No classes, no levels, no limits. MOD.

[Deesix]

This is a long going project, about two and a half years. I've been crafting a skill-based freeform magic system with no classes, and no levels. It is wonderful, but I need to see if other people like it. I don't want to give it all away, because I want to publish one day. Interested people speak!

[Nu]

That's more than a LITTLE vague.

[TheLogman]

So, how would this work? You'd have your traditional skills, like climb, swim, search, spot, ect. These, since the entire system is skill-based, should be worth twice as much, maybe even worth 3 times as much as they do in the d20 D&D system. All players should get the same points or so, possibly using the same 6-stat system as the traditional system, with stats giving more skill points in skills and stuff related to the stat. Then, there's weapon ranks, each rank applying to different weapons, effectively better than Bab, but more costly. Magic ranks would work on a 1 or 2 spell per 2 ranks or so basis? And then, more spells would be available after a few lower level spells. Stuff like Sneak Attack, Evasion, and other Class-related features, could either be bought with feats, or with 5 or so points.

Of course, this is just my take on how I think it might work. I really have no clue what yours is like, or what is best, since you haven't posted anything.

No levels Eh? Then how do player progress? Or do they just keep killing the same level of monsters all the time? Or maybe, at set amounts of experience, they get skill ranks, or even they earn skill ranks directly from combat?

Your post is pretty vauge though, I mean, what are we supposed to do? Comment on why this is a good idea, or what?

[Deesix]

So, how would this work? You'd have your traditional skills, like climb, swim, search, spot, ect. These, since the entire system is skill-based, should be worth twice as much, maybe even worth 3 times as much as they do in the d20 D&D system. All players should get the same points or so, possibly using the same 6-stat system as the traditional system, with stats giving more skill points in skills and stuff related to the stat. Then, there's weapon ranks, each rank applying to different weapons, effectively better than Bab, but more costly. Magic ranks would work on a 1 or 2 spell per 2 ranks or so basis? And then, more spells would be available after a few lower level spells. Stuff like Sneak Attack, Evasion, and other Class-related features, could either be bought with feats, or with 5 or so points.

Of course, this is just my take on how I think it might work. I really have no clue what yours is like, or what is best, since you haven't posted anything.

No levels Eh? Then how do player progress? Or do they just keep killing the same level of monsters all the time? Or maybe, at set amounts of experience, they get skill ranks, or even they earn skill ranks directly from combat?

Your post is pretty vauge though, I mean, what are we supposed to do? Comment on why this is a good idea, or what?

It's only very loosely based on D&D. We don't even use d20 anymore (3d6), we have 8 stats, and there are a lot more skills. It's a brand new system. No feats, and 'experience' and leveling is gained through the use of skills.

You did exactly what you were supposed to do: Ask questions. That's all I wanted. I really don't know where to start with an explination of a full system in a post, as I'm kind of a scatterbrain.

Stats are devided into four catogies: Build (Including strength and fortitude, which is physical power and toughness), Grace (Agility and dexterity, a split between the full body and hands only things that require coordination), Mind (Intelligence and Wisdom. Wisdom is still perception, intelligence is the smarts.), and Charm (Presence and Appearance. Presence being the kind of feeling you give off, and appearance being the looks.)

Everything is a skill now, for one. Magic, combat, all the other stuff. The specific skill groups are: Weapon, Magic, Defense, Athletic, Perception, Interaction, Proffessional, Craft, Knowledge. There's quite a few skills in those groups, so I'll just go over the outline.

Weapon: Weapons skills, like Brawling, Swords, Blades, Maces, Throw, Crossbows. When you want to hit somebody with something other than magic, essentially. Mostly covered by the stats Dexterity and Strength for accuracy, and strength for damage (depending on the weapon type).

Magic: All the magic skills, which all can make spells out of specific mods with a skill trial. Spells are pretty modular, and thus won't be explained here. Covered by highest of Int, Wis, or Pre.

