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CharonsHelper
2017-04-17, 01:03 PM
Out of curiosity - do you as consumers have a sweet spot where you prefer a new RPG book to be? I realize that the length varies greatly depending upon the style of game, crunchiness, and how much setting fluff there is etc.

For me, I generally want the Core Book to be at least 200ish pages to feel like I can get into it (I'm not a fan of generic systems - which are the most common suspects of being shorter), but if it's pushing close to 400 I'm starting to cringe because of how many new rules I'll have to learn.

Now - I know that this can be adjusted with font size - just as shorter novels have larger font size & spacing to appear longer and a better value, while epic fantasies tend to have small text and close spacing so that they break the spine and fall apart.

Ex: I know that Pathfinder's 500+ pages would be even longer if it had a more easily readable font size. And yes - I play Pathfinder despite being so long since I already played 3.x, and about half of that are spells & magic item content rather than anything you have to actually learn to play. Though other games like the latest Exalted dwarf Pathfinder's length.

As a consumer, how long is so long that it's generally a turn-off? How short is so short it feels that there's no depth to the system/world and/or it's not a good bargain?

Vitruviansquid
2017-04-17, 01:23 PM
It matters far more to me that a book is well-organized than that it is long. Even if a book is a mere 20 pages, I want it to have separate summary pages to explain stuff like character generation, the combat flow, summaries of classes, and whatever else could be at all considered complex.

But a few virtues of small books is that they end to be cheaper, easier to reference, and generally more succinct. I also prefer books that would cover a lot of subject material to be split up. For example, if you had a single RPG with a setting, mechanics, and complex character classes, it wouldn't hurt to make a 50-page setting book, a 50-page book on mechanics, and a 50-page reference for players to look up their classes, as opposed to packing them all into a 150-page book.

CharonsHelper
2017-04-17, 01:27 PM
For example, if you had a single RPG with a setting, mechanics, and complex character classes, it wouldn't hurt to make a 50-page setting book, a 50-page book on mechanics, and a 50-page reference for players to look up their classes, as opposed to packing them all into a 150-page book.

I'd agree - except for monetary considerations.

For a PDF it doesn't matter, but it's a lot more expensive to print three separate 50 page books than it is to print one 150 page book, and that expense is inherently going to be passed along to the consumers.

Cluedrew
2017-04-17, 01:31 PM
That is hard to say.

At one extreme I have played a system that has a rulebook, but I don't know how long it is. I have seen the reference sheet, character creation reference sheet and character sheet. Three sheets of paper and a handful of dice. Mind you I wasn't buying that system, someone else had any gave me those sheets for the game and I know there are some system rules not in those sheets, those where explained to me.

On the other hand I didn't think that seeing the main D&D books (and the 2/3 versions of them) lined up was too much. I did think I would have to collect those books over time if I wanted them (I didn't, I didn't have a group then). So a wide range is acceptable.

But for the sweet spot... recently I read one that was just over 300 page and I felt it was starting to go on. Mind you the last section was about tweaking the system for the game (generic system) so wasn't the system itself. If it was padded with setting information, maybe it could have gone on longer, but I think that was about the limit.

On the other hand I have seen books that must of had less than a 100 pages and that didn't strike me as small. Of course I am in general a fan of minimalism, also a fan of complexity but less so now adays, so that might shift my range down. Double swordsage.

Vitruviansquid
2017-04-17, 01:32 PM
But you could set it up so the DM owns all the books, and each player only needs to own the player books, or a player with an elf character can own the elf book and not the dwarf or halfling books.

Anonymouswizard
2017-04-17, 02:07 PM
Honestly, my main concern isn't the number of pages. As long as the book is competently organised I don't care about the number of pages.

The measure I use is the 'amount of content'.

Any system should be playable with the core book (GURPS and D&D both technically break this rule, as do a few others, but with GURPS I except it as the corebooks were slightly cheaper than most systems I've bought). So a corebook should include:
-The core resolution system.
-Rules for making characters.
-Rules for making enemies, these might be identical to the character creation rules or different, it depends.
-Rules for modelling the world or modelling the story (I can run with either).
-Rules for handling character's equipment.
-Rules for any special powers the characters may have.

Now, if the rules are in pdf I don't mind selling cheaper versions which are for example 'character creation and core mechanics' (probably call that the 'player's guide' and sell it for £5 or bundled with the full pdf with permission to print it off for your players). But if a book needs 400 pages to get all it's rules in then it's as long as it needs to be.

Essentially my question is 'can I run adventures for two years or more with just this rulebook'. If the answer is yes and it's well-organised then it's fine.

CharonsHelper
2017-04-17, 02:20 PM
But you could set it up so the DM owns all the books, and each player only needs to own the player books, or a player with an elf character can own the elf book and not the dwarf or halfling books.

Then that might be cheaper for the players (but still more expensive for the GM), but I don't think it's reasonable to expect a publisher to print a dozen versions of the player books for various character types/races. (Plus - a lot of players would want to see the rules for all beforehand and/or change it up from game to game.)

Vitruviansquid
2017-04-17, 02:42 PM
Then that might be cheaper for the players (but still more expensive for the GM), but I don't think it's reasonable to expect a publisher to print a dozen versions of the player books for various character types/races. (Plus - a lot of players would want to see the rules for all beforehand and/or change it up from game to game.)

It's unreasonable to have a dozen player books?

This is already how recent editions of D&D work. If I was playing an eld fighter in 4e, I don't need PHB 2, which talks about how to play a Goliath Barbarian, nor a PHB 3 which talks about Minotaur Monks.

As a player, I can buy the books which contain what I'm interested in and still be able to play.

As a DM, I can also buy settings I'm interested in and not the others.

Even imagine if I made a universal system. I can sell a separate book to make the game better at portraying a medieval fantasy setting, another book for cowboy stuff, and yet another for sci fi.

And doesn't World of Darkness also already do this? You have your separate books for being vampires and werewolves and such, and they're all compatible to being in the same game.

CharonsHelper
2017-04-17, 02:46 PM
It's unreasonable to have a dozen player books?

This is already how recent editions of D&D work. If I was playing an eld fighter in 4e, I don't need PHB 2, which talks about how to play a Goliath Barbarian, nor a PHB 3 which talks about Minotaur Monks.


Each of those books have dozens of possible options - not 1 each. It sounded like you were saying that it should be split further.

In addition - the core rules are all in the same place - PHB1 - and that's required to play even if your class & race are from entirely different books.

Vitruviansquid
2017-04-17, 02:55 PM
I used elves and dwarves as an example in the first post, not a reference to D&D.

