Tips for a Beginning Storyteller in Exalted.

[Callos_DeTerran]

I'm posting this here because I'm not really looking for advice on the rules (though if someone has them, by all means message them too me! I could use it) but just general story set-up and ideas. Could be applied to anything but in this particular example I need some help with Exalted.

A little background.

I'm currently only in three games throughout the week and while I'm waiting for my new Conan RPG system to arrive (in a couple of months), I took some suggestions from my players about what kind of game I could run or even just the system and go from here.

One system, unexpectedly, that I heard brought up was Exalted (2nd Edition but going to be reading through 3rd soon too) and I..wasn't against it. I have little to no experience with Exalted or White Wolf systems, pretty much all of it coming via play-by-post games on various forums and it initially soured me on them. The systems didn't seem well-adapted for a play-by-post format but the settings behind them seemed like they could be fun, so I wasn't against trying to run such a game for people equally new to everything Exalted. Should be fun, right? Over-the-top animesque action with a surreal landscape? Sign me up!

So before I get too far into the rules, I want to come up with a story seed that I can expand upon, but the...scope of Exalted is giving me a bit of trouble on this. It starts at a higher level and the setting itself is so big and strange that its a little difficult. I'm doing research into it, mind, but if I could focus that towards what I'll actually be using for this game that'd be very helpful! So what kind of beginner Solar Exalted stories make sense and fit the overall tone of the game? I want to make my players feel like...well...the badasses that the Exalted are but I struggle at times with the kind of tone Exalted normally aim for.

Any suggestions?

[Xuc Xac]

Don't make a story.

Exalted isn't about low level adventurers getting hired by quest givers to fetch doodads or kill the local goblins/bandits/beast-of-the-week. It's not about heroes hanging out until a villain shows up for them to foil.

Exalted characters should not be reacting to events as much as just acting. You present the world as it is and let them decide what parts they want to change. As the GM, just let your players try anything they want and you react to them.

Gilgamesh wasn't hired to kill the bull of heaven. It was bad for his kingdom so he went out to kill it.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Don't make a story.

Exalted isn't about low level adventurers getting hired by quest givers to fetch doodads or kill the local goblins/bandits/beast-of-the-week. It's not about heroes hanging out until a villain shows up for them to foil.

Exalted characters should not be reacting to events as much as just acting. You present the world as it is and let them decide what parts they want to change. As the GM, just let your players try anything they want and you react to them.

Gilgamesh wasn't hired to kill the bull of heaven. It was bad for his kingdom so he went out to kill it.

That's the thing, my players are as new to Exalted as I am and they are used to a bit more direction when it comes to TTRPGs.

Besides, how are you supposed to start a game without a story?

[Honest Tiefling]

That's the thing, my players are as new to Exalted as I am and they are used to a bit more direction when it comes to TTRPGs.

Besides, how are you supposed to start a game without a story?

Simple, give them a situation. They find a First Age Manse (I'm a bit rusty on Exalted Lore and I might have played first edition for all I know, but if I recall correctly, that would be a super-duper magical fortress sitting on a nexus of magical energy). But they aren't the only ones! So do they murder, recruit, intimidate, bind, or imprison their competition?

They wake up in jail. They can decide HOW they got there and the awesome battles that took place, but they're still imprisoned. So how do they break out?

There's a town, lacking in leadership while also lacking in a lack of monsters. The monsters will probably attack the players, but how would they feel about leaving this town to fend for themselves? Even if the townsfolk are helpful and perhaps considered resuming respecting the Unconquered Sun?

[Xuc Xac]

Just tell them upfront, "Nobody is going to hire you or give you a mission or send you on a quest. You don't need to kill rats with a dagger in the cellar of a local inn just to make enough money for a short sword so you can kill kobolds. This is not about leveling up from zero to hero. You're starting at the top. You have the power to change the world." Then tell them the current situation: which countries are at war (or are gearing up for it), which countries are doing things the PCs might not like (such as slavery or whatever), any looming threats, current crises (drought, famine, pestilence, embargo), and so on. Then let them stick their noses into whatever they want.

[Arbane]

"When all else fails, have ninjas attack."

Start the game off with something big - war's been declared, someone's discovered a First Age building that hasn't been looted yet, a god's shown up and is REALLY ANGRY about something, the Wyld Hunt is on the way, etc. Let the PCs react as they please.

[Hopeless]

Pick any scenario for any game you have and fancy running and then Exaltify it!

For example i have Exalted 1st edition ran a game where one player owned Howl's Moving Castle another ran a standard glaive wielding warrior the others i don't remember that well!
I had them fight some dragonblood (cut that out freaking spellchecker!😾) it was only after i reread the book that he was head of the Wyld Hunt and not intended to be used as part of a small group fighting 1 Solar Exalted!🙀

"Howl" simply cut one of his spare addresses and then had his home walk north so they could investigate signs of another Solar Exaltation before their enemies could catch up...

Think d&d then add extra steam punk!

[FatR]

Tip #1. Don't. It's a trap. The mechanics are aggressively awful, and the setting is pretty much "Here's a pitch for a cool game, what we're not telling you is that you'd have to write that game yourself."

Tip #2. If you decide to do so anyway, understand that you will have to write the entire game yourself, except perhaps if you decide to run Dragon-Blooded. 95+% of setting material as written is in a binary state for parties above Dragon-Blooded powerlevel: either PCs can't find any opposition worthy of rolling the dice, and no plot hooks that promise meaningful rewards, or they get crushed like bugs. A DnD-type playstyle where the party gradually acquires power to take on the Big Bad, while outwitting or outfighing his minions, is unworkable for Celestials and above. The best game you probably can make, and the only one for which the setting maybe offers a degree of actual support, is a character-driven melodrama, entirely about screwed-up relationships between the party and its various foes and rivals.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Alright...so my question now becomes, what sort of situations can beginner (and probably not particularly optimized) Exalted handle? This game was sold to my players partly on the grounds of what Xuc Xac said that you are starting off as bad asses and only grow my potent from there so I want to start them off strong.

Put them in a situation to make them feel like the biggest of badasses and slowly build to something that can present an honest challenge to them. I was thinking the Wyld Hunt catches up to them because of the shenanigans that they're likely to get up to, but is that too much for a group of four Solars? Never mind what the Wyld Hunt would actually send after a group of newly Exalted, that is a question for another time.

So what are some good, but relatively 'easy', beginning tasks that they could set out to do? Even with the 'reacting to the players approach' they're all pretty unfamiliar with the setting so I want to throw out some plot threads for them to follow if they so choose if they don't have an idea of what they want to do.

Dealing with local gods, a minor Faerie incursion, and some tyrannical Dynasts throwing their weight around seem like things that would be easy to resolve and make them feel awesome. Exploring and claiming a manse does as well but it also seems like that could pose dangers that would be more challenging. It seems like a good, self-contained story would be over-throwing the local god/Dynast, claim a Manse to secure their foothold of power, and then finish up by dealing with the Wyld Hunt (even if in reality it would be the first of many) coming after them.

[GrayDeath]

That's the thing, my players are as new to Exalted as I am and they are used to a bit more direction when it comes to TTRPGs.

Besides, how are you supposed to start a game without a story?

One of my standards involves the following starting Scenario:

The plyer characters all live on kerkeis (in a Town named Dark oaks I designed to be precise) in the west.
They`ve known each other for at the very least half a decade, some grew up together.

Start by letting the players talk over who and what they want to be as heroic mortals, let them decide how the stand to each other (but I usually demand that they either trust OR like each other, ideally both given the setup). Make some notes what type of exalted you and the player think would fit (or only you if the player is fine with that).

Now play one session to let them ease into using the system basics. Roll mechanism, virtues, etc.
And to familiarize with the Necks "Color COded" Tribes and strange society.

In Session 2 "Something bad" happens (usually I use a major pirate attack, no Lintha though, or a small realm expedition of renegade Low Power DB`s hunting for First Age Artifacts and torturing Citizens for info)).

And now be very observant how each Character reacts. Whatg methods he uses, if he evades or searches conflict, etc.

And let theme exalt at the exact moments they need it (or in Case of Abyssal right after ^^...or Infernal after the other managed to save the day by exalting). Transfer to the respective sheets, give them 4-8 Charms, let them choose the rest, go BIG!

Go on from there.

Worked very well 2 times and quite well once. Only the second try didn`t go smoothly, because 2 of the players were very Mucha gainst giving up that much of their Build Freedom".

[Hopeless]

Have you watched Scrapped Princess?
A Fantasy anime series from 2003 which may help you with this!

[FatR]

Alright...so my question now becomes, what sort of situations can beginner (and probably not particularly optimized) Exalted handle?

No sensible number of mortal humans is a threat in an open fight. Starting PCs can effortlessly take over most Threshold kindgoms, if they feel that they need a kingdom of mortals. As about Essence users... If you use official stats in any edition, the vast majority of Exalted NPCs of all types would be little more than punching bags to a party that basically just had enough sense to figure out that specialization=power in any White Wolf system ever. Wyld Hunt is only dangerous to Solaroids if you bring a lot of them, or if you write statblocks for them yourself. Of all commonly encountered foes, spirits are the most threatening to unoptimized PCs because of high base stats and relatively simple charmsets that are harder to screw up. Fey are like spirits, but weaker.



Put them in a situation to make them feel like the biggest of badasses and slowly build to something that can present an honest challenge to them. I was thinking the Wyld Hunt catches up to them because of the shenanigans that they're likely to get up to, but is that too much for a group of four Solars? Never mind what the Wyld Hunt would actually send after a group of newly Exalted, that is a question for another time.

