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Hefty Lefty
2007-07-30, 01:18 PM
I've been having some trouble lately creating a character, a human rogue2/fighter2. I figured it was a good idea because (along with fulfilling the backstory), the 2 levels of fighter gave her 2 more of those yummy fighter feats. But then I thought...what feats would a rogue want (besides "Improved Initiative" and those skill-improving ones)?
I'm only using core books here, but most "Complete X" stuff is accepted in my group. I know the feats a ranger, fighter, or spellcaster would want, but what do you think are good feats for rogues, monks, barbarians, and the like? Are feats even worth it for these characters or should I just blow them on skill things?
Lastly, do you think Rge2/Ftr2 is a better build than Rge4? The only difference (aside from skills, hit points, and saves) is that she loses 2 fighter bonus feats and gains another d6 sneak attack, uncanny dodge, and trap sense+1.

Remus of Rome
2007-07-30, 01:26 PM
weapon finesse is a must because rouges have low str and high dex also because shields have check penalties two weapon fighting is never a bad thing to have as far as which of the 2 is better it really depends on how far the campaign goes if it goes epic lvl eventually strait rouge in my mind is better however if it doesn't go that high and you want to make a more combat oriented rouge then the fighter rouge would not be a bad build to have

PinkysBrain
2007-07-30, 01:32 PM
If you are a melee rogue you want the TWF chain and weapon finesse. If you aren't you want point blank shot, rapid shot, precise shot and perhaps manyshot and greater manyshot.

Dragonmuncher
2007-07-30, 01:35 PM
Weapon Finesse is good for Rogue/Fighters, and Improved Intiative is good for everybody.


If you're going for a TWF Rogue, you can use one of the feats for that.

Improved Unarmed Strike lets you walk up to someone all casual-like, and then BAM! Right between the eyes! Surprise attack means they're flatfooted, and you can deal lethal or nonlethal damage as you want. I've always liked Knockout punches...

PinkysBrain
2007-07-30, 01:37 PM
It's easier to just wear a gauntlet or if you have to spend a feat on that tactic, get quickdraw.

Keld Denar
2007-07-30, 01:43 PM
As long as you are going to keep progressing in rogue, more attacks are best. The above recommended TWF or archery feats are the best way to get them. Weapon Finesse also if you have a high dex. Weapon Focus (shortsword or kukri) are acceptable as long as you are duel wielding the same weapon to get the most mileage out of the feat. Some of the sneak attack substitution feats such as arterial strike are ok, if you think you can get use out of them. Most only benefit rogues working alone where you can ambush, sneak attack, run away, let them bleed, lather, rinse, repeat. This is inherantly dangerous though, especially at low levels. In a large group, most things will be dead via the fighter or wizard before you can really deal enough bleeding damage.

Good luck!

Person_Man
2007-07-30, 01:46 PM
Core-ish only Rogue builds tend to go with the Two Weapon Fighting or Greater Manyshot (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/psionicFeats.html#greater-manyshot) feat trees, as that's generally the best ways to maximize your damage output via Sneak Attack.

If Complete Scoundrel is usable, Rogue 3/Swash X with Daring Outlaw will grant you full Sneak Attack, 19/20 BAB, Insightful Strike, and free Weapon Finesse. That way you can use Sneak Attack and Power Attack together quite effectively.

If Complete Champion is usable, one level of Barbarian will grant you Pounce. If Unearthed Arcana is usable, you can use the Whirling Frenzy Rage variant to gain an extra attack.

Also, feats that provide special abilities that you can't gain from magic items and/or scaled damage (i.e., extra attacks or damage linked to BAB or class levels) tend to be much stronger then feats that provide small static bonuses (Weapon Focus, Dodge, Skill Focus, etc). For that reason, I'm not a fan of Improved Initiative. There are just too many other better feats to take.

Wih
2007-07-30, 09:51 PM
Deadly Precision - reroll all the 1s you roll on your sneak attack.
Improved Buckler Defense if you have shield proficiency - Use two weapons AND get a shield bonus to AC.

Chronos
2007-07-31, 02:33 PM
Also, feats that provide special abilities that you can't gain from magic items and/or scaled damage (i.e., extra attacks or damage linked to BAB or class levels) tend to be much stronger then feats that provide small static bonuses (Weapon Focus, Dodge, Skill Focus, etc). For that reason, I'm not a fan of Improved Initiative. There are just too many other better feats to take.I would argue that, for a rogue, Improved Initiative does scale, indirectly. Winning initiative means more sneak attacks, and sneak attack damage does scale.

Of course, this depends on your build and the rest of the party, for how easy it is to flank. If you're a melee rogue in a party with a bunch of other melee folks, you can probably flank for every attack anyway, so winning initiative doesn't matter as much. If, on the other hand, you're an archer rogue, or the rest of the party is largely spellcasters or ranged, you'll have a harder time flanking, and will mostly just get sneak attacks when you win initiative.

Quietus
2007-07-31, 02:55 PM
Deadly Precision - reroll all the 1s you roll on your sneak attack.
Improved Buckler Defense if you have shield proficiency - Use two weapons AND get a shield bonus to AC.

Deadly precision really isn't all that worthwhile. After all, you're only rerolling 1/6 of the dice... and it can come up on a 1 again. I think someone calculated it to add something like .5 average damage per sneak die or something like that.

ndragonsbane
2007-07-31, 03:01 PM
Here are some feats my rogue/swashbucker wished he could take:

Combat Expertise
Improved Feint
TWF/TWD trees
Improved Initiative

I recently picked up a level in fighter for a rogue I'm playing right now just for weapon finesse...all the sneak attack in the world doesn't matter if you can't hit in the first place.

