hearing my voice again.



When you say Vasily is your scholar friend, is he a friend of Marina, too? What does he do for a living?

Well . . . he is a scholar, that's the best way to put it. A lover of knowledge. He used to be a professor of Greek and Latin, now, I don't think he does anything. Maybe publishes papers, translates poetry. He has wealthy friends who take care of his needs. Sasha has told me in the past to ask him to find me a patron as well. I feel shameful asking for such a thing, being not quite as mercenary as Sashechka, but it might be something to look into. He is a friend of us all, but he has known Marina for a very long time. He usually acts as a go-between whenever Sasha and/or myself and Marina are butting heads, but I'm not sure if even he has turned against me. In his last letter Sasha sort of implied it: "Everyone I've spoken to about you advises me to leave you" . . . but Vasily understands my heart and my character. If I talk to him and assure him that I've changed - at least changed enough that now my intentions are to protect Sasha and not put him in any kind of danger or pain - he'll understand me. Perhaps what I need to do is write Vasily.

спасибо т.т

Syka
2007-08-26, 06:04 PM
Hey, cool. Another classicist. Good to know my degree could get me something. :smallwink:

Anyway. From what you have told us, honestly...I do not think a relationship for either of you is good right now. Sasha needs to get his life together, separate himself from his dependancy on his mom, etc. Speaking of, it sounds kind of like he suffers depression. Actually, it sounds a lot like what I've heard of clinical depression. You also need to get your life together. His mom probably thinks you have not changed because she has not seen it- you are still unemployed, have not finished any schooling, and the like. Try getting your GED, getting into a college, getting any sort of job. Even if it's flipping hamburgers. Be the best dang hamburger flipper out there. And no, I'm not kidding. But you also sound like you have a mind to exagerrate things, and you need to temper that some as it probably isn't helping Sasha's mom's opinion of you. Creativity is awesome, I'm a writer and I know this. But you need to have some realism in there. I try to keep one eye on the ground and one eye in the clouds. :)

Sasha's mom I can't really help you with...she seems a bit off the rocker herself, if she's willing to keep necessary medication from her son.

Cheers,
Syka



EDIT: More just a complaint. Why are people, upon finding out I'm single and back at school again, feel the need to ask how "the dating thing" is going. :smallannoyed: In the past 24 hours I've had two people ask me about it. Two people who know me fairly well, so my answer probably didn't come as a surprise. I told them that with my classes and the film club I'm in, I don't really have the time to worry.

It just seems like everyone is thinking I'm going to be 'on the hunt' now that I am without a man. *grumble* Sorry. It's just aggravates me when people automatically assume that you are going to be looking for a significant other. My classes, club, and friends are all much more reliable than relationships, at least at this point in my life.

Heh, I can assure you...Plato and Terence and Euripides will never leave me...Though admittedly, they don't do much for bed warming.

Plus, I don't want to be one of those people that HAS to be in a relationship. I hate feeling like I need someone else to define my life. Not too mention, I'm finding I have much more free time now to get involved on campus, which is awesome.

Logic
2007-08-26, 09:38 PM
It's just aggravates me when people automatically assume that you are going to be looking for a significant other.

All too often, this happens to me. I have been somewhat happy and without a relationship for the last 2 and a half years, yet a few people never seem to stop bugging me about it.

Some are genuinely concerned about you, because they can't fathom NOT being in a relationship for an extended period of time. Just tell them how happy you are to be "free of the oppressive grasp of MEN!" and I am sure they will walk away confused, and not ask the question again for some time.

ocato
2007-08-26, 10:01 PM
Sad as it sounds, some people just aren't that happy by themself. I'm like that sort of. I go in phases of okay and less okay. Mostly it boils down to not having anyone to talk to and missing cuddling.


OH EM GE 2morro skool starts an i r nervis. lolololololololol spaz attck


*ahems* sorry.

Hell Puppi
2007-08-26, 10:03 PM
It's better than dating someone in the military and hearing 'so when are you two getting married?' at least once a week. Or the ever-wonderful going on base and being asked which one is my husband. Blarg I say, blarg!

FdL
2007-08-26, 10:34 PM
Heh, I can assure you...Plato and Terence and Euripides will never leave me...Though admittedly, they don't do much for bed warming.


Oh, about Plato, you know, he might never leave you. But I doubt you'll ever get any action with him...I've heard he has a tendency for a certain type of relationship :smallbiggrin: (get it? Platonic! :p Second dumbest joke ever)

Jokes aside, yeah, you're right. When you have things to do in your life, and especially after what you went through, it's understandable that you don't want anything that has to do with dating. Even so, whether you want it or not, as we always say around here, these things happen on their own, and will happen at the right time. So what you're saying is ok, you can be happy not focusing on that single aspect of your life.

And yeah, when you're single it's awful to get asked by everybody about it, or be nagged by your relatives who ask you why don't you have a nice girlfriend. With my mom and my grandma I'm quite fed up. Heh, as if I didn't want it for myself :smallannoyed: It makes me mad.


It's better than dating someone in the military and hearing 'so when are you two getting married?' at least once a week. Or the ever-wonderful going on base and being asked which one is my husband. Blarg I say, blarg!

Hah. So I take it it's extra-annoying when dating someone in the military :p Is it because the formality of the institution? Or do they get married more often? In any case, the husband thing is hilarious :p The sort of comment that makes recent couples really uncomfortable.

Midnight Son
2007-08-27, 12:03 AM
Prior to Ashildr, I spent 5 years without a girlfriend. I'd go on a few dates with a lady, but either she didn't like me, or I didn't like her. This was a constant till about a two years ago when I realized that I'd rather be alone than continue dating like that. So I stopped. I have to say that I was much happier not having to worry about the whole thing. Then along comes a wonderful woman who completely takes my breath away. I miss that feeling, but not enough to make me go back to dating for dating's sake.

As for people hounding me about my love life, I tell them that I am happy with the person I am and don't need a woman to feel complete. If one comes along, great; If not, I'll be okay.

Syka
2007-08-27, 09:03 AM
Thanks guys. That's pretty much how I look at it. I recognize the pros and cons to both situations and, because of that, I'm generally just as happy single as I am being part of a couple. Granted, I do miss some of the stuff, but not enough to allow it to consume my thoughts as I had when I was a younger teen (ironically, about three months after saying to heck with worrying about it, I met my first boyfriend).

It's just an unneeded hassel right now. Any guy who wants to date me has to be willing to hear a lot of "Sorry, but I have to do homework." Which is actually one reason I've found long distance to be semi-beneficial: I can easily talk on AIM and do homework. I find it much harder to do that in the prescence of friends.

Logic...I might just do that next time I get asked. I'm sure my friends would appreciate it coming from me, as they are used to random stuff like that.

Hellpuppi, I can somewhat relate. Mine was more along the lines of people expressing skepticism about my relationship with my ex. Either saying we were too young (he 15, me 16), or it was too far (Fl-NJ), or one of us would cheat, or someone actually TELLING me to cheat since he wouldn't find out. After about a year and a half people stopped with that. The worst part was his mom and my grandmother both expressed dislike that we were serious so young...Yah, that doesn't help. Thankfully, my mom was very supportive.

Good luck with you guys, though. :) Military can be tough.

And the guy who told me to cheat, I told him, "Just because you have the morals of a goat, doesn't mean I do." ;) The guy was an idiot anyway (not just for that...he dated literally about 5 of my friends, then thought he could date me, then moved on to other people...and we had proof he was cheating on most of them...)

Cheers,
Syka

ocato
2007-08-27, 09:06 AM
I happen to have many very moral goat friends, thank you. :smallwink:

Don Beegles
2007-08-27, 12:01 PM
I agree about people finding relationships just because they seem to think they need them: It's usually a bad idea. It really grinds my gears when I hear someone say they need a girlfriend as though it is some of item. When people ask me for advice in that situation (which is not often seeing as how I'm a nerd, but it happens occassionally) I always tell them not to look for a girlfriend, but to look for a good friend, and then take it from their. Relationships just for the sake of it never seem to work as well as ones that are built on some sort of real feeling.

SMEE
2007-08-27, 01:00 PM
And it turns out that my relationship also didn't work out. :smallfrown:

Oh well... such is life. :smallfrown:

Sir_Norbert
2007-08-27, 03:33 PM
Oh no! *cries and offers you hugs and chocolate*

Vampiric
2007-08-27, 06:35 PM
*hugs*, SMEE. Need advice? Or just letting emotion flow forth?

SMEE
2007-08-27, 07:18 PM
I'm just letting emotion flow forth.
It won't be long before this wound heals. :smallsmile:

AngelSword
2007-08-27, 07:57 PM
I just happened upon this song that this band I was once in recorded, and it seems fitting for this thread.
Confused by the darkness in my life
I came to you with lustful eyes
We made our mistake that night
Forever to change for wrong or right

Two lost souls trying to fill the void
To heal the scars of time long past
Finding comfort in the others' voice
Learning that Love is sometimes not a choice

Closer than ever now
Closer than ever now
Our bodies and souls are one

Closer than ever now
Closer than ever now
Our bodies and souls are one

Closer than ever now
Closer than ever now
Our bodies and souls are one

Closer than ever now
Closer than ever now
Our bodies and souls are one

The fires of passion burn bright
Our course is set with no remorse
Openness and honesty are the only defense
Against any action or common sense

Closer than ever now
Closer than ever now
Our bodies and souls are one

Closer than ever now
Closer than ever now
Our bodies and souls are one

Closer than ever now
Closer than ever now
Our bodies and souls are one

Closer than ever now
Closer than ever now
Our bodies and souls are one

Waking from a blissful dream
Reality crashes down all around
Killing all that we were
And all that we are
But know that all wounds heal
And so will this scar

ocato
2007-08-27, 08:04 PM
I'm just letting emotion flow forth.
It won't be long before this wound heals. :smallsmile:

*claps his hands together and begins to rub them as fast as he can, generating friction*

Logic
2007-08-28, 04:27 PM
You think dating someone in the military is bad? Being in the military and dating someone who is not can be stressful. Besides being held accountable for just about everything they do on base, if they like certain activies which are prohibited to military personnel (which would encompass alot more than you think) then the military member can get in trouble just for association.

Syka
2007-08-28, 07:23 PM
...I've gotta ask "Like what?" I'm just wondering about some of the more random ones that we might not think would get you in trouble...*curious*

Cheers,
Syka

Brickwall
2007-08-28, 07:34 PM
Like pinball. I bet pinball is restricted in the military for some reason.

Serpentine
2007-08-28, 09:09 PM
And it turns out that my relationship also didn't work out. :smallfrown:

Oh well... such is life. :smallfrown:
Aww :smallfrown: A pity. I'd ask what happened, but it's okay, I'll poke it out of the other person involved later :smallwink: :smalltongue: (you know, unless you'd rather I didn't pry...)

Logic
2007-08-28, 09:22 PM
Like pinball. I bet pinball is restricted in the military for some reason.

Well, if it is, the tournament we have going on here is about to be shut down any minute now.(Actually, it is a Wii Sports and Madden '07 tournament)

Brickwall
2007-08-28, 09:31 PM
Well, if it is, the tournament we have going on here is about to be shut down any minute now.(Actually, it is a Wii Sports and Madden '07 tournament)

Neither of those are pinball, are they? :smallamused:

Logic
2007-08-28, 10:10 PM
http://www.pocketpcmall.com/images/220/1535/75x100_redalert.gif

Warning! This thread is veering dangerously close to Random Banter! Recommend deviation from this course immediately. [/Majel Barret]

Ok, I admit I contributed, but this joke had to be made, and I am in a Star Trek kind of mood.

Brickwall
2007-08-28, 10:20 PM
Fine, divert the technobabble to the shields, and see if you can't use some Applied Phlebtonium to fix up that warp drive! :smallbiggrin:

So, I guess that military partners just don't work out well for either party? I guess I'll have to try not to get into that trap, but, hey, who can resist a girl in uniform? :smallwink:

...what? The U.S. military uniforms look sexy on girls. Don't deny it, guys. :smallamused:

Logic
2007-08-28, 10:25 PM
So, I guess that military partners just don't work out well for either party? I guess I'll have to try not to get into that trap, but, hey, who can resist a girl in uniform? :smallwink:

...what? The U.S. military uniforms look sexy on girls. Don't deny it, guys. :smallamused:

Civilian/Military & Military/Military relationships can work out, but from all my experience, they take more work than a civilian-civilian relationship. And it is more than just the things I explained to Syka in PMs.

Women in uniform. :smallbiggrin: Especially the service-dress uniforms.

FdL
2007-08-28, 10:30 PM
Re-steering attempt post:

Pinballs are evil. And so are Wii. I remember hearing of broken relationships because of them. But it can happen because of many reasons anyway. Like this next post we have...

(cue next post)

Brickwall
2007-08-28, 10:31 PM
Huh? I thought Military-Military was verboten? Learn something new every day.

And if anyone doubts me, watch Down Periscope. Lieutenant Lake (no idea who plays her) is hot even when her uniform is the right size. Seriously, uniforms are awesome. Do they let you bring them home with you, Logic? :smalltongue:

FdL
2007-08-28, 10:37 PM
Especially the service-dress uniforms.

What's this like? Is what female military/military use? You know, I'm all for girls wearing uniforms and this probably looks cool, but I never thought military could be sexy.

Then again I've seen a couple episodes of JAG.

Zeb The Troll
2007-08-28, 10:49 PM
The service dress uniforms are the military formal uniform. And yeah, they make da wimmenz look good.

Military-military isn't forbidden at all. It's officer-enlisted or supervisor-subordinate (of course) that are regulated against.

As far as military dating troubles go, I'd say probably the worst is interservice dating. When I was in I had a soldier (Army) was married to an airmen (Air Force). There just aren't that many posts where they can be stationed together and the services don't care at all to try and make it happen for them. Intraservice is fine though. The services will do their utmost to get married couples in the same service stationed together.

Iudex Fatarum
2007-08-28, 11:37 PM
OK just to post an update of something i had posted a while ago. My friend and the girl he likes have decided now that school is starting back up they will probaby start dating shortly. on a side not it took quite a bit of persuading to convince him that he wasn't a pedophile for having a crush on a good looking girl who is a senior in high school, and he is junior in college only a 2 year difference in age but still kind of funny. Oh well at least they will be happy hopefuly.

ocato
2007-08-28, 11:51 PM
This adultfriendfinder thing has actually ended in me exchanging e-mails with a seemingly interesting person. Someone please explain to me why I am incapable of meeting humans in person. Not to trash the net or its chixorz. I guess this is partially an update and partially a 'wtf'.

Brickwall
2007-08-28, 11:55 PM
Someone please explain to me why I am incapable of meeting humans in person.

Someone please explain to this poor fool that the internet is different from real life. :smalltongue:

Zeb The Troll
2007-08-29, 12:07 AM
This adultfriendfinder thing has actually ended in me exchanging e-mails with a seemingly interesting person.Be careful with that. AFF is notorious for soliciting email addresses so that they can be sold to spammers. Admittedly not everyone is fishing for your data, just be mindful that it can and does happen there, moreso than even other dating services.

Logic
2007-08-29, 02:16 AM
Huh? I thought Military-Military was verboten? Learn something new every day.

And if anyone doubts me, watch Down Periscope. Lieutenant Lake (no idea who plays her) is hot even when her uniform is the right size. Seriously, uniforms are awesome. Do they let you bring them home with you, Logic? :smalltongue:

Bring Lt.s home with me? OF COURSE NOT!

Oh, the uniforms....
Of course. Otherwise I would have to get dressed at work, and that would require a locker room in almost every building.

To semi-counter Zeb's statement about multi-service relationships:

Navy-Marine and Army-Air Force are the least troubling. Mostly because when there is a Marine Base, there is probably a Navy Base nearby. Same for Army-Air Force. It is when you pair two unrelated services to each other that things get really difficult.

However, Zeb is right that the military does not care as much as stationing cross service couples near each other. The Army needs troops here, and the Air Force needs airmen here. Since the branches don't talk to each other unless they have to, managing that is usually up to the couple, and sometimes the only locations that both could serve at are full of people of that line of work. Same service couples have all the work done for them, by their own service branch.

Syka
2007-08-29, 08:15 AM
That whole interservice thing would suck.

I just heard of a...I think AF-civilian couple who just got married. I think two days later, he was shipped to Japan and she got to go along with him. Still not worth it for me...I've had enough long distance to last me (including the unfounded fears of something having happened) without having founded fears of something having happened. :smalleek:

In other news, my hormones know how to hit me below the belt. Just as I'm getting good and ok with everything...I'm craving human contact again.

Still not enough to actively hunt. ;)

Cheers,
Syka

Edit: And yes, military uniforms on EITHER sex is attractive. I was in the JROTC at my school and...yah. Niiice...:smallwink:

Brickwall
2007-08-29, 10:21 AM
I think that's how wars should REALLY be fought. Instead of having fights, they just get the relatively fine-looking military (people with horrible disfigurements might throw it off) dressed up in uniform, go out to an open field, and have a Sexy-Off. The last person standing who hasn't been overwhelmed by sexiness loudly proclaims his country the victor. He also drags the overwhelmed opposing forces into suspicious poses, so that when they awake, they know who's the sexiest. :smallamused:
If there are none but hetero dudes remaining standing, they play strip poker, and the last one left with clothes wins.
If there are none but hetero chicks remaining standing, they catfight.
If there's one gay guy and one gay girl standing, or some other similarly inviable combination of mixed genders, they thumb wrestle.

There, if everyone adopted this method of war, I'd have just figured out world peace. :smallbiggrin:

Uhh, right, Syka, ummm...watch Indiana Jones, Star Wars Original, and Lord of the Rings. After that, real life guys oughta stop turning your head for a bit. :smallamused:

Okay, that one I admit is probably bad advice. I can't imagine that Viggo Mortenson and Harrison Ford (and whoever else in those movies you like) would help stop rampaging sex hormones. Uhh...GET THEE TO A NUNNERY! Yes, Shakespeare solves everything. I'll go with that, final answer.

ocato
2007-08-29, 10:46 AM
Still not enough to actively hunt. ;)

This + wolf avatar = mental picture of some girl jumping on a boy's back in public and biting at his neck until he falls down, bloodied.

PS: for some reason my brain would not allow me to type biting and instead kept typing it with a 'ch' in betwixt the 'bit' and the 'ing'. This does not in any way reflect on my opinion of Syka or other women in general, just thought it was funny.

Dragonrider
2007-08-29, 01:31 PM
Okay, that one I admit is probably bad advice. I can't imagine that Viggo Mortenson and Harrison Ford (and whoever else in those movies you like) would help stop rampaging sex hormones. Uhh...GET THEE TO A NUNNERY! Yes, Shakespeare solves everything. I'll go with that, final answer.

