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View Full Version : Weapon focus/specialization remix (3.5)



Eladrinblade
2017-03-16, 12:54 AM
If you have specialization, mastery, or grandmastery in one weapon and focus in another, you have all these feats with both weapons.

Eldritch Knight counts as fighter levels in regards to prerequisites for these feats.

Weapon Focus
Pre: Bab +1, proficiency with chosen weapon
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls with the chosen weapon. In addition, when you roll attacks with the chosen weapon, if your die result is two to four, it is treated as a five. A natural one is still an automatic miss.

Weapon Specialization
Pre: Weapon Focus
Benefit: Gain the ability to make a standard attack with your specialized weapon as a swift action on your turn, but this downgrades your usual standard action to a move action (so you have two move actions left). If you have an iterative attack, you can make both as a standard action (or during a spring attack/shot on the run). If you are TWFing and have specialization with both weapons, you can make these attacks with each one.

Weapon Mastery
Pre: Fighter 4, weapon specialization
Benefit: Any time you deal damage or use a special maneuver (trip, disarm, etc) with the mastered weapon, your strength score is considered to be 4 points higher. If the weapon is a projectile weapon, you instead get a +2 bonus to damage rolls.

Weapon Grandmastery
Pre: Fighter 8, weapon mastery
Benefit: Your weapon specialization swift action attacks upgrade to regular free actions, and you gain the ability to make an attack with your mastered weapon as an immediate action (two if twf'ing, as with specialization), in addition to any other attacks you can make. This attack is always made at a -5 penalty. Your weapon focus bonus increases to +2.

nonsi
2017-03-16, 04:24 AM
Weapon Focus
Pre: Bab +1
Benefit: Choose a weapon group (using PF fighter weapon training groups). You are treated as having a bab equal to your character level when making attacks with these weapons (this includes iterative attacks), if you didn't already.


Fighters gain nothing from this while wizards gain a lot.
I believe this wasn't the intent.





Weapon Specialization
Pre: Bab equal to character level with weapon group in question
Benefit: Choose a weapon group (if you took weapon focus, it must be the same group). Gain a swift action attack at -5 when wielding these weapons once per round on your turn (two if twf'ing with weapons affected by the feat, making one attack with each weapon, breaking the 1 swift action per round rule). If you have spring attack or shot on the run (whichever would apply), you can make the attack(s) at the same time as your granted attack.


What does "Bab equal to character level with weapon group in question" mean?

nonsi
2017-03-16, 08:56 AM
Weapon Grandmastery
Pre: Fighter 8, weapon mastery
Benefit: Your weapon specialization swift action attacks upgrade to regular free actions, and you gain the ability to make an attack with your mastered weapons as an immediate action (two if twf'ing, as with specialization).


You should specify that it's still only one attack as a free action during that character's turn.

Eladrinblade
2017-03-16, 09:51 AM
Fighters gain nothing from this while wizards gain a lot.
I believe this wasn't the intent.

That is precisely the intent. Single-classed fighters have no use for weapon focus, and they don't need it for specialization.


What does "Bab equal to character level with weapon group in question" mean?

I'm not sure how to further simplify that statement, so I'll just add more words. You need a base attack bonus equal to your character level (if you're 12th level, you need a bab of +12) with the weapon group in question (meaning you either need a max bab or the weapon focus feat). You pick a weapon group for this feat just like for weapon focus (and if you took weapon focus, it needs to be the same group).


You should specify that it's still only one attack as a free action during that character's turn.

Actually it's two, if they use the immediate action one and the free action one during their turn instead of using the immediate action one when it's not their turn. Unless they're using TWF, in which case they can get four extra attacks.

The_Jette
2017-03-17, 02:26 PM
Generally regarded as weak feats for their flat numerical bonuses. I think they're fine for some characters, but when I made a core 20th level spiked chain human fighter and didnt think they were worth taking, I began to agree with everybody.

So, here's some ideas I had.

Weapon Focus
Pre: Bab +1
Benefit: Choose a weapon group (using PF fighter weapon training groups). You are treated as having a bab equal to your character level when making attacks with these weapons (this includes iterative attacks), if you didn't already.