Of course, if you're printing books at all, it would be foolish to divide your game so much that you print hardcovers with 10 pages each.

CharonsHelper
2017-04-17, 03:06 PM
I used elves and dwarves as an example in the first post, not a reference to D&D.

Of course, if you're printing books at all, it would be foolish to divide your game so much that you print hardcovers with 10 pages each.

Gotcha. It appears that I misunderstood you then.

Cluedrew
2017-04-17, 03:21 PM
On Multiple Books: Regardless of how large the books are, if there are multiple books I would like there to be a single core book with enough rules to play the game. The other books, I feel, should function as expansions. Adding setting details, new subsystems, races, classes, skills, new settings or rules for factions as appropriate for the system. I would of quoted Anonymouswizard's list but if your system has an odd layout and doesn't need one of those things, sure. On the other hand I would add character advancement to the list of usual suspects.

Actually I'm going to steal use without permission another idea of from Anonymouswizard. Amount of content: the core book should let you tell a story with the system (let you plan and run a campaign) and each splat should let you tell a story about something new, new kinds of people, in a new place, at a different scale or with new types of conflict.

Again how many pages that takes would really vary, I think a few dozen pages should be plenty for an expansion if you are really focused (even with pictures, examples and design notes) although to bring in a bit for everyone that might bring it closer to 100, and that is assuming a rules light system. Core book probably 2-3 times the size, just off instinct.

Max_Killjoy
2017-04-17, 03:40 PM
As others have noted, organization, indexing, and clarity matter at least as much as raw length.

For example, nothing drives me crazier more than having the core rules scattered across the entire book, with say the rules for dual-wielding weapons off in the skills section some weapon skill or the talent section for "ambidexterity", and buried in the text unlabelled, instead of right in the main combat section plainly labeled and clearly presented. And then the rules for unarmed fighting buried in some other skill or whatever. Or half the rules for something in one spot, and then a bunch of important notes or modifiers or exceptions in other spots.

If I look in the index for something specific and see 20 entries for certain things, that's a bad sign... but at least it's a better sign than having no index, or an index that turns out to be incomplete or uselessly random.

Anonymouswizard
2017-04-17, 03:46 PM
I would of quoted Anonymouswizard's list but if your system has an odd layout and doesn't need one of those things, sure. On the other hand I would add character advancement to the list of usual suspects.

True, the exact list of what you need will differ (a game based on courtly intrigue probably doesn't need a full combat system in the core rulebook, but rather a simple duelling system). I also personally see character advancement as something that should be linked to the character creation rules if possible, so that's why it's left out :smallsmile:

CharonsHelper
2017-04-17, 03:50 PM
What do you guys think about systems which have all core rules in one book except the Monster Manual or its equivalent in a separate book? (such as in Pathfinder) Many books don't have a MM equivalent at all, so I'm not sure how core it is, but in D&D it's pretty much required for play.

Anonymouswizard
2017-04-17, 04:05 PM
What do you guys think about systems which have all core rules in one book except the Monster Manual or its equivalent in a separate book? (such as in Pathfinder) Many books don't have a MM equivalent at all, so I'm not sure how core it is, but in D&D it's pretty much required for play.

If it's important to the system? Into the corebook, selling it for more is annoying. Anima managed to have a core system (YMMV on it's quality), several kinds of supernatural powers, a brief setting overview, a set of 'standard' NPCs, and a monster creation system all in one book.

Now this is different if the monsters are created as PCs with a few tweaks, and the book is just a load of premade monsters. If I can make a large number of opponents from the core rulebook you aren't selling me something essential, you're selling me convenience. I'm fine with being sold convenience.

(Now bare in mind I'm used to groups where you're lucky if two people own the core rulebook)

Cluedrew
2017-04-17, 07:27 PM
I also personally see character advancement as something that should be linked to the character creation rules if possible, so that's why it's left out :smallsmile:Well I'm currently making a game where I have character creation rules, but no character advancement rules. So they seem pretty distinct to me right now.

To CharonsHelper: If it is required for play, it is part of the core rules, otherwise I would say that is completely fair expansion material. (New kinds of opponents.)

CharonsHelper
2017-04-17, 09:07 PM
If it's important to the system? Into the corebook, selling it for more is annoying. Anima managed to have a core system (YMMV on it's quality), several kinds of supernatural powers, a brief setting overview, a set of 'standard' NPCs, and a monster creation system all in one book.

Now this is different if the monsters are created as PCs with a few tweaks, and the book is just a load of premade monsters. If I can make a large number of opponents from the core rulebook you aren't selling me something essential, you're selling me convenience. I'm fine with being sold convenience.


To CharonsHelper: If it is required for play, it is part of the core rules, otherwise I would say that is completely fair expansion material. (New kinds of opponents.)

I'm mostly debating between having a few basic monsters in my core book and the rest in the Threats of the Starlanes or putting them all in the Threats of the Starlanes book. Largely I'm leaning towards putting them all in the Threats book because I remember finding it really annoying to flip back and and forth between the core & threats book in Star Wars Saga - since the basic foes like stormtroopers were in the core book.

Though of note: I plan to have free pdfs of the quick-start rules along with a decent chunk of lower level/basic foes for free. So with the free pdfs the Threats of the Starlanes book wouldn't be required for play.

Vitruviansquid
2017-04-17, 09:45 PM
Put a few monsters as examples in the core rulebook. If you have different classes of monsters, maybe just one of each. The players need to know what composes a monster in your game, especially if a monster's stats isn't the same as a player character's.

If you have an analogue to a Monster Manual, though, keep most of your monsters in the Monster Manual. An important function of monster manuals is that players can choose not to look at it, and thus not spoil themselves on the monsters.

Mastikator
2017-04-17, 11:13 PM
As short as possible is the sweet spot. I'm not kidding, add only things that are necessary and do not try to meet some kind of page quota. If it turns into a 10 page pamphlet then good. The more information the GM and the players have to retain the more likely it is that they go back to the books during play over and over which is a huge drag.

If you can condense the player manual, GM manual and monster manual so much that together they are less than 300 pages then feel free to combine them into a single book.

Knaight
2017-04-18, 12:37 AM
If you can condense the player manual, GM manual and monster manual so much that together they are less than 300 pages then feel free to combine them into a single book.

Alternately you can work with other frameworks - the set of three books is very much a D&D standard, plenty of games don't need a monster manual or equivalent, and among those that don't one book is much more standard than two.

Max_Killjoy
2017-04-18, 06:38 AM
Another issue with length is what's in there besides information.

It seems that in many instances, the book-bloat is caused by formatting, fancy fonts and "artistic" use of color, excessive inclusion of large and splash-page artwork, overuse of sidebars and such, etc.