Defense: Resisting spells and dodging stuff. Also, Negate, a counterspell skill. All sorts of stats used here. Dodge is agility, Negate is Int.

Athletic: Climbing, swimming and the like. Based either of the Build stats.

Perception: Judging emotions, power levels. Being aware of things. Mostly wisdom, some Int.

Interaction: Different skills to do with interacting with people, like deceiving, seducing, and all that fun stuff. Charm stats.

Craft: Making things. Int.

Knowldge: Knowing things. Int.

Profession: Things that don't fit elsewhere. Lots of different stats for the skills in here.

My attention span is waning...

[Deesix]

Okay, okay, sorry. Here we go, I hope.

Feats, leveling, and all that stuff is replaced with Ability Points, then side-effect of leveling a skill. You get 1 ability point every time you level a skill, and you level skills by doing enough of a relatively challenging task. This makes for slow progression in some skills, and fast in others, but there are ways around that (that'll be for later).

Ability points can be used to buy all sorts of things, like Vitality, Energy (Like HP and Mana, but Vitality is not actual injury. Wound points stay fairly the same and are real injury. This will become more coherent when I'm not running on so little sleep and so much work). More stuff costs more points, in progression and such. Far to sleepy. Will say more later.

[mikeejimbo]

So, it's GURPS?

I kid, I kid. Sounds interesting, though.

[Dronin]

sounds like a tweaked white wolf system.
or combined D&D and WW.
I like the WW system better but love the D&D world.
Still sounds good.

[Rob Knotts]

So, it's GURPS?

I kid, I kid. Sounds interesting, though.No, this is pretty much GURPS Lite (http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/lite/)(minus any advantages).

[InaVegt]

No, this is pretty much GURPS Lite (http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/lite/)(minus any advantages).

Except HT has been replaced by some sort of charisma stat.

[Deesix]

Really never played GURPS, so any similarity is coincidental.

It has a fairly solid trait system for character creation, as well as a resource of traits for making monsters.

Main features, besides the lack of levels and classes include freeform magic and the ability to make your own combat techniques. A lot of little things need to be worked out still, and the rules need to be compiled into a readable form, but it's almost complete. I've been running games with it for about 8 months now, and it works wonderfully.

[mikeejimbo]

Well, GURPS doesn't have a freeform magic system. Except in GURPS Mage, and the Mage magic system is pretty cool.

[jindra34]

Well, GURPS doesn't have a freeform magic system. Except in GURPS Mage, and the Mage magic system is pretty cool.

In charecters they point out that Magic (4e) is where most of the magic rules are. and it is very free form.

[Ceres]

I say. This seems to have similarities with the system I am currently developing, although it is based on FUDGE

We will keep an eye on your progress mr. Deesix... (bookmarking)

[mikeejimbo]

In charecters they point out that Magic (4e) is where most of the magic rules are. and it is very free form.

Really? Admittedly, I have but browsed through a friend's copy of 4th edition Magic, but it wasn't nearly as free-form as the magic from Mage. I guess I consider the fact that in Mage there aren't "spells" per se, as more free-form.

[jindra34]

Really? Admittedly, I have but browsed through a friend's copy of 4th edition Magic, but it wasn't nearly as free-form as the magic from Mage. I guess I consider the fact that in Mage there aren't "spells" per se, as more free-form.
Thats true about the base system but they have six(?) others in the book.

[mikeejimbo]

Ah, that would explain it. I didn't look at any of those then, and with GURPS Thaumatology coming up, it adds even more options.

So, it is GURPS. :smalltongue:

[jindra34]

Ah, that would explain it. I didn't look at any of those then, and with GURPS Thaumatology coming up, it adds even more options.

So, it is GURPS. :smalltongue:

Yes it is. Specially when combined with Powers.