Your best bet for a "not particularly optimized" party, unless you're resigned to writing all statblocks yourself from the start (note that in a campaign that runs long enough to start dealing with important stuff you'll have to do so anyway, sooner or later) is to center the plot around machinations of one of the more important regional gods.

[Mastikator]

That's the thing, my players are as new to Exalted as I am and they are used to a bit more direction when it comes to TTRPGs.

Besides, how are you supposed to start a game without a story?

Isn't "personal goal" an obligatory stat PCs need to have on their character sheet?

Tell them to have big personal goals, like huge stuff like "unite humanity against the fey" or "end slavery" or "peace between the solars and the dragonbloods".

And then actually try to do that. It'll be interesting to actually set up a goal and try to figure out how to make that happen, which- as solars, they can.

[Arbane]

No sensible number of mortal humans is a threat in an open fight. Starting PCs can effortlessly take over most Threshold kindgoms, if they feel that they need a kingdom of mortals.

You may be overselling them just a bit - not every PC is going to start out with the 'fight an army and win' charmset, and enough arrows incoming can wear down essence supplies pretty quickly.

[Kalmageddon]

So, I have a question about exalted and I might as well hitch a ride on this thread: is exalted supposed to be challenging or is it as escapist and power trippy as it seems?
Every time I've read about exalted, it's always to discuss how the PCs can do anything, be better than anything and so on, and, well, this makes it sound like exalted is the ultimate Mary Sue simulator.
Not very appealing to say the least. But I guess there's more to it than this?

[lightningcat]

I always put Exalted as the game that starts where a Final Fantasy game gets interesting. While it is plenty powertrippy, it can also be challenging. Creation is something like 5 times the size of Earth, and there are lots of things that can kill even powerful Exalts. There are also plenty of gamebreaking choices that PCs can make, but ...

The PCs need to have a goal. Preferable both a group goal and each one having a personal goal. These can be counter to each other.
One of the games I was in my character had the Motivation of Destroy House Mnemon. While the group goal was putting someone on the Scarlet Throne that wouldn't be a disaster for all of Creation (or more importantly for our Circle). The best choice for our group was Mnemon, my character's grandmother.
The game died before it got very far.

[Segev]

One approach is to ask your players to talk about their characters together. What are their goals? What, in particular, are their Motivations? (The M is capitalized because it is a thing they write on their stat page and which can regenerate Willpower for them when they work towards it.)

Ask them how they got their Backgrounds. See if there are plot hooks in those.

I will try to write more tonight, when I'm not on my phone. But the idea in Exalted is that the PCs can change the world. Ask them what they want it to become, and give them its current, less desirable state.

[Segev]

Okay, a little bit more detailed, and probably a lot more rambly. I'll start with a description of the game I started as a PbP but have just recently had the first session on IRC for.

It began with a big festival in a little town called Trademeet Dale, where one of the PCs had invested a lot of Background dots on various things because she's from there. They were celebrating her Exaltation as a Solar. (They're far enough in the East that they aren't immediately terrified that the Dynasty or the Seventh Legion will come down on them like a ton of bricks. That they have a god known as the Maharishi of Excellence who's been her mentor since before she Exalted helps.)

A Sidereal PC was sent to Trademeet to try to negotiate with their mercantile council to open up slave trading with the Guild; he's under orders to do this because there appears to be an unscheduled war brewing that's disrupting Fated plans for the region, and it seems centered around a lack of workers.

Meanwhile, farmers are not making it in for the festival when expected.

As the party investigated, they discovered that the neighboring kingdom was raiding their outlying villages and farms to "recruit" new serfs, because the beastmen in thrall to Ma Ha Sushi have been upping their slave-raids to the point that the kingdom was starving for workforce.

That was the setup; they discovered part of it through play. There's a lot more that's happened since, but you asked about starting. If you'd like a more detailed idea of "what's going on" behind the scenes, I'll put it in a spoiler box. If anybody reading this is in my Distant Echoes game, beware that reading this spoiler block will, well, spoil it.

What's going on is that the actual city father of Trademeet Dale is a very minor messenger god known as Calm Dasher, and he's exceptionally lazy. Trademeet started as a tiny waystation for relay-running messages back and forth along the Yanaze to Lookshy, and he is not happy with how it's grown in ways he feels he isn't getting proper credit for. Largely, in all honesty, because he's done nothing to help.

The Maharishi of Excellence is a dispossessed god of high-quality goods whose region was swallowed up by the Wyld during the Balorian Crusade, before the Scarlet Empress managed to turn it back. However, sick of divine welfare sucking on the scraps of ambrosia in Heaven, he decided it was better to make something of himself in Creation. He's never claimed to be Trademeet's City Father, and denies it when called such, but he's treading on thin ice by acting strictly within mortal capacity to run and advise others in running businesses.

Calm Dasher is jealous of the attention the Maharishi gets from "his" people, and has bargained with Rabszolga (god of slaves) to make Trademeet an even bigger metropolis by opening up slave trade that is, essentially, a cyclic scam wherein Trademeet skims money off of slaves being traded in and out of the region and eventually to Ma Ha Suchi's beastmen.

This actually is what's causing the war to brew, but Calm Dasher and Rabszolga have deliberately muddied the political waters and spread the notion that the slave trade business will soothe the economic pressures leading to it.

Meanwhile, the party is in an audience with Ma Ha Suchi and has learned that he's been ignoring an urgent invitation to a meeting in Heaven, signed by Chosen of both Mars and Venus, promising safe passage.

It's actually about an unrelated matter: the kingdom that was raiding them had a Solar founder who fought a war of terror against the Dragonblooded and Sidereals (being a Night Caste), and who wrested a Fate-bound treaty that no Dragonblooded would enter nor be Exalted in his kingdom. Forever. In return, he stopped his campaign.

Actions of the party - including the reincarnation of that Solar (not the same one who grew up in Trademeet) - have led to a Fate snarl allowing Dragonblooded Exaltations within that kingdom. These are being celebrated by the mortals...but it represents an emergency to the Sidereals, because it's wreaking havoc with Fate and rebounding Paradox all over the Loom. Since it's in Ma Ha Suchi's territory, they want him involved in planning the solution; the last thing they want is to have him make it worse by planning a solution that makes him get involved in a bad way.

The party could potentially journey to HEaven with that invitation to learn the rest of what's going on. Or they could go back to Trademeet and find that the Maharishi of Excellence is being summoned for trial - Calm Dasher is blaming / framing him for the emergency AND for the unscheduled war. Even if they don't go with him to Heaven for that, this should open up avenues for them to find out the parts they're nto aware of involving Yu Shan politics creating the troubles they're facing.

There are a few other things brewing, but that's the big setup for now.

...oh, and the reason that the Fate snarls are occurring is the Big Thing of my game: An alternate-timeline Creation is beginning to drift through the Wyld and its Fate-reaches are interfering with the Creation in which the party exists. This is the result of the horrific temporal weaponry that the Primordials and the Exalted wielded in the Primordial War. Time travel backwards is impossible...but technically, the game (as I'm running it) takes place in the future of the Primordial War, and this Creation is actually the active manifestation of a temporal weapon of the Exalted host attempting to force the Primordials' loss. The other Creation is one where the Primordials won, and is their defense against this temporal weapon.



Anyway, I think Exalted, more than any other system and setting I've played, begs to be run as a sandbox. A richly-detailed sandbox. Build a (or choose a well-defined) section to start the game in, and make it have Events happening that are going to cause friction and trouble. Hopefully - but don't count on this - your players will have goals that also will be setting-changing, and create their own friction. The game is much more about what you have and what you want to achieve than it is about "stop the BBEG."

That said, having a BBEG or half-dozen with major plans to thwart isn't a bad thing. Just...it'll probably work best if the BBEGs are just doing their thing, clashing where they clash with whomever they clash, and the PCs have the ability to learn about it and approach others involved and try to handle it however they want. Rather than having a specific plot of set events the party is to be at. Because Exalted...don't cooperate with those kinds of plans. They have powers that can reshape a narrative very rapidly. So don't have a narrative. Let that evolve from player action interfering with plans of the NPCs.

[JeenLeen]

In contrast to the majority of the advice given above, I recommend using a story. Don't be offended or bothered if the players 'go off the rails' to pursue their goals--that's great! But having a plot gives them guidelines and can help them get use to the system.

There are free--and, in my opinion, good--adventure modules out there. My work seems to block me from finding those websites now, but I remember them from before. I think one was 'Daughter of Nexus'. Another involved going to a town friendly to Solars while it was suffering a plague, then getting involved with a war in another town to help save the first one. A third (Return to the Tomb of...???) was also fun.

My DM tied them all together in one story via the following (I'll spoiler this since some spoilers for the modules):

First Mission (not a module, but a short intro to get used to the game): the PCs happen upon a town where everyone is hiding from the undead in the woods. Investigating leads you to discover a sorcerer god-blooded, trying to open a portal to the underworld.

For some reason, maybe a friendly merchant there from Nexus who wants to give a reward, go to Nexus. (Even better if a PC is from Nexus.)

Do Daughter of Nexus campaign, but add that the reason they want the Daughter is because she's the key to turning the Nexus into another deadlands, like... well, whatever city is basically a gateway to the underworld.

They hear of the town under plague and can go help. That turns out to be another attempt to open a portal to the underworld, either by a city of plague-victims or a city being destroyed by the undead. (Note near the end of this module you get some magic animal.)