You know, the irony of that is that when Hamlet says "nunnery" it's just 16th century slang for "brothel". Referring to his mother's marrying immediately after his father's death and telling her she belongs in a whorehouse. :smalltongue:

:smallbiggrin: hooray for geeky trivia knowledge!

Brickwall
2007-08-29, 01:44 PM
You know, the irony of that is that when Hamlet says "nunnery" it's just 16th century slang for "brothel". Referring to his mother's marrying immediately after his father's death and telling her she belongs in a whorehouse. :smalltongue:

:smallbiggrin: hooray for geeky trivia knowledge!

And yet, it can still work. :smallamused:

DON'T HURT ME! SHAKESPEARE SAID IT! :smalleek:

Although I'm happy that you used the word "irony" correctly. It's a very abused word. Gooood English nerd, gooood girl. Have a biscuit! :smallbiggrin:

FdL
2007-08-29, 02:00 PM
I think that's how wars should REALLY be fought. Instead of having fights, they just get the relatively fine-looking military (people with horrible disfigurements might throw it off) dressed up in uniform, go out to an open field, and have a Sexy-Off. The last person standing who hasn't been overwhelmed by sexiness loudly proclaims his country the victor. He also drags the overwhelmed opposing forces into suspicious poses, so that when they awake, they know who's the sexiest. :smallamused:


Ok, but with nurses (female, goes without saying).


This + wolf avatar = mental picture of some girl jumping on a boy's back in public and biting at his neck until he falls down, bloodied.


That's a pretty strong image, kinda sexy though at least metaphorically. Thanks for waking my hormones :smallamused:

Brickwall
2007-08-29, 02:10 PM
Ok, but with nurses

Uhhh...that ruins the point, y'know. It's not war if there aren't military uniforms.

rubakhin
2007-08-29, 03:32 PM
Uhhh...that ruins the point, y'know. It's not war if there aren't military uniforms.

What good is war without Red Cross nurses?

Brickwall
2007-08-29, 03:48 PM
What good is war without Red Cross nurses?

Real nurse uniforms aren't as sexy as you think, guys. For one thing, they don't wear miniskirts and garter belts. Sorry for ruining your fantasies. :smallamused:

ocato
2007-08-29, 04:27 PM
Real nurse uniforms aren't as sexy as you think, guys. For one thing, they don't wear miniskirts and garter belts. Sorry for ruining your fantasies. :smallamused:

You lie! You lie! *banging hands on your chest and crying* What makes you lie?! *breaks down crying* What makes you lie??

Iudex Fatarum
2007-08-29, 04:40 PM
I work in an ER and while I don't wear scrubs because i'm a secretary all the nurses just wear navy blue scrubs. Plus some of the people I already see to much of, i mean there are some just plain ugly nurses out there and some good looking ones too.

rubakhin
2007-08-29, 05:08 PM
Sorry for ruining your fantasies.

Meh. Don't worry about it, I was already gay.

I've also been in hospitals way too many times to find anything even remotely medically-oriented erotic. Not that the frumpy scrubs of reality are particularly inspiring. Ick.

Zeb The Troll
2007-08-29, 06:33 PM
*looks around, raises hand, meekly stands up at his first meeting of Scrubs Are Sexy Anonymous*

Hi, my name is Zeb and I think scrubs are sexy.

Hi, Zeb. *mild applause from the gathered*

*nods and sits back down*

PhoeKun
2007-08-29, 06:40 PM
On the right guy (or girl. I'm not picky), anything can be sexy. Although personally, I've got a thing for long coats.

...what?

Zeb The Troll
2007-08-29, 06:45 PM
True enough. On both counts actually.

*starts humming 'Short Skirt, Long Jacket'*

Brickwall
2007-08-29, 06:54 PM
Y'know, all this might want its own thread. "Clothes you find attractive". Yeah, that works, I'll start it up now. We can move this discussion there.

Syka
2007-08-29, 08:26 PM
This + wolf avatar = mental picture of some girl jumping on a boy's back in public and biting at his neck until he falls down, bloodied.

PS: for some reason my brain would not allow me to type biting and instead kept typing it with a 'ch' in betwixt the 'bit' and the 'ing'. This does not in any way reflect on my opinion of Syka or other women in general, just thought it was funny.

You brought to mind this (http://www.somethingpositive.net/sp06022004.shtml) comic...


...which oddly enough my friend attributed the last panel as what I would do. :smallbiggrin:

Cheers,
Syka

ocato
2007-08-29, 08:35 PM
I used to love S*P but it sort of lost my interest when it got a little too soap opera-y.

FdL
2007-08-29, 10:10 PM
Real nurse uniforms aren't as sexy as you think, guys. For one thing, they don't wear miniskirts and garter belts. Sorry for ruining your fantasies. :smallamused:

Yeah, that's true :frown:

Please stop killing my fantasies :p They're all I have right now, you know ^^

I've never seen a cute nurse with a short skirt (let alone garterbelt, OMG), but in my dentists place the girls wore short medical-oriented uniforms and were all gorgeous. Seriously, that place is crazy. Makes me want to smash my teeth with a blunt object. In fact...

Logic
2007-08-29, 10:14 PM
Yeah, that's true :frown:

Please stop killing my fantasies :p They're all I have right now, you know ^^

I've never seen a cute nurse with a short skirt (let alone garterbelt, OMG), but in my dentists place the girls wore short medical-oriented uniforms and were all gorgeous. Seriously, that place is crazy. Makes me want to smash my teeth with a blunt object. In fact...

Just make sure you leave enough of them to still speak properly. Otherwise, you have defeated the purpose of the dentist's visit.

phoenixineohp
2007-08-29, 10:22 PM
What good is war without Red Cross nurses?

Umm... I don't usually read this thread since I thought it was for advice and all, and I have no right to give advice on this topic. At least anything that is useful to most people.

However after seeing the other thread I wondered how it could come up. Low and behold.

And my two cents on this? Both my grandmothers were nurses, one during the war, one after. That is my strongest association with those crisp white nurse outfits.

*shudders*

@V First post and it gets a bolded reply? :smalleek: Sheesh.

Brickwall
2007-08-29, 10:29 PM
Go over to the pretty thread I made for you. I made it to keep this thread on topic. Discuss nurse uniforms over there. Thank you.

Serpentine
2007-08-29, 10:34 PM
*starts humming 'Short Skirt, Long Jacket'*
Awesome.

Zeb wins. Everyone else gets hives.

Alarra
2007-08-29, 10:38 PM
short skirt - check
long jacket - check
scrubs - check
military uniform - drat...i knew my extensive wardrobe was missing something...

Right, so....anyone have a relationship woe? Mine's perfect or I'd attempt to bring the topic back on track.

ocato
2007-08-29, 10:47 PM
okay, back on track, back on track.

I quit the drinking, yay, but I still sorta feel crappy about being here. I don't quite understand how people do so well at socialization. I am sort of considering applying for an opinion columnist position at the school paper to get out there and meet some folks but the application is due Friday and I have to write 2 columns. And I have no idea what to write. Seems like a foolhardy idea to say the least. At least when I was drunk the time flew by. I definately spent too much money to come out here.

Better?

Logic
2007-08-29, 10:47 PM
Nothing for the last 2 and a half years, I'm afraid. Unless lacking a relationship counts as a woe in your book.

FdL
2007-08-29, 10:47 PM
Not only I don't have a relationship, I'm starting to doubt I'll ever have it again.

Especially since I realized every time I have asked a girl out "for a cup of coffee" I've killed my future with her. They act as if I had told them something awfully tactless, like "I have a room waiting for us to haver sex right now". I might as well start telling them that. The effect will be the same, unless it actually works...

Aw, man. I'm depressed :smallfrown:


Just make sure you leave enough of them to still speak properly. Otherwise, you have defeated the purpose of the dentist's visit.

Touchee! ^^

Alarra
2007-08-29, 10:55 PM
okay, back on track, back on track.

I quit the drinking, yay, but I still sorta feel crappy about being here. I don't quite understand how people do so well at socialization. I am sort of considering applying for an opinion columnist position at the school paper to get out there and meet some folks but the application is due Friday and I have to write 2 columns. And I have no idea what to write. Seems like a foolhardy idea to say the least. At least when I was drunk the time flew by. I definately spent too much money to come out here.

Better?

School papers are great places to meet people and a lot of fun to work on too. Hmm....column ideas, column ideas....write what you know. When I started out at my paper I wrote a column on decorating your dorm room cheaply and artistically. And try to keep it light and funny. If nothing else you could always write about socialization fears or about drinking. The funniest book I've ever read was a memoir about an alcoholic going through rehab....believe me, when you can make such a downer of a topic laugh out loud funny, it shows a real skill at writing and humor. At least in my opinion.

FoE
2007-08-29, 11:22 PM
Not only I don't have a relationship, I'm starting to doubt I'll ever have it again. Especially since I realized every time I have asked a girl out "for a cup of coffee" I've killed my future with her. They act as if I had told them something awfully tactless, like "I have a room waiting for us to haver sex right now". I might as well start telling them that. The effect will be the same, unless it actually works...

I share your same pain, FDL. That's why I don't bother asking out women unless the signals are glaringly obvious, ie. she just whispered in my ear "I want you..." And nine times out of 10, I'll still have misheard her, ie. " I want you...to get out of my way, so I can use the fax machine."

zeratul
2007-08-29, 11:30 PM
I would like to take this opportunity to mention thte girl i like dyed part of her hair purple. :smallamused: *droolzorz*

Midnight Son
2007-08-29, 11:34 PM
I would like to take this opportunity to mention thte girl i like dyed part of her hair purple. :smallamused: *droolzorz*Fixed that for you. Before I got to the second line, I was feeling really sad for you. Then I realized what you were meaning and now I'm all happy for you. Tell us she likes you back and we'll throw a party.

zeratul
2007-08-29, 11:35 PM
Fixed that for you. Before I got to the second line, I was feeling really sad for you. Then I realized what you were meaning and now I'm all happy for you. Tell us she likes you back and we'll throw a party.

I'm still not sure if she does. I must work on my wooing skill.

Midnight Son
2007-08-29, 11:36 PM
I'm still not sure if she does. I must work on my wooing skill.A tip? avoid getting any of that drool in her new sexy purple.

FdL
2007-08-29, 11:48 PM
I share your same pain, FDL. That's why I don't bother asking out women unless the signals are glaringly obvious, ie. she just whispered in my ear "I want you..." And nine times out of 10, I'll still have misheard her, ie. " I want you...to get out of my way, so I can use the fax machine."

I've spent the last 30 minutes reading Questionable Content, thanks to the several mentions and quotes of it I found today across this forums. It's quite good. I can't believe there's 900 plus strips for me to read. I hope I can get up to date before I die.

Anyway, they mention this "Second Law of Sexual Dynamics". I think we've talked about this before, it's about how we guys don't realize when a girl wants us.

So I'd do what you say, but it would reduce my chances to negative numbers, and besides, you know? It's a cruel joke of destiny that at this point of my life when I've learned* to ask girls out and be totally sincere about my feelings, in an adult way, I have no one who likes me back, even a little.

This is starting to suck...But meh, I've already been terribly depressed on tuesday, I guess it's enough for this week.



*This is only a guess, judging for the reactions I said I get to "a cup of cofee". The last time the girl's answer was something that would translate as "really? you think so?" while pulling a face that looks a lot like ":s"

zeratul
2007-08-29, 11:50 PM
A tip? avoid getting any of that drool in her new sexy purple.

Heh, yeah I will. I still suck at wooing, I must improve! Actually id probably be good at it if i weren't so shy.

Zeb The Troll
2007-08-30, 12:00 AM
'Tis true. Being all shy like and woo-ing are mutually exclusive endeavors. I don't think you need us to tell you that you should work on overcoming the shy by just gettin' out there and doin' it. Admittedly it's easier said than done, but once the sayin's over, the doin's the only thing left. So go. Do it. You've got the ideal setup here in that you're almost assured to not get a negative response.

*gently pushes zeratul over towards the sassy purple haired girl and gives him the thumbs up*

Serpentine
2007-08-30, 12:03 AM
I would like to take this opportunity to mention thte girl i like dyed part of her hair purple. :smallamused: *droolzorz*
Be sure to tell her you like it.

zeratul
2007-08-30, 12:04 AM
Be sure to tell her you like it.

I beleive I said it was ten kinds of awesome. If i had been on line I may have said it was teh hotzorz.

Serpentine
2007-08-30, 12:07 AM
Well... I guess that works.

zeratul
2007-08-30, 12:08 AM
Well... I guess that works.

I sense your disaproval, what should I have said. (I'll say it some time)

Serpentine
2007-08-30, 12:12 AM
Heh, no, not that much disapproval. Sounds like you're good friends, so that really does work, I assume. If you want to hint that you're interested, though, and to make her feel really special... telling her, you know, kinda more seriously, that she looks really good like that (if it's true, even go for beautiful) would probably be a bit better. No real disapproval to sense, though ^_^

zeratul
2007-08-30, 12:14 AM
Heh, no, not that much disapproval. Sounds like you're good friends, so that really does work, I assume. If you want to hint that you're interested, though, and to make her feel really special... telling her, you know, kinda more seriously, that she looks really good like that (if it's true, even go for beautiful) would probably be a bit better. No real disapproval to sense, though ^_^

I'm afraid it would sound weird. Even though shes the type of person who wouldn't think it's weird. Just me being parranoid.

Zeb The Troll
2007-08-30, 12:18 AM
I suspect that your phrasing is more or less appropriate for someone your age, zeratul, but generally speaking something less lingo-ey would probably go further. For example, "Hey, I really like how that looks on you," or simply, "Hey, that looks great!" Given the right circumstances, though, anything could be appropriate. If you got a positive response from her, don't sweat it.

zeratul
2007-08-30, 12:22 AM
Yeah, I need to try to be morecharming like I usually am, let it begin!


True enough. On both counts actually.

*starts humming 'Short Skirt, Long Jacket'*

Heh, awesome song

Altharis
2007-08-30, 01:43 AM
I have the problem of being able to be really social and nice and friendly to the girl I like....until anyone even mentions making a move...then I get all "PANIC STATIONS" and curl up into a foetal position. Oh, and I see hints of a relationship when there aren't any and no hints when there are some. It's very saddening.

Vuzzmop
2007-08-30, 02:04 AM
I went to a party last friday, and met a really nice girl:smallsmile: , but just did exactly what I always do, put a mask on and make jokes until I can escape the situation by jumping for the chip bowel or talking to someone else:smallfrown: . I can't believe this, it always happens this way with me. Eh, back to the status quo like always.:smallfrown:

Altharis
2007-08-30, 02:11 AM
Sounds a bit like me....I know exactly how you feel Vuzzmop, and I know for a fact that soooo many others do as well. If missed gf's were money, I'd be rich....

Zeb The Troll
2007-08-30, 02:35 AM
Okay, so I'm reading this and a thought occurs to me. I'll admit to being as shy as anyone but I've been working pretty hard at overcoming that and it's starting to pay off now that I'm doing it in earnest. (For cryin' out loud I just turned 36. What have I got to lose at this point?) So anyway, I had this idea and I'm curious if this approach would work for the confidence challenged person who would like to put out feelers for reciprocated interest.

What if you were to just say, at some point, something like "Hey, you know, it's been fun talking to you/hanging out with you/whatever. Let me give you my email/phone number and we can keep in touch." This lets you declare an interest on some level without having to go the distance and puts the proverbial ball in the other person's court. If they call/write then you've got a means to further the relationship and you know that there's an interest on some level in any case. If not, you're not out anything because you're not left standing there in awkward silence. Right?

Admittedly it's a slower approach than "Hey, you wanna get a coffee sometime or something?" but it's still forward progress while you work on your confidence building. And who knows, you might even get a chance to show him/her a side of you they hadn't seen which could seal the deal for you.

What do you folks think? Would you be able to do that more easily than a more traditional inquiry? If someone were to say something like that to you, how would you take it? Does this have any merit at all or am I just a windbag? (Yes, I realize the two descriptors are not mutually exclusive. :smallcool: )

Serpentine
2007-08-30, 02:49 AM
I've done this on train trips. I don't think any communication ever lasted very long, if it happened at all, but it's never been a big deal. If you strike up a conversation with someone and find them interesting, that's a great idea.

Alarra
2007-08-30, 06:59 AM
If you just meet someone, I can see that working very well. If it's someone they know from school or that they've talked to quite a few times, I can see it seeming a bit awkward, especially with that kind of phrasing. Myself, I've always been the shy girl that wouldn't have responded to them even if they did do so. Well, actually, until this past year, because somehow over the past year I've become much less shy and will now actually call and email people.

Rykaj
2007-08-30, 07:35 AM
Say your comments as of late got me kind of confused about the following. Do you guys first have a relationship and then start with mushy-squishy relations stuff (kissing, cuddling etc.) or do you start with that first and based on that you begin a relationship? I hope that question was formulated in a comprehensive way. For me it was, but hell, I already know what I mean :smallwink:

Zeb The Troll
2007-08-30, 07:44 AM
Say your comments as of late got me kind of confused about the following. Do you guys first have a relationship and then start with mushy-squishy relations stuff (kissing, cuddling etc.) or do you start with that first and based on that you begin a relationship? I hope that question was formulated in a comprehensive way. For me it was, but hell, I already know what I mean :smallwink:If I'm understanding you right, typically I get involved with people that I know in some fashion already. There's always been a basic friendship before the ooey gooey stuff. Of course, that may have a lot to do with the fact that until recently I only went out with girls who approached me. Nah. I don't think I'd be romantically interested in a girl I didn't know at least a little bit beforehand.

Heineken
2007-08-30, 08:37 AM
Say your comments as of late got me kind of confused about the following. Do you guys first have a relationship and then start with mushy-squishy relations stuff (kissing, cuddling etc.) or do you start with that first and based on that you begin a relationship? I hope that question was formulated in a comprehensive way. For me it was, but hell, I already know what I mean :smallwink:

There is no "right" or "wrong" point of time to start out with the physical stuff.
It will be different in every relationship you´ll ever enter. Some people want to wait, others are a little more "open".
Whatever you do, don´t try to force anything. That won´t make things better.

The Vorpal Tribble
2007-08-30, 08:52 AM
*bursts out of his shell because he just has to vent a bit*

There is someone I've known most my life who I have been in love with for many, many years. When we were both stupid little teens I revealed this and basically alienated her. Both too young, and I did it really badly.

10 years later I'm only now finally getting her to warm back up enough so that we can have daily conversations.

I've waited this long because I've yet to find anyone who is even a fiftieth as perfect for me. However, no matter what she either can't or won't see it. She is one of the most intelligent people I know... except when it comes to me. It's then like her brain shuts off.

She recently wrote in a blog of hers everything she wants in a guy, and except for her taste in condiments she might as well have been describing me. She then ends however with, "But I've yet to find this person."

I feel just like Roy when he said he'd found someone who was everything he'd ever wanted and really just wanted to kick her in the head.