[Kiren]

This system reminds me of Oblivion and runescape, leveling skills makes the character more advanced

[Deesix]

My progress is a lot more than I have down on here, I just have no idea what I can write. I'm kind of paranoid, as I've had systems nabbed before. Plus, I'm really the ultimate ADD.

Freeform magic is a fairly solid thing we got, though. We're currently trying to work out a guideline for out-of-combat magic, utility kind of stuff. Combat is almost completely down. It's a skill trial, with different things you want to do adding different modifiers. You can make a spell, for example, that throws a person a few meters back and deals them damage. Different magics get a negative to the Trial Target of certain effects, making them easier to cast. Fire, for example, is good with Damage and Area effects, while a little less solid with healing effects, and really sucks when combined with Water or Ice magic. Oh, yeah! You can make multiple spell parts to make a more powerful spell managable. Like making a spell for the damage, and the spell for the pushing back effects, allowing you to add more of each of those. It's really fun; I have players who have spent hours of their own time having fun crafting spells.

[Kiren]

i like the concept for this,

[Deesix]

i like the concept for this,

Good to hear. Do you have any specific questions? If I have something to go on, I can write more.

[Machete]

I'd like to take a moment to make a very rational and calm comment.

GEIV ITS TO MEEE!

That is about how much my mind wants this system. How is carrying weight and capacity covered?

[Deesix]

I'd like to take a moment to make a very rational and calm comment.

GEIV ITS TO MEEE!

That is about how much my mind wants this system. How is carrying weight and capacity covered?

Generally, unless it is important, we don't cover that kind of thing. No one pays attention to carrying capacity. But we do have a ruling, based on a base kilogram amount with a bonus based on the strength stat. Oh!

That's another thing. Most stats are single-digit numbers. Instead of making 10 the 0-mark, 0 is. Negative numbers are allowed. Simply add the stat as a modifier. So, a strength of 3 is +3. Stats can also be reliably raised over time at a much more frequent amount. 5 is pretty much the highest a starting character will have, while 0 is probably the lowest (you can get lower, but that's traits).

[Lord Tataraus]

Interesting system. When are you planning to publish? And in what format (i.e. books or pdfs or both)? Will there be OGL content? What genre is the system built for or is it highly adaptable for both fantasy and cyberpunk type games? Do you have various playable races? Is creating magic items a craft or magic skill? I assume creating magic items only costs money since experience does not exist as such. And finally, is their any restriction on having too many options (such as equal level combat, magic, sneaky, etc. skills) or is that just balanced by good old "I do everything, but half as good as you"?

Sorry, I lied, one more question: do some skills cost a different amount of points to increase, or are all skills the same cost (i.e. Blade cost 2 points to get level 1 while diplomacy costs 1 point)?

[Deesix]

Interesting system. When are you planning to publish? And in what format (i.e. books or pdfs or both)? Will there be OGL content? What genre is the system built for or is it highly adaptable for both fantasy and cyberpunk type games? Do you have various playable races? Is creating magic items a craft or magic skill? I assume creating magic items only costs money since experience does not exist as such. And finally, is their any restriction on having too many options (such as equal level combat, magic, sneaky, etc. skills) or is that just balanced by good old "I do everything, but half as good as you"?

Sorry, I lied, one more question: do some skills cost a different amount of points to increase, or are all skills the same cost (i.e. Blade cost 2 points to get level 1 while diplomacy costs 1 point)?

We actually haven't gotten any solid release plans yet. We're experimenting with a few plans, both book, online, and PDF. We were considering releasing the base system for free and charging for setting and such, or the reverse. Not sure yet.

Also, the system is made for every Genre with only a few slight tweaks. So far, one's we've experimented with: Steampunk, High Fantasy, Modern Horror, and underwater.

For the fantasy we have various playable races. Races are made with racial triats and limitations on stats. (Essentially, a stat group must be primary, secondary, or tertiary. Two will always be tertiary. A race might require a specific stat group to be primary or secondary, and have another be unable to be.)