(See, latest edition of L5R.)

thamolas
2017-04-18, 11:39 AM
It's unreasonable to have a dozen player books?

This is already how recent editions of D&D work. If I was playing an eld fighter in 4e, I don't need PHB 2, which talks about how to play a Goliath Barbarian, nor a PHB 3 which talks about Minotaur Monks.

As a player, I can buy the books which contain what I'm interested in and still be able to play.

As a DM, I can also buy settings I'm interested in and not the others.

Even imagine if I made a universal system. I can sell a separate book to make the game better at portraying a medieval fantasy setting, another book for cowboy stuff, and yet another for sci fi.

And doesn't World of Darkness also already do this? You have your separate books for being vampires and werewolves and such, and they're all compatible to being in the same game.

What I like is a core book (100 pages or so) and a few add-on books for whatever I'm interested in or need more detail on.

Anonymouswizard
2017-04-18, 11:55 AM
What I like is a core book (100 pages or so) and a few add-on books for whatever I'm interested in or need more detail on.

Here we see the fact that ideal length is going to differ, several people like as short as possible, some like the 100 page mark, and others prefer their corebooks at 400+ pages.

Now, I'm actually going to go through and list how long I think the various sections should be on roughly A4 pages:
-Setting: 50 pages, maybe 100. Enough to give a brief overview without going into massive detail.
-Character creation: 20 pages, enough to give a decent amount of options but not so much it'll turn people off. 40 pages is an absolute maximum.
-Rules: the core rules should be about 10 pages including stuff like contested and extended checks.
-Combat: 10 pages, enough to cover things like darkness penalties, cover, range, and so on.
-GMing Advice: 5 pages.
-Encounter Building and Opponents: 30 pages.
-Advanced rules: up to about another 70 pages, can include stuff like spells.

So in total I like cores of about 200 pages, which is reflected in what I own.

Yora
2017-04-18, 12:01 PM
For a rulebook, 60 pages seems like a really good length. If the game can't be explained in that many pages, it's too complicated.

For setting books 120-200 is a good length.

Max_Killjoy
2017-04-18, 12:07 PM
Here we see the fact that ideal length is going to differ, several people like as short as possible, some like the 100 page mark, and others prefer their corebooks at 400+ pages.

Now, I'm actually going to go through and list how long I think the various sections should be on roughly A4 pages:
-Setting: 50 pages, maybe 100. Enough to give a brief overview without going into massive detail.
-Character creation: 20 pages, enough to give a decent amount of options but not so much it'll turn people off. 40 pages is an absolute maximum.
-Rules: the core rules should be about 10 pages including stuff like contested and extended checks.
-Combat: 10 pages, enough to cover things like darkness penalties, cover, range, and so on.
-GMing Advice: 5 pages.
-Encounter Building and Opponents: 30 pages.
-Advanced rules: up to about another 70 pages, can include stuff like spells.

So in total I like cores of about 200 pages, which is reflected in what I own.


At the end of the day, it's about completeness, clarity, and utility, not about any raw page count.

Anonymouswizard
2017-04-18, 12:15 PM
At the end of the day, it's about completeness, clarity, and utility, not about any raw page count.

True, I just find that if the page count adds up to about 200 pages I tend to find it complete enough for me. Of course it will vary, some 200 page books are more complete than others, and an unclear book is useless (thank you Shadowrun 5e for hiding most of the stuff I actually want to look up in game*. I've switched to 3e because I can't get 4 and it gives you more stuff in less pages, and slightly better organised for the most part).

* The big one was grappling, I couldn't find the system for months.

CharonsHelper
2017-04-18, 02:48 PM
At the end of the day, it's about completeness, clarity, and utility, not about any raw page count.

Oh - I'm definitely with you. I was just curious. Plus - "best" is pretty darned subjective, and besides artwork, the thickness of the book is about the second thing that a consumer will see.

Mainly - I'm getting to the point in Space Dogs where I can ballpark how many pages it'll be when finished, and I was curious what peoples' preferences were, especially since it looks like it's gonna be a good chunk shorter than I thought it would when I started writing it.


Here we see the fact that ideal length is going to differ, several people like as short as possible, some like the 100 page mark, and others prefer their corebooks at 400+ pages.

Now, I'm actually going to go through and list how long I think the various sections should be on roughly A4 pages:
-Setting: 50 pages, maybe 100. Enough to give a brief overview without going into massive detail.
-Character creation: 20 pages, enough to give a decent amount of options but not so much it'll turn people off. 40 pages is an absolute maximum.
-Rules: the core rules should be about 10 pages including stuff like contested and extended checks.
-Combat: 10 pages, enough to cover things like darkness penalties, cover, range, and so on.
-GMing Advice: 5 pages.
-Encounter Building and Opponents: 30 pages.
-Advanced rules: up to about another 70 pages, can include stuff like spells.

So in total I like cores of about 200 pages, which is reflected in what I own.

That's actually a surprisingly close ballpark of where Space Dogs will end up - though I don't have an exact page count yet since I'm still writing, and even after that the page count could change based upon font size & art (I have a good chunk of artwork - but I won't get all of it until after the Kickstarter next year). The character creation might end up a bit high for your taste, but that includes my system's equivalent of spell-casting (psychic Talents). The encounter building/foes of the system will be much higher than that, but I intend for the bulk to be in a companion book.

(I'm a huge fan of having a plethora of potential foes/encounters at the ready as it makes GMing far easier, and having foes with special abilities adds a lot of inherent variety to the gameplay.)

Plus - being a space western, there are rules for mecha, vehicles, aircraft, & starships. (count in your "advanced rules" category?)

Telok
2017-04-19, 02:10 PM
I can deal with anything from 10 pages to 1000 pages as long as it has a good, logical, format, a good table of contents, and an through index. The first part of the book should be more written content with fewer tables and lists, the last half of the book can contain lots of tables and lists if they're in a logical format and indexed. Good examples (especially in the complicated sections) are appreciated.

The D&D 3.5 PH is pretty good. Lots of text in the beginning and not too many tables and lists, last half is the spell lists which is acceptable with it's class/level breakdown list at it's beginning. A useful glossary and a decent index. By contrast I found the D&D 4e and 5e PHs frustrating to use, consequently I don't own them.

Anonymouswizard
2017-04-19, 03:17 PM
That's actually a surprisingly close ballpark of where Space Dogs will end up - though I don't have an exact page count yet since I'm still writing, and even after that the page count could change based upon font size & art (I have a good chunk of artwork - but I won't get all of it until after the Kickstarter next year). The character creation might end up a bit high for your taste, but that includes my system's equivalent of spell-casting (psychic Talents). The encounter building/foes of the system will be much higher than that, but I intend for the bulk to be in a companion book.