Really modify the 'Return to the Tomb' module. Instead of going there to find your lost Circle-mate from a previous incarnation, go there because that's where you can sacrifice the animal to make the barrier between the underworld and the material world stronger. But the evil version of Exalted (Abyssal?) are also there, since an inversed ritual can do the opposite.

When the story ends, if you did well, you could be the new rulers of either the plague-city or the war-city.


There, epic story, made the world better, and won a city. Good short campaign or a prep for the party pursuing their goals now that they are more used to the world.

[Segev]

I suppose I should qualify the "don't have a story" advice: don't have a story where the PCs are cast in expected roles.

The story suggested by JeenLeen is very much of the "people are doing stuff that will cause harm; you can interfere if you care" variety.

[Grod_The_Giant]

In contrast to the majority of the advice given above, I recommend using a story. Don't be offended or bothered if the players 'go off the rails' to pursue their goals--that's great! But having a plot gives them guidelines and can help them get use to the system.
Yeah, I'm inclined to agree with this. Exalted is no different from any other RPG in that regard-- you can go full sandbox, full railroad, or anywhere in between. Don't overthink it; just run the same sort of game as you would normally for your group. Just... more mythic. Sprinkle legendary creatures and crazy sorcerers in more liberally, and amp all your descriptions up to 11.

And to be honest, at least from my experience of 3e Exalted*... the power scale isn't that crazy either. I mean, you can certainly be very good at your thing, but started 3e Exalts aren't much more than street level superhero strong, if that. I'd expect them to run roughshod over mortals at anything they care about, unless the mortals come at them in large numbers, but Creation is crawling with things that aren't mortals. Dragonblooded, demons, elementals, gods, ghosts, fey, oh my. Exalts are strong, but "there's always a bigger fish" is very much in keeping with the nature of the setting. Thinking of it in superhero terms is probably a decent way to do it, by the way. Give your players regular opportunities to show off their badassery by overwhelming weak opposition, then break out the magic when it comes time for an actual challenge.

And you can certainly fiddle with DCs and minion-battlegroup balance**, though I don't know if you should. A GM who's stingy with stunts and DCs can easily turn the game into... oh, mid-level D&D, let's say. (If I roll 3 successes on a Lore check, then according to the description of how to assign DCs I should accomplish something "which might daunt even heroes," not be told "you remember some mentions of the thing," damnit!)



*Don't play 2e, by the way. 2e Exalted is a huge, sprawling, clunky mess. Worse than 3.5 D&D, I'd say.
**I can't speak for certain, because I haven't played enough, but I suspect (as is often the case) that ten knights as individual combatants would be a lot more threatening than a ten-knight battlegroup. Seems to me that onslaught penalties (if not cancelled) and sheer action economy mean they'll drain your motes, initiative, and health track (in approximate order) quicker than you can kill them... meaning that you can very much dial the threat level of a fight in that regard.

[Segev]

In both 2E and 3E, massed troop rules usually make the troops less dangerous than they would be individually. Sadly.

2E is playable. Just be careful with combat if you're not ready to spam Perfect Defenses. And if you are, master the art of making victory conditions other than "kill the other side."

[Arbane]

In both 2E and 3E, massed troop rules usually make the troops less dangerous than they would be individually. Sadly.


They actually wrote the Law of Conservation of Ninjitsu into the system? :smallbiggrin:



2E is playable. Just be careful with combat if you're not ready to spam Perfect Defenses. And if you are, master the art of making victory conditions other than "kill the other side."

Making victory more than just 'kill the other side' is good advice in general.

[Segev]

They actually wrote the Law of Conservation of Ninjitsu into the system? :smallbiggrin:Not intentionally, sadly. 2E has a mass combat system that is facetiously (but not entirely inaccurately) described as "wearing your army." The mass of troops you personally command and lead into battle are calculated out for number and general skill and discipline (as well as some fudge factors for unusual prowess - like if they're Dragonblooded instead of mortals, or if they're all minotaurs, or something), and then they become bonuses to your combat stats (and extra health levels, because your army has to be whittled away before you can be affected directly). In theory, you're leading them in a massive battle against other mass battle units. In practice, the mechanics are very close to what you do without an army at your back.

Good in some situations, but annoyingly, if you have anything that isn't so weak it can't affect the enemy individually, you're probably going to get more mileage out of the action deficit of a large number of individuals, especially since the way mass combat plays out, you're losing potentially dozens of soldiers to each attack when you have a huge army, but it'd be a lot harder to kill that many that quickly in normal combat.

In 3e, they did away with "you wear them," but they still convert groups into "combat blobs," making them single entities. The idea is similar: reduce the amount of rolling by making the large number of combatants working (at least loosely) as a unit into one "bigger" threat rather than numerous "smaller" threats. Unfortunately, it's almost always better to have the individual combatants, because the "combined" blob gets taken out much more easily by fewer attacks, and doesn't get to attack as often as the individuals would. It does more damage, but not enough more.

Good efforts, and I can't fault them for not coming up with better because I've tried, myself, and failed each time. But they are ultimately unsatisfying.


Making victory more than just 'kill the other side' is good advice in general.Indeed!

The major flaw in 2E combat is two-sided:

1) It is very easy to, just making some reasonable-seeming choices for a bruiser build, to design something that will, on a moderately good hit, one-shot most PCs of even moderate XP levels. Damage numbers can be simply enormous compared to the 7-10 health levels that most PCs will have.

2) The answer to this for most PCs is what's termed a "paranoia combo" by Exalted equivalents of our optimization experts for D&D 3.PF on these boards. A paranoia combo is a suite of Charms that includes at least an ability to negate surprise attacks (so you can always activate defenses) and a Perfect Defense Charm. Perfect Defenses are a specific system term: they always work. A perfect dodge dodges literally anything that requires hitting you to hurt you. A perfect parry can parry literally any attack, no matter how ludicrous this seems, that would be able to do you physical harm. A perfect soak lets you simply ignore any effect which would cause you to take damage. These are typically instantaneous, so you have to keep using them against each new source and can't generally rely on them against constant sources of harm, but...well, you get the idea.

In fact, anything that says it bypasses defenses or can't be defended against still loses to a perfect defense, because the doctrine for unstoppable forces vs. immovable objects in Exalted 2E is that whatever is doing the defending wins. There are a number of philosophical and game design reasons for this, but it means there is no arms race between "more perfect" attacks and "even more perfect" defenses and "still perfecter x3 attacks," etc.


It's (2) that makes Exalted 2E really REQUIRE the notion that people are fighting for a purpose other than to simply wipe out the other side.

Even if it's only the PCs that are using perfect defenses, you can make a group of mortal bandits challenging by having their goal be, well, theft. If they get away with raiding the caravan the PCs are guarding (as an example), it doesn't matter if they killed the PCs.

The PCs might get to feel badass for ignoring any harm these bandits might try to do to them, but if the bandits get what they came for, the PCs might still feel it a loss. (And, if they don't, it's questionable why the fight was happening in the first place, since if the PCs don't feel like they lost, why would they have fought the bandits to prevent the bandits' goal?)

So yes, this is good design advice in general for conflicts, but it's almost necessary in Exalted 2E, because of the flaws in the combat system.

It's not entirely unworkable, the way some would characterize it, but the flaws are real, and you should be conscious of them so you can work around them if you're using the system.

[GrayDeath]

One needs to add that every single perfect defense has at least 2 inpuilt weaknesses.

First of no perfect defense can defend against an attack undefendable ith that defense (your perfect parry does not help against an attack that cannot be parried for example) and a ... philosophical vulnerability called "Flaws of Invulnerability".

These come in different colors for different Exalteds.

For Example Cecelynes Perfect Defense works. Unless the thing you defend against has 2 or more points opf permanent Essence more than you.

Or the Solars Perfect Soak works ... unless he is acting against his Motivation.

You get the picture.

More generally though, yes, paranoya-Combat is a thing, but saying Exalted 2nd is more of a sprawling emss than FULL D&D 3.5 is wrong.
its merely much easier to get too powerful for "Enter Attempted level" than in D&D ^^


But I agree. If you annot come up with a unifying flavour/compatible Playing philosophies it can hange to "mindless powercreep" pretty easily.

[The_Snark]

So, I have a question about exalted and I might as well hitch a ride on this thread: is exalted supposed to be challenging or is it as escapist and power trippy as it seems?
Every time I've read about exalted, it's always to discuss how the PCs can do anything, be better than anything and so on, and, well, this makes it sound like exalted is the ultimate Mary Sue simulator.
Not very appealing to say the least. But I guess there's more to it than this?

It can be played that way, certainly, but it doesn't have to be, and I don't think that's the authors' intent. There are two ways in which the game can challenge you.

The first is to scale up the antagonists. The PCs are superpowered demigods, yes, but they're not the only ones: there are hundreds if not thousands of others out there, some of whom have been doing this for thousands of years. The setting also contains plenty of mythical monsters, demons, ancient evils trapped beneath the earth, and so on. Basically, if your party consists of Hercules, Gilgamesh and Thor, don't expect to challenge them with bandits; challenge them with dragons, giants and angry gods.

The second involves moral dilemmas, political scenarios, and the like; it's not about what the players can do, but what they should do. If you throw your players at a kingdom ruled by an evil tyrant, defeating him is pretty straightforward. If you throw your players at a kingdom which recently overthrew an evil tyrant, but now finds itself wracked by unrest, ethnic strife and the threat of civil war, with neither side being the clear bad guy... that's trickier. Fixing the world remains a hugely difficult task, even with superpowers. Look to real-world issues for inspiration.

(These two methods are by no means mutually exclusive.)