A bit of her blog entry with my responses (no, didn't actually respond to her blog with these)

Traits I'm looking for

"I want to meet a guy who respects and appreciates life in general; who respects himself, me and others."
I try to respect myself and others, and I most certainly respect her. We once got into a fight and she asked me to please, just leave her alone. Though it broke my heart I left her be for 2 years. Her mom literally came looking for me and got the both of us to talking again.

"Someone who likes and eventually wants their own, children and animals."
I love children. I work at the YMCA and coach six year olds soccer team.

I literally live in what most would calls a small petting zoo.

I want nothing more than to have my own children with this person. I have had numerous dreams even of her having a baby and us naming it together.

"I want a guy who has his own friends (guys and girls) and allows me to have mine."
Whoops, ok, hit a small snag. I don't have a great many friends outside of her family, but she is perfectly allowed to have her own. I'm not even sure I fully understand this requirement.

"I want to meet the kind of guy who is not going to call me 25 thousand times a day."
I'd find that horribly irritating myself. When I've waited years for this girl, just a few minutes a day would be precious to me.

"Who has his own life and doesn't mind if I have mine."
This is iffy, as I'm pretty sure a relationship means you share a life. If she just means, 'You do your own thing, and I'll do mine.' thats fine.

"I want someone who is interested in me and someone who will actually listen to what I have to say. "
I have tried to get this girl to actually talk, seriously talk, for years. I want to know her thoughts and how she feels. This is a requirement she's going to have to have a hand in.

"Someone who will trust me with their secrets and that I can trust with mine."
I'd trust her with anything, and you better believe she can trust me.

"We don't have to share all the same common interests just a desire to find a common ground."
We have this in so many ways.

"I want a guy who is kind and gentle, but who is strong when he needs to be."
How do you think I got my nickThe Vorpal Tribble? I'm usually just this gentle guy, but I have fangs when I need to.

"I want someone who is passionate about life and about me and who allows me to be passionate about him."
I want her to be passionate about me so much my heart aches. If I wasn't passionate about her I wouldn't have bothered waiting this long.

"I don't have to have the flowers and candy, he doesn't have to say and do all the right things."
I hope she doesn't mind if I want to make the attempt though.

"I want someone I can be myself with and who makes me laugh."
I have made her laugh all the time.

"I want to meet my soul mate."
Open your eyes!


Turn Ons

"Love of music."
Check. I'm not a fanatic about her favorite type of music, but I enjoy it.

"Appreciates the artistic and creative things in the world."
I'm a writer, a poet, and a photographer.

"Can read and even better if he likes to read."
I love to read. I read more than she who posted this in fact.

"If he's tall"
I'm only slightly above average, but I'm 9 inches taller than her.

"Likes ketchup and or Tabasco sauce."
Ok, in the course of this entire test this is the one thing I do no qualify for. I detest both.

"You can't fake an inner goofiness and a true dork is irresistible. (Yes, I like the "aw shucks" kind of guy.)"
A picture is worth a thousand responses to this...

http://my.photosleeve.com/TheVorpalTribble-albums/album03/afq.jpg

"Hair, I like hair…on your head."
I... think I qualify.

"I know I said it before but I MUST stress a sense of humor."
*raises his hand and waves it around*

You know what I think the problem is? I'm over-qualified!

Vampire包子
2007-08-30, 09:00 AM
Say your comments as of late got me kind of confused about the following. Do you guys first have a relationship and then start with mushy-squishy relations stuff (kissing, cuddling etc.) or do you start with that first and based on that you begin a relationship? I hope that question was formulated in a comprehensive way. For me it was, but hell, I already know what I mean
It really does depend on the people and the type of relationship they want.

If you meet in a bar and are drunk, chances are the physical stuff will start soon, and you'll go from zero to sixty in one night. Same with nightclubs, etc. But consider the type of people that frequent those areas, and the types of relationships they have.

Longer-term, healthier relationships (that is a subjective judgement on my part, and a value-based one at that, sorry), tend not to start that way. It's possible, but those generally do have some basis, a seed that feelings can grow from. A relationship doesn't really take root if its basis is solely in physicality.
Of course, if that's what your looking for, well, easy enough to find :smalltongue:

My girlfriend was my student at first (not formally, just tutoring her in English, but still a no-dating clause), and then we were friends for a bit longer, we knew each other extremely well before we became romantically/intimately involved. It's very good if you are risk-averse, there is less chance of getting hurt/getting too involved with someone who turns out to be a bad bet.
Of course, this is more beneficial for the gals, less chance of getting stuck with a jerk, and making him wait will show whether he is serious or just wants to get laid. Guys, even if she hates him later, he can say, "at least I got laid!". Ahhh, cultural double standards make that okay. Sorry, should stop before I start ranting incoherently, I think I sound like a jerk already :smallconfused:

mdsoze
2007-08-30, 09:01 AM
TVT,

Part of the problem may be that she can't see you that way, just cause she's known you for that long.

For me, pretty much anyone I knew before the age of say 13 was off-limits once I got over my middle school crushes and started thinking about dating. Dating people that I knew before that would feel like dating a sibling, at least, too me.

Maybe that's how she feels about you, like making out with you would be like making out with her brother. And no matter how nice, responsible, qualified you are, ultimately, if making out with you is going to feel incestuous, it's not going to work.

Just my random thoughts....

Brickwall
2007-08-30, 10:02 AM
VT, it is entirely possible that she's a horrible shallow person, and somehow is not attracted to you (I can't begin to fathom WHY, but some people don't have good taste). Although TPAM is more likely right, don't consider it a Large greatsword through the heart if you ever find that out. No matter what anyone of any gender says, no matter how they act, they have a chance of selecting based on looks.

You really might be over-qualified. She might actually have said to herself "I want a guy just like VT, but not him". HUMANS ARE WEIRD. For instance, most guys would be happier in a relationship with someone who is like their mother. It's not an Oedipal complex, it's just that the way a parent raises a child does have a profound effect on their likes and dislikes. In a similar vein, she might have based her list off YOU, but the person couldn't actually be you. If that's the case, I'm sorry.

I do have some advice: make sure she sees that picture sometime. Meanwhile, I would like your permission to turn it into an internet meme. It deserves it. :smallbiggrin:

The Vorpal Tribble
2007-08-30, 10:28 AM
TVT,

Part of the problem may be that she can't see you that way, just cause she's known you for that long.
Thats an interesting idea, take some explaining, but I'm pretty sure it isn't the case. She's doesn't even have a brother. Was basically just a long-time friend, and she has said many times that her soulmate would have to also be her best friend.


VT, it is entirely possible that she's a horrible shallow person, and somehow is not attracted to you
The latter, quite possibly. The former... I wouldn't think so. Even the 'really smoking guys' she's gone out with have never made it to a second date with her... which is generally because they propose hanky panky before they're done with the first course


No matter what anyone of any gender says, no matter how they act, they have a chance of selecting based on looks.
Gee, thanks :smalltongue:


For instance, most guys would be happier in a relationship with someone who is like their mother.
:smalleek:

Thankfully I am not most guys then... in fact, I would say that this girl is nearly the polar opposite of my mother.

*shudders*


I do have some advice: make sure she sees that picture sometime. Meanwhile, I would like your permission to turn it into an internet meme. It deserves it.
You mean I could be up there with the greats? Y'know, like the Star Wars kid? http://forums.gleemax.com/images/smilies/eek.gif

mdsoze
2007-08-30, 10:49 AM
Not saying you aren't right, but the fact that she doesn't have a brother doesn't mean she couldn't see you as the one she never had.

I've been called that a few times in my life.

As always, YMMV.

Brickwall
2007-08-30, 11:22 AM
As always, YMMV.

"Your Mother Makes Viagra"?
"Yoshi Mork Mindy Vash"?

You fail at helpful abbreviations, my friend. Either that, or I'm out of some loop here.

mdsoze
2007-08-30, 11:58 AM
Your Mileage May Vary. Standard car disclaimer.

rubakhin
2007-08-30, 12:44 PM
VT:

That was the most generic list I've ever heard in my life. I'm willing to bet that would describe a third of the population, if not more. You see it as describing you wholly and in detail, that is only cognitive dissonance, my friend.

Listen, what she wants from you is friendship. The love, the attraction, it is not cerebral. If it were, you would think to yourself, "I have no chance with this girl, I must move on," and be able to do it. Perhaps it is simply that she can't make any physical attraction to you. It doesn't make her shallow. In fact, if she has no attraction to you, better that she doesn't date you. Rather, it causes a lot of problems in the relationship if they don't have any physical pull towards another person. The sex life in particular. You cannot force any sort of romantic or physical spark. What you should do is value your friendship with this girl, value that you can be with her in some way.

When I was in my teenage years, I was good-looking, and had a reputation for being dangerous and exciting. So I always had women. Nearly every girl I knew was in love with me. Whenever a girl who had been a friend before announced that she had a crush on me, that she wanted me, I would always try to date her a little, but it never worked out. I wasn't attracted to them, and not even sexually but I wouldn't feel drawn to touch them, kiss them, or lie in bed with them. I felt uneasy, slightly repelled, even when only holding them. (Really, try to imagine doing any of these things with a male friend, or an unattractive female acquaintance.) I didn't mean to, but when in those relationships I would become very distant and very cold. I'd start to get annoyed with them, resentful, restless. I would miss the old friendship that we had. The girls would be angry that all of a sudden I was so cold to them. They'd cheat on me, I'd start going to rentboys, all sorts of things. I never thought I was capable of such coldness! I would always treat my friends very well, with sensitivity, chivalry, and respect, but I couldn't date them without causing problems. Still, I'd stay with them for months because on a cerebral level, I'd think things like "She loves me so much, we've been friends for years, and considering these facets of our personalities [insert big long list like yours] we should be a perfect match. Theoretically, it's just a matter of time before I fall in love with her." This is the kind of relationship that you would have with this poor girl if you started to date her. You can't want that.

The Vorpal Tribble
2007-08-30, 03:32 PM
You see it as describing you wholly and in detail, that is only cognitive dissonance, my friend.
*chuckles*

Naw, thats just part of the blog.


Listen, what she wants from you is friendship. The love, the attraction, it is not cerebral.
Well, its taken me just the better part of the year just to get it back up to friendship.

We haven't actually met in some 6 years, and believe me, I've changed alot between 18 and 24, in mind, face and form. As said, I'm mainly just venting. Her mom has already talked about us all meeting someplace and actually talking in person instead of just over the internet/phone. Live a goodly ways from these folk currently and all.

Sir_Norbert
2007-08-30, 07:15 PM
Still, I'd stay with them for months because on a cerebral level, I'd think things like "She loves me so much, we've been friends for years, and considering these facets of our personalities [insert big long list like yours] we should be a perfect match. Theoretically, it's just a matter of time before I fall in love with her." This is the kind of relationship that you would have with this poor girl if you started to date her. You can't want that.
This is not necessarily the case.

I got together with my girlfriend in the first place because she was madly in love with me, and while I didn't really reciprocate, I wanted to find someone I could be happy with, I thought maybe she was the one, and she promised me it didn't matter if it didn't work out, we'd always be friends. It's now three months on and how our relationship started doesn't matter any more; we both love each other and we want to stay together for ever and start a family. So you never know. For every story you can tell about relationships, someone out there has a story that starts the same and ends the opposite way.

FdL
2007-08-30, 09:34 PM
Okay, so I'm reading this and a thought occurs to me. I'll admit to being as shy as anyone but I've been working pretty hard at overcoming that and it's starting to pay off now that I'm doing it in earnest. (For cryin' out loud I just turned 36. What have I got to lose at this point?) So anyway, I had this idea and I'm curious if this approach would work for the confidence challenged person who would like to put out feelers for reciprocated interest.

What if you were to just say, at some point, something like "Hey, you know, it's been fun talking to you/hanging out with you/whatever. Let me give you my email/phone number and we can keep in touch." This lets you declare an interest on some level without having to go the distance and puts the proverbial ball in the other person's court. If they call/write then you've got a means to further the relationship and you know that there's an interest on some level in any case. If not, you're not out anything because you're not left standing there in awkward silence. Right?

Admittedly it's a slower approach than "Hey, you wanna get a coffee sometime or something?" but it's still forward progress while you work on your confidence building. And who knows, you might even get a chance to show him/her a side of you they hadn't seen which could seal the deal for you.

What do you folks think? Would you be able to do that more easily than a more traditional inquiry? If someone were to say something like that to you, how would you take it? Does this have any merit at all or am I just a windbag? (Yes, I realize the two descriptors are not mutually exclusive. :smallcool: )

Pros:
- It's less "aggresive" than asking out straight in the moment, so it won't spook them. Then again, it's usually a good moment to show determination, and "aggressiveness" to an extent.
- It opens the possibility for a call on her part, which might mean she's into you.
- Knowing each other a little is always good, so if you don't know her at all it could be positive, though if she doesn't like you you want even get that call back. I think it's simple: you risk more, you gain more.

Cons:
- Only delays rejection. In all, I'd rather take it in the face at that moment.
- It's awful to wait for a call. I don't want to be in that position. I've been before, mind you.
- You're not clearly defining the sort of relationship you want to have with her. I don't want to be "a guy she knows" or a contact among hundreds in her cell, or even worse, an IM pal. In fact, I despise the IM thing, I'm struggling right now to break a relationship out of the confines of the internet.*
- Also, whenever I've done the asking for phone thing it's happened that I'm not fully interested in her, because then I never do. So it's better to define things as they are in the meeting time.


Hey, regarding this, what do you think of someone talking up to you in the street? Would you feel intimidated, girls? It's too aggressive and I run the risk of getting tazered or sprayed with mace, judo-ed down to the floor or something? Because I see a lot of nice looking girls in the street.

The other day there it was this "girl walking puppy" situation. I was at a hair's breadth of telling her something but then I somehow chickened out. I instantly regretted it. Not gonna happen again.



* Dammit, she won't let me see her even a minute! (for those who keep track, I'm talking about MR)
Last night we chatted again on IM. She logs in and starts the conversations herself. I was depressed and she was great, she talked me into a better mood ^^

Then she told me she had broken up with the guy she was dating...And to an ambiguous response of mine to something she said about being well despite, she asked me if I was glad she was through with him. I got serious and asked her if she really thought I'd be happy, to which she replied like saying "weeeeeeeeeeeeellll you knowwwww :p" kind of thing.

I got serious again and told her that I liked her, I thought she was great and had already asked her out before because I think it would be cool to see her, but that knowing she didn't want me I'd prefer if she was happy with someone else. To which she promptly replied another rejection phrase, followed by "now I want to be alone etc"...

Still I think there's something weird with her. I have to figure her out a little, but I might be starting to.


@TVT: She sees you as a friend. Meaning she can't see you. It sucks, I've been there too many times to have grown to avoid that position. Once you're the friend, you're the friend. I mean, you're basically giving them more room for the already ambiguous non-defining attitude women can have. Go figure.

Sir_Norbert
2007-08-31, 08:52 AM
@TVT: She sees you as a friend. Meaning she can't see you. It sucks, I've been there too many times to have grown to avoid that position. Once you're the friend, you're the friend. I mean, you're basically giving them more room for the already ambiguous non-defining attitude women can have. Go figure.

Here is wisdom. Listen to it. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2887584&postcount=1264)

Serpentine
2007-08-31, 08:59 AM
Thank you Norbert. Saved me the effort of having to repeat myself.

mdsoze
2007-08-31, 09:09 AM
I think you're misunderstanding the "friend bin" concept, or at least, why it's effective for guys.

I'd say the useful part of the "friend bin" metaphor is the understanding that just because a female friend is nice to you, enjoys your company, et cetera, doesn't necessarily mean that she's interested in fooling around with you. Some guys understand this instinctively, some need to be extensively beaten with the clue bat before they get it.

I'd also say that what the "friend bin" is trying to teach is that you can't make someone love you. If someone doesn't love you, there is no way to make them love you, they have to choose you as well, on some level.

Then I think the productive part of that is that the "friend bin" tries to tell guy X who is hopelessly smitten with woman Y when that love is unrequited is that he most likely doesn't have a chance with her, and that instead of putting effort into try to win her, he should instead be putting effort into improving himself, and turning himself into a more attractive and interesting person. Then he should move on, try to meet woman Z or woman Q, or even stop trying to meet women at all.

I think the "friend bin" is just a coping mechanism/excuse some guys use when things don't work out. But just because it isn't a completely accurate picture of what's going on, doesn't mean that it isn't a useful model in certain circumstances.

Serpentine
2007-08-31, 09:19 AM
I think I can see that, even I still find myself being somewhat offended by it. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be the way it's used here, most of the time.

Brickwall
2007-08-31, 09:39 AM
I would personally like to see some proof that the "friend bin" doesn't exist. Somebody come in here and tell me one instance where the concept hasn't held true.

Yes, as I have stated here before, the only girl I had a crush on ever had me stuck there. I have some good ideas as to why, considering that after I found out I was in there I went through the trouble of finding out all I could, and from the reasons I gathered, I was sure I'd never get out. Ever. And that was the end of the crushing. I got over it. I sat there in the bin making buddies with the other guy there. Nice guy.

I would also like to point out that the "bin" metaphor directly implies changeability by the female in question. All it means is that the guy can't do anything to change it by himself.

Midnight Son
2007-08-31, 10:17 AM
I have proof that the friend bin does exist, as well as proof that you can find your way out of it.

First, proof of existence:

I quote my very good female friend here. "I wish a had a boyfriend like you...but not you."

When I lived in Vegas, I spent a good portion of my time with this girl. I was madly in love with her and she knew it, but she did not feel the same.

Second, proof of exit ability:

I have a friend who's been my friend from about the time I turned 14. I left Alaska for five years and, when I went back, we started dating.

Getting out of the friend bin is hard and requires that you not constantly throw yourself at her. You must play it cool. You will not change her mind. Ever. If it's going to happen, it's because she makes the decision.

Now for my advice. When you find yourself in the situation I was in in Vegas, make use of the fact. You have a very good female friend who does not mind being in your presence. She, I'm sure, has quite a few female friends...

Rykaj
2007-08-31, 10:32 AM
The friend bin is male invention for the simple reason that male and female minds work completely differently apparently.

Hypothesis:
When a guy meets a girl, start chatting, maybe become friends etc. The guy will make a quick decision, either: "Wow she's pretty cool, I could maybe see us being more than friends", or "Ah she's cool to hang out with, I wouldn't want anything more though". I'm saying that a guy categorizes girls he meets and based on that he thinks women probably do the same. Well apparently from your posts a girl doesn't even think about it until she gets signals from a guy. So if you get stuck in the 'friend bin' it is because you haven't even made the girl aware that you might be an available party.

Now this is probably way off, but I'm curious what you think.