(I'm a huge fan of having a plethora of potential foes/encounters at the ready as it makes GMing far easier, and having foes with special abilities adds a lot of inherent variety to the gameplay.)

Plus - being a space western, there are rules for mecha, vehicles, aircraft, & starships. (count in your "advanced rules" category?)

For the record, if it's optional, including psychic powers, vehicles, and so on would be 'advanced rules'.

Now, I'm not against having a ton of potential foes at the ready, I just think you shouldn't be forced to buy multiple books to run a system. As long as it's a case of 'here's a bunch of preconfigured opponents' I'm fine with such books and may actually buy them.

CharonsHelper
2017-04-19, 03:54 PM
For the record, if it's optional, including psychic powers, vehicles, and so on would be 'advanced rules'.

Well - the psychic powers are required for the two psychic base classes, but not for the other six. So - in the same way the magic system isn't required for D&D, only a group wouldn't be gimped without a psychic.


Now, I'm not against having a ton of potential foes at the ready, I just think you shouldn't be forced to buy multiple books to run a system. As long as it's a case of 'here's a bunch of preconfigured opponents' I'm fine with such books and may actually buy them.

Yeah - I'm thinking that I'll have the stats of most of the major alien species along with the fluff in the section on them (none are playable - the PCs are intended to be human) and then have a few examples in the GM section on experience/leveling and challenge building, along with the NPC only classes (for non-combatants & mooks). That - plus a small sampling in the free PDF quick-start rules should make the game perfectly playable without the Threats of the Starlanes supplement, with as many or more potential foes as many TTRPGs.

I'll still definitely be highly recommending that GMs grab it for ease of use and a larger variety of foes. (Plus more starships/mecha/space station layouts etc.) I'm even thinking that I'll include the PDF of Threats of the Starlanes for free with the print core book during the Kickstarter.

Anonymouswizard
2017-04-19, 05:47 PM
Well - the psychic powers are required for the two psychic base classes, but not for the other six. So - in the same way the magic system isn't required for D&D, only a group wouldn't be gimped without a psychic.



Yeah - I'm thinking that I'll have the stats of most of the major alien species along with the fluff in the section on them (none are playable - the PCs are intended to be human) and then have a few examples in the GM section on experience/leveling and challenge building, along with the NPC only classes (for non-combatants & mooks). That - plus a small sampling in the free PDF quick-start rules should make the game perfectly playable without the Threats of the Starlanes supplement, with as many or more potential foes as many TTRPGs.

I'll still definitely be highly recommending that GMs grab it for ease of use and a larger variety of foes. (Plus more starships/mecha/space station layouts etc.) I'm even thinking that I'll include the PDF of Threats of the Starlanes for free with the print core book during the Kickstarter.

For the record I'm personally making a 'rules medium space opera' game, where psionics don't really feature. The 'magic users' are the engineers, who begin with the ability to repair technology and then learn how to supercharge or jury-rig items. One of their most impressive advances is to miniaturise anything, from a wormhole drive to a gravity generator, while having it retain full functionality (yes, that does mean you can wormhole between systems without a ship, assuming you've got a powerful enough generator [I suggest buying Miniaturisation: Nuclear Reactor]). Although it isn't truly a classed system, because I prefer more freeform development.

Sounds fine on the enemy front honestly, although I've decided to just run with 'opponents use same stats as PCs, here are relative skill levels for balancing, here's a bunch of example foes', but then I'm also not against players playing barrels with four branching tentacle manipulators and four short legs so the character creation system will literally have all the aliens in the galaxy crammed in if I can manage it (sure, it comes up to 15+ pages of aliens in addition to the 3ish explaining how to build a character, 4 explaining the attributes and skills, and however many explaining talents, but aliens are cool).

Cluedrew
2017-04-19, 08:08 PM
[I suggest buying Miniaturisation: Nuclear Reactor]... This is the best type of that makes absolutely no sense at all.

Come to think of it, I still have never played any sort of futuristic role-playing game, always either fantasy or modern. How far along are these systems?

CharonsHelper
2017-04-19, 09:01 PM
... This is the best type of that makes absolutely no sense at all.

Come to think of it, I still have never played any sort of futuristic role-playing game, always either fantasy or modern. How far along are these systems?

Space Dogs's core system is done - though I still need to add content (especially foes) and I'm fleshing out the setting. Plus still tweaking the system and making it easier to read as I play-test more. (I'm headed to Mar-con in a few weeks, and headed to Origins in June.)

If you're offering to take a gander and potentially play-test, I'd be more than willing. One thing I've found is an extremely hard part of writing a new system is finding different groups of play-testers.

PS: As another selling point, I already have a decent chunk of artwork - all of the major alien species, most of the volucris (bug monster aliens) types, and several iconics.

BayardSPSR
2017-04-19, 09:14 PM
The more concise the better (clarity permitting). Can you do it in a page? Do it in a page.

If it takes longer to read the rules (let alone learn the rules) than play a session, I'm looking elsewhere for an RPG.

The same goes for settings.

Anonymouswizard
2017-04-20, 09:52 AM
... This is the best type of that makes absolutely no sense at all.

Come to think of it, I still have never played any sort of futuristic role-playing game, always either fantasy or modern. How far along are these systems?

I was just up to being ready to playtest it (although I still hadn't written the vehicle and spaceship rules I had almost everything else), and then someone stole the USB stick I keep all my gaming stuff on. And it wasn't back up because bout 98% of that stick was pdfs from DriveThruRPG. I could rebuild it in a couple of months, but I've got exams soon so I don't expect to have anything pre-August.


Space Dogs's core system is done - though I still need to add content (especially foes) and I'm fleshing out the setting. Plus still tweaking the system and making it easier to read as I play-test more. (I'm headed to Mar-con in a few weeks, and headed to Origins in June.)

If you're offering to take a gander and potentially play-test, I'd be more than willing. One thing I've found is an extremely hard part of writing a new system is finding different groups of play-testers.

PS: As another selling point, I already have a decent chunk of artwork - all of the major alien species, most of the volucris (bug monster aliens) types, and several iconics.

I'd be willing to take a gander, grammar and clarity check, and other such stuff, although I can't promise I'll be able to playtest it because I don't have a group at the moment and might not for a while. :smallsmile:

CharonsHelper
2017-04-20, 02:19 PM
I'd be willing to take a gander, grammar and clarity check, and other such stuff, although I can't promise I'll be able to playtest it because I don't have a group at the moment and might not for a while. :smallsmile:

Awesome sauce. I'm always after people to give it a gander. (no pressure! :smalltongue:)

I'm at work at the moment, and I'm doing some international traveling tonight through this weekend. But I'll definitely take you up on your offer on Monday. (And when you get your game back together I'll owe you a gander in turn. Sorry for your bad luck on that.)