[Kalmageddon]

Ok I see how that could be fun. Next question: has anyone here actually played Exalt this way? Or is it one of those games that "in theory" can be something cool but in practice almost never end up being played that way, because it would be way too much effort?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Ok I see how that could be fun. Next question: has anyone here actually played Exalt this way? Or is it one of those games that "in theory" can be something cool but in practice almost never end up being played that way, because it would be way too much effort?
I've never played or seen it played in the memetic, "I throw the moon at him!" way. Maybe it gets that insane at high Essence levels, or high optimization or something, but I've never experienced that sort of crazy high-power gonzo stuff. We were strong, yes, and we needed similarly magic beings to challenge us, but that was it.

[Delta]

So, I have a question about exalted and I might as well hitch a ride on this thread: is exalted supposed to be challenging or is it as escapist and power trippy as it seems?
Every time I've read about exalted, it's always to discuss how the PCs can do anything, be better than anything and so on, and, well, this makes it sound like exalted is the ultimate Mary Sue simulator.
Not very appealing to say the least. But I guess there's more to it than this?

In my experience: It's both. Yes, it's power trippy, that's intentional. You don't have to fear that little band of outlaws hiding in the woods, they're just an opportunity to show your newborn Solars how awesome they are. At the same time, in my experience (which has been mostly 1e, admittedly) there's no shortage whatsoever of challenging things to throw at the PCs. The power trippy part comes when your players realize that the things that used to challenge them in other games aren't really challenging anymore, but the game world has more than enough other challenges to make up for that.

[Segev]

One needs to add that every single perfect defense has at least 2 inpuilt weaknesses.Er, no, just one: the flaw of invulnerability (which you do mention).


First of no perfect defense can defend against an attack undefendable ith that defense (your perfect parry does not help against an attack that cannot be parried for example)This is flat-out incorrect, I'm afraid. Any of the perfect defenses will say they can be used against even attacks that are un(whatever)able.

The Solar perfect dodge, Seven Shadow Evasion, says explicitly that it perfectly dodges even undodgeable attacks. The Solar perfect Parry, Heaven Guardian Defense, explicitly states that it perfectly parries even unblockable attacks. The Solar perfect soak, Adamant Skin Technique, states that it perfectly soaks even unsoakable damage. And, because the doctrine of 2E Exalted is that defense wins in Unstoppable Force/Immovable Object conflicts (oft abbreviated in forum discussions to UF/IO), no amount of "this attack is unblockable, even to effects that say they block unblockable effects" can override that Heaven Guardian Defense is able to parry absolutely anything.


and a ... philosophical vulnerability called "Flaws of Invulnerability".Indeed. But while these were intended as actual balance factors, in practice they're best treated as flavor, because you WILL see the players working to minimize them. It only makes sense that they would; their characters would also do the same. While you might occasionally have a foe who deliberately (whether consciously on his part, or "coincidentally" in-game but by your intentional contrivance) exploits these flaws, doing it even occasionally is risky, given the problem (1) I named before - potential for unintentionally high lethality.

You're much better off holding such situations as MAD threats rather than as something you actually spring in combat as a way to make the defense unexpectedly fail. The player - and his PC - should KNOW that he's in a situation where his Perfect Defense will fail. And that should be something that puts him in a bind, because he now has to worry about a single hit killing him.

As a secondary note, players can take two different perfect defenses of different types (a perfect dodge and a perfect soak are not uncommon) with different flaws of invulnerability, making it nearly impossible to hit both flaws at the same time.

So while you can exploit flaws of invulnerability from time to time to make things interesting, don't count on it and certainly don't strive to do so with any regularity. You're far better off making it so that, "So, I can't actually hurt you, but how does that help you keep me from my actual goal?" is the question of the conflict.

This is important because, honestly, most of the time, if somebody is in a fight...they're in it because they want something badly enough to fight for it, and the other side wants to keep them from it badly enough to try to stop them. Why the other side wants to stop them, or what the first side wants, should be what drives the battle. And thus, even if neither can hurt the other, there becomes some other contest over what they're trying to achieve.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Hmm,kay, lots of important things to note...but now I have two real big questions more so to do with actual rules.

How big an improvement is 3rd Edition over 2nd?

Is the Scroll of Errata really as necessary as I've heard it is? What does it fix in the core book? With just the core book and Solar, all it seems to 'fix' is removing limitations on choices during character creation and clarify some stuff. Am I missing something or is it primarily essential for other types of Exalted/later chapters?

[Segev]

The Scroll of Errata is, mercifully, free. If you use Raksha, I STRONGLY recommend it. If you don't, it's helpful for the changes it makes, but it is a LOT of extra cruft to the system to make the fixes, so I wouldn't worry too strenuously about it unless you find that your combats are broken, unbalanced, and so much so that they're not fun. There are options in it, but it's up to you.


3e's biggest improvement, in my opinion, is the combat system. It's truly innovative and yields much more satisfying results for typical RPG combat done in an Exalted, dramatic scale. (I have already noted its mass combat rules leave something to be desired.)

Its social system also has some improvements, though it's not quite "there" yet. The social system is probably the easiest to meld back into a 2E game if you wanted to "test" something from one while working in the other.

Its crafting system....is a good try. But holy cow did it mess up any crafting archetype other than the guy who is focused on it as his nervous tick and OCD obsession. Also, its charm tree is out of control in size.

2E will generally have more support, since only the core book is out for 3E, but other than crafting, 3E should be fairly newbie-friendly, I think.

[Grod_The_Giant]

3e's biggest improvement, in my opinion, is the combat system. It's truly innovative and yields much more satisfying results for typical RPG combat done in an Exalted, dramatic scale. (I have already noted its mass combat rules leave something to be desired.)

Its social system also has some improvements, though it's not quite "there" yet. The social system is probably the easiest to meld back into a 2E game if you wanted to "test" something from one while working in the other.

Its crafting system....is a good try. But holy cow did it mess up any crafting archetype other than the guy who is focused on it as his nervous tick and OCD obsession. Also, its charm tree is out of control in size.

2E will generally have more support, since only the core book is out for 3E, but other than crafting, 3E should be fairly newbie-friendly, I think.
I'll second that. Combat is a blast, but jesus christ is the Craft bad in this edition. There are over 50 Craft charms, and the vast majority of them seem to be ridiculously finicky. I think the best suggestion I've seen was to scrap the crafting rules entirely and use the looser Sorcererous Workings rules instead. (Which would also let you cross off a lot of those ridiculous crafting-xp-manipulation charms.)

(There's a decent bit of bloat in a lot of the Charmsets, sadly. Probably my biggest complaint with the system-- it's not just the Craft set that could have been cut down 50% or more)

[The_Snark]

Ok I see how that could be fun. Next question: has anyone here actually played Exalt this way? Or is it one of those games that "in theory" can be something cool but in practice almost never end up being played that way, because it would be way too much effort?

I have, yeah. Like Grod says, I think fan discussion tends to emphasize the over-the-top-superpowers more than most games do.


Is the Scroll of Errata really as necessary as I've heard it is? What does it fix in the core book? With just the core book and Solar, all it seems to 'fix' is removing limitations on choices during character creation and clarify some stuff. Am I missing something or is it primarily essential for other types of Exalted/later chapters?

The most important change the Scroll of Errata makes is tossing out 90% of combo rules. I highly recommend using that part if nothing else, it's a huge improvement to the game. Unless one like needing to pay extra XP to use the abilities you've already purchased, and make annoying trade-offs between being able to use a new ability now and saving XP later, and generally jump through irritating hoops when using Charms.

Other important changes include the changes to stunts, stunt rewards, and the cost of perfect defenses; these go hand-in-hand and change the way combat works significantly. I prefer the post-errata version, personally, since it de-emphasizes the "buy a perfect defense and use it against every attack" strategy, but I know people who liked the pre-errata rules.

The social rules got some less crucial but still important tweaks; most importantly, the Willpower cost to resist mental influence now scales up with the influence-er's threshold successes. Some Solar Charms also got significant changes, mostly for the better.

In general, I think most of the Scroll of Errata is an improvement, but it can be annoying to have to cross-reference everything, especially if you're new to the system. (I actually prefer 2E-with-errata-and liberal-houserules over 3E, but 3E is typically more friendly to new players/GMs.)

[Callos_DeTerran]

The most important change the Scroll of Errata makes is tossing out 90% of combo rules. I highly recommend using that part if nothing else, it's a huge improvement to the game. Unless one like needing to pay extra XP to use the abilities you've already purchased, and make annoying trade-offs between being able to use a new ability now and saving XP later, and generally jump through irritating hoops when using Charms.

Other important changes include the changes to stunts, stunt rewards, and the cost of perfect defenses; these go hand-in-hand and change the way combat works significantly. I prefer the post-errata version, personally, since it de-emphasizes the "buy a perfect defense and use it against every attack" strategy, but I know people who liked the pre-errata rules.

Okay...could you describe how the combo rules work when using Scroll of Errata? I want to make sure that I'm understanding it right. I know it does away with the Willpower cost of using combos...

[TheCountAlucard]

You also don't have to pay XP to develop Combos per the Scroll of Errata, and can develop them on the fly. So let's say I buy Leaping Dodge Method, and suddenly a Sidereal jumps out of a teacup and attacks me; I can declare a Combo of Reflex Sidestep Technique, Seven Shadow Evasion, and Leaping Dodge Method to simultaneously negate the surprise, defend against the attack, and then get outta there.