Midnight Son
2007-08-31, 10:35 AM
Well apparently from your posts a girl doesn't even think about it until she gets signals from a guy. So if you get stuck in the 'friend bin' it is because you haven't even made the girl aware that you might be an available party.

Now this is probably way off, but I'm curious what you think.Please see my post on this subject. You can't miss it. It's the one right above yours.

I'll even quote you the relevant portion.


When I lived in Vegas, I spent a good portion of my time with this girl. I was madly in love with her and she knew it, but she did not feel the same.

MountainKing
2007-08-31, 10:38 AM
Well, I came to the startling realization the other day that, slowly but surely, I am turning into my father. The realization has left me depressed, upset; it's a thoroughly devastating thing to realize.

I mean, sure, my dad and I have our differences; that's a given. It's the simularities that terrify me, and I promise that I have a point, and this does belong in this thread, so please, continue to bear with.

My father, I am convinced, will die with a laptop in his hands. He owns and operates a WISP in a rural area, and services nearly five hundred customers with just himself, me, our office manager (who handles billing and some tech support), and Paul, our installer/tower climber. He wakes up at like, five in the morning, boots up, and starts his business day. He checks email, checks the system monitor, and then comes down to the office at nine. From there, on a typical day, he goes home at five, and then cracks open his laptop and checks his business email and monitors the system for at least another three hours. For the most part, he dozes from nine until midnight, and then is totally out at midnight. He is, for lack of a better way to put it, a workaholic... and lately, I've been doing the exact same thing. I throw myself at my work because it keeps me busy and wears me out; most of the time, I'm out of work between five and seven, and then I come home and pass out at eleven, before I wake up at eight in the morning to get ready for work.

I understand that this is hardly conducive to meeting new people, particularly women, and it bothers me that I find so much outright *comfort* from distracting myself from what I want (specifically, a relationship, potentially even a relationship that turns into "Ah wub yoo" type nonsense), particularly because the thing I'm distracting myself with is something that I don't *like*. I don't care for working here; tech support is probably the most retarded job I've ever had. I mean, if I weren't a masochist, I'd probably have left years ago, but since I'm a sucker for punishment, I just kinda stay here.

What should I do? Adopt a fast paced nightlife and sleep less?

Serpentine
2007-08-31, 10:39 AM
I'm gonna gracefully withdraw from this discussion, cuz I think I've said all I can in the post quoted. I just want to clarify that it's the apparent belief that the so-called friend-bin is the be-all and end-all and entirely immutable that really gets to me.

Midnight Son
2007-08-31, 10:48 AM
I'm gonna gracefully withdraw from this discussion, cuz I think I've said all I can in the post quoted. I just want to clarify that it's the apparent belief that the so-called friend-bin is the be-all and end-all and entirely immutable that really gets to me.Ahh, then we are in agreement. I have dated girls who were friends to begin with. I have also wanted to date girls who were friends. The only time I have ever considered myself in the friend bin was with my friend in Vegas. The fact that she told me she was looking for a guy like me, but did not want that guy to be me, was quite the hint as to where I stood.

ZombieRockStar
2007-08-31, 11:21 AM
*pokes head into discussion because he wants to ask a related question, despite the fact that he admits that he really doesn't like this thread for reasons he's not going to go into*

Am I really so odd in that, to me, Ego is not only my girlfriend but also my best friend? Is it weird that I love her as a friend (probably the closest friend I've ever had) while also being in love with her? I'm just asking because people seem to consider the two mutually exclusive, with the "friendship bin" (as Serp eloquently pointed out to be very demeaning) and the idiotic and rather sexist maxim of "bros before hos" or it's more polite variant of "girls come and go but friends are forever." (Seriously...you make a relationship sound like a goddamn commodity when you say that)

What I'm saying is that talk like that seems to turn your relationships with people into articles of clothing, to be folded neatly and placed in the correct drawer, and makes it taboo to put shirts in the sock drawer. That's obviously not to say that two people who are compatible as friends won't be compatible as lovers (obviously not, or we'd never have friends of the gender we aren't interested in), but I'm trying to ask whether the inverse is true: why does it seem to people that two people who are compatible as lovers can't be compatible as friends?

...

Um...did that seem to people to have an arrogant "my relationship is better than yours" tone? I always get that feeling of being egotistical when I rant...sorry.

Brickwall
2007-08-31, 11:30 AM
ZRS...a metaphor is only designed to be valid to the limits of the discussion. The discussion that the "friends bin" metaphor exists for is that of the ability of a male to get in a romantic relationship with a female who he is already friends with, but no more. The metaphor does not extend to the entirety of relationships, not even to the entirety of male-female relationships which involve platonic love. It's a very limited one, and is meant to be interpreted as such.

Yay for you and Ego. Every romantic relationship should be like that. It's not quite relavent to the discussion in which the metaphor is used, though.

Well, more relavent to the discussion than the talk of sexy uniforms is to the thread, I suppose. But I didn't mean that to run off on its own, it was just an aside.

Right, uh...so theoretically Midnight Son changed the relationship with some female. And it ended up not working out. Though I suppose the ZRS/Ego thing should actualyl count as a relationship upgrade, all things considered.

I'm done, my argument no longer holds weight.

ZombieRockStar
2007-08-31, 11:36 AM
Except that it seems to be spoken of in more general terms...I may have misunderstood. But I'm also addressing a more general tone I've noticed.

...um, thanks?

mdsoze
2007-08-31, 12:09 PM
ZRS, I think the "friend zone" arises when, to use your metaphor, one person thinks the relationship is a shirt and the other person thinks it is a sock. That's where misunderstanding, broken hearts, and what have you come into play.

Now, if like you have, and like I very happily have, you find a shirt, socks, pants, unmentionables, jacket, tophat and cane in one relationship, then all is well.

Sir_Norbert
2007-08-31, 12:57 PM
I would personally like to see some proof that the "friend bin" doesn't exist. Somebody come in here and tell me one instance where the concept hasn't held true.
Both my previous girlfriend and my current one started off as friends and then developed into more. They developed into more because I was a good friend to them when they needed one, and grew into their best friend. I've observed the same process with other couples I know IRL -- not all by any means, but some of the strongest and longest-lasting relationships I've witnessed have been like this.

And I'd like to echo what ZRS said:

Am I really so odd in that, to me, Ego is not only my girlfriend but also my best friend? Is it weird that I love her as a friend (probably the closest friend I've ever had) while also being in love with her?
Not only is it not odd, I think it's very healthy and I'd find it hard to imagine being happy in a relationship with a girl who wasn't a great friend. Especially when it comes -- as it must in the end -- to thinking about spending your lives together; you need someone whose company will never bore you. I'm very happy for you and Ego that you do think of each other like this :)

Midnight Son
2007-08-31, 02:02 PM
No, ZRS, you are right. Friends do make the best lovers. In fact, that is largely the problem I see with many relationships today. It's all hot and heavy at first, but then that fades a bit and they're left with nothing to keep it together. That's just fine if you never took it past dating, but becomes a huge issue if you're dealing with a marriage(or worse, kids).

I absolutely treasure my friendship with the girl in Vegas. There was a time when I wanted more, and she would have made a great lover, but she did not want that from me. Brickwall was asking for proof that the bin does not exist. The problem is, it does. It's just not as widespread or final as some make it out to be.

Logic
2007-08-31, 05:29 PM
Every woman I have had a "more that friends" relationship was a friend first. There have been several women that I would have like to be more than friends, but they did not desire it, so I did not pursue that avenue. I do not think that a "friends only bin" exists, because the entire basis of not being in a relationship with someone under that instance cannot be boiled down so simply.

Someone will make some excuse or another for not dating you, and you may think it is the fault of being in the friends bin, but truth be told, they don't feel that way for you, despite the fact that you have so many qualities that they are looking for in a mate. Their head wants one thing, and you may fit that requrement to a T, but the heart wants what the heart wants, and it cannot easily be told to want something it didn't want before.

mdsoze
2007-08-31, 05:42 PM
Someone will make some excuse or another for not dating you, and you may think it is the fault of being in the friends bin, but truth be told, they don't feel that way for you, despite the fact that you have so many qualities that they are looking for in a mate. Their head wants one thing, and you may fit that requrement to a T, but the heart wants what the heart wants, and it cannot easily be told to want something it didn't want before.

Logic,

I label that exact situation you describe as being "the friends bin". So I'm not sure why you deny its existence, and then state that it occurs.

Logic
2007-08-31, 06:00 PM
Logic,

I label that exact situation you describe as being "the friends bin". So I'm not sure why you deny its existence, and then state that it occurs.
Then what you label the friends bin is not a friends bin. A friends bin is the theory that someone will not date you because you are exclusively friends, and cannot be anything more because you are friends. Just because a friend decides not to date you does not make you "in the friends bin."

mdsoze
2007-08-31, 06:05 PM
If that's the definition of friends bin, the theory is overly simplistic, and quickly proven false by all the examples of people who have been friends and then subsequently found love.

I don't know any advocate of friends bin who would say it's always the case, but rather that certain guys get into certain situations where they are in love with a woman, who for whatever reason despite being friends with them and being attracted to the qualities they have and saying things like, "I want a guy just like you, but not you," has a mental block against dating that guy, no matter what he does. And that situation happens frequently enough to warrant a shorthand in guy lingo.

And in my opinion, when a guy finds himself in that situation, the best thing he can do is run as fast as possible in the other direction.

Logic
2007-08-31, 06:14 PM
If that's the definition of friends bin, the theory is overly simplistic, and quickly proven false by all the examples of people who have been friends and then subsequently found love.

I don't know any advocate of friends bin who would say it's always the case, but rather that certain guys get into certain situations where they are in love with a woman, who for whatever reason despite being friends with them and being attracted to the qualities they have and saying things like, "I want a guy just like you, but not you," has a mental block against dating that guy, no matter what he does. And that situation happens frequently enough to warrant a shorthand in guy lingo.

And in my opinion, when a guy finds himself in that situation, the best thing he can do is run as fast as possible in the other direction.A woman that states that can do little more to insult a man. I agree, a man should run away, post haste.

Midnight Son
2007-08-31, 08:34 PM
A woman that states that can do little more to insult a man. I agree, a man should run away, post haste.I disagree.

If you will notice, I was the one who put that example in here. The woman in question is one of the best friends I've ever had. Just because she was unable to get past the idea of me as any more than a friend does not mean that she is a bad friend.

Syka
2007-08-31, 09:16 PM
One of the main reasons I won't date my male friends is because generally I know them too well. Both guys I've dated I've known about 1-4 months before dating, became friends, and then started dating. Throughout the relationship I got to know them better. Now, if I'd been friends for them a good deal longer, I'd probably not have dated them. But because of the relationship status I would evaluate new information and decide whether or not I was willing to deal with it. As a rule, I would because the relationship was more important.

However, with my platonic guy friends, it seems that whenever they get around to expressing interest in me I've learned stuff about them that made me think I wouldn't want to date them. For instance, one good male friend who I would otherwise have consider dating I have heard detailed renditions of a one night stand. A second, with whom there was mutual interest confirmed, does drugs (which for me is a huge no).

Buttttt...I also do think about it if a male friend expresses interest. It's not an automatic no, it just depends on wether or not I'm able to see you as more than a friend.


Also...I don't date friends of ex's. Even if I liked the guy, I'd probably avoid it. That is just a messy situation I would much rather avoid.



No, ZRS, you are not weird. Both the guys I've dated have ended up becoming my best friends (pre-dating they were just friends, on par with my other guy friends...I HAVE to know the person to some degree before I'll date them). When we broke up I was more depressed about losing my best friends than the romantic interests. Especially in this last one. The death of a friendship that I thought would last beyond the romantic part has hit me harder than I'd like to admit. Thankfully, I also had another best friend this time that helped a lot.

Cheers,
Syka

Thrawn183
2007-08-31, 09:34 PM
One of the main reasons I won't date my male friends is because generally I know them too well. Both guys I've dated I've known about 1-4 months before dating, became friends, and then started dating. Throughout the relationship I got to know them better. Now, if I'd been friends for them a good deal longer, I'd probably not have dated them. But because of the relationship status I would evaluate new information and decide whether or not I was willing to deal with it. As a rule, I would because the relationship was more important.


Now, I could be completely off base here, but this sounds exactly like someone being attracted to people that aren't the kind of people they like. (ie. you like your friends, but you aren't interested/ the people you are attracted to aren't the people you actually like or want to spend time with).

Perhaps the friend bin isn't so much people being unattracted to someone because they are their friend, so much as the reasons they are friends preclude them from being attracted to them.

Now I'd like to take a little quote from BASH.org:
#414593 +(9916)- [X]
DragonflyBlade21: A woman has a close male friend. This means that he is probably interested in her, which is why he hangs around so much. She sees him strictly as a friend. This always starts out with, you're a great guy, but I don't like you in that way. This is roughly the equivalent for the guy of going to a job interview and the company saying, You have a great resume, you have all the qualifications we are looking for, but we're not going to hire you. We will, however, use your resume as the basis for comparison for all other applicants. But, we're going to hire somebody who is far less qualified and is probably an alcoholic. And if he doesn't work out, we'll hire somebody else, but still not you. In fact, we will never hire you. But we will call you from time to time to complain about the person that we hired.
Now, I don't necessarily agree with the second sentence, but I found it really funny.

ZombieRockStar
2007-08-31, 09:48 PM
:smallsigh: In retrospect, I'm not exactly sure I said what I wanted to say, but now I'm unsure how to word what I was trying to communicate properly. This coming from a writer...

What I was trying to say is that...a relationship, romantic or otherwise, is unique to the two people involved. It's not classifiable, as with the metaphor I was using earlier. It isn't a case of mistaking a shirt for a sock because it isn't a freaking piece of clothing in the first place. Who knows what it is? And what I'm seeing from that stupid "friend bin" idea is the philosophy that all female-male friendships have the same dynamics regardless of the two people involved.

...or maybe that still doesn't really convey what I mean. But I'm realizing that this is more a thread for relationship woes and advice, not for pseudo-theoretics from a guy who has/needs none. So I'll just slip out quietly. :smallsmile:

Syka
2007-08-31, 09:52 PM
No...The majority of my good male friends I'm not attracted to, nor have I ever been. There are a few I used to crush on, but don't any more. There are a few I could potentially date, but I'm not entirely sure "it" is there, you know?

I am not one of these women who says "I want a guy like you, but not you." Neither of the guys I've dated are alike other than over lapping interests. Personality wise they are different, which is why Jerkface's jerky behavior (which was similar to how my ex acted) shocked me so much. I DO try to avoid the guys who I know would be self-destructive to me. I did not make the same mistakes with this relationship that I made with my first one.

And both Jerkface and Ex WERE people I wanted to spend time with. I did get to know them before dating them, and they are people I wish I had been able to remain friends with- even without the "relationship". What I meant was there are things you are willing to overlook in relationships because you have fallen for the person. I know I'm not describing this right and I can't remember the example I used to use.

Kind of like...If you are in an established relationship and you find out the person...I dunno, always does something a particular way. Normally, that particular way would bug you, but because you are in a relationship already, you will overlook it. However, if you found this out on the first date the costs are more than the gains.

Did that make sense?

To elaborate, none of the stuff I found out about either of the guys was particularly earthshattering (I mean, before the breakups obviously...afterward is different). Just the type of thing that may have bugged me, but I was willing to overlook because of how the relationship had been to that point.

FdL
2007-08-31, 09:57 PM
Welllllll...First, I'm not familiar with the "friend bin" phrase or its use, but I get the idea...Also I have a terrible headache and neck pain so my brain is at 50% of what it usually is, so I'll give this reply my best. Besides, I'm naturally stupid, it seems.

"Friend bin", is it as in being tagged as a friend and feeling you can never have a relationship with her because she won't see you as anything else?

I've tried several times to break that invisible but impassable energy barrier that is friend --> date. Never worked. Fault? Mine, duh. I have a kinda pragmatic/empirical approach to life, where I understand things if I see them happen. So as this has never happened to me, and being that I'm sadly restricted to being myself (that's a problem on its own, trust me), I tend to think negatively about it.

For one, it never stopped me from trying, because I probably I lack the moral height to restrain myself in the name of Friendship. Anyway, the problem is not that I'm being friends with her, it's that I don't stand a chance with any woman, so statistically it makes sense :p

Then, about confidence? Sure, it's everything. I don't have it, I know I'm never going to get a girl for the rest of my life, and that the few times when it happened it was all by accident or were clearly insane people. Semi-fact :(

Trust me, I'm working on it, but it's hard and I don't know where to start. Probably should get a mindwipe or maybe reincarnation. I'm very confused by the concept that to be happy I have to change who I am :(

So to put an example, in my case with MR it's a "not gonna happen". Yesterday I even asked her if I'm ever going to get a chance to see her IRL to chat and hang out, something like what we do in MSN. She gives me blunt "sorry but no"s. So I get it.

I honestly don't think I can change that. I don't have that power, and to be honest I was left thinking even if I want to keep talking to her on MSN. A relation that is restricted to chatting online doesn't seem like a viable option with someone who a) Lives in my town, not too far b) I've already physically met (once, pathetic) and I like . And mainly c) I don't want anything "virtual" or "abstract" in the field of relationships with women. I'm making efforts to move my relationships to real life, and it's already difficult for me...

I have a mess in my head, and I'm realizing I might be a very selfish, horrible person, because I tend to think stuff like I shouldn't waste time chatting with her if she doesn't want to have any sort of tangible, real-world relationship with me, not giving me the chance to see her, much less an opportunity to know me in a "date" context. I know what I want from her, and I'm not going to get it.

Something similar happened with, we'll call her V. We started purely in the IM dimension, but I somehow suceeded in bringing ourselves to meet IRL and actually date for a while. Result? After some time trying to get close to her (in a very respectful manner, and doing my best really, though remember that I'm stupid), and talking to her about my feelings for her (yes, stupid remember?) the whole thing broke.

Today: I'm just another contact in her long list, we're not friends, whatever vibe we had has left her completely: she sometimes pops and says hi but she usually doesn't even bother to follow a conversation, takes forever to answer at best. This is from someone who actually spent the best part of the day chatting with me and expressing genuine affection and interest. I killed it, I know it. Also, she admitted she was a bit in a "confused" state before we met.

I'm thinking of deleting her from my contacts list. Am I such a horrible person? :( There's nothing left for me in knowing her, she's not going o be my friend, she doesn't think we should date or even meet again IRL, she won't even talk to me without faking interest (that even then vanishes pretty soon). Plus it annoys me or dunno, kinda makes me jealous or gives me a weird feeling when I read the things she writes in her username, usually aimed at other people. I can't stand that, it's really stupid.

I'm really simple minded. I think I'm not capable of having a relationship in more than a way with a given single person :S I'm not able to go from friend to dating or back, or anything like that :( I just react emotionally to a person in a given way, it seems I can't help it :S


...I was going to wrap up this post summarizing it with some kind of moral or witty remark. But I think it will be a long time before I can understand anything related to women, dating, friendship or just life.