Anderlith
2017-04-20, 04:07 PM
Nothing less than about 500 pages. Including both GM options & player options with a few pre-made antagonists/monsters. Anything less feels way to rushed/dependant on DM fiat.

2D8HP
2017-04-21, 07:15 PM
For a rulebook, 60 pages seems like a really good length. If the game can't be explained in that many pages, it's too complicated.

For setting books 120-200 is a good length.


That sounds about right.

Let's see (some rules I"ve enjoyed or have been impressed by):

1977 D&D "blue book" (my entry into RPG's, and the first rules I use as a DM/GM, which I did before becoming a "player"): - 48 pages

1974 D&D "LBB's", with '75-'76 Greyhawk, Blackmoor, Eldrich Wizardry, and God's, Demi-Gods & Heroes (first RPG I was a player for, but we used some other books as well, and we didn't use all the rules)
- 350 pages (about)

1994 Classic D&D - 128 pages

2005 Pendragon (the latest edition of the game I have)- 228 pages

5e D&D PHB (the game I've played the most lately) - 316 pages

FATE Accelerated (the game that fits in my backpack best) - 48 pages

So 48 to 350 pages.

CharonsHelper
2017-04-24, 05:06 PM
I'd be willing to take a gander, grammar and clarity check, and other such stuff, although I can't promise I'll be able to playtest it because I don't have a group at the moment and might not for a while. :smallsmile:

Well - here's most of Space Dogs along with one of the game's iconic Warrior (half done on that front). Each chapter I put as a separate link since I keep them as separate docs (easier to edit). The last few chapters are pure fluff - and I have some more fluff/setting stuff I'm planning to mix in such as excerpts from an anti-human publication and a few short-stories to show the setting from a more personal point of view.

Let me know when you're to the stage when you want a review of your game and I'll return the favor. (And be brutal. With all of the novel rejections I've gotten I have a pretty thick skin.)

http://i67.tinypic.com/2whecdd.jpg

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mDrYxikgfNCOijFn91sOLuprJlSdWoPXmN0EgfHgs8g/edit?usp=sharing
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IFS0GOOcEJuGhtCDuGFpEYHCNMrdLq-xtclna-Zioys/edit?usp=sharing
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1F-snA9V8rzhwoAATQOR-m6x08SRxuriHqs8xgKKQMFw/edit?usp=sharing
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OsE0VObL1bcltA9NbFL2RuduO6T9Z1nJ7u3AxCvN9bg/edit?usp=sharing
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BwKyxLo0jIWO7vQZGr-ILnx5_t_yBv_OMoaMg54rxAk/edit?usp=sharing
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CjsJ2e7Qx01Iz7bRVaezoHVBRNO4nYT_q-pS9G6UrcM/edit?usp=sharing
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1X1v0HtuEa2MdhPlfCDcSc8BeXt4ZIwppbYQXpmqHFak/edit?usp=sharing
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bPTIJrdHjDDtzuht5Q6eQP3u02Z03sQ_re3x-5c-i-I/edit?usp=sharing
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DIcC1cZsdA5RCuzvu0H0WX5gWdOKjRJKvX0knRn04Ws/edit?usp=sharing
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1C5s0bXlqiDI2GH02FhL4szXuII0txhYejuGoMSyHNp4/edit?usp=sharing
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1lwQC7GTFaERtvs01MhO_BrcyCmHLtKCPQktVd2mbcbM/edit?usp=sharing
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1P6rvdZKHh3Xk9FbczLL6DyzieulNdtj1ZBn37KG6Lvg/edit?usp=sharing
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wN0OgKMr_VwKmE0OrTpnH_-AoGp50utg-mcfHmaERmc/edit?usp=sharing
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1futbTkOJ9KsCKoUAeszPY6q5V1iXie40IkTcE5YbYi0/edit?usp=sharing
https://docs.google.com/document/d/19h4a4j6WZqmkP11vI2fYJeRPPQGspV-Zqk7pc7oVJdM/edit?usp=sharing
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1G6zLeuDYzaMi8Hq0yc8RreU6dnJC5iz-XfhAodABfkY/edit?usp=sharing
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uWsrLFGkjtZM0klPUA_4F-R5qBVXclK5x5jyHcjrKfI/edit?usp=sharing
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_Lg-pgfIsBMmc_gaoVhWXFyF-tysVDkF50YIwpP-_As/edit?usp=sharing
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wWJ37dbUbDX8Ekecg57nIXzbcsHMQdvg17B11cBo11c/edit?usp=sharing

Edit: The fluff especially has gaps and missing bits - and the last chapter (Theats of the Starlanes - basically think Monster Manual) hasn't been totally updated with all of my lastest tweaks to the system.

Cealocanth
2017-04-25, 08:55 AM
About 200 pages cover to cover. It needs to be short enough to be skimmed in 1 hour to throw a game together on the fly, but long enough that it needs to be studied, rather than memorized.

Anonymouswizard
2017-04-25, 02:34 PM
Well - here's most of Space Dogs along with one of the game's iconic Warrior (half done on that front). Each chapter I put as a separate link since I keep them as separate docs (easier to edit). The last few chapters are pure fluff - and I have some more fluff/setting stuff I'm planning to mix in such as excerpts from an anti-human publication and a few short-stories to show the setting from a more personal point of view.

Let me know when you're to the stage when you want a review of your game and I'll return the favor. (And be brutal. With all of the novel rejections I've gotten I have a pretty thick skin.)