That said, I vastly prefer Ex3 to 2e, and while I don't intend to make this (another!) Craft thread, it was my understanding that the plethora of Charms is primarily there to permit a plethora of crafter archetypes, not that a crafter should necessarily try and take all of them. (In fact, unless your intention is to grind out Major+ craft projects routinely, you probably can stop at ~5 Charms.)

[The_Snark]

Okay...could you describe how the combo rules work when using Scroll of Errata? I want to make sure that I'm understanding it right. I know it does away with the Willpower cost of using combos...

Mostly, it means you ignore the combo rules. The only part that still matters are the keywords: a Charm with the Combo-OK keyword imposes no restrictions on when you can use it, a Combo-Basic Charm can't be used alongside any non-reflexive Charm, and a Charm that doesn't have either keyword prevents you from using any other Charm on that action.

[GrayDeath]

Mechanically 3rd is a vast Improvement over 2nd, hell yes. Aside from Crafting being much worse (granted it was, with the support books, too good in 2nd, but now it shucks) and some quirks with the new social system. Given the old one was grand but horribly unbalanced (a theme^^) not that bad.

it however, for those Oldtimers like me, does not really feel the same way ... EXALTED I guess.

But the Fluff changes, as far as seen and heard so far, are .... horrible.

IF you like 2nd`s fluff that is. ;)


@ perfect Defenses: OK, somehow I remembered a preset of "is only applicable against attacks that can be dodged to begin with". I know that they trump attacks that have "perfect" added to them, in whatever way.

But somehow I remembered it along these lines: You cannot, for example, parry AOE attacks, no matter what. You can however parry an attack augmented with a charm that SHOULD make it unable to be parried.

Clearer what I meant? Dont have my books here so I cannot recheck atm, but thats how we alwys played it.


But yeah, if your Character invests in 4 different perfect defenses with 4 different flaws, he is ridicolously hard to affect in combat, as long as he has the essence. Which is good, after all he spent at the least 12 charms to do so. ;)

[Callos_DeTerran]

Seeing a lot of suggestions for Exalted 3rd edition which kinda works since one of my players is getting that book before we'll get a chance to play anyway. And if its more newbie friendly, that is a major plus in my books even if it currently lacks the ability to play anything besides Solars right now.

How did the fluff change between editions though? Cause I've read in a couple reviews that one of the big problems was the fluff didn't really change all that much between 2nd and 3rd while the same player getting 3rd edition plays in a game of it and says that the game still takes place shortly after the Scarlet Empress disappeared.

Is anything mechanics-wise in 3rd Edition tied to the fluff or could I just use the 2nd Edition fluff that I've already begun to memorize?

[GrayDeath]

As far as I remeber (didn`t buy 3rd, other priorities) some stuff (especially the upcoming Infernals) will be heavily changed based on the new fluff.
Since I loved the old Infernals and their fluff (not necessarily that of the Signature Infernals, mind^^) thats a big downer for me.

Same if less so goes for Abyssals, a friend of mine who`s much more into them than me assures me.

Lunars get it better though (for which it was damn time!).

if these dont play a roll in your long term plans (they are after all not out yet) I see no reason not to play 3rd with 2nd`s Fluff.

[TheCountAlucard]

How did the fluff change between editions though?The biggest difference is that everything's not being aggressively mapped out and explained, allowing a few mysteries to remain.

The second important difference is that the 90's-comic-book "edginess" and "cynicism" seems to have been dialed down somewhat. There's no intention of returning to the 2e days in which a brothel run by ghosts moliates male ghost rapists into female shape to be raped by the clientele is detailed, or distressing illustrations of canon characters getting raped get included in a "titillating" April Fools Day supplement. :smallyuk:

Yes, those happened. :sigh:

The next biggest single change is the setting itself, the map of which has been adjusted for more diverse terrain to make its way in. Less people are assumed to have an exhaustive understanding of the setting metaphysics or the secret histories of the ancient world. Gods aren't written from the assumption of acting as the programming of every object and concept in the world, where a tree-god is informed by the ax-god that a lumberjack is using the ax-god's ax to cut down the tree-god's tree and so the tree-god should tell its tree to fall down now (and subsequently mortals can tap into this network via thaumaturgic cheat codes obtained with study to work minor miracles); instead the gods are, y'know, gods.

[FatR]

So, I have a question about exalted and I might as well hitch a ride on this thread: is exalted supposed to be challenging or is it as escapist and power trippy as it seems?
Every time I've read about exalted, it's always to discuss how the PCs can do anything, be better than anything and so on, and, well, this makes it sound like exalted is the ultimate Mary Sue simulator.
Not very appealing to say the least. But I guess there's more to it than this?

Exalted's entire schtick, as a game system, is peddling itself, and all elements within itself, as being X and not-X at the same time. So PCs are both turbogod Mary Sues who can do anything and change the world from the get-go, and insignificant insects whom anyone truly important in the world can crush with their little finger. Depending on what makes the game look better to potential customers in a specific discussion, really.

See, that's one of the more fundamental reasons why I've said above that in Exalted every GM needs to write his own game. And then you have to hope that the game you wrote at least roughly matches one that more involved players constructed for themselves. One of my longest-running campaigns, and not accidentally the last I've ever ran using Exalted, broke precisely because the differences between these different games, including the exact level of effortless powetripping that should be involved, gradually became irreconcilable.



So while you can exploit flaws of invulnerability from time to time to make things interesting, don't count on it and certainly don't strive to do so with any regularity. You're far better off making it so that, "So, I can't actually hurt you, but how does that help you keep me from my actual goal?" is the question of the conflict.

This is important because, honestly, most of the time, if somebody is in a fight...they're in it because they want something badly enough to fight for it, and the other side wants to keep them from it badly enough to try to stop them. Why the other side wants to stop them, or what the first side wants, should be what drives the battle. And thus, even if neither can hurt the other, there becomes some other contest over what they're trying to achieve.

This would have sounded much more reasonable if the mission statement of every hostile faction actually worth caring about after you get a Paranoia suite was not "We want to kill you, yes, you personally - and possibly the whole world as well".

[Delta]

(especially the upcoming Infernals)

I'd like to note that to refer to Infernals as "upcoming" is slightly more optimistic than to refer to a potential sequel to a sequel to the next Song of Ice & Fire installment as "coming soon". I'd be honestly shocked if we see an Infernals book within the next decade or so.

[GrayDeath]

True.

Which, combined with the fact that paranoia combat does not necessarily have to be that bad/allpresent (and my fears ragarding further fluff crap) makes me stay with 2nd.

[Segev]

Exalted's entire schtick, as a game system, is peddling itself, and all elements within itself, as being X and not-X at the same time. So PCs are both turbogod Mary Sues who can do anything and change the world from the get-go, and insignificant insects whom anyone truly important in the world can crush with their little finger. Depending on what makes the game look better to potential customers in a specific discussion, really.I don't think it ever tries to peddle itself as the latter. There are, unfortunately, writers who wanted their favored NPCs to be such god-mode sues that it would be foolish for the PCs to dare consider opposing them, but Exalted has always been sold on the concept that, even if there might be some threats too strong to take on, personally, right this second, depending on your build...you're an Exalt, and you can find a way to take them down that doesn't involve begging the ST for macguffins of power that lead to downfall.

You can have the power to build and destroy civilizations. You can have the know-how to build world-shaking Artifacts. You can have the acumen to manipulate plucky mortal heroes into taking action to fulfill your plan. You might even be able to orchestrate it so that they have a chance of surviving, rather than merely dying in a way that advances your agenda. You can have the combat prowess to be an unstoppable Invincible Sword Princess who destroys anything she chooses.

You probably can't do all of these, certainly not at chargen, so challenges for the Invincible Sword Princess might amount to figuring out how to FIND the right person to chop to smithereens to end slavery in her area of the world, while the social manipulator might need to build an entire empire to stand against the threat of the terrifyingly insane Elder Exalt out to destroy civilization.

But you're absolutely not an "insignificant insect whom anyone truly important in the world can crush with their little finger." The fact that they mobilize squads of Terrestrial Exalted in the Wyld Hunt to chase you down is indicative of how serious a threat you are...and if you do it right, those Wyld Hunts are pulling out all the stops to merely challenge you.


See, that's one of the more fundamental reasons why I've said above that in Exalted every GM needs to write his own game. And then you have to hope that the game you wrote at least roughly matches one that more involved players constructed for themselves. One of my longest-running campaigns, and not accidentally the last I've ever ran using Exalted, broke precisely because the differences between these different games, including the exact level of effortless powetripping that should be involved, gradually became irreconcilable.That's always an issue, in any game. I will not presume to guess where you draw the line between "acceptable PC action" and "effortless powertripping," but it's hardly a problem exclusive to Exalted.


This would have sounded much more reasonable if the mission statement of every hostile faction actually worth caring about after you get a Paranoia suite was not "We want to kill you, yes, you personally - and possibly the whole world as well".
Oh, sure. But just because they want to kill you, personally, doesn't mean they can't go about it in ways other than challenging you to a head-on fight. And when they also want to destroy the whole world as well, that's exactly the kind of "just being unkillable, yourself, isn't enough" situation I'm talking about.


Edit: As an example, a Lunar antagonist was killing mortals for reasons that the PC involved in the scene thought unacceptable, so he launched into an attack on her, trying to drive her off. She executed a martial arts Charm that let her substitute another target for herself, causing the PC to fatally wound a mortal with his attack intended for her. She probably couldn't have hurt him any more than he could hurt her, directly, but that swiftly caused him to give up trying to fight her directly. His goal was to protect the mortals, not to save himself or even necessarily to kill her. He thus wasn't able to rely on perfect defenses to ensure he "couldn't lose" the fight. Even if they worked, well, perfectly, he still felt that fight a loss because he couldn't figure out a way to drive her off. (She didn't slaughter everyone, but she killed more than he'd have liked. It was a PC loss without removing the PC from the game. And despite the PC feeling awful, the player didn't feel his character any less a hero despite the failure.)