Weapon Specialization
Pre: Bab equal to character level with weapon group in question
Benefit: Choose a weapon group (if you took weapon focus, it must be the same group). Gain a swift action attack at -5 when wielding these weapons once per round on your turn (two if twf'ing with weapons affected by the feat, making one attack with each weapon, breaking the 1 swift action per round rule). If you have spring attack or shot on the run (whichever would apply), you can make the attack(s) at the same time as your granted attack.

Weapon Mastery
Pre: Fighter 4, weapon specialization
Benefit: Any time you use your weapon to make an attack, deal damage, or use a special maneuver (trip, disarm, etc), your strength score is considered to be 4 points higher. If the weapon(s) is a projectile weapon, you instead get a +2 bonus to attacks and damage rolls.

Weapon Grandmastery
Pre: Fighter 8, weapon mastery
Benefit: Your weapon specialization swift action attacks upgrade to regular free actions, and you gain the ability to make an attack with your mastered weapons as an immediate action (two if twf'ing, as with specialization).

Thoughts?

Personally, I've never thought that being better with a specific weapon was a bad thing. Making it apply to a group instead of a single weapon type makes it an amazing feat. IMO, what you've done to this feat tree is illogical, and needlessly complex. Weapon Focus is one of the feat trees that make being a Fighter a decent option, especially if you take the whole set. +2 to hit and +4 to damage per hit is nothing to sneer at. You've taken what is normally a decent combat option for a Fighter and made it useless to them. My question is: if you thought that Weapon Focus and Specialization were not useful to the Fighter, why didn't you tweak them so that they'd be better, rather than making them even less so?

Eladrinblade
2017-03-17, 06:28 PM
My question is: if you thought that Weapon Focus and Specialization were not useful to the Fighter, why didn't you tweak them so that they'd be better, rather than making them even less so?

Well now they don't even have to take weapon focus, so that's not an issue, and I'd say I made specialization even better. Now, they take specialization first (maybe at 1st level even) and take Mastery at 4th, which does kinda what specialization used to, except better.

For fighters:
Focus > Specialization
is now
Specialization > Mastery, both being better

Not really seeing why you guys are getting caught up on this.

nonsi
2017-03-18, 01:17 AM
That is precisely the intent. Single-classed fighters have no use for weapon focus, and they don't need it for specialization.


Fighters already cry themselves to sleep at night. This will only make things worse, because noncombatants significantly reduces the gap from fighters - at the cost of a single feat !!.
No feat so far has ever increased BAB by even a single +1. What you're proposing is a feat that would potentially increase BAB by +10 at level 20.





I'm not sure how to further simplify that statement, so I'll just add more words. You need a base attack bonus equal to your character level (if you're 12th level, you need a bab of +12) with the weapon group in question (meaning you either need a max bab or the weapon focus feat). You pick a weapon group for this feat just like for weapon focus (and if you took weapon focus, it needs to be the same group).


Now I get what you meant.
I suggest finding something other than BAB increase.





Actually it's two, if they use the immediate action one and the free action one during their turn instead of using the immediate action one when it's not their turn. Unless they're using TWF, in which case they can get four extra attacks.


An observation: immediate actions are taken out of turn, not during one's turn.

Eladrinblade
2017-03-18, 02:31 AM
They can be taken during your turn. They're basically super swift-actions.

nonsi
2017-03-18, 04:51 AM
They can be taken during your turn. They're basically super swift-actions.

Then say so specifically.
RAW, a swift action can be taken as an immediate action, not vice versa.

Lyndworm
2017-03-18, 05:17 PM
RAW, a swift action can be taken as an immediate action, not vice versa.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but I think you have that backwards.


SWIFT ACTION
A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but it represents a larger expenditure of effort than a free action. You can take a swift action any time during your turn, but you can perform only one swift action per turn.

IMMEDIATE ACTION
An immediate action consumes a tiny amount of time. However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time during a round, even when it isn't your turn. Using an immediate action on your turn counts as your swift action for that turn. If you use an immediate action when it isn't your turn, you can't use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn. You can't use an immediate action when you're flat-footed.
Emphasis mine.

nonsi
2017-03-18, 10:04 PM
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but I think you have that backwards.


Emphasis mine.

Right. My bad. Too much ambient noise... too little sleep.