Creating magic items has a money cost and another very insidious cost, making magic items very rare. You must "invest" energy, essentially reducing your Energy maximum by a certain amount based on the spell in the item until you choose to make the item non-magical. When you make it non-magical, you can regain the energy normally.

It's essentially the I do Everything Half as good, but the game is really balanced for a character who is 50/50 between martial skill and magical skill. You CAN play other splits, and do well enough, but 50/50 is considered the most powerful build.

Skills cost pretty much the same to buy at gamestart and level. But certain abilities and traits cost different when applied to different groups (The magic group is far more expensive than the knowledge group, for example.) I also renamed a lot of skills to avoid any chance of Wizard's thinking I stole their game and morphed it.

[Deesix]

Oh, yeah. Steampunk has a pretty viable Airship combat thing going. It's quite nifty and fun, though I haven't tested that one completely yet.

We also brought back the noble status effect. Pacify (no attacking), Fury (no defending), Seal (no spells), Bound (no movement), Paralyze (short-term no actions at all), Frenzy (extra actions every turn, no defense), Cocoon (impedes all skills, but heals afterwards), Poison (different deadliness and speed), and a couple other things. Most done with magic.

That reminds me! We have a decent alchemy system that ends up rocking the world. It's like weak magic that doesn't cost Energy.

Edit: More content!

[Deesix]

Please, more questions! Comments! Insults! Compliments! Candy!

[Rigel Cyrosea]

That sounds pretty cool. Is there any way I could get the complete rules?

[Deesix]

That sounds pretty cool. Is there any way I could get the complete rules?

Giving out the complete rules scares me. I don't want the game stolen. I am, however, looking for playtesters.

[Deesix]

Nobody has questions? Okay. I'll check back once in a while, but I'm done posting unless someone wants specific information.

[Archaic]

This doens't sound like D&D anymore but a whole new game system. Hard to comment if it's balanced or not anymore.

I personally like the freeform magic system developed for use with the rest of D&D that is presented in the Black Company campaign setting. It's worth a look.

[Deesix]

I'm actually not looking for balance issues, I'm looking for interest. It is a completely different game from D&D, barely even close to it.

I might check out that freeform magic system for ideas, though. Thanks.

[Deesix]

Alright kids, I'm done.

[Kiren]

if its any good try publishing it as a third party source material

[Deesix]

if its any good try publishing it as a third party source material

I'd like to think it's pretty good. Creative players love it-spell making adds a whole new dimension to gameplay. But, we still need to do a lot more before it is publishable.

[Hawriel]

Im just wondering how you determen how your skills increase. if its like AC or oblivion, wich tracks how many times you use the skill. Alot of under the hood math by a computer. Would character points work for your system? WEG star wars and Shadowrun use character points. They are pritty good freeform systems for development. Character points (or what ever you would call them) can have a nice way of keeping track of the power level of the character and party as a whole. You could have the cost of raising skills determend by how often a player uses a skill through out a game. or if a skill is used only once the cost could be determined on how in influenced the encounter or game over all. This is actualy a house rule that a gaming group I was in used for star wars. Character points can also be used to backtrack a character if you think somthing is wrong. just keep a running tally. for example...Bob the low rent gun bunny has 200 karma but the player had 6 8 ranked skills and ect ect. it may take awile and some math but you could points to check the math as it where on a questionable character.

well any way just a thought

[Kurald Galain]

Giving out the complete rules scares me. I don't want the game stolen. I am, however, looking for playtesters.

Well to be frank, you are hardly the first person attempting to do this, and there are several dozen "light" or "freeform" RPG systems that are at least superficially similar to yours that are freely available for download on the web. So you don't have to worry about such things.

Anyway. In my opinion, splitting stats into four groups of two is not necessary, I'd just call them eight stats. "Wisdom" is a very awkward name for perception skills (frankly, they are only there in D&D because there wouldn't be anything else there and they had to stick with The Six; many 2nd ed house rules had a seventh score for perception). Perception should really be split into "physical" perception and "social" perception, aka empathy, because the two are widely different. I tend to group "sixth sense" or arcane detection under the latter.