[Morty]

In 3e, they did away with "you wear them," but they still convert groups into "combat blobs," making them single entities. The idea is similar: reduce the amount of rolling by making the large number of combatants working (at least loosely) as a unit into one "bigger" threat rather than numerous "smaller" threats. Unfortunately, it's almost always better to have the individual combatants, because the "combined" blob gets taken out much more easily by fewer attacks, and doesn't get to attack as often as the individuals would. It does more damage, but not enough more.

Good efforts, and I can't fault them for not coming up with better because I've tried, myself, and failed each time. But they are ultimately unsatisfying.


That's the whole point, though. Ten opponents in a battle group are intended to be less of a threat than ten opponents tracked individually. The purpose of battle groups is to make numerous opponents manageable, not threatening. Or to let them participate without being Initiative farms.

[TheCountAlucard]

…and my fears ragarding further fluff crap… makes me stay with 2nd.In what way could 3e's fluff be worse than, say, Lillun?

[Segev]

That's the whole point, though. Ten opponents in a battle group are intended to be less of a threat than ten opponents tracked individually. The purpose of battle groups is to make numerous opponents manageable, not threatening. Or to let them participate without being Initiative farms.

Perhaps, but it shatters verisimilitude when adding a third person to a duo of guards - which is enough to argue for making them a battlegroup - makes them go from "moderate threat" to "pushover."

And even if you say, "Well, don't do it at 3," it only compounds the problem when you finally do switch over.

Besides, it shouldn't be making them "manageable" in the sense that it's now easier for one person to take them all on. It should be making them "manageable" in the sense that the ST can manage the group more easily than the myriad individuals. While, ideally, still representing the same reasonable challenge. This is...not easy to do.

[Mechalich]

In what way could 3e's fluff be worse than, say, Lillun?

Exalted 3e's problem with fluff is, at present, the general absence thereof. Since everything except the extremely broad historical outline was redone, there's very little information about anything in the setting. Additionally, the map was already too big and they made it worse by making the map much larger. There's something like 70 named locations on the 3e map in total, and that same map has twice the land area of planet Earth. As a result everything is hundreds of miles from everything else. Most of the named locations that get described in the corebook have a short paragraph to their name and nothing more.

So if you want to run Exalted 3e you have to build basically everything from the ground up.

[Morty]

Perhaps, but it shatters verisimilitude when adding a third person to a duo of guards - which is enough to argue for making them a battlegroup - makes them go from "moderate threat" to "pushover."

And even if you say, "Well, don't do it at 3," it only compounds the problem when you finally do switch over.

Besides, it shouldn't be making them "manageable" in the sense that it's now easier for one person to take them all on. It should be making them "manageable" in the sense that the ST can manage the group more easily than the myriad individuals. While, ideally, still representing the same reasonable challenge. This is...not easy to do.

If the two guards are supposed to be a "moderate threat", don't make them into a battle group. Just run three of them. It's the question of "are those guards supposed to be an actual factor, or just something for the hero to barrel through?".

It is difficult to make a single mechanical entity the same kind of threat as several mechanical entities, because of action economy. And that's not that battle groups do. One could argue they do the exact opposite, by allowing heroes to fight off many opponents without getting bogged down in onslaught penalties.

Of course, at some point they do, in fact, make enemies more threatening. An experienced Exalted fighter can easily wreck a mortal soldier, and get a lot of Initiative. Battle groups don't give Initiative, so attacking them is a trade-off if you've also got individual characters to worry about.

[GrayDeath]

In what way could 3e's fluff be worse than, say, Lillun?

Simple.

Liliun is one single, tastelss thing you can easily replace by hanging the Infernal Exaltations to a particular living Tower in (but not OF) Malfeas. Or another solution to your liking (she might even fit, if you`re going for a rather massive "otherworldy Horror" Theme.....
But redoing all the fleshed out stuff (which is for one a LOT and secondly mostly good) with ... scarcely anything but hints (The Infernals are only stopgap measures, there will be another kind of Infernal Exalted/making the most interesting Conceptually and charmwise, Exalted a ... aborted child)

They also invented a lot of new, totally unnecessary, Exalted Types....then didn`t get to fleshing out anything.

So a lot of "Change for Changes sake" without any depth.

[Segev]

Additionally, the map was already too big and they made it worse by making the map much larger. There's something like 70 named locations on the 3e map in total, and that same map has twice the land area of planet Earth. As a result everything is hundreds of miles from everything else. Most of the named locations that get described in the corebook have a short paragraph to their name and nothing more.

So if you want to run Exalted 3e you have to build basically everything from the ground up.I don't really see this as a problem. Part of the issue with 2E was the tendency to fill up all the interesting space with pre-defined things. It started to choke out the world for any space to do something interesting when all the "interesting" things were seemingly close-by. It didn't help that the terrains were quite homogenous in huge swaths of area.

The deliberate expansion of the map was to flesh out larger border regions with more interesting features, and to give the pre-established points-of-interest space to be their own things without having direct interaction with a dozen neighboring pre-established powers. With the increate variation in terrain and environment, the whole thing gives more room to inspire "hooks" for STs' own setting stuff.

You might say that means the ST has to build it from the ground up, but in truth, he doesn't. If he doesn't want to, there are still a bunch of pre-established "things" he could center his game around. He just has excuse not to have four other "things" impinging on it now. (And, if he WANTS them to, he can introduce fast-travel capabilities to bring things closer together.)


Liliun is one single, tastelss thing you can easily replace by hanging the Infernal Exaltations to a particular living Tower in (but not OF) Malfeas. Or another solution to your liking (she might even fit, if you`re going for a rather massive "otherworldy Horror" Theme.....The one Infernal I've played actually had Lillun as the focus of his Motivation: he wanted to rescue her from her current state, and was going to manipulate, conquer, and coerce the Raksha into teaching him how to Shape things to do so. He'd then kidnap her from Hell, take her to a Wyld Zone (or the Wyld proper), and guide her through a Shaping Power-Quest to mutate her back into the beautiful and mentally healthy princess he just KNEW she should be. And then bring her back to be the proper princess of hell. If she wanted to.

...no, he wasn't planning on ruining her utility as a storage place for the Exaltations. Just make her healthy and happy. He's a Fiend, after all.

But leaving options for STs is probably better from a setting design standpoint. "What the Yozis use to store their stolen Exaltations is a closely-guarded secret. Rumors include Lillun, a Celestial-Exaltation-like selection process that binds them to Chosen first-circle demons which then become the Coadjutators, a terrible tree in the heart of Malfeas from which the Exaltations seem to grow like poison fruits, and a mockery of Lytek's vault overseen by a second circle soul of one of the five conspirators." Or something.



They also invented a lot of new, totally unnecessary, Exalted Types....then didn`t get to fleshing out anything.I agree that they seem overly-eager to expand the Exalted types just to include "cool things" that don't seem to have place in the setting. I'll not fault them for failure to expand on these questionable types, however, because that is clearly intended for expanded books.

I think they're falling flat in terms of running this like a business model, however, so we're unlikely to see such books.


So a lot of "Change for Changes sake" without any depth.With or without depth, change for change's sake is frustrating at best, and often turns out to be just plain detrimental.

[Grod_The_Giant]

But redoing all the fleshed out stuff (which is for one a LOT and secondly mostly good) with ... scarcely anything but hints (The Infernals are only stopgap measures, there will be another kind of Infernal Exalted/making the most interesting Conceptually and charmwise, Exalted a ... aborted child)
I kind of have to disagree on this front. I absolutely despise settings like Forgotten Realms or 2e Exalted where there are books upon books of detailed information about every town, every character, every blade of grass. Having an established setting is a great jumping-off point, especially when it means that players can come in with a good understanding of the basics, but too much can choke a game to death. GMs can feel like they're hemmed in by cannon, players by god-tier NPCs, and then you start running into problems when some people in the group know the setting better than others... (Player > GM is especially bad, but player > player is bad too; it's easy to feel isolated in such a case, as I discovered to my sorrow in my first Exalted campaign)

I was really impressed by Ex3's setting chapter, because it managed to be marvelously evocative without being stifling. It was full of things that made me say "ooh, I want to go there!" but nothing that would take more than a minute to explain to my players. Enough inspiration to kick off a game, but not so much as to choke it.

(Not to mention that saying "you don't need these fifty books worth of setting info anymore" makes a lot amount of sense when trying to start a new edition.)

I'll absolutely agree that the new Exalt types were probably unnecessary, though it might have made marketing-sense to have things they could point to and say "this is new! Buy the new edition!" And... I guess I can see a use for Exigents, in that you can create relevant opposition without having to drag in Dragonblooded (and, thus, the Realm) or numerically-limited full Exalts.

[Morty]

Exigents serve as a really good illustration of the notion that Creation is a big, wondrous place, where weird things happen. Same goes for the new Exalted, but Exigents offer an opportunity to create an Exalted-level PC or NPC who doesn't fit into the existing splats, but also doesn't completely carry the implications a new full-sized splat does.

[Mechalich]

I don't really see this as a problem. Part of the issue with 2E was the tendency to fill up all the interesting space with pre-defined things. It started to choke out the world for any space to do something interesting when all the "interesting" things were seemingly close-by. It didn't help that the terrains were quite homogenous in huge swaths of area.