The_Jette
2017-03-20, 08:35 AM
Well now they don't even have to take weapon focus, so that's not an issue, and I'd say I made specialization even better. Now, they take specialization first (maybe at 1st level even) and take Mastery at 4th, which does kinda what specialization used to, except better.

For fighters:
Focus > Specialization
is now
Specialization > Mastery, both being better

Not really seeing why you guys are getting caught up on this.

Follow up question: Ignoring Weapon Focus for the moment, why would a fighter want to take your version of Weapon Specialization at first level? From what I can tell, it's essentially letting the fighter get their second attack from BAB way before they normally would but at a time that they wouldn't even really be able to benefit from it. Even assuming the fighter somehow managed to get an 20 in Str (18 nat +2 race), that would still only give a +0 for the second attack. As it is, a fighter can take Weapon Focus, Cleave, and Power Attack so that the same fighter would be hitting at +6 (+5 for +1/2 damage depending on one- or two-handed weapon), and if he kills the enemy gets an instant follow up attack at the same attack bonus. Your Weapon Specialization, plus Power Attack and Cleave would leave him at +5/+0, or +4/-1 for his attacks if he uses Power Attack.
I think the majority of questioning comes from the fact that rather than improving on a feat for Fighters, because you didn't think it was useful, you took away whatever usefulness it had and made it even more powerful for almost every other class. And, you did a piss poor job at explaining why.

jqavins
2017-03-20, 08:41 PM
The change seems to me like, as already noted, it reduces the fighting advantage of fighters and also adds a bunch of new complication. If Weapon Focus/Specialization need a little pumping up, how about just giving the Greaters for free when the prerequisite levels are reached? Maybe making those levels lower.

ngilop
2017-03-20, 08:53 PM
I am just confused on why you felt the need to screw over fighters and literally make every other class in the game do the same thing a base fighter can do, but now they get even better things to go along with it.

Unless of course screwing fighters over and making wizards be better fighters than fightes than they already are now then ignore anything I said.

If you just did this without actually put any real thought into it and your plan was to make fighters actually decent in regards to their feats then take a look at this its my first version of the weapon focus/specialization line homebrew I recommend taking a looka nbd adapting some of it to your version of said feats.

Weapon Focus [General]
Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for purposes of this feat.
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon, as well as a +1 bonus to disarm and sunder attempts.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.

A fighter may select Weapon Focus as one of his fighter bonus feats. He must have Weapon Focus with a weapon to gain the Weapon Specialization feat for that weapon.

Weapon Specialization [General]
Choose one type of weapon for which you have already selected the Weapon Focus feat. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple as your weapon for purposes of this feat. You deal extra damage when using this weapon.
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, Weapon Focus with selected weapon, fighter level 4th, or Base Attack Bonus +6
Benefit: You gain a +4 bonus on all damage rolls you make using the selected weapon.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.

A fighter may select Weapon Specialization as one of his fighter bonus feats.


Greater Weapon Focus [General]
Choose one type of weapon for which you have already selected Weapon Focus. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for purposes of this feat.
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, Weapon Focus with selected weapon, fighter level 6th, OR Base Attack Bonus +8
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon, as well as a +1 bonus to disarm and sunder attempts, these bonuses increase by an additional +1 for every 4th Base Attack Bonus. This bonus stacks with other bonuses on attack rolls, including the one from Weapon Focus.
Special: You can gain Greater Weapon Focus multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.

A fighter must have Greater Weapon Focus with a given weapon to gain the Greater Weapon Specialization feat for that weapon.

A fighter may select Greater Weapon Focus as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Greater Weapon Specialization [General]
Choose one type of weapon for which you have already selected Weapon Specialization. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple as your weapon for purposes of this feat.
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, Greater Weapon Focus with selected weapon, Weapon Focus with selected weapon, Weapon Specialization with selected weapon, fighter level 10th or Base Attack Bonus +12
Benefit: You gain a +6 bonus plus an additional +1 for every 2 points of Base Attack you have on all damage rolls you make using the selected weapon. This bonus stacks with other bonuses on damage rolls, including the one from Weapon Specialization.
Special: You can gain Greater Weapon Specialization multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.

A fighter may select Greater Weapon Specialization as one of his fighter bonus feats.

jqavins
2017-03-20, 09:45 PM
That deems like a pretty heavy boost, but maybe not too much.