http://i67.tinypic.com/2whecdd.jpg

introduction (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mDrYxikgfNCOijFn91sOLuprJlSdWoPXmN0EgfHgs8g/edit?usp=sharing)
abilities (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IFS0GOOcEJuGhtCDuGFpEYHCNMrdLq-xtclna-Zioys/edit?usp=sharing)
classes (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1F-snA9V8rzhwoAATQOR-m6x08SRxuriHqs8xgKKQMFw/edit?usp=sharing)
psychic stuff (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OsE0VObL1bcltA9NbFL2RuduO6T9Z1nJ7u3AxCvN9bg/edit?usp=sharing)
skills (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BwKyxLo0jIWO7vQZGr-ILnx5_t_yBv_OMoaMg54rxAk/edit?usp=sharing)
combat (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CjsJ2e7Qx01Iz7bRVaezoHVBRNO4nYT_q-pS9G6UrcM/edit?usp=sharing)
mechs (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1X1v0HtuEa2MdhPlfCDcSc8BeXt4ZIwppbYQXpmqHFak/edit?usp=sharing)
mechs 2: electric boogaloo (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bPTIJrdHjDDtzuht5Q6eQP3u02Z03sQ_re3x-5c-i-I/edit?usp=sharing)
vehicles (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DIcC1cZsdA5RCuzvu0H0WX5gWdOKjRJKvX0knRn04Ws/edit?usp=sharing)
starships (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1C5s0bXlqiDI2GH02FhL4szXuII0txhYejuGoMSyHNp4/edit?usp=sharing)
enviromental rules (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1lwQC7GTFaERtvs01MhO_BrcyCmHLtKCPQktVd2mbcbM/edit?usp=sharing)
equipment (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1P6rvdZKHh3Xk9FbczLL6DyzieulNdtj1ZBn37KG6Lvg/edit?usp=sharing)
aliens (legal and otherwise) (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wN0OgKMr_VwKmE0OrTpnH_-AoGp50utg-mcfHmaERmc/edit?usp=sharing)
GM chapter (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1futbTkOJ9KsCKoUAeszPY6q5V1iXie40IkTcE5YbYi0/edit?usp=sharing)
life and stuff (https://docs.google.com/document/d/19h4a4j6WZqmkP11vI2fYJeRPPQGspV-Zqk7pc7oVJdM/edit?usp=sharing)
institutions (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1G6zLeuDYzaMi8Hq0yc8RreU6dnJC5iz-XfhAodABfkY/edit?usp=sharing)
star systems (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uWsrLFGkjtZM0klPUA_4F-R5qBVXclK5x5jyHcjrKfI/edit?usp=sharing)
warp travel (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_Lg-pgfIsBMmc_gaoVhWXFyF-tysVDkF50YIwpP-_As/edit?usp=sharing)
threats (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wWJ37dbUbDX8Ekecg57nIXzbcsHMQdvg17B11cBo11c/edit?usp=sharing)

Edit: The fluff especially has gaps and missing bits - and the last chapter (Theats of the Starlanes - basically think Monster Manual) hasn't been totally updated with all of my lastest tweaks to the system.

I'll flip through it in real detail later (also named your links so I could find chapters when I wanted to refer back to them), but for what I can see from my current skim:
-first chapter seems fine
-second chapter is not exactly what I'd do (I'd separate all notes of healing and put them in the same section as damage), but again it all works
-the entire 'half of the X lost in an encounter recovers after 10 minutes' is cool, but would require more bookkeeping and potentially a sheet specifically designed with 'maximum'/'current'/'rested' boxes for each secondary attribute.
-why are stat checks 1d4+X? It sounds like skill checks are based on d8s, is there a good reason for ability checks to run on another scale? 1d8+stat will give them a bit more swing.
-minor maths problem, I can put my two primary scores at 5 and one secondary at 4 (4+4+2), and my second secondary at 4 if I drop both my tertiaries.
-in classes, first the text says you get you advanced class at level 6, and later it says you get it at level 4 (which is supported by the tables). Might be an idea to correct that.
-slight problem with the sidebars describing classes going over the class tables, might want to fix that quickly :smallsmile:
-no technologist class? That feels highly out of place in a science fiction game. Tricksters seem like the best way to do them, but nothing satisfactorily. I know it's a combat focused game, but in my experience someone always wants to play the engineer (and there have been fights over it).
-is the telepathy specialist a mindbender or a mentalist? I suggest sticking with the former, mentalist sounds like any sort of psychic.
-boy that's a load of talents. I'll look over both normal and psychic ones at a later date, and pick them apart one at a time in their own spoiler.
-All, here's where you're hiding the technology skills. Still annoyed there's nothing strictly tech related in the combat-related talents, something like 'spend a grit to unjam a weapon as a free/move action' would be cool.
-alright, skill checks are (skill+1)d8+(stats)? Works as well as anything, although now I'm confused as to why stat checks are on d4s.
-oh, you seem to refer to backgrounds as vocations in chapter X, which is it?
-it's not quite clear how increasing skill ranks works, is it 'once you've invested X points in this skill you have Y ranks'?
-initiative sounds like you expect many combats with multiple sides.
-movement/ranged/melee, with all sides completing the former actions before the latter are resolved? seems fine, reminds me of Rocket Age and how talking is always resolved before combat.
-most combat rules seem relatively standard, especially stuff like scale.
-attacking/damage isn't described in the combat section. At all. Seems really odd.
-I am not reading through the descriptions of non-person or ship scale stuff right now. Just don't have the energy.
-starship rules at least seem functional, although the rules seem to assume that space vessels act as atmospheric ones in most cases, which is a thing that bugs me.
-seems odd that there's no massive ships, even cargo haulers.
-environmental rules seem standard.
-equipment list is fine.
-alright, weapons. Now I just need to work out how attacks work, I see we have separate attack bonus and damage stuff, do I just roll what's in the 'attack bonus' column as my attack roll, and if I beat their defence roll what's in the damage column (and subtract from vitality)?
-not going to deal with the fluff right now.

I'll start looking over the rest tomorrow, but currently my eyes could do with a rest.