ForzaFiori
2007-08-31, 10:21 PM
I'm gonna use this place to rant for a minute.

please excuse my whiny ass.

[rant/whine]
Has anyone ever been in love? like the kind where you'd do anything for a person, no matter what it was? where you don't know what you'd do if they weren't in your life? And your all happy while your dating said person, but then you break up. This happened to me...at the start of summer. My ex and I had decided a while ago (we had been dating for several months) that we would stay good friends even if we broke up. However...anytime i see her, or talk to her, or even hear something about her...I feel sick. like i just feel terrible. I don't wanna break my promise to stay friends, but its tearing me apart. I can't even find the words to talk to her about it. I've tried to find someone else to like or date, but, while i can find plenty of attractive people, i can't see myself dating any of them. I would do anything to be able to get over her, but nothing helps. It's killing me and I can't stop it.
[/rant/whine]

on another note, anyone know why it seems so much easier to spill your guts online to people you don't know rather than to trusted friends? I've been trying to talk to my good friends about that ^, but just can't, but typing that out was easy.

Lemur
2007-08-31, 10:47 PM
I suspect the "friends bin" is primarily an illusion created through misenterpreted signals. Rejecting someone is a touchy issue, so it's common to soften the message by making it less direct. Also, there can be some difficulty finding a "reason" as to why you wouldn't want to date someone. If feelings followed logic or reasons to the letter, they wouldn't really be feelings, yet if someone asks "why not?" what are you supposed to tell them?

"Being just friends" is convenient in a sense, since it's not a complete rejection, and it provides a reason. It's problematic though, since it can be interpreted as saying that friendship and romance are mutually exclusive, which isn't necessarily true, as ZRS and some others have pointed out.

Also, since it's not a direct message, you might not take the hint. Personal feelings can get in the way, and the message might very well be understood differently by the given parties. The speaker might mean "I don't want to be in a relationship with you, but I don't want to hurt your feelings," but the receiver understands "I'd have a chance if it weren't for the fact we were already friends." To outside observers, the rejection is probably fairly apparent. But on the outside, the world looks like a peaceful mixture of blue, green and white. On the inside, it's a burning torrent of stone, battering and consuming everything within.

The only one who has a different view is the receiver, but it's not completely fair to say that this view is "wrong". It makes perfect sense to the one individual, after all. Since a certain strength of feeling is generally required to approach someone in the first place, it's understandable that one's feelings would be strong enough to influence one's perceptions in this regard. In such a state, a rejection that isn't straightforward or clear probably won't get the message across. The receiver isn't willing to accept complete rejection, but the sender also isn't willing to convey it completely.

In any case, I imagine that the process works something like this, which creates an illusion of a "friends bin" in people's minds. Keep in mind I don't actually understand what I'm talking about, this sort of stuff just sort of comes to mind. Also, let the records show that I think that "I want someone like you, but not you" is a pretty jerkface thing to intentionally tell a person. Back to lurking. Stealth mode activate!

Syka
2007-08-31, 10:50 PM
I think you need to take a break. Not not be friends, just ask for a little bit of time to get your bearings and recover. There is no shame in that. I think with both my relationships if we had made an agreement to not have contact for a month (or few), it may have worked as friends. But things were said, feelings were hurt, etc. One is maybe not irrecoverable (though, probably), and the other...Don't feel like going into.

But with both of my exes, for the a looong time whenever I would see them come online I'd feel my gut twist and squirm. With my first one, I would even shake some. It's finally abated with both.

But it took MONTHS without contact (still none) in the first case and I still have him removed from my buddy list. The other one has been easier, but it also wasn't as involved.

My advice is to seperate yourselves for 1-4 months, then try again.

Cheers,
Syka

Midnight Son
2007-09-01, 12:25 AM
mf11, I have been in that situation several times in my life(once quite recently in fact). Being so in love with someone that you can't think of your life without them is great, and it's a tragedy when it all falls apart. I would agree with Syka here. There is no way you can possibly be friends with someone when your feelings of love are still so very strong. You need to take some time away from her for your own sanity. Do your very best to avoid being around her till your feelings on the matter have calmed down a bit. I will tell you that in my case, I have no problems now with any of them except the first and the most recent. In the case of the first, what she did was so over the top unforgivable that I would walk out if I ever found myself in the same room as her. The most recent is still too recent and my feelings are still strong for her, but I could see us being friends when these feelings finally fade.

To sum up, tell her that you feel too strongly for her to be friends right now, but that you will be happy to rekindle a friendship once you can get past your heart.

Alarra
2007-09-01, 01:08 AM
I have at times dated people with whom I was very good friends prior. I have also dated people that I barely knew prior to dating and become friends with them after. The point of this not so much an anecdote is....it's important that whomever you date, be they friends previously, or a purely romantic interest, that they have the potential to be your friend. That you have interests in common and topics to talk about with one another and that you have fun together. If this occurs as a boyfriend/girlfriend, great, if it occurs as a friend, well at least you have that, and that's important.

FdL....I'm sorry, while I appreciate that you seem to know yourself and your expectations and your wants and needs.....I simply can't abide with this pessimisstic attitude of yours. Believe me when I say that there is someone and happiness just around the corner for everyone. By assuming that you are incapable of getting a date, that things are not going to happen, that you're never going to move beyond the stage which you currently are with a person.....well.....that's just self-defeating. Now, I know that I am taking an unpopular view here, that there are few people who trust that no matter what, life will work out exactly as it ought....that an eternal sense of optimism is a hard thing to present, harder to maintain, and nigh impossible to believe.

However....I am of the opinion that everyone is capable of the utmost happiness and of experiencing occurances which will imply that things are going more perfectly than what one might expect were they not focusing so intensely on creating perfection. I am not claiming that my life is perfect, or that anyone's is. I am merely inviting people to look beyond their current woes to realize that everything is 'perfect' if viewed through the right light. Call me unrealistic if you will.

And so to those of you who feel that you're incapable of a successful relationship or happiness.....try again, and try and try some more. Because someday, somehow, you will realize that everything is working out exactly like you intended and life is as perfect as you could have imagined. Try and trust, okay? It merely takes time. Trust yourself, trust others. Take a chance, but realize that life doesn't end in high school and sometimes that perfect relationship takes years to develop.

And please, realize that the most important part of establishing a relationship, of continuing one in an equitable and reciprocal way, involves learning, knowing, caring, and loving of oneself. Life, love, anything you desire is just around the corner, the trick falls in ensuring that you are prepared to recieve it.

(please forgive me my over sentimental drivel, i get this way at times. That doesn't mean that anything I am saying in this post is untrue, just not something that I would necessarily broadcast ordinarily.)

Holy_Knight
2007-09-01, 01:47 AM
One of the main reasons I won't date my male friends is because generally I know them too well. Both guys I've dated I've known about 1-4 months before dating, became friends, and then started dating. Throughout the relationship I got to know them better. Now, if I'd been friends for them a good deal longer, I'd probably not have dated them. But because of the relationship status I would evaluate new information and decide whether or not I was willing to deal with it. As a rule, I would because the relationship was more important.

However, with my platonic guy friends, it seems that whenever they get around to expressing interest in me I've learned stuff about them that made me think I wouldn't want to date them. For instance, one good male friend who I would otherwise have consider dating I have heard detailed renditions of a one night stand. A second, with whom there was mutual interest confirmed, does drugs (which for me is a huge no).
Hmm... but if you do date someone, won't you invariably get to know them better, thus leading to the point where you know them "too well"? I guess what I'm saying is, wouldn't another way of expressing this be to say:

"I can only date guys if I do it before I have a chance to realize all the bad qualities they have?"

Which is kind of depressing. Surely it's at least theoretically possible that you could get to know a guy well without your perception of him becoming horribly tarnished, right?




Also...I don't date friends of ex's. Even if I liked the guy, I'd probably avoid it. That is just a messy situation I would much rather avoid.

Agreed, and I'd add the flip side: Not dating exes of friends. Even if the friend says it's okay with them--as a general rule, that's a bad thing to do.


Welllllll...First, I'm not familiar with the "friend bin" phrase or its use, but I get the idea...

"Friend bin", is it as in being tagged as a friend and feeling you can never have a relationship with her because she won't see you as anything else?
I've always heard it as friend zone, but yeah, that's the basic idea.



I'm sadly restricted to being myself (that's a problem on its own, trust me), I tend to think negatively about it.

Then, about confidence? Sure, it's everything. I don't have it, I know I'm never going to get a girl for the rest of my life, and that the few times when it happened it was all by accident or were clearly insane people. Semi-fact :(

Trust me, I'm working on it, but it's hard and I don't know where to start. Probably should get a mindwipe or maybe reincarnation. I'm very confused by the concept that to be happy I have to change who I am :(
The thing to remember here is that there's two kinds of "changing yourself":

1) Acting phony to get others to like you; pretending to enjoy things you dislike and vice versa. This is the bad way. Not only will it NOT make you happy, it will exhaust you and commit you to a life of deceit.

2) Committing to self-improvement so you become a better person. This is the good way. You can be yourself and maintain your identity and interests, but work on developing positive character traits like courage, justice, honesty, self-control, friendliness and compassion. This will both make you happier, as well as help you be more successful in your endeavors.

You're right to worry that being happy requires changing yourself, if you think of that in terms of #1. When you think of it in terms of #2, however, you'll see that you can take charge of the one thing in life over which you have control--yourself.



I honestly don't think I can change that. I don't have that power, and to be honest I was left thinking even if I want to keep talking to her on MSN. A relation that is restricted to chatting online doesn't seem like a viable option with someone who a) Lives in my town, not too far b) I've already physically met (once, pathetic) and I like . And mainly c) I don't want anything "virtual" or "abstract" in the field of relationships with women. I'm making efforts to move my relationships to real life, and it's already difficult for me...

I have a mess in my head, and I'm realizing I might be a very selfish, horrible person, because I tend to think stuff like I shouldn't waste time chatting with her if she doesn't want to have any sort of tangible, real-world relationship with me, not giving me the chance to see her, much less an opportunity to know me in a "date" context. I know what I want from her, and I'm not going to get it.
I don't think this makes you selfish or horrible at all. If the possibility for real-life interaction with someone is there, but one person is unwilling, that's not friendship. At worst, I think this shows that you recognize that fact, regrettable though the situation may be.



...I was going to wrap up this post summarizing it with some kind of moral or witty remark. But I think it will be a long time before I can understand anything related to women, dating, friendship or just life.
You may be right about that. Still, don't forget that lots of people have similar issues and confusions, and many that don't once did. Hopefully that helps a little bit. :smallsmile:



Has anyone ever been in love? like the kind where you'd do anything for a person, no matter what it was? where you don't know what you'd do if they weren't in your life? And your all happy while your dating said person, but then you break up. This happened to me...at the start of summer. My ex and I had decided a while ago (we had been dating for several months) that we would stay good friends even if we broke up. However...anytime i see her, or talk to her, or even hear something about her...I feel sick. like i just feel terrible. I don't wanna break my promise to stay friends, but its tearing me apart. I can't even find the words to talk to her about it. I've tried to find someone else to like or date, but, while i can find plenty of attractive people, i can't see myself dating any of them. I would do anything to be able to get over her, but nothing helps. It's killing me and I can't stop it.
[/rant/whine]

Honestly, that's normal, and what would be weird would be if it weren't hard for you to talk to her now. More on this below.


I think you need to take a break. Not not be friends, just ask for a little bit of time to get your bearings and recover. There is no shame in that. I think with both my relationships if we had made an agreement to not have contact for a month (or few), it may have worked as friends. But things were said, feelings were hurt, etc. One is maybe not irrecoverable (though, probably), and the other...Don't feel like going into.

But with both of my exes, for the a looong time whenever I would see them come online I'd feel my gut twist and squirm. With my first one, I would even shake some. It's finally abated with both.

But it took MONTHS without contact (still none) in the first case and I still have him removed from my buddy list. The other one has been easier, but it also wasn't as involved.

My advice is to seperate yourselves for 1-4 months, then try again.

Cheers,
Syka


mf11, I have been in that situation several times in my life(once quite recently in fact). Being so in love with someone that you can't think of your life without them is great, and it's a tragedy when it all falls apart. I would agree with Syka here. There is no way you can possibly be friends with someone when your feelings of love are still so very strong. You need to take some time away from her for your own sanity. Do your very best to avoid being around her till your feelings on the matter have calmed down a bit. I will tell you that in my case, I have no problems now with any of them except the first and the most recent. In the case of the first, what she did was so over the top unforgivable that I would walk out if I ever found myself in the same room as her. The most recent is still too recent and my feelings are still strong for her, but I could see us being friends when these feelings finally fade.

To sum up, tell her that you feel too strongly for her to be friends right now, but that you will be happy to rekindle a friendship once you can get past your heart.

I think Syka and Midnight Son are spot on, here. Keep in mind also, there's nothing wrong with mourning the loss of your relationship with the girl in question. When we experience emotional pain like that, we need time to process and recover. If she really does care about being friends, she'll understand that.


I suspect the "friends bin" is primarily an illusion created through misenterpreted signals. Rejecting someone is a touchy issue, so it's common to soften the message by making it less direct. Also, there can be some difficulty finding a "reason" as to why you wouldn't want to date someone. If feelings followed logic or reasons to the letter, they wouldn't really be feelings, yet if someone asks "why not?" what are you supposed to tell them?

"Being just friends" is convenient in a sense, since it's not a complete rejection, and it provides a reason. It's problematic though, since it can be interpreted as saying that friendship and romance are mutually exclusive, which isn't necessarily true, as ZRS and some others have pointed out.
The thing is... it doesn't really provide a reason. More accurately, it covers up the real reason. It's something that people say when what they really mean is something like "There's no chemistry between us" or "I don't feel romantic/sexual attraction toward you." Because as you've mentioned, romance and friendship aren't mutually exclusive; in fact, I'd say that friendship is a necessary component of genuine romance. I think a lot of the idea of the friend zone comes from stereotypical "nice guys" who tend to take a while to get to know a girl before being ready/brave enough/attracted enough etc. to make the move... and since the girl in question does view them positively, but not romantically, she says "I only see you as a friend" or "our friendship is too important" because that seems nicer than actually listing what the missing components of desirability actually are.

Serpentine
2007-09-01, 04:27 AM
I know I said I'd back out of this, but, well, I lied this is an addition from the sidelines.
I'd like to put in a refinement of what I was saying.
The "friend bin" or equivalent, as used everywhere I've seen it, as opposed to being talked about, as in this discussion
Boy: I like you. As in, you know, like.
Girl: You are my friend. You have also been categorised as "a friend who I will never date, ever, no matter what, because you're my Friiiiieeeeeennnnnnd, and I never want you to be any more than that", and therefore I will never date you, ever, no matter what.
Boy: Dang.

Real life
Boy: I like you. As in, you know, like.
Girl: You are my friend. I really like you and enjoy being around you. But, I'm sorry, for one reason or another, you're just not the sort of person I'm interested in dating right now.
Boy: Dang. Is it because I'm in the Friend Bin?

It seems like you imagine the female mind is set up like this -
Not dateable: Friend.
Dateable: You, unless you're a Friend.

Whereas in fact it's probably more like this:
Friend: Funny/intelligent/interesting/clever/etc
Dateable: As above, + "something else" and/or "clicking" + attraction

To take Vorpal Tribble's example (sorry VT), there's an excellent chance he is exactly what she wants. She may even, conciously or not, be taking him as her model for what she does want. But, for some reason, or quite possibly no reason, or at least none she's aware of, she's just not attracted to him in that way right now. That's just the way it is. No categories, no bins, no status, just simply no interest. Unless she thinks he's too good for her..

I think I had something to add that would make this all make sense, but I've forgotten it. So you'll just have to make do.

edit: Holy Knight, I just realised that your last paragraph there is exactly what I'm trying to get across here. I wonder how successful I was...

Oh, ZRS, Goff and I started out as friends. Admittedly, I'd decided I wanted him reasonably early on, but we're still friends. In fact, we're friends enough that we can discuss things like marriage and breaking up without getting scared or embarrassed. I fully expect our eventual break-up to be a reasonably friendly one, probably due to us moving apart for work (I don't know that we'd quite be able to handle it if we were in the same town, and almost certainly not if we were still in the same house).
Again, I had a point to add to that. Oh well, your loss :smalltongue:

Sir_Norbert
2007-09-01, 06:16 AM
Agreed, and I'd add the flip side: Not dating exes of friends. Even if the friend says it's okay with them--as a general rule, that's a bad thing to do.
I know this is getting off on another tangent, but can I just ask about this, because, to be honest, although I've seen this and the other rule come up a few times in these threads, I've never understood them? If you're in love with someone and you feel you'd be happy if you were with them and not happy if you couldn't be with them, how does that outweigh a friend's hurt feelings that he will surely get over in time, as we all do? Surely a real friend would say (and mean) at this point, "If this is what you need for your happiness, then it's what I want too"....

But then, maybe I don't understand this because I've never been into the dating game, I've just had two relationships where we started off as friends and came to realise we were in love and then started dating. Probably my experience is very different from many of yours.

Serpentine
2007-09-01, 06:33 AM
I agree with you there, too, Norbert. On all of it, actually. Including the experience.
...
=.=

Quit stealing my thoughts. :smallannoyed:

mdsoze
2007-09-01, 07:57 AM
On both rules:

The "don't date friends of exes" rule and the "don't date exes of friends" rule have similar origins.

If you date a friend of an ex, you're going to run into your ex in the course of hanging out with your new flame. That may be an experience anywhere from harrowing to tolerable on the emotional scale, so that can be one discouragement. Depending on the closeness of the friend, the length of time between the breakup and the new relationship, you also can spawn rumors of cheating, and that you were seeing the second person while still in the first relationship.

If you date an ex of a friend, there is going to be some conflict between you and your friend, some feelings of betrayal. Now, if your friend is a friend, that person will eventually come around and support you, I agree. But, you have to decide how important this is. If you're just looking to date for fun, or dating to try to see what kind of person that you want, then creating those kinds of complications wouldn't be worth it. If you've been in love with this particular person since the day you and your friend met him/her, and the only reason you didn't make a move then was that your friend was already doing so, and you didn't flirt and waited like a gentleman/lady for your friend and this person to break up, and then you'd like to make a move, it would be a different story.

I guess both "rules" are more guidelines, trying to help you stay clear of social drama and complications in most situations. But, as has been said many a time, "All's Fair in Love and War".

ZRS: I agree that a relationship is unique to the people involved. However, you can find certain patterns in relationships, and repeated motifs that occur again and again, and start to classify relationships in groups based on commonalities. Probably the engineer in me that causes me to do it, but there are certainly patterns in human behavior, and I find the people around me to be a lot easier to understand by looking at those patterns. Kind of like how no two snowflakes are alike, but you can catagorize the crystals by the type of snow that they produce.