Rather than using charisma and apperance, which are substantially overlapping, I'd go with charisma (which makes people like you and pretty much includes appearance) and subterfuge (which makes people do what you want them to). Less overlap, more potential for sneaky characters.

Intelligence is very broad and could deserve a split between knowledge (book smarts, memory, learning skills) and wits (thinking on your feet, reactivity, math skills). Otherwise there are way too many skills under int.

Gives you ten stats. I tend to go with twelve myself (adding two of willpower, status , faith and/or combat skill depending on the setting) but this is very workable.

[Deesix]

I'm of the belief that 12 is far too many stats to keep track of. Also, they're grouped for Advancement and Starting Value reasons. It works out fairly well, quite smooth.

Wisdom is not the name for any skills, it's the name for a stat and it covers quite a few thing. Intelligence plays almost as much of a roll in perception skills (most can be used with either of the Mind stats). Most I'd do with Wisdom is rename it.

Charisma is no longer a stat. It's the Charm group, with Presence and Appearance, as I mentioned. Presence being the ability to make people do what you want, portraying specific emotions. It works with lies and the like.

Intelligence is fairly good as being a useful stat for plenty of skills, but not much use in combat. I don't see it needing to be split.

Thanks for the critique, I guess. I'm not sure I wrote all my stuff well enough to be understood, though.

[Deesix]

Im just wondering how you determen how your skills increase. if its like AC or oblivion, wich tracks how many times you use the skill. Alot of under the hood math by a computer. Would character points work for your system? WEG star wars and Shadowrun use character points. They are pritty good freeform systems for development. Character points (or what ever you would call them) can have a nice way of keeping track of the power level of the character and party as a whole. You could have the cost of raising skills determend by how often a player uses a skill through out a game. or if a skill is used only once the cost could be determined on how in influenced the encounter or game over all. This is actualy a house rule that a gaming group I was in used for star wars. Character points can also be used to backtrack a character if you think somthing is wrong. just keep a running tally. for example...Bob the low rent gun bunny has 200 karma but the player had 6 8 ranked skills and ect ect. it may take awile and some math but you could points to check the math as it where on a questionable character.

well any way just a thought
Character growth (ability points) are completely tied hand in hand with skill leveling. For every level a skill is above 1, you get an ability point. The math behind leveling skills isn't used in higher level characters, as they just have X ability points, and thus that many skill levelings. However, it goes like this:

You need 5 'dots' in order to level a skill. In order to get a dot, you must succeed at a trial of 14+your current level in the skill. So, a level 2 skill needs a trial of 16 in order to gain a dot. When you get 5 dots, it resets to 0 dots and the skill is one level higher. Easy to keep track of, I find.

[Hawriel]

Well that does work out nicly. does the same apply to rasing ability scorse?

[Deesix]

Well that does work out nicly. does the same apply to rasing ability scorse?
Ability scores are increased with ability points, based on the current stat. You get a discount if you leveled a skill that uses that ability score, but there's a set minimum of 1 the first time you increase it, 2 the second, 3 the third, and so on.

[Morrsleib]

i could be interested i playtesting.

[Deesix]

Wonderful. Any other takers?

[psychoticbarber]

It's only very loosely based on D&D. We don't even use d20 anymore (3d6)

Wait wait wait. You use the Hero system?

What I've read sounds similar to the Hero system.

[Arameus]

Wait, isn't this just Final Fantasy IIj?

[Deesix]

Wait wait wait. You use the Hero system?

What I've read sounds similar to the Hero system.

I...don't think so. I never played the Hero system. I made the system; any similarities to other systems in purely coincidental.

FF2? Also never played. But to my understanding, that's a video game; this is pen and paper, meaning it is QUITE different in both mechanics and play.