CharonsHelper
2017-04-25, 02:59 PM
I'll flip through it in real detail later (also named your links so I could find chapters when I wanted to refer back to them), but for what I can see from my current skim:
-first chapter seems fine
-second chapter is not exactly what I'd do (I'd separate all notes of healing and put them in the same section as damage), but again it all works
-the entire 'half of the X lost in an encounter recovers after 10 minutes' is cool, but would require more bookkeeping and potentially a sheet specifically designed with 'maximum'/'current'/'rested' boxes for each secondary attribute.
-why are stat checks 1d4+X? It sounds like skill checks are based on d8s, is there a good reason for ability checks to run on another scale? 1d8+stat will give them a bit more swing.
-minor maths problem, I can put my two primary scores at 5 and one secondary at 4 (4+4+2), and my second secondary at 4 if I drop both my tertiaries.
-in classes, first the text says you get you advanced class at level 6, and later it says you get it at level 4 (which is supported by the tables). Might be an idea to correct that.
-slight problem with the sidebars describing classes going over the class tables, might want to fix that quickly :smallsmile:
-no technologist class? That feels highly out of place in a science fiction game. Tricksters seem like the best way to do them, but nothing satisfactorily. I know it's a combat focused game, but in my experience someone always wants to play the engineer (and there have been fights over it).
-is the telepathy specialist a mindbender or a mentalist? I suggest sticking with the former, mentalist sounds like any sort of psychic.
-boy that's a load of talents. I'll look over both normal and psychic ones at a later date, and pick them apart one at a time in their own spoiler.
-All, here's where you're hiding the technology skills. Still annoyed there's nothing strictly tech related in the combat-related talents, something like 'spend a grit to unjam a weapon as a free/move action' would be cool.
-alright, skill checks are (skill+1)d8+(stats)? Works as well as anything, although now I'm confused as to why stat checks are on d4s.
-oh, you seem to refer to backgrounds as vocations in chapter X, which is it?
-it's not quite clear how increasing skill ranks works, is it 'once you've invested X points in this skill you have Y ranks'?
-initiative sounds like you expect many combats with multiple sides.
-movement/ranged/melee, with all sides completing the former actions before the latter are resolved? seems fine, reminds me of Rocket Age and how talking is always resolved before combat.
-most combat rules seem relatively standard, especially stuff like scale.
-attacking/damage isn't described in the combat section. At all. Seems really odd.
-I am not reading through the descriptions of non-person or ship scale stuff right now. Just don't have the energy.
-starship rules at least seem functional, although the rules seem to assume that space vessels act as atmospheric ones in most cases, which is a thing that bugs me.
-seems odd that there's no massive ships, even cargo haulers.
-environmental rules seem standard.
-equipment list is fine.
-alright, weapons. Now I just need to work out how attacks work, I see we have separate attack bonus and damage stuff, do I just roll what's in the 'attack bonus' column as my attack roll, and if I beat their defence roll what's in the damage column (and subtract from vitality)?
-not going to deal with the fluff right now.

I'll start looking over the rest tomorrow, but currently my eyes could do with a rest.

Wow - you got through a lot of that fast.

1. You caught a few spots where I changed the system but didn't change it in secondary descriptions. >.< (Such as getting your advanced class at 4 - which is a recent change. And changing "vocation" to "background".)

2. Yeah - I need more content for ship types & several other bits.

3. I suppose that I should change stat rolls to d8+ability for consistency, I just wanted d4+ability to be less swingy, so that you don't get the scrawny guy being able to pry open the X after the super brawny guy fails. But - you're right that it's probably not worth the inconsistency in the rules.

4. No technology class yet, but I am planning to lean that way in my 1st supplement which will include cybernetics & have new advanced classes which specialize in them. I do also plan to add a few more technology based Talents, which will allow any class to dabble. So correct - no class totally dedicated to tech. I want to avoid too many times when any one character has the spotlight for very long.

5. A lot of the formatting issues you saw was due to converting from Word to Google Docs. Sorry that I didn't clean them up.

6. Yes - I'm going to make sure to have space on the character sheet for putting the vitality/wounds/psyche/grit you used during the current encounter (already have on my alpha sheet - though it needs tweaking). I might also recommend using different colored tokens/beads as an option. It's the main bookkeeping aspect of the game. I know that for Talents I'm going to have optional cards - sort of like 4e did for Powers.

7. Yes - I definitely need to explain attack/defense better. The big trick is that different weapons/Talents use different dice (Ex: sword is more accurate but less damaging than an axe) and melee is basically opposed rolls, making less accurate weapons lower melee defense too.

8. I should probably make the initiative system clearer that I expect two sides 95% of the time - but I didn't want 3+ sides to not work.

9. Thanks for pointing out a few bits of the rules which are unclearly explained. And one that you didn't mean to. (How scaling meshes with the Vitality/Wound system is, as far as I know, pretty unique, due to damage against Vitality never being multiplied due to higher scale damage. It allows mecha to be scary without totally squashing PCs on foot, and weapons such as rocket launchers to be sub-par against infantry but necessary against mecha/tank scale targets.)

10. Yep - there are a lot of Talents, and I plan to add more before publishing. They're the primary way for characters to customize. In D&D terms they're a combination of feats & spells. Overall I'm pretty happy with their balance as (I think) they're all potentially useful, but besides the signature (class specific) Talents they're pretty niche. And they're all active abilities which cost to use, so no stacking of passives. (intentional design pillar)


minor maths problem, I can put my two primary scores at 5 and one secondary at 4 (4+4+2), and my second secondary at 4 if I drop both my tertiaries.
11. While possible - it's not an issue. For one, Space Dogs characters are all inherently pretty MAD, so there are no good dump stats. Second, you get ten additional attribute points every level, and I can't see any decent character not buying their tertiary stats back up to 3 by level two or three.

12. The starship combat is intentionally simple - and I created the mechanics/fluff with three main reasons. One, to make it simple/fast so that players don't totally avoid it as they do in many sci-fi RPGs, two - to have the fluff consistent with the combat mechanics mostly 2d (true 3d combat is freakin' impossible in a TTRPG), and finally to make boarding the enemy ship the alpha tactic for PCs to push gameplay back to the individual level (plus boarding an enemy ship is freakin' awesome).

Oh - and I almost forgot to include the timeline since it's not in a chapter yet - and it's probably the most important bit of fluff as it explains what the heck is going on.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Yc4RXeMWQMJZAmQfWe5i_rItVChR8bzrFYSoi6Kb7Ew/edit?usp=sharing

Grac
2017-04-25, 03:19 PM
I go into game shops and everything is so huge. Seriously, how does anyone expect new people to get involved when $60 books (I'm in Australia) are required, and those books are huge, requiring a significant amount of time and attention to read and understand.

If a game is more than a hundred pages, then the book is too long. The original basic set for d&d had a 48 page book. Basic/Expert each had 64 pages, and with some editing (some info is presented twice, or updated or whatever) it could be brought down to under 100, and a good chunk of that is DM info: much more space is taken up by monsters than spells.

Finally, squish it into a5 format. There's no point having it larger, while smaller is cheaper, and if paperback can even fit in your pocket.

Ideally, though, keeping it to way less than 100 should be a goal. Communicate everything that needs to be communicated and nothing more. And with everything computerised, having separate pdfs for expanded and extra content is both easy and feasible.

Cluedrew
2017-04-25, 09:06 PM
I started scrolling through it but I could only get to chapter 2 before one major issues started to get to me. I haven't looked at anyone else's feedback, trying to keep it my own. That main issue is: do you have anything for non-combat situations? And then I poked around a bit more and found some. But still I think you might want to at least talk about that a bit more in the beginning.

Other odds and ends:
Formatting issues with the side bars means a lot of them were cut off. Which is a shame, the 20 questions were interesting.

Abilities table is confusing. I had to spend a minute figuring out what it meant. What does - mean, that 1 is unreachable? But you said they can go from 1-10. Also you didn't say pt on any of the negative values for some reason, what that intentional?

Half of psyche/grit points lost in encounter: What if you haven't fully healed from the last encounter? Could that get complicated.