Serpentine: I've already said way too much about the friends bin, but I also agree with Holy Knight. The "friends bin" is a way for a guy that has been turned down by a woman who is friends with him, but not interested in him, to just understand that despite the fact that she likes him as a friend, she has no interest in him. It's not the real reason, it doesn't even attempt to explain the reason. It's just a psychological way of accepting that she's not romantically interested in you, and telling you that no matter how much more effort you put into the friendship, it's not going anywhere romantically. So manage your expectations, and if you can't do that, just move on. As I said, if everyone were open and honest about their feelings, we wouldn't need a friends bin, but since pretty much everyone doesn't tell the truth when rejecting someone, these sorts of things will persist.

MF11: I understand. I feel the exact same way about all of my exes. For me, that meant that I ended up losing the friendship with them in every case but 1. I have very strong emotions, and controlling them is hard (and was harder when I was younger). I agree with previous advisers, in that I think a break might do you good. The length of the break should be at least a month, maybe 2, longer if you feel you need it. At the very least, a break would give you time to evaluate you emotions, and see if the friend thing is going to be possible for you.

FdL: My advice to you would be to stop starting the relationships online. I don’t know your age, but regardless, can you take a class to learn a new skill in the evenings? Or see if there’s a Science-Fiction book club somewhere in town? The times I’ve been alone or in need of starting new friendships/relationships, my first move is to look around for some sort of thing I can join. First of all, you already have a topic of conversation in common with the people you meet, and second of all, the people there are also expecting to meet others.

And I know you see yourself as a bad person. Believe it or not, a lot of people I know have had days/weeks/months where they see themselves that way.

And also, part of learning what works is failing repeatedly at it. I had several relationships die horrible, bloody deaths before I found the one that is working for me. One of my friends has gone on 2 or 3 first dates a month for most of the last four years, and his longest relationship was 3 and a half months. There’s just a lot of failure and attrition in these things, and part of being successful is still believing it can happen.

Midnight Son: I’m happy for you that you were able to deal with being in that situation and have a productive friendship. I’m very impressed. For me, being in that situation causes too much emotional angst, too much pain, and ends up poisoning the friendship. Therefore, before it gets in the way, I usually just scale back the friendship to an acquaintance if I know it’s going to do nothing but hurt me. As mentioned about, I have strong emotions, and am not always the best at controlling them.

ForzaFiori
2007-09-01, 10:23 AM
the whole "dont date a friends ex" and "dont date the friend of an ex" thing is, imho, useless. I've done both (hell the girl i mentioned up there ^11 is the ex of my best friend and good friends with one of my exs.) and nothing is wrong. as long as you are completely over your ex (which i personally believe you should always be b4 you get a new gf/bf), and your friend doesn't care, then go for it.

FdL
2007-09-01, 01:04 PM
Thanks Alarra, Holy_Knight, mdsoze, and the rest who endure my confused and pain-filled posts.

I guess I just need to stop thinking about women and dating and concentrate on being better myself. It's not that I've lost all hope, it's probably related to the fact that it's not going to happen because I'm not feeling well with myself.

And yeah, starting relationships online or having them available online is a dreadful commodity that doesn't do me any good, I should move away from that because experience has shown me that it's not what I want.

Syka
2007-09-02, 02:09 AM
I don't entirely agree with you.

What is your definition of "being over"? I can say truly that I'm still not totally over my ex if it means I'd have to see him with a friend. If I were to see him with someone else, it would kill a little bit in me. If that someone else was a friend that would hurt a much bigger part. I'm functionally over him. I don't think about him much, it doesn't interfere, etc. But I still can't communicate with him and I know the above situation would be very tense and awkward.

That doesn't mean I wasn't ready to date Jerkface. In fact, I was more ready than he was I think. And right now it is the same situation. I'm functionally over him. But there are still certain things that twist the knife and I'm just learning to deal with it.

It does not mean I'm not ready to date.


Also, as someone else said, they are more guidelines. As a general rule, I follow that. Now if the situation involving only not having made a move because your friend did first, yada yada yada happened, that would be different.

Cheers,
Syka

Vampiric
2007-09-02, 07:30 AM
I agree with the 'no dating friends ex's, or a friend of an ex', because, with a friends ex, like Syka said, if it's fairly successful, you're twisting a knife in your friend, and that could lead to alienation. Likewise, dating a friend of an ex would likely lead to the ex not liking you. Bad if you wanted to stay friends.

mf11: I had exactly the same thing about 2 1/2 months ago. I was surprised a couple of days ago to realise that I'm actually over her already. When it happened, I thought it would take years, and I was almost inconsolable. I would agree that space and time apart helps. Wait until you feel 'over' her, then go for the friendship. Otherwise you only hurt yourself, but part of you will blame it on her, and you might accidentally say something you don't entirely mean.

*hugs* to anyone else with a woe. Hope it's better soon:smallsmile: - there's enough advice on this thread for almost any situation, I think...:smallamused:

ocato
2007-09-02, 04:23 PM
snrrrk!

So, tonight I might have a pseudo-blind date with internet dating site girl. Except by blind-date I mean watch some dvds maybe. But I dunno if I should watch them upstairs and have room mates going 'who is this how'd you meet, lol dating site?' etc etc or being like 'let's go watch this downstairs in my bedroom sitting on my bed" *creepy hannibal lecter mouth thing*

This is gonna be a long and painful experience. Maybe I'll make up an excuse to back out and get drunk instead.

Serpentine
2007-09-02, 10:50 PM
This is good, don't back out! A little odd maybe, but meh. If you'd be more comfortable watching them upstairs, maybe approach your housemates before-hand, explain that you'd probably prefer to be left alone as much as possible, and get all the piss-taking out of the way early.

ocato
2007-09-02, 11:23 PM
Appreciate the advice, but she changed her mind about coming over. This is a person who is a master of subtlety where I do not know if she likes me or suffers me. She alternates between interested in talking to me and terribly blah about it. Humans should be forced to speak their minds at all times!

I love YOOHOO!

zeratul
2007-09-02, 11:38 PM
Oh I just wanted to pop in and say if you're looking for updates, there are no updates, other than that one person I was talking to thought it was strange that I did not express my emotions more around this girl. To be fair we've only been hanging out for about three months. But is it in fact odd, seeing as I'm good friends with her now, and feel the way I do about her?

Alebeard_Thunderax
2007-09-03, 12:23 AM
And both Jerkface and Ex WERE people I wanted to spend time with. I did get to know them before dating them, and they are people I wish I had been able to remain friends with- even without the "relationship".

Hey, you still could. Stranger things have happened.

Quincunx
2007-09-03, 02:54 AM
. . .She alternates between interested in talking to me and terribly blah about it. Humans should be forced to speak their minds at all times!

What if. . .*flashy lighting, dramatic camera angle*. . .she is?

I think she is.

Consider that she is.

Consider that she oscillates between putting up with you, liking you, wanting to hang out with you, and wanting to hang out with you and your roommates.

However, I would say that if you have the right to bring your "friends" (read: roommates) when you hang out, she has the right to bring hers, and then it's no date at all. It's safer that way, especially when going to meet Mr. Internet Stalker from a Dating Site OMG, and not unreasonable to ask--if you meet at your place OR if your "friends" (again, read: roommates) insist on coming along. Change venue, I'd say.

Vonriel
2007-09-03, 11:22 AM
Hey, you still could. Stranger things have happened.

Not really. Check out her responses if you wanna know all the details, but suffice it to say, in the weeks/months following the breakup, both proved to be incapable of and not worth the friendship.

Alebeard_Thunderax
2007-09-03, 11:30 AM
Believe me, I know the details.

Syka
2007-09-03, 11:59 AM
It's ok guys. I've made my choice, and I am content with it. No need to argue.

Yes, stranger things have happened. But there is a difference between wishing things had turned out one way and accepting how they did. As I've said, I've accepted it and moved on. Such is life.

Cheers,
Syka

Rykaj
2007-09-03, 05:36 PM
This is just too weird... I've never ever vented on the internet before (I'm very scared of the big bad internet) but I just need to get this off my chest.

Who would be just about the most unexpected person to show up at your regular mondaynight D&D session? Exactly: your old highschool crush! Major crush and everything, you've all had it and it's been described in this thread about a dozen times. As the fate should have been when I was the insecure teenager, nothing ever happened, even though it should have and things even ended rather painfully for both sides, hooray. We lost touch after highschool. Maybe we sent eachother two or three emails in the past four years.

I can count the times I have been speechless in my life on one hand, but today I have to add another finger to that. I knew there'd be a guest player today and I knew she was female so I walked in to introduce myself. Two steps past the door and all I could say was 'holy ****', literally. Laughing ensued of course, and while I didn't blush I just stood there for a full minute not knowing anything at all to say. I left the days of being an insecure teenager far behind me and I am probably the complete opposite of shy, but I just stood there. Then I said: Wow what a surprise you're here and made an excuse to go to the toilet and regain my bearings. That all worked and in a minute we started playing all happily.

She was really cool and picked it up very quickly. But it was so weird to see her there. She would've never been interested in stuff like this back in highschool. The story was that she apparently got to know our DM and somehow they mentioned they both knew me and he invited her over. Mostly as a joke. Well after it was over I walked her home (she lived pretty close apparently), and suddenly everything was like old times, except I wasn't such an idiotic teenager anymore. We talked for about an hour then she really had to go. I'll probably go and meet her more often after this, even though chances are she won't be joining our gaming group.

To conclude, I won't try anything with her. Even though she is still beautiful and we get along exceptionally well, I'm lucky enough to have a girlfriend whom I get along with even better and am even more attracted to. I mostly wanted to share with you this completely absurd evening. I feel happy yet confused I think :smallconfused:

BlackStaticWolf
2007-09-03, 07:40 PM
I know this is getting off on another tangent, but can I just ask about this, because, to be honest, although I've seen this and the other rule come up a few times in these threads, I've never understood them? If you're in love with someone and you feel you'd be happy if you were with them and not happy if you couldn't be with them, how does that outweigh a friend's hurt feelings that he will surely get over in time, as we all do? Surely a real friend would say (and mean) at this point, "If this is what you need for your happiness, then it's what I want too"....

Rather than a hard fast rule to be obeyed no matter what, you should look at it as more of a guideline (like the Pirate's Code). Recognizing that people are frequently dishonest with themselves (ie, your friend), are you willing to gamble your friendship on the chance for a relationship?

It's all about what you value most. The rule is essentially a pessimistic and completely rational approach. It assumes a couple things. One is the worst case scenario about both relationships: pursuing the ex will cost you your friend, and your relationship with the ex won't last. The second is that there are plenty of fish in the sea.

Reality isn't that cut and dry... but restraining oneself is always the "safe" thing to do.

Syka
2007-09-04, 04:17 PM
Rykaj, I know how weird stuff like that can be. This seems to have been the weekend for those happenings, as a friend is visiting from the army and saw her huge crush from high school for the first time since graduating as well. :)



As for me...It's incredible how much can change in a matter of only a couple days. I'm pretty sure that with in the next couple, lets say weeks, I'll be looking at another relationship. How?


I went to a wedding this past Saturday. A bunch of my friends were there, as well as their roommate whom I knew but didn't really know. Most of the time when my friends and I hung out it was somewhere else, though he did come along when his girlfriend was working. At the same time last year my ex and I broke up, him and his girlfriend broke up (literally, same week I think). Last time I saw him was November when our whole group went to the movies.

Well, as most of our friends were involved in the wedding party, and the only one who wasn't had left early, we spent most of the reception talking and hanging out. Then dancing. Later that night, hanging out at the brides parent's house (we're all friends with her whole family), we talked a lot.

The next night was our friends 21st birthday. Oz (the guy in question), our friend, and I went to dinner and then a local bar/music venue place. Further talking ensued whilst the friend was bought drinks and generally swooped upon by other patrons (don't worry, he was safe. ;) ). We ended up getting asked to leave because when three of our other friends showed up we got carded and I, and two of the ones who had just come, were underage. *grumble* The six of us went to the beach, then left around 12.30 because Birthday Boy had to sleep for work the next day (I don't think he had a hangover...He's been drinking for about 5 years, no joke).

Oz and I stayed up at their apartment to watch a movie since I was going home the next day and he didn't have work. I didn't get home until 6.30am because we were talking for so long and ended up completely ignoring the time.

Sooo...we've been talking on the phone and stuff and generally are in that tentative beginning stages, I think (yes, relationship stuff was discussed as well that night). He's talking about coming to visit me so hopefully that will be soon as I'm not sure when I'll be going home next.

Sorry for the rambly nature. I'm kinda scared but getting more comfortable with the whole idea. I trust my friends to let me know if he was someone I shouldn't date, especially since one has been living with him for well over a year now. From our discussions, which were pretty extensive and covered just about every topic, he seems like the type of guy I'd want to be with. Let's just see how the next few weeks unfold. :smallsmile:

Cheers,
Syka

Logic
2007-09-04, 04:21 PM
Good for you Syka! Though I am going to say the obvious, be careful. You should probably spend a little more time alone for the moment, but do what makes you happy.

Vampiric
2007-09-04, 05:02 PM
@^ Yarr. Good luck Syka!:smallsmile:

FdL
2007-09-04, 05:14 PM
Go Foxy!!! ^^

Syka
2007-09-04, 05:15 PM
Yes, yes. This is in fact me eating my words. :smalltongue:

I did talk to my mom about it, worrying I was going into something new too fast after something old. She made a good point that I didn't have this "ready" for right after my break up, and I was also perfectly happy to remain single. Plus, for all I know, it won't go past this first stage. Nothing has actually been declared yet (though I'm sure my friends back home realize it), but I'm still wary and yet hopeful.

I think I'll be cautious until at least I find someone who treats me right. He knows that I'm wary, though, and understands because he's been in the same position.

Thanks guys, though. :)

Cheers,
Syka

Hefty Lefty
2007-09-04, 09:19 PM
Hey, I'm back. If you remember last time, way back on Page 13 of the original thread, I had a pretty...dirty post. It required plenty of scrubbing and almost lost us this great thread. Well, don't worry - I promise I've learned my lesson - this is entirely clean and fun for the whole family! Well, maybe not fun but at least it won't need scrubbing.

Anyway, here's the situation. If you remember last time (I doubt you do, if you do you're a little creepy), I had trouble getting over this one girl. Well, I have (hurrah), and now am into this new girl who that first girl, a mutual friend of us both, is trying to hook me up with. Basically, I like her and I know she likes me. The problem is, I don't know exactly how to ask her out. I've had a girlfriend before, but I forget how I asked her to actually be my girlifriend, and it was probably wrong. I know it's not "Hey wasup, wanna be my girlfriend?", but I just don't know how to actually say it.

People in relationships: how did your guy ask you/you ask your girl? Any tips for me? For refrence, we're both 16 years old and high school juniors. We haven't done much of anything relationship-wise, only hugged (I know, that's so sweet my teeth are rotting just by writing it...). Anyway, any pointers? I really like this girl :smallredface: and don't want to screw things up by being stupid.

FdL
2007-09-04, 09:33 PM
The problem is, I don't know exactly how to ask her out. I've had a girlfriend before, but I forget how I asked her to actually be my girlifriend, and it was probably wrong. I know it's not "Hey wasup, wanna be my girlfriend?", but I just don't know how to actually say it.


You know, something similar happens to me.

SDF
2007-09-04, 09:39 PM
You know, something similar happens to me.

Since all my other friends dropped out of college last semester(slacker SOBs) I've had to make new ones. I'm actually doing it too though which is a bloody miracle of me not being shy anymore. I just strike up conversations with people in my classes, talking about something mundane then BSing from there. In fact tomorrow I plan on asking a girl in my astrobiology class out to the Bright Eyes concert. First time I'm taking the initiative since HS. You should totally wish me luck BTW... :P

Brickwall
2007-09-04, 09:47 PM
Anyway, here's the situation. If you remember last time (I doubt you do, if you do you're a little creepy), I had trouble getting over this one girl. Well, I have (hurrah), and now am into this new girl who that first girl, a mutual friend of us both, is trying to hook me up with. Basically, I like her and I know she likes me. The problem is, I don't know exactly how to ask her out. I've had a girlfriend before, but I forget how I asked her to actually be my girlifriend, and it was probably wrong. I know it's not "Hey wasup, wanna be my girlfriend?", but I just don't know how to actually say it.

People in relationships: how did your guy ask you/you ask your girl? Any tips for me? For refrence, we're both 16 years old and high school juniors. We haven't done much of anything relationship-wise, only hugged (I know, that's so sweet my teeth are rotting just by writing it...). Anyway, any pointers? I really like this girl :smallredface: and don't want to screw things up by being stupid.

You were doing things that required scrubbing bubbles at only 15? :smalleek:

Ask the female hooking you up for advice. My only date was done with a mutual friend hookup, and I regret not asking that (I ended up doing fine, though). She will probably have some good ideas. Just force yourself to be comfortable. Like rehearsing a line, not starting a conversation. Be an actor, not a player.

FdL
2007-09-04, 09:52 PM
Hey, good luck, SDF, have a good time!

Brickwall, yeah, that may actually work. It's all I can't say about this subject because I don't know anything about it at this particular point of my life. I don't know anything.

ForzaFiori
2007-09-04, 09:57 PM
You were doing things that required scrubbing bubbles at only 15? :smalleek:

Ask the female hooking you up for advice. My only date was done with a mutual friend hookup, and I regret not asking that (I ended up doing fine, though). She will probably have some good ideas. Just force yourself to be comfortable. Like rehearsing a line, not starting a conversation. Be an actor, not a player.

I'm 15, and i require scrubbing bubbles all the time. What y'all get here is EXTREMELY toned down.

@SDF: good luck!

@Hefty: actually "sup, wanna go out?" was how i got my last gf, lol.

mdsoze
2007-09-04, 09:58 PM
People in relationships: how did your guy ask you/you ask your girl? Any tips for me? For refrence, we're both 16 years old and high school juniors. We haven't done much of anything relationship-wise, only hugged (I know, that's so sweet my teeth are rotting just by writing it...). Anyway, any pointers? I really like this girl :smallredface: and don't want to screw things up by being stupid.

I didn't, really. I tend to think the labels are silly, and create pressure/expectation. I think it was about about 10 months of going on dates almost every weekend that I finally said something like, "So, I guess we're dating."

I've never understood titles. Putting a tag on the relationship doesn't serve any purpose, near as I can tell.

Syka
2007-09-04, 10:59 PM
It's a tough thing to ask, and I really have no advice.

SDF, good luck!!

Cheers,
Syka

Logic
2007-09-05, 12:24 AM
Good luck SDF. Glad to hear you have nearly conquered your shyness. I have been beaten down in defeat eveytime I challenge mine. Making new friends is a long and difficult process, unless the other person is determined to be my friend.