The idea that 2e was anywhere close to 'filling up the map' is a blatant lie proffered by people who can't read map scales. The 2e map was huge and still mostly empty. Even in the Scavenger Lands there were massive territories with next to no detail whatsoever. There are 500 miles between Nexus and Great Forks on the Yellow River with nothing but the Walker's Realm in there. You could drop a country the size of Portugal in there and it wouldn't stress the spacing. The land mass in the south between the Lap and An-Teng is large enough that you could drop the entirety of western Europe into the emptiness. The world was already too big. 3e should have made it smaller, but they chose the opposite move.

The map is only crowded by the standard of travel spells that allowed exalted to travel hundreds or even thousands of miles per day - but life for the 99+% of people who aren't exalted doesn't function that way and the map was woefully inadequate to handle that.


The deliberate expansion of the map was to flesh out larger border regions with more interesting features, and to give the pre-established points-of-interest space to be their own things without having direct interaction with a dozen neighboring pre-established powers. With the increate variation in terrain and environment, the whole thing gives more room to inspire "hooks" for STs' own setting stuff.

Exalted demands interaction with neighboring pre-established powers! The characters are too powerful, even as dragon-blooded, to be contained within the affairs of a single minor city-state or duchy. The vary nature of Exalted's power scale demands more detail, not less, because the characters are able to influence a much larger territory from chargen. A 1st level D&D party operates at the village scale, but a Solar Circle can found a minor nation in a single adventure and is playing at the level of national politics for the entire game. Points of light is incompatible with the capabilities of exalted characters.

[Segev]

You're absolutely right that Exalted requires local neighboring powers. But consider that a "local" power, when you talk about a nation the size of Portugal, is going to be as much as 500 miles away. If you place the PCs in an area, say, near Great Forks, the actual take-over of Great Forks would be its own Story. If the Exalted are founding a nation, then they're doing it with Great Forks nearby as their rival power. If they're taking over a major power like Great Forks, that's not a single session's activity.

Frankly, the establishment is going to be the easy part; Exalted is all about exploring the consequences and testing the limits of what the new rulers are prepared for. Charms help a LOT, but there will always be gaps to close.

The stability of the major powers is important so that the PCs are the disruptive force.

Also, the map really didn't stretch. It just expanded outwards.

[Mechalich]

You're absolutely right that Exalted requires local neighboring powers. But consider that a "local" power, when you talk about a nation the size of Portugal, is going to be as much as 500 miles away. If you place the PCs in an area, say, near Great Forks, the actual take-over of Great Forks would be its own Story. If the Exalted are founding a nation, then they're doing it with Great Forks nearby as their rival power. If they're taking over a major power like Great Forks, that's not a single session's activity.

Frankly, the establishment is going to be the easy part; Exalted is all about exploring the consequences and testing the limits of what the new rulers are prepared for. Charms help a LOT, but there will always be gaps to close.

The stability of the major powers is important so that the PCs are the disruptive force.

Also, the map really didn't stretch. It just expanded outwards.

Great Forks isn't a major power - it's a random city-state that happened to get a write-up, at least according to the city-state system that 2e had. There would be other city-states, equal to or possibly bigger in size, even if they weren't as cool, between Great Forks and Nexus. but those cities don't exist, they aren't on the map.

Here's two city states separated by a similar distance: Milan and Naples. Here's the city-states that exist between them: Parma, Modena, Bologna, Florence, Arezzo, and Rome. That's just major settlements, it includes no interesting villages, holy sites, monasteries, nothing. If you're running a campaign with Nexus at one end and Great Forks at the other (which is a region roughly the size of France in size, making it a very operational geographic scale) the books provided you with less than 1/4th of the detail you'd want. And the Scavenger Lands was one of the more detailed regions on the map.

The 3e map literally has areas the size of whole continents without any data on them at all. You could drop Australia into the southeast and his nothing with a name. The city of Fajad has Wu Jian as its nearest neighbor - 2500 hundred miles of ocean away. That's madness.

If you want to run Exalted you have to pick one point on the map that you like and then build a campaign setting around it. There are only a tiny number of exceptions such as An-Teng that were ever detailed sufficiently to be useful without an immense amount of work put into their surroundings. Considering that I'm responsible for this (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1j0RQNTrhSQVIjBJw3555qA1S9Hih1SRwychiPhEwm9k/pub) I can speak with some experience as to just how much work is involved.

Not only does 3e have the problem of being too big, it also has the problem that, as the production of the edition is woefully incomplete, properly designing setting material is exceedingly difficult. Without information on Exigents, Liminals, or how the setting is now handling the Deathlords or the Yozis in any detail, everything is based in nebulous guesswork.

[Segev]

To be fair, 1E and 2E had similar problems after the Core came out, regarding having to design antagonists.

2E had it a little better, as they could draw heavily on 1e. 3e is...mechanically distinct...enough that doing so is tricky, at best.

3E has done a lot of good stuff, but it's far, FAR from perfect.

[Kalmageddon]

Another thing that keeps me away from Exalted is that I find it really hard to empathise with superhuman demigods. I wouldn't really know what a character so powerful would want, because I like giving my characters more down to earth and simple objectives, based on loved ones and personal issues. If my character can bend the laws of physics and punch holes in the moon, pretty much all my most used motivations and sources of conflict would have been solved at the character generation step.
How do you keep a character interesting and relatable when he is so above humanity?

[Segev]

Another thing that keeps me away from Exalted is that I find it really hard to empathise with superhuman demigods. I wouldn't really know what a character so powerful would want, because I like giving my characters more down to earth and simple objectives, based on loved ones and personal issues. If my character can bend the laws of physics and punch holes in the moon, pretty much all my most used motivations and sources of conflict would have been solved at the character generation step.
How do you keep a character interesting and relatable when he is so above humanity?

The last question you ask is the key, because the answer is that they aren't so above humanity.

They are humans, often with passions they pursue with great gusto, but humans.

Powerful humans.

"Able to warp reality" is a massive exaggeration for most of them. They can do a lot, and they can take over or build city-states pretty rapidly. But they then have all the attendant problems of running them.

"Loved ones and personal issues" can be a fine motivation.

Unless you like your motivations to be things that a 10th level D&D character could achieve by sneezing, they can motivate Exalted just as well.

What is it your loved ones and personal issues motivate you to do? If you have the power to become a prominent political figure, a rich socialite, or a warrior no man can defeat in single combat, how do you go about achieving the goals your loved ones and personal concerns create for you? How do you deal with the fallout from that exercise of your supernal majesty?

[Cluedrew]

How do you keep a character interesting and relatable when he is so above humanity?Above humanity in above the majority of humans, but they should never stop being people. A wrote (part of) a story that I jokingly called "OP World" because the dial went way, way passed 11. You know to about 4000. But I never had trouble writing them up, they ended up being pretty normal.

Even the "emperor of the universe" came out felling like a kid with over expectant parents. Except it is the entire universe that is setting those expectations. (Parents died thousands of years ago from old age.) Still massively powerful and capable of making countries disappear effectively overnight.

[TheCountAlucard]

How do you keep a character interesting and relatable when he is so above humanity?How were Conan, Heracles, Jubei Kibagami, and George Washington interesting and relatable?

[Grod_The_Giant]

You're describing what I sometimes call the "Superman problem"-- how do you tell a story with an extremely powerful main character? There are usually two answer.

The first is to go back to myth-- your character is larger than life, and so are their problems. Normal people want to impress Shelly, the girl who works at the local Starbucks; you want to impress Shel'ain, Queen of the North Wind. Normal people lose their temper and hit someone; you lose your temper and overthrow a city. Set grand goals, and exaggerate flaws and virtues.

If that doesn't work, you go to modern myth-- superhero stuff. The Luke Cage miniseries is a fantastic example of how to tell a compelling Superman story. You may be able to win every fight, to solve any problem you aim yourself at... but there are a thousand things happening, you can't be everywhere, and underneath all that power you have a human heart. Just because you can punch a hole in the moon* doesn't mean you can plug a hole in your heart. Your father dying or your lover leaving is a tragedy no matter how strong you are.


*At, like, Essence 6; that's literally the equivalent of an epic-level D&D character. Lower-essence characters aren't so ridiculous.

[Segev]

I have an Eclipse-Caste Solar who grew up in the Realm and travelled around the Blessed Isle as a crewman on a boat before he Exalted. He has crushes on both Mnemon and the Roseblack, and would love to woo them both and earn their love sufficiently that they'd put aside their differences for his sake, and work together to unite the Realm once more.

I've gotten him into a game, once, but it ended well before much development or even adventure happened.

[Kymme]

How do you keep a character interesting and relatable when he is so above humanity?

Cause he's not above humanity. He's a human that glows gold. He still has a human heart, human desires, etc.

Perhaps some examples could be nice? Let me tell you about the party in my first Exalted game and their motivations:

Dawn - defeat evil brother and earn his father's love
Night - rescue his kidnapped wife
Zenith - make real, actual friends for once in her life
Eclipse - take over the world
Twilight - go on a grand adventure

Only one of these is really 'above humanity.' The rest could exist in the real world, or in a more grounded kind of setting. The difference between these sorts of things is scale. The Dawn's brother is an evil Demon Prince, the Night's wife was kidnapped by a demigod vampire, etc. The emotional context of the game is still firmly grounded, and the character's don't behave like they're 'above humanity.' They have special powers, sure, but they're still men and women with human feelings and thoughts.

[golentan]

Hmm,kay, lots of important things to note...but now I have two real big questions more so to do with actual rules.

How big an improvement is 3rd Edition over 2nd?