Labeling the two types of classes (base class) & ([base class] base class) is kind of inconsistent. One says it is a base class, the other is phrased similarly but mean that is this classes base class, maybe: (advanced class for [base class]) would be better.

True Psychics vs. Guardians: I don't think your justification of what separates the two types of psychics is true in underlying medicine. But I'm not a brain surgeon either. Maybe something about resonance between the mother and the unborn child if you want to play it safe, which is stronger if they are the same gender.

Talents might be a bit too wide. One of the main advantages of class based characters is focusing in on some ideas for easier character creation. Every single class takes some elements from the same list, so you kind of loose that. You also loose some raw differentness that classes allow. Outside of 2 signature talents and a bit more for the true psychic (as I recall) all the difference between the classes are numbers. Now maybe that will be enough to make the classes feel different. My gut instinct says it will not.

That and the combat focus are my main two issues with the system so far. There are things I like, for example the classes also break down walls between them and should prevent players from being locked to archetype. But... maybe I need to take a dip into the lore, or just finish the rules, but it feels more like a carefully balanced combat game than an RPG about interesting characters in interesting situations.

CharonsHelper
2017-04-25, 09:45 PM
I started scrolling through it but I could only get to chapter 2 before one major issues started to get to me. I haven't looked at anyone else's feedback, trying to keep it my own. That main issue is: do you have anything for non-combat situations? And then I poked around a bit more and found some. But still I think you might want to at least talk about that a bit more in the beginning.

Other odds and ends:
Formatting issues with the side bars means a lot of them were cut off. Which is a shame, the 20 questions were interesting.

Yeah - a lot of the fluff is in the sidebars. The 20 questions in the into - and the vibe of each of the 8 classes.


Abilities table is confusing. I had to spend a minute figuring out what it meant. What does - mean, that 1 is unreachable? But you said they can go from 1-10. Also you didn't say pt on any of the negative values for some reason, what that intentional?

Looking at it again - I 100% agree that it needs to be reworded. The total in the entire system is 1-10, but humans can't get as low as a 1 in anything (besides theoretically True Psychics who take a few stat penalties at level 4).


Half of psyche/grit points lost in encounter: What if you haven't fully healed from the last encounter? Could that get complicated.

You're not expected to have healed totally form the last encounter unless you have a chance to rest for a few hours. It's the long-term limit and the drawback to blowing through too many resources in the first fight of the day - but you'll never be totally hosed. I think that the character sheet helps a lot on this - or at least that's what my play-testers told me. *crosses fingers*


Labeling the two types of classes (base class) & ([base class] base class) is kind of inconsistent. One says it is a base class, the other is phrased similarly but mean that is this classes base class, maybe: (advanced class for [base class]) would be better.

That does sound better. I'm still in the process of changing my shorthand (easy for me to tweak) to be more readable.


True Psychics vs. Guardians: I don't think your justification of what separates the two types of psychics is true in underlying medicine. But I'm not a brain surgeon either. Maybe something about resonance between the mother and the unborn child if you want to play it safe, which is stronger if they are the same gender.

I might put that down as a second theory. Basically no one has a clue. There is no mechanical restriction - so if someone wants to be the only known male True Psychic they can be. It's just fluff - mostly because I thought it'd be cool to have a weird matriarchy based organization/cult. (Also - only True Psychics can guide ships safely through the warp without the builders' warp beacons. Guardians can't.)


Talents might be a bit too wide. One of the main advantages of class based characters is focusing in on some ideas for easier character creation. Every single class takes some elements from the same list, so you kind of loose that. You also loose some raw differentness that classes allow. Outside of 2 signature talents and a bit more for the true psychic (as I recall) all the difference between the classes are numbers. Now maybe that will be enough to make the classes feel different. My gut instinct says it will not.

It was intentional. Basically it's sort of a hybrid of classes & a directed point-buy. But besides Signature Talents (which are less niche and will be used more often than other Talents) the big different is the Primary Attributes of each class, which not only affect #s, but they affect which Talents you can qualify for.


That and the combat focus are my main two issues with the system so far. There are things I like, for example the classes also break down walls between them and should prevent players from being locked to archetype. But... maybe I need to take a dip into the lore, or just finish the rules, but it feels more like a carefully balanced combat game than an RPG about interesting characters in interesting situations.

Admittedly - I started with the combat first and worked my way out from there. And the classes themselves are mostly about combat because every character gets different Skills based upon their Background, and any Class can pick any Background. A Brute can be a diplomat (one of my play-testers is) though his Primary Attributes don't totally mesh so he won't be quite as good at it as a Commander or Trickster would be. But I really wanted to start with combat, as it's the place where balance matters most, and it's easier to flesh out non-combat stuff in bits & pieces (which I'm still doing) rather than all at once.

The non-combat mechanical stuff is mostly in Background/Skills & in equipment. But yes - much of the gameplay is combat and non-combat is a bit looser - partially to give leeway for technology stuff. It's a game about being hardcore space privateers, the humans, the feared new species of the starlanes - and that implies combat; though of note - due to the morale rules (which are still in flux) not every combat is to the death - and you can negotiate and/or intimidate them to surrender.


Thanks much for the feedback. I definitely picked up some stuff that I should tweak - especially spots which I explained poorly. (That I think is one of the hardest things for me to catch. After all - I KNOW what I'm trying to say.)

(My responses are in the spoilers.)

Lvl 2 Expert
2017-04-26, 03:24 AM
Hard question, because these books differ so much.

I'd say my sweet spot as a player would probably be around 30 pages (although I'm fine with much less), in the style of a typical RPG book writer. But that's only the information I need to read. It includes the core rules, the class I want to try (if there are classes) and any relevant mechanics like skills and spells I might be interested in. It does not include illustrations and it does not include examples.

Examples can be very nice. If you get a rule, skip the example. If you're not entirely clear on it, read it. So if the examples take up as much room as he actual mechanics, and the book is heavily illustrated about 80 pages for the parts I'm reading through would be about right.

And then there could be a bunch of stuff on the setting, a DM's chapter on creating the world, mechanics I don't plan on using, at least not right away, they can run on as long as they like. A 250 page book can still be in exactly that same sweet spot as a 30 page book, they're just giving me a whole lot of extra stuff to work with. If a bestiary is included the length can eve be unlimited as far as I'm concerned.

And that's for a book that prepares me for playing. If I'm just interested in reading through it and marveling at all the clever mechanics and the monsters or if I already know how to play and want to get more out of the experience I don't care about the length at all. I love the "expanded core" books from pathfinder, for instance. Every time you come up with some idea you can see if there is something like that in there.