Serpentine
2007-09-05, 01:31 AM
People in relationships: how did your guy ask you/you ask your girl?
Hmmm, let me see now...
Experience of being asked out #1: About... 13-14, at a swimming pool, a gentleman with bad English (doesn't go well with my having trouble understanding people with even the slightest accent of any kind) said something about how I was pretty and he wanted my phone number and to get to know me. Much fear, awkwardness and misunderstanding later, he left the pool phonenumberless.
Exp #2: "Would you go out with me?" from a friendly acquaintance in the school library. "I think you're very brave, but no", then couldn't give my dad a good reason why I said no, so asked the guy whether he wanted to go to a movie. One bad date, awkwardness, much silence and a few weeks later, "I like you, but not that much" (by me, not him). :smallsigh:
Exp #3: Truth or Dare reveals his crush. Flirtation, following around, developing infatuation followed by "Hey, would you go out with him if he asked you to?" "I don't know, until he asks me." "*whisperwhispergoondoitgoonpokepokewhisperwhisper*" "Will you go out with me?" "Okay." Normally I don't like the whole "Will you yaddayaddayadda", but this time it wasn't totally out of the blue, so it wasn't so bad.
Exp #4: Much following around, flirting, touching, using as furniture etc. on my part culminating in a tickle-battle that turned into make-outs followed by "So does this mean you're mine, now?" and indignation that I'd even ask such a question.

Does that answer your question? :smalltongue:

Syka: Well, at the very least it sounds like you've made a new friend ^_^

SDF: Good luck! Tell us how it goes.

Alarra
2007-09-05, 03:25 AM
Congrats Syka. And it is better that you weren't actively searching for someone to date, and to have something come along. It makes it less likely that it's a rebound. But yeah, take things slow and reflect on it often enough to make sure that you're liking him for him and not just so you have 'someone'. But if you were content with the idea of being single, then that's probably less likely. I know I'm the type of person that has always felt like I 'needed' a guy, and so, when I get out of a relationship, I usually find myself striving to get a new one as soon as possible, which makes you much more susceptible to falling for a completely unsuitable guy on the rebound.

Hefty Lefty....
I've always been kind of a fan of the simple, 'Will you go out with me?' especially back in high school where there was more often a definitive 'going out', rather than the 'dating or seeing someone' you get to later in college and beyond. In those older relationships, it's less common to be 'official' about it. I mean, you'll eventually find yourself in a relationship, but there's less of the expectation of actually 'asking someone to be your girlfriend' ala the 'going steady' stage of times past. In high school, however, at least when I was there.....that was a pretty important qualifier, and people would frequently ask someone out before even knowing them or having gone on a date or anything at all. Also....if you are rather shy about it....notes are actually not a bad way to go. Twice in high school, I was asked out via a note. The first one said: 'Damn her, you're looking fine... Who're you going out with?' from the guy in front of me in geography. And the second, dropped on my table at lunch, saying 'I know I don't know you well, and I'm sorry, I'm shy...but would you like to go out with me?' Anyway, I dated both of them, and kept the notes, and remember them years later, so the method must have been effective.

SDF,
Congrats and good luck! I know how hard it can be to take the initiative and make new friends. I've never been good at it, even now...although I feel like I have definitely come out of my shell a bit in the past year. I'm glad the not being shy is working out for you....and really....it works for everyone, it's just hard as hell. And best of luck with the asking the girl to the concert. I hope she says yes and you have a wonderful time! :smallbiggrin:

Syka
2007-09-05, 08:23 AM
Heh, well if we're doing story time...

The two that worked:

1- We met at a convention the night before it was over and exchanged AIM Screennames. After two weeks and a couple conversations he said, "How would you feel about dating someone in New Jersey?" Me, being the oblivious one I am, said "Are you asking me out?" He said yes, I said I needed to think about it. I ended up giving an affirmative. :)

2- He just asked if I wanted to go to coffee. After that, it was a movie. Then hanging out, a concert, a wedding...It just kind of moved into it.


And if you want to count this weekend, it literally just kind of happened. We'd been talking at the wedding, which escalated to dancing, which turned into him taking me home (he opened the door, insert aww). Later, when I went to the after reception party, it was more talking and a tickle fight (long story behind that, as I was attacked by three people, 2 guys and a girl, at first, but he is the one I'm currently at war with). Next day, he offered to buy my food when we went out with some friends (I wasn't hungry, unfortunately), then held my hand at the bar, cuddled at the beach, and spent 5 hours at his apartment just...talking and cuddling and generally not wanting to go home. It's still nothing official or anything, but there is a good chance that it could become such. So it wasn't one "asking out" thing so much as a lot of little things adding up to let each other know we liked each other, not really much time for "dates".

But for high school, the direct approach like my first boyfriend took is probably a good one. Heck, even I don't like the ambuguity of these last two, though I'm more comfortable with how Oz and I are, than I was in the other one, namely because he's already let me know he doesn't have a problem with distance already and I'm pretty sure we're both just feeling it out right now to make sure this weekend wasn't just a one time event.



The ones which failed:
22 year old asking when I was 13 if I was single. With my mom right next to me.

29 year old following me around work, asking questions about myself, and finally if I had a boyfriend when I was 19.

Guy I've known for 5 years taking me outside of a party, which I'd gone to with a mutual friend whom I was seeing, and telling me he'd been waiting for my ex and I to break up and if I was ever back in town he'd like to take me out (I was moving in four days). That was a fun one, alcohol included. --'

Cheers,
Syka

FdL
2007-09-05, 01:34 PM
Hmmm, let me see now...
Experience of being asked out #1: About... 13-14, at a swimming pool, a gentleman with bad English (doesn't go well with my having trouble understanding people with even the slightest accent of any kind) said something about how I was pretty and he wanted my phone number and to get to know me. Much fear, awkwardness and misunderstanding later, he left the pool phonenumberless.

Interesting. How old were you? Is this your usual reaction to this particular method of advance? Would you react differently now to the same situation? Can it actually work, if so what does it depend on? I mean, if you liked the guy maybe you'd give him a chance. Or maybe it's just the awkwardness of the method that dooms it to fail.

You know, I'm interested because basically I'm that guy (well, not THAT guy, LOL, but I've thought of using this method when I see a girl I like a lot, in the street or in a situation where there's not much room for interaction).



Exp #4: Much following around, flirting, touching, using as furniture etc. on my part culminating in a tickle-battle that

I love that expression ^^

Oh, of my inverse experience, I have an anecdote. There was this girl, a gooorgeous girl I kept seeing everyday on the bus (cue soundtrack to this post, The Replacements' "Kiss Me On The Bus"). Being me, I had a terrible crush on her, but was terribly shy at that point and didn't know anything about her or how to talk to her. So one day I made up my mind and stayed on the bus until she got off and I followed her.

Yes, I know, this can be scary, kinda stalkerish, but I had no Plan A. So I followed her and started talking to her, amicably, politely, telling her how I usually didn't do this kind of thing, but told her how beautiful I thought she was. All with a trembly voice that came from the heart

She had a weird look on her face at first but then she gave the most wonderful smile I've seen in my life, it shone like the sun ^^ I don't remember much more, because not long after this she arrived at some house and rang the doorbell. So I asked her name. It was Ana. I think she was a med student. I was very nervous, then I had to leave and didn't ask her phone or anything, or probably, being more realistic I was rejected. But I felt amazingly good to be able to do that ^^

Then I think I saw her a couple more times on the bus, but was really awkward, even though I could have talked to her...Eventually it came the point in which I stopped seeing her, she probably had changed her schedule or maybe I took the bus at a slightly later time. Never seen her again, except in my dreams.

mdsoze
2007-09-05, 02:33 PM
If we're speaking from experiences, then I have to say that with one exception, every time in high school that I asked a girl out, or asked a girl to be my girlfriend, the answer came back negative.

On the other hand, asking women to do specific social activities with me, some of which turned out to be similar to dating, had a much higher success rate, and achieved near similar goals.

To wit, I was so scarred by my utter lack of success when the words date and girlfriend was involved that I didn't use either word until year 3 of my current relationship.

Hannes
2007-09-05, 02:41 PM
I am weird. After all the ****ing moaning and bitching and whining about not being picked as a boyfriend and such blah blah blah, I found a girl whom I got to know by accident and have been talking to for almost a year now. Totally small talk about "I hate this weather" and such. Now I found out that we have very much in common. CREEPILY too much. And, you know what I found out after meeting her today? That I don't need her to love me back, I enjoy hanging around with her and just talking. That was like. Nice.
(Okay, this is probably the wrong thread for this but... Bleh)

Last_resort_33
2007-09-05, 03:17 PM
This is what is commonly known as a friendship... Someone who you respect and want to spend time with who may or may not be attractive, but who you are not particularly interested in jumping into bed with. Cross gender friendships are vastly undervalued by people in general.

Mind you, some of the best relationships start of as friendships...

therefore by posting both of the two comments above I have actually added no insight into this discussion whatsoever.

Aramil Liadon
2007-09-05, 03:26 PM
So you have a friend. And she is a girl. So?

Edit: Dang, Last Resort did it for me, with more words and more advice.

Logic
2007-09-05, 03:38 PM
Hannes, don't force anything. At this point, you seem to be trying to fall for this girl just because you have alot in common (I have been guilty of the same.) She is your friend, and she likes you as a friend. That does not mean you should try to move to the next level with her simply becasue you do not have a girlfriend right now, which is what it sounds like to me.

Nightgaunt
2007-09-05, 03:53 PM
People in relationships: how did your guy ask you/you ask your girl? Any tips for me? For refrence, we're both 16 years old and high school juniors. We haven't done much of anything relationship-wise, only hugged (I know, that's so sweet my teeth are rotting just by writing it...). Anyway, any pointers? I really like this girl :smallredface: and don't want to screw things up by being stupid.

The best way to screw things up is to be afraid of screwing things up...
---:smallsmile: ---

No advice I could give you now about a girlfriend would be of much use to you. I think the differences between how a 26 year old starts the ritual and a 16 year old starts the ritual could be significant. And if you start it the same way I do... you probably wouldn't ask the question here.:smallwink:

This is rather passé but do you share any common interests with the girl? I recall my first real 'girlfriend' when I was 14 I got in to a relationship with by going to a Bad Religion concert with her. After the show on the ride home she slept with her head in my lap while I ran my hands through her hair (I lost a few teeth there too) absent-minded like. Once that was done I kissed her good night (she was quivering and it was raining, I still smile now when I think about it) and that was it. Next day we were arm-in-arm, hand-in-hand.

I have to admit, i feel like that advice was at least mildly, if not completly, useless.

SDF
2007-09-05, 04:37 PM
SDF,
Congrats and good luck! I know how hard it can be to take the initiative and make new friends. I've never been good at it, even now...although I feel like I have definitely come out of my shell a bit in the past year. I'm glad the not being shy is working out for you....and really....it works for everyone, it's just hard as hell. And best of luck with the asking the girl to the concert. I hope she says yes and you have a wonderful time! :smallbiggrin:

I've never had too much trouble making friends, but I've always felt really awkward asking girls out... bad high school experiences mostly. :P I've met a whole bunch of new people these past two weeks though, more than I did probably my first two years of Uni combined. This, "talking to people" seems to work, as evidenced by the phone number, concert tickets, and date I have on the 14th. >_>

Syka
2007-09-05, 05:39 PM
Ouu...SDF has a daaaaate! :smallbiggrin: Yes, I'm being completely juvenile. I'll take this moment to say you need to get your butt on AIM at some point so we can compare weekends. :)

Cheers,
Syka...who also added nothing to the discussion...

Hefty Lefty
2007-09-05, 05:58 PM
The best way to screw things up is to be afraid of screwing things up...
---:smallsmile: ---

[snip cutesy anecdote]

I have to admit, i feel like that advice was at least mildly, if not completly, useless.

First part: Oh sh*t, lol.

Second Part: Yea, pretty much, but it was a nice story.

No seriously, thanks for all the help guys. I asked the middle(wo)man today what she thought on the subject (someone here suggested I do that), and she told me a whole shpeal and what she likes and yadda yadda. The girl and I are going out Friday and then I'll *bum bum bum* pop the question (not that question).

Brickwall
2007-09-05, 06:49 PM
I asked the middle(wo)man today what she thought on the subject (someone here suggested I do that)

Again, I would like to shove this in the face of everyone who says I'm not helpful around here. That's two in only a couple pages. :smallbiggrin:

Sir_Norbert
2007-09-05, 07:24 PM
I'm a bit late in jumping on the bandwagon (kinda been forgetting to check the forum recently since I've discovered Sailor Moon :P ) but you have my best wishes for your happiness, Syka.

On the topic of sharing stories....

my first girlfriend, I just said "I think I'm in love with you", and -- I've looked at the logs of our chat afterwards -- it was literally FIFTEEN minutes of very slow, very halting conversation before I asked her to state plainly whether she was trying to tell me that she felt the same about me. She was.

My second (and current) girlfriend, she'd been in love with me for years already (all through the time I was together with my first) and it was the first time we'd met in person. For me, it was still less than a year since the break-up and I'd had two rejections since then, so I was desperately hoping for someone I could be happy with and, since I had someone who loved me, wishing I could somehow make myself return her feelings. So we did a lot of kissing, and it took until a week after I got back, but something in me opened up and I told her I loved her and we've been together ever since (EDIT: which, I should add, is four months now. See post further down the page).

FdL
2007-09-05, 07:50 PM
Also....if you are rather shy about it....notes are actually not a bad way to go. Twice in high school, I was asked out via a note. The first one said: 'Damn her, you're looking fine... Who're you going out with?' from the guy in front of me in geography. And the second, dropped on my table at lunch, saying 'I know I don't know you well, and I'm sorry, I'm shy...but would you like to go out with me?' Anyway, I dated both of them, and kept the notes, and remember them years later, so the method must have been effective.

I tried email once. She was a girl from the office, we would chat and joke when we stumbled on each other in the hallways. But I didn't seem to find a proper moment where I could talk to her and ask her out. So I sent her an email, which she promptly answered with a polite rejection.
In retrospect it was pretty silly to write her that email...But well, I did the best I could in that circumstance.

Sometimes I think my ways of approaching girls I like are so bad that I'm unconsciously sabotaging myself. I'm the Wile E. Coyote of dating :smallconfused: :smalltongue:


If we're speaking from experiences, then I have to say that with one exception, every time in high school that I asked a girl out, or asked a girl to be my girlfriend, the answer came back negative.

On the other hand, asking women to do specific social activities with me, some of which turned out to be similar to dating, had a much higher success rate, and achieved near similar goals.


That's very good advice really. Girls can get kinda scared when asked out (by me). The surprise and tension of the moment usually doesn't help much the "yes" side. :S

So when it's someone you know, or with whom you share interests and activities that's fine. Also at a younger age I think it's easier in that respect (high school, university I guess).

The problem is when it's someone you just met, or someone you don't know much about, and I definitely think it gets harder when you're older.

Ranis
2007-09-05, 08:32 PM
Okay, I have a general question for the ladies in the playground. If this question's been asked before, I apologize, and if someone could direct me to where this question's be answered before, that would be wonderful.

What kinds of signals do you send when you are in casual conversation with a guy you're interested in?

I just met this girl in one of my classes, and talked to her for about 30 minutes after the class ended; essentially, I'm trying to figure out if she was sending the signals or not. Slightly confused.

Syka
2007-09-05, 09:43 PM
That is a very, very complicated question. I know because I'm a naturally friendly person, some people could see what I do as flirting. Honestly, I'm not sure since I have changed over the years.

Basically, if I'm willing to allow physical contact and try and stay near the person (in a group, standing or sitting next to them, etc) it's probably a good indication. Smiling a lot. Um...heh. The only problem here is a lot of signals I could think of, I also do just when I'm happy...*shrug*

Honestly, the best way is to either a. ask, or b. do something like ask for a hug, etc.

Cheers,
Syka...whose advice could be completely off by her addled brain.

Hannes
2007-09-05, 10:07 PM
Hannes, don't force anything. At this point, you seem to be trying to fall for this girl just because you have alot in common (I have been guilty of the same.) She is your friend, and she likes you as a friend. That does not mean you should try to move to the next level with her simply because you do not have a girlfriend right now, which is what it sounds like to me.

Heh. I'm not trying to fall for her, I already did. But I thought deeply about the relationship, and I couldn't even think TELLING her that before summer vacation. I'll wait. And wait. And hang out with her. And she is more to me than a friend.

Brickwall
2007-09-05, 10:28 PM
Okay, I have a general question for the ladies in the playground. If this question's been asked before, I apologize, and if someone could direct me to where this question's be answered before, that would be wonderful.

What kinds of signals do you send when you are in casual conversation with a guy you're interested in?

I just met this girl in one of my classes, and talked to her for about 30 minutes after the class ended; essentially, I'm trying to figure out if she was sending the signals or not. Slightly confused.

I don't need to be a girl to help you with this one.

It varies greatly from girl to girl. Some girls show their interest by knocking a guy out and dragging him home. Others have almost no ability to effectively show their interest. And everything in between.

Generally: how long have you known her? People of all kinds lower the bar dividing "what you can do with friends" and "what you can do with crushes" for people they've known longer. Both genders do this. So if you've known her since you were both in daipers, she could ride on your shoulders with your head between her legs and she might think nothing of it. If she's letting you do it after only a couple years, she might want to try out other positions (after a few dates. No moving that fast. It could scare her).

Extreme examples used to illustrate point. Probably not directly applicable.

Serpentine
2007-09-05, 10:35 PM
What kinds of signals do you send when you are in casual conversation with a guy you're interested in?
Open question: Would this be a good time to refer to my Lessons of Flirtation?

Brickwall
2007-09-05, 10:36 PM
Open question: Would this be a good time to refer to my Lessons of Flirtation?

Please do, I must have missed them.

FdL
2007-09-05, 10:41 PM
Open question: Would this be a good time to refer to my Lessons of Flirtation?

Yes ma'am. I remember the one about human furniture. Do I pass the test?

Brickwall
2007-09-05, 10:46 PM
Oooohhhhhh...that one. Yeah, I saw that one. Again, see my post as to why it's only so helpful.

Serpentine
2007-09-05, 10:47 PM
Interesting. How old were you? Is this your usual reaction to this particular method of advance? Would you react differently now to the same situation? Can it actually work, if so what does it depend on? I mean, if you liked the guy maybe you'd give him a chance. Or maybe it's just the awkwardness of the method that dooms it to fail.
I'm not sure, but it's possible I was in the vicinity of 13. I'm not sure how old he was, but I believe it was significantly older. The language difference made it especially awkward, especially as, like I said, I have a great deal of trouble understanding people with even the slightest accent - to the point where I had to repeatedly ask my cousin from England to repeat himself. My reaction was one of abject terror and embarrassment. Once I'd figured out what he wanted, I gave him my number, but he got it wrong, and I corrected him once but he still got it wrong and finally I was overcome by embarrassment and fear that I just finally went "Yeah, that's it". He noticed my whisperings with my friends, came over again later to find out whether I'd given him the right number, I don't like lying and told him "no", after which he scolded me and left. I don't know what my usual reaction would be, it's only happened the once (:smallfrown:), and I suppose it could work.