Is the Scroll of Errata really as necessary as I've heard it is? What does it fix in the core book? With just the core book and Solar, all it seems to 'fix' is removing limitations on choices during character creation and clarify some stuff. Am I missing something or is it primarily essential for other types of Exalted/later chapters?

3rd edition is a HUGE improvement over 2.5 in terms of conflict resolution and easily tracking down rules, but is a step back in terms of the amount of the world it's convenient to run for (dragonblooded and abyssals were my go to antagonists for most parties, and their rules have not yet been published, for example).

Big thing about scroll of errata is it fixed "turtling" and infinite defensive combos in my opinion, as well as made attacking more flashy and improvisational and fun. Paranoia combat... any player (or ST) who comes to the table with a defensive combo which makes a character immune to consequences should have their sheet shredded, IMO.

The increased cost of perfect effects, plus not having to pay XP for combos, solved a lot of what ailed 2e, but as long as everyone agrees to not ruin the game, you can and should be able to enjoy second edition just fine.

In answer to your first question of advice for running... I'd say build a story, and put the PCs in a position to influence it, and then you're just along for the right and to referee. Like, pick a region the game starts in, then pick two or more powerful factions duking it out for control. The Realm, a local Deathlord, the Reclamation, a local lunar, etc. etc. Give the PCs opportunities to pick sides if they're not already allied with one side or the other, or make their own faction. Maybe they want to build a city and rule an empire, maybe they want to pillage some tombs, maybe they want to go on a revenge rampage against an army, just make sure there are set pieces pertaining to their expressed interests in the planning stage and their motivation.

Then... Reuse enemies. Make sure that any antagonist who's interesting gets a few get out of death free cards. The abyssal knight falls off a bridge into a river, only to come back angry over the loss of her arm, stuff like that. It makes the final confrontations more meaningful.

And... Don't be afraid to lean into the social stuff, or just the mundanities of being a superhero/demigod in a weird world. I've had a lot of fun doing slice of life games of dragonblooded students at a school of sorcery like Valkhawsen, or sidereals bickering with gods over office space.

[Arbane]

Paranoia combat... any player (or ST) who comes to the table with a defensive combo which makes a character immune to consequences should have their sheet shredded, IMO.


You ARE aware the Exalted has an awful lot of abilities that can be summarized as "if this touches you, YOU DIE", right?
And ambushes are A Thing That Exists.

[TheCountAlucard]

@golentan: What is that supposed to even mean, anyway, "immune to consequences?"

[golentan]

You ARE aware the Exalted has an awful lot of abilities that can be summarized as "if this touches you, YOU DIE", right?
And ambushes are A Thing That Exists.

Yes, but they need not be USED, and unless the story you guys are collaborating on calls for it they shouldn't.

I realize that Exalted has a lot of devastating powers, and I have no problem with the existence of perfect defenses. My problem is when people try to get so many perfect effects that they are immune to any theoretical threat cheaply enough that they spam it in response to any perceived threat. The sort of thing that happens when players find out the existence of paranoia combat and say "I've got to get in on that." Surprise Negation + Perfect Dodge + Shaping Defense + Flurrybreaker + Perfect Soak, and then doing NOTHING ELSE until combat ends, reducing the cinematic clash of demigods to "I use my combo," "I use my combo," ad infinitum until someone gets bored and leaves or the ST justifiably stops awarding the stunts which are keeping the motes and willpower fed for doing absolutely nothing.

The players have at their disposal an arsenal. So does the ST. If neither side goes too far down the rabbit hole of thinking "THE OTHER PARTY IS MY ENEMY, GRAAR MUST STAY AHEAD" you can enjoy the cinematic joy of a demigod who can wade through lava and parry a nuclear blast with a butter knife squaring off against a demigod who is invulnerable as long as her friends lend her their power without it devolving into paranoia combat.

STs: Yes, you can kill your players without giving them a save. Don't do it. Aim to push them in their area of expertise or related fields, not blindside them where they are no better than a mortal.
Players: Yes, you can make Invincible Sword Princess and create a character who has no blind spot, but don't. Trust your ST and build a character who will be exciting to play and exciting to run for.

Edit: and again, don't necessarily make it all about combat. Social games and slice of life is a lot of fun and bypasses the potential for people missing the point and getting in an arms race entirely. Well, mostly.

[Segev]

I still say not to worry if players come to the table with paranoia combos that render them "immune to consequences." Because they really aren't. If you think they are, you're thinking too directly about hurting them physically.

Remember: if there's a fight, there should be a reason for it. Unless it's really that personal, there must be some reason the enemies are attacking the heroes beyond just wanting to kill them. The street toughs want to rob them. The bar bullies want to feel bigger about themselves by picking on somebody they think is weaker. The bandits want to raid the caravan. The assassins want to kill the princess the PCs are guarding for political reasons. The river dragon is hungry and wants to eat a sack of land-meat with a crunchy center.

Maybe the Wyld Hunt wants to personally kill them, and maybe an assassin was hired to kill a PC, but generally, those shouldn't be the norm. And when they ARE, that's when you let their paranoia combos shine, and you let them recognize that they're running into situations designed to compromise their Flaws of Invulnerability. The challenge becomes not letting that happen. And sometimes, you just let them be invincible.

But the Wyld Hunt is going to go after anybody who helps them, too. It need not be "kill the Anathema." It could be "burn the heretics contaminated by Anathema magic." And now, we're back to the heroes having to protect more than just themselves.

So if they're "invincible" thanks to paranoia combos, so what? That just means you don't have to worry about accidentally killing them. You can be as deadly as you feel your NPCs warrant. And mercilessly seek victory in conflict, because even when the PCs lose, they're not out of the game.

[GrayDeath]

Great Forks isn't a major power - it's a random city-state that happened to get a write-up, at least according to the city-state system that 2e had. There would be other city-states, equal to or possibly bigger in size, even if they weren't as cool, between Great Forks and Nexus. but those cities don't exist, they aren't on the map.

Here's two city states separated by a similar distance: Milan and Naples. Here's the city-states that exist between them: Parma, Modena, Bologna, Florence, Arezzo, and Rome. That's just major settlements, it includes no interesting villages, holy sites, monasteries, nothing. If you're running a campaign with Nexus at one end and Great Forks at the other (which is a region roughly the size of France in size, making it a very operational geographic scale) the books provided you with less than 1/4th of the detail you'd want. And the Scavenger Lands was one of the more detailed regions on the map.

The 3e map literally has areas the size of whole continents without any data on them at all. You could drop Australia into the southeast and his nothing with a name. The city of Fajad has Wu Jian as its nearest neighbor - 2500 hundred miles of ocean away. That's madness.

If you want to run Exalted you have to pick one point on the map that you like and then build a campaign setting around it. There are only a tiny number of exceptions such as An-Teng that were ever detailed sufficiently to be useful without an immense amount of work put into their surroundings. Considering that I'm responsible for this (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1j0RQNTrhSQVIjBJw3555qA1S9Hih1SRwychiPhEwm9k/pub) I can speak with some experience as to just how much work is involved.

Not only does 3e have the problem of being too big, it also has the problem that, as the production of the edition is woefully incomplete, properly designing setting material is exceedingly difficult. Without information on Exigents, Liminals, or how the setting is now handling the Deathlords or the Yozis in any detail, everything is based in nebulous guesswork.


I agree.

2nd as far from "full", and the fact that third has such an improved system but nothing but core and strange concepts exist....makes me sad.


To be fair, 1E and 2E had similar problems after the Core came out, regarding having to design antagonists.

2E had it a little better, as they could draw heavily on 1e. 3e is...mechanically distinct...enough that doing so is tricky, at best.

3E has done a lot of good stuff, but it's far, FAR from perfect.

Most importantly its far from the necessary amount (and speed) of additional published books to be considered a full World of Exalted (TM).
Its just "Solar Exalted in an empty world" right now....

[Segev]

Most importantly its far from the necessary amount (and speed) of additional published books to be considered a full World of Exalted (TM).
Its just "Solar Exalted in an empty world" right now....

I wouldn't go that far. The world isn't empty. But it has a lot of room to grow.

[GrayDeath]

It has Solars.
And Mortals.

And a few "monsters" in Core.


Everything else it does not have (as you cannot take anything from 2nd due to the changed System). Add to that the .... sparsely populated Map, and I think Empty fits better than "Room to grow". Unless you add "another 400% in Splat/Playable Content and 1000% in Locations and stuff" as a qualifier of course. :P

[Kalmageddon]

I don't suppose Exalted has some sort of online srd, like d20, right? You made me curious to actually give it a shot

[GrayDeath]

Sadly no.

Although there is an Exalted WIKI, its unofficial (the White Wolf one is close to nonexistant, sadly...).

There were a few givaway events for Second Edition though, and at times they are really cheap at Drivethrough (my Suggestions would be to get Core and as many Manuals of Exalted Power as possible, plus Graceful Wicked masques and the Compass"´Volume of the area that seems most interesting to you.

Thats usually enough to run Exalted on "Full Mode". ^^

[meschlum]

I am a proponent of using Raksha (Graceful Wicked Masques) for everything, but then I'm biased that way. Also, you really shouldn't do it, because the rules for Raksha in the Wyld are terrible. The fluff is fun, the interactions with Creation-born are nuts, the pure Wyld game is non-functional (and errata does not help).

That said, the Fair Folk are an excellent way of introducing the amount of awesome that can be pulled off in Exalted, and are going to actively try to remain at about the level of the players as long as they can (how long that is remains open to debate. I like to believe it's 'very', others will tell you 'never', and we're