Person_Man
2007-07-31, 03:04 PM
Deadly Precision - reroll all the 1s you roll on your sneak attack.
Improved Buckler Defense if you have shield proficiency - Use two weapons AND get a shield bonus to AC.

Deadly Precision only adds just under 0.5 average damage per Sneak Attack die of damage. So yes, it scales, but it does do very poorly. To maximize Sneak Attack, I prefer feats that add extra attacks.

Improved Buckler Defense is unnecessary in a world with Animated Shields and other cheap magical bonuses to AC.



I would argue that, for a rogue, Improved Initiative does scale, indirectly. Winning initiative means more sneak attacks, and sneak attack damage does scale.

Of course, this depends on your build and the rest of the party, for how easy it is to flank. If you're a melee rogue in a party with a bunch of other melee folks, you can probably flank for every attack anyway, so winning initiative doesn't matter as much. If, on the other hand, you're an archer rogue, or the rest of the party is largely spellcasters or ranged, you'll have a harder time flanking, and will mostly just get sneak attacks when you win initiative.

At low levels, yes, Improved Initiative is certainly handy. Winning Initiative means you get one or two (if there's a Surprise Round and your enemy doesn't participate) attacks on your enemy with Sneak Attack, and Improved Initiative increases the probability of you winning Initiative by about 10-30%.

But by mid levels, there are a wide variety of ways to ALWAYS qualify for Sneak Attack. Greater Invisibility is the obvious choice, but there are many others, such as a Ring of Blinking, Armor Lock, and various other spells that deny your opponent their Dex bonus. (Gods bless Use Magic Device!) So its short sighted to take a minor Initiative bonus in any game that will progress to mid levels, where its a far less important factor.

Arbitrarity
2007-07-31, 03:06 PM
Wouldn't Deadly precision add exactly 0.5 average damage?

Prehaps it's an insufficiently precise way of looking at it, but rerolling 1's makes the die effectively 1d5+1, which is average 4. 1d6 is average 3.5. A full statistical analysis takes longer:smallannoyed:

greyhoundpoe
2007-07-31, 03:13 PM
Deadly precision really isn't all that worthwhile. After all, you're only rerolling 1/6 of the dice... and it can come up on a 1 again. I think someone calculated it to add something like .5 average damage per sneak die or something like that.

You have a 1/6 chance of dealing an extra d6-1 (average 2.5) damage.

1/6 * 2.5 = 0.4166667 average damage per die.

Really not worth it.

Arbitrarity
2007-07-31, 03:15 PM
Doh. Missed that you only get a single reroll, apparently.

Person_Man
2007-07-31, 03:42 PM
Wouldn't Deadly precision add exactly 0.5 average damage?

Prehaps it's an insufficiently precise way of looking at it, but rerolling 1's makes the die effectively 1d5+1, which is average 4. 1d6 is average 3.5. A full statistical analysis takes longer:smallannoyed:

Normal Sneak Attack = (1+2+3+4+5+6)/6 = 3.5

Sneak Attack with Deadly Precision = {[(2+3+4+5+6)/5]*0.8333} + {[(1+2+3+4+5+6)/6]*0.1667} = 3.332 + 0.58345 = 3.91545

3.91545 - 3.5 = 0.41545 extra average damage per Sneak Attack die when you take Deadly Precision.

draca
2007-07-31, 03:53 PM
Something that will open up for you later (when your BAB is +8) is Improved Critical. Take that with a weapon that already has a broad critical range like a kukri dagger (or possibly something that doesn’t require an Exotic Weapon Proficiency) and you have some disgusting sneak attacks.

PinkysBrain
2007-07-31, 04:01 PM
Except you don't, since your base and flat bonus damage are comparatively low and your sneak attack does not get multiplied. Crits work better for barbarians than they do for rogues.

Jayabalard
2007-07-31, 04:03 PM
Normal Sneak Attack = (1+2+3+4+5+6)/6 = 3.5

Sneak Attack with Deadly Precision = {[(2+3+4+5+6)/5]*0.8333} + {[(1+2+3+4+5+6)/6]*0.1667} = 3.332 + 0.58345 = 3.91545

3.91545 - 3.5 = 0.41545 extra average damage per Sneak Attack die when you take Deadly Precision.Firstly, this is a much simpler grouping:
{[(1+2+3+4+5+6)/6] + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 6}/6 = (3.5 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 6) / 6 = 3.91666 (repeating of course)

secondly, you're rounding too early, which is introducing rounding errors, specifically your values for 1/6 and 5/6:
{[(2+3+4+5+6)/5]*5/6} + {[(1+2+3+4+5+6)/6]*1/6} = 3.3333333333 + 0.5833333333 (both repeating, of course) = 3.91666 (again, repeating of course)

Person_Man
2007-07-31, 04:20 PM
Firstly, this is a much simpler grouping:
{[(1+2+3+4+5+6)/6] + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 6}/6 = (3.5 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 6) / 6 = 3.91666 (repeating of course)

secondly, you're rounding too early, which is introducing rounding errors, specifically your values for 1/6 and 5/6:
{[(2+3+4+5+6)/5]*1/6} + {[(1+2+3+4+5+6)/6]*5/6} = 3.3333333333 + 0.5833333333 (both repeating, of course) = 3.91666 (again, repeating of course)

lol. Agreed. Though I find it funny that we just had a disagreement about 0.00121666 (repeating) damage?

Dad warned me that being a statistician would lead to a lot of pointless arguments with strangers. I guess he was right.

artaxerxes
2007-07-31, 06:02 PM
Craven, +1 dmg/level on sneak attacks.

Improved Feint - sneak attack non flat footed foes.