Bah. Find my lessons yourself, lazy bum :smalltongue: No, seriously, I'm too busy frantically searching for pictures of naked Roman ladies Venus.

FdL
2007-09-05, 11:11 PM
I'm not sure, but it's possible I was in the vicinity of 13. I'm not sure how old he was, but I believe it was significantly older.
(...)
My reaction was one of abject terror and embarrassment.
(...)
I don't know what my usual reaction would be, it's only happened the once (:smallfrown:), and I suppose it could work.


I think you were too young. That makes it a weirder anecdote. Anyway, I believe this is method is widely used among adults, but I have yet to see it work for me.

It's one of those situations where you have to go on a hunch, judge purely by the physical appearance. Or maybe it has to do with some degree of open-mindedness...

An interesting question popped up in my head. What would I do in the inverse situation, if I was the "askee"? I guess I'd be flattered, though it might feel a little weird. I'd definitely appreciate it and well, I'd pretty much give it a shot. I don't get hit on nearly enough and I find it intriguing to learn what kind of person could that come from. I also value the courage on her part (not for asking ME :smalltongue:, but just for doing it)

ocato
2007-09-05, 11:53 PM
I have a great deal of trouble understanding people with even the slightest accent...

I find this highly ironic, given that you are from Australia and therefore have an insane and wholly indecipherable accent.

Serpentine
2007-09-05, 11:57 PM
Well, I do have trouble understanding people around me... In fact, let's just say I have trouble understanding people full stop, it's just made worse when they usually speak a different language.

Vampiric
2007-09-06, 06:48 AM
Well, I could help with 'translation'. I have this wierd ability to be able to do almost any accent in the english language, including foreign accents... :smallamused:

Also, I can't really contribute to the 'how to ask a girl out', because my only two girlfriends that I have had were kissing me before there was an opportunity to think about it.:smalltongue: I'm not complaining:smallbiggrin:. After that it was kind of assumed that we were 'together'...

Holy_Knight
2007-09-07, 01:41 AM
First of all, congrats and good luck Syka and SDF! Way to go! :smallsmile:


Again, I would like to shove this in the face of everyone who says I'm not helpful around here. That's two in only a couple pages. :smallbiggrin:
Yeah, you're helpful, but not as helpful as I'm going to be!

Okay, Hefty Lefty. are you listening? Nothing works better for asking a girl out than a good old fashioned serenade! So when you're ready to "pop the question", as you say, just burst into song, like so:

bum BUM bum bum BUM bum BUM bum bum BUM

Hey! Hey! You! You!
I don't have a girlfriend!
No way! No way!
I really need a new one!
Hey! Hey! You! You!
You could be my girlfriend!

Dunna nunna nunna nunna nunna nunna nunna nunna

Hey! Hey! You! You!
I know that you like me!
No way! No way!
You know it's not a secret!
Hey! Hey! You! You!
I want you for my girlfriend!

Dunna nunna nunna nunna nunna nunna nunna nunna

It's like, now or never
And I know there's no one better
I think we should get together now

So that's just what I'm talkin' bout!

Hey! Hey! You! You!
I don't have a girlfriend!
No way! No way!
I really need a new one!
Hey! Hey! You! You!
You could be my girlfriend!

Dunna nunna nunna nunna nunna nunna nunna nunna

D.C Al Capo, etc.

So there you go, Hefty. You might need some friends on drums and guitar for the "bum BUM bum bum BUM bum BUM bum bum BUM"s and "Dunna nunna nunna nunna nunna nunna nunna nunna"s, but either way, just break out into this totally original song that I completely made up all by myself just now with no inspiration from anywhere else, and she'll be yours. You can thank me later. :smallwink:



My second (and current) girlfriend, she'd been in love with me for years already (all through the time I was together with my first) and it was the first time we'd met in person. For me, it was still less than a year since the break-up and I'd had two rejections since then, so I was desperately hoping for someone I could be happy with and, since I had someone who loved me, wishing I could somehow make myself return her feelings. So we did a lot of kissing, and it took until a week after I got back, but something in me opened up and I told her I loved her and we've been together ever since.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, Norbert, but it kind of sounds like you're trying to force yourself to be in love with this girl, rather than it coming naturally. If so, then please be careful. You could really hurt her pretty badly like that.


I'm not sure, but it's possible I was in the vicinity of 13. I'm not sure how old he was, but I believe it was significantly older.
Yeah, that not only makes it awkward, but maybe kind of creepy, too. Did you look older than you were?



Bah. Find my lessons yourself, lazy bum :smalltongue: No, seriously, I'm too busy frantically searching for pictures of naked Roman ladies Venus.
Leaving your poor students to fend for themselves! Well, someone's getting a bad student-teacher evaluation... :smalltongue:



Also, I can't really contribute to the 'how to ask a girl out', because my only two girlfriends that I have had were kissing me before there was an opportunity to think about it.:smalltongue: I'm not complaining:smallbiggrin:. After that it was kind of assumed that we were 'together'...
On the other hand, this does help answer Ranis' question. if a girl's totally kissing you, then that's a pretty good sign that she like likes you. :smalltongue:

Seriously, though, you asked a good question. Things would be easier if girls just realized that we're never going to know that your subtle hints are actual flirting and not just being friendly--so you should just throw yourselves at us if you want to get the point across. There, it had to be said. :smallbiggrin:





Yes, for God's sake, I'm kidding about the song.

Syka
2007-09-07, 07:00 AM
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but even kissing can be deceptive. I've known girls who will kiss guys they don't like because they are drunk and I've known girls who kiss guys that they might like but have no intention of dating. :smallsigh: People are...weird.

That being said, I'm one of those ones who are totally and utterly oblivious. As in, while talking to Oz, I mentioned I was glad our friends were ok with everything (I was worried about the maturity level of a couple of them). Evidently, one was pretty upset because of it (our other friend said he'd get over it) and had evidently been on about me AND my sister for sometime. oO Tip: If we don't seem to be acknowledging your "hints" we probably don't even see the hints. I try to be fairly straightforward, and that's pretty much the only way I've ever realized a guy liked me is through in straightforward manners.

So yes, sometimes it is worth going out on a limb. :smallsmile:

Cheers,
Syka...who needs far more sleep than she got last night...

Ranis
2007-09-07, 07:45 AM
Okay, another question for you guys. Once again, if this has been discussed before, please point me to where that was. Thanks.

As it stands, I am far too good at becoming good friends with women I meet, whom I may start getting interested in, but by that time, we're too good of friends for me to even suggest anything more. So what do you suggest as ways to draw the distinction line between being friends and giving something more a try, without losing a potential good friend in the process?

Brickwall
2007-09-07, 10:35 AM
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but even kissing can be deceptive. I've known girls who will kiss guys they don't like because they are drunk and I've known girls who kiss guys that they might like but have no intention of dating. :smallsigh: People are...weird.

That being said, I'm one of those ones who are totally and utterly oblivious. As in, while talking to Oz, I mentioned I was glad our friends were ok with everything (I was worried about the maturity level of a couple of them). Evidently, one was pretty upset because of it (our other friend said he'd get over it) and had evidently been on about me AND my sister for sometime. oO Tip: If we don't seem to be acknowledging your "hints" we probably don't even see the hints. I try to be fairly straightforward, and that's pretty much the only way I've ever realized a guy liked me is through in straightforward manners.

So yes, sometimes it is worth going out on a limb. :smallsmile:

Cheers,
Syka...who needs far more sleep than she got last night...

*lets that last sentence pass over home plate*

Right, well...wait, you AND your sister? :smalleek: Pick one, Oz. Pick one.

The reason guys give "hints" is because there's a very popular (and scientifically founded) perception that girls pick up on this stuff easier than guys do. In general, it's the truth. Funny thing about hints (and this is to both genders) is that you're trying to get under their RADAR. So how can you expect them to pick up on them? They're usually least obvious towards the person you're giving them to.

Ranis: Uhh...I'll just ask your question again. It's a good one.

Jibar
2007-09-07, 11:00 AM
*Insert awesome song here*

So, I'm the only person that would work on, huh?



Sometimes I think my ways of approaching girls I like are so bad that I'm unconsciously sabotaging myself. I'm the Wile E. Coyote of dating :smallconfused: :smalltongue:

Nope, sorry, I've got that.
You're talking to the guy who admitted to being in love with a girl while not stopping talking about Loony Tunes.
I haven't actually watched Loony Tunes since.

mdsoze
2007-09-07, 12:20 PM
Okay, another question for you guys. Once again, if this has been discussed before, please point me to where that was. Thanks.

As it stands, I am far too good at becoming good friends with women I meet, whom I may start getting interested in, but by that time, we're too good of friends for me to even suggest anything more. So what do you suggest as ways to draw the distinction line between being friends and giving something more a try, without losing a potential good friend in the process?

Generally speaking, I just started flirting about week 3 or week 4 of being friends/hanging out, and saw if she flirted back. No, that doesn't mean anything, but you are sort of planting the seeds of ideas, and maybe if you're flirting, she'll start to see you that way. Of course, your flirting may get met by stonefaced silence and awkwardness, and that's when you stop and take it in another direction. Also, physical contact like trading backrubs. It is completely innocent on its own, but you can tell if there's a connection or not.

At least, that way if you develop a romantic interest, when you want to act on it, it won't be out of left field, cause there will already be flirting present in the friendship. And if you don't, you can keep flirting for fun (like gnawing on wood to keep your teeth sharp) or back off, depending on the response you get.

Syka
2007-09-07, 12:24 PM
No, not Oz. One of his roommates I've been friends with for a while. Heh. A smart man will not tell his significant other when he likes her sister. ;)

Cheers,
Syka

Sir_Norbert
2007-09-07, 01:08 PM
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, Norbert, but it kind of sounds like you're trying to force yourself to be in love with this girl, rather than it coming naturally. If so, then please be careful. You could really hurt her pretty badly like that.
Let me make one thing clear, which I should have done in my previous post. This was all four months ago; if I had any doubts at the beginning about whether I was "really" in love, I don't now, and how our relationship started isn't important any more.

You're right that it could have gone badly, of course, and I knew that at the time as well; but Valeran was so crazy about me that she really wanted me to give things a try even if I wasn't sure, and she promised me that it wouldn't jeopardise our friendship, and although you can't always trust it when a girl says that, in this case I knew her well enough to believe her.


Tip: If we don't seem to be acknowledging your "hints" we probably don't even see the hints.
Too damn right :) After we got together, Valeran asked me when I'd first known she liked me, and I said that one of our mutual friends had told me. She asked me if I hadn't noticed any of the hints she'd been trying to drop for the last two years. I hadn't.

zeratul
2007-09-07, 01:43 PM
Something interesting happened today. So I hadn't seen her in person for a few weeks. Today I saw her, and we talked for a minute, I literally had the wind knocked out of me, but in a posative way. All of a sudden I was calmer, and my thoughts cleared, it was like theraputic almost.

magicwalker
2007-09-07, 02:06 PM
How do you know if you love someone?

That it's not just some pattern you became accustomed to.. that it's not desires of the flesh.. that it's REAL?

Is it the ache after a day away? A week? A month? A year? Two?

Is it the tears that come to your eyes every time you think of her? Every time you hear that one song.. those lyrics that seem so true.. that they must be singing about us?

Is it the willingness to sacrifice your mold? Your comfort zone? Your happiness... so she could be happy?

I don't understand that how after almost two years, several months of never seeing eachother at a time, and barely any kind of contact when we do.. that she still brings these emotions up in me. She has moved on, but I am still back on that Thursday in January... the great falling out.

It's infuriating.

I'm in my first serious relationship since her.. and I'm even more confused. This girl doesn't make me feel the way my ex- did, she doesn't make me feel loved.. and even if she did I don't know if I could reciprocate it. It just makes my relationship seem cheap.. and pointless.. and fleeting. I want there to be something there.. but I don't even know what that something is.

/rant off

Any replies to my post, please PM me. Thanks.

FdL
2007-09-07, 08:37 PM
So, I'm the only person that would work on, huh?

LOL! Pretty much, my dear muffin-thing :p

[QUOTE]
Nope, sorry, I've got that.
You're talking to the guy who admitted to being in love with a girl while not stopping talking about Loony Tunes.
I haven't actually watched Loony Tunes since.

Well, I said it metaphorically...but yeah, you win.

That was strange but depending on the girl and/or situation doesn't necessarily imply awkwardness. In any case, sense of humor is something not everyone has, and definitely something I look for in a girl.

If I'm with a girl and I say something funny and it's like *whistling wind, tumbleweeds rolling by* it's an indication that it isn't going to work :S


Oh, I got used as furniture today ^^ YAY!
It's an exception to Serpentine's rule because she's not into me, nor I'm into her, but boy, do we flirt majorly :p LOL
Still it's always a good thing (being used as furniture) ;)

(Hmmm...I might have a picture of it too, actually. And a pic of the girl at the office who I have a crush on. Might post them when I actually get them)

Don Beegles
2007-09-07, 09:28 PM
If I'm with a girl and I say something funny and it's like *whistling wind, tumbleweeds rolling by* it's an indication that it isn't going to work :S



-Quick, tell a stupid joke and see if she laughs.-
"Why didn't the skeleton go to the party?"
"Why?"
"Because he had noBody to go with."
*Laughs*
-That's no fair. That joke's hilarious.-

Brickwall
2007-09-07, 10:06 PM
-Quick, tell a stupid joke and see if she laughs.-
"Why didn't the skeleton go to the party?"
"Why?"
"Because he had noBody to go with."
*Laughs*
-That's no fair. That joke's hilarious.-

Of course, that test didn't work very well after all, we all know. But I'm sure that flirting with an evil conniving malpractice lawyer who wants to manipulate you into doing something isn't a very generic situation anyway.

It's actually probably a good test. Try it.

FdL
2007-09-08, 12:43 AM
LOL @ Beegles :p

Actually it's a great test. If a girl laughs at anything you say, no matter how bad your jokes are, then you're in ;)

I actually have a particular girl in mind. But...meh...I'm not going to be all picky but I kinda don't like her even a bit. I did at some point in my past, that's the weirdest thing. Meh, if it's a sign that I've grown up at least a little, then it's good.

Syka
2007-09-08, 09:37 AM
Actually, that laughing at everything you say including the stupid jokes is a pretty good sign. Usually it means she trying to subtly say, "Hey, I like you, even when your being stupid." I guess it could sometimes be laughing at you, but that's another story. :smallwink:



For the first time I realized something interesting. I'm not worried, I'm just happy. I'm not sitting wondering when the other shoe will drop, or if he really likes me, or wondering if I have a reason to be paranoid, like I have done in every other relationship I've had. I'm just happy and enjoying this. I truly feel no need to define it. All I need is for some ground rules to be established, which I'm pretty sure don't need to be but I'm going to anyway. I don't feel the need to wait around for him to call or get online or anything- I'm comfortable living my own life and fitting him into it, and he seems to feel the same way.

But for once in my life it's happiness that is not tinged with cynicism. I'm not going to confess my undying love or anything, as I'm still to grounded to do that, but the last week has been both terrifying and incredible. Terrifying in that I realize I'm not hiding myself from him, and incredible in that I'm actually not worrying about it. And anyone who knows me will tell you, I worry a lot.

This could pan out to be nothing more than friends (though I doubt it), and I think I'll still be happy because I've learned some interesting stuff about myself.

Sorry, you can ignore me. :smallsmile:

Cheers,
Syka

Brickwall
2007-09-08, 09:40 AM
happiness that is not tinged with cynicism

I've seen those words before, but when you put them together, they just don't make any sense. :smallconfused:

Jibar
2007-09-08, 09:50 AM
Okay, this half an actual problem, half a complaint about the man brain, and why I have to have one.
Having successfully settled into my new school, and accidentally making new friends along the way (sorry Bricky), I had the pleasure of meeting the woman henceforth called Nelly. A lovely girl, by all accounts.
While being told how she would flirt with everybody new, I was warned off by the ex to stay back for my own good. Further pressing the issue through a mutual friend, apparantly Nelly is the man trap. Having cheated on said ex with two gentlemen, she is now dating one of them and still hooking up with the other.
Considering the sources, I'm disinclined to believe this at all.
The complaint part comes now. All the warnings to keep away unfortunately just make me more attracted to her. Why does this have to be so? Why do we have to touch it after someone says don't? It's infuriating, to say the least, and complicates all kinds of things.
The problem part is here. I know she's flirting with me, and apparantly I've been flirting back (most of Serpy's guide is stuff I normally do anyway). However, having only known her for a week at most, I'd feel rude asking about her man trap status. So now I'm trying to work out when would be best to ask her, and if it proves to be false, would it be right of me to ask her out.

Oh, Jibar, what sticky, gooey, chocolately messes you find yourself in.

Brickwall
2007-09-08, 10:09 AM
When I went to my new high school, I had the women of not-so-outstanding chastity hitting on me quite quickly. I was able to discern their intentions quite easily by myself. If one thing, I can usually tell the wrong sort from the right sort (and if I have any doubt, guess which category they get?). A meal's worth of conversation is usually enough. I'm not sure how I do it, but I was only ever wrong once. Sunuvakobold almost broke my arm. :smallannoyed:

Okay, right, this does go somewhere other than me bragging. There are a couple techniques to this:
1. Be private about yourself. People who will respect you as a friend will respect you now, and at least give up on any one topic after a couple tries. And if they ask about your sex life directly...bad sign.
2. Which puts you in a quandry. Notice I said "sex life" not "love life". Ask about her relationship status. "So, you seeing anyone?" can be a friendly question if you treat it as one. Just don't act too flirty when she responds...you're dangling over a precipice, so don't reach for a hand if you don't know where it's gonna pull you. But since you've heard that she's seeing someone, you can verify her answer from outside sources just as casually. If she lies...DANGER. DANGER.
3. As for how to make yourself stop falling for her, I recommend sitting there imagining her as an ugly man. Add voice. That'll put it on hold for a bit, if you're good.

sktarq
2007-09-08, 12:25 PM
Sorry, you can ignore me. :smallsmile:


But life is better when we don't.

Scorpina
2007-09-08, 12:56 PM
Actually it's a great test. If a girl laughs at anything you say, no matter how bad your jokes are, then you're in ;)

That or she has a serious medical problem, or y'know, just a plain old bad sense of humour.

sktarq
2007-09-08, 01:08 PM
That or she has a serious medical problem....

In fact you be very worried as she may try to eat your brain...so whatever you do don't eat hers. Besides who knows what she was doing in the interior vale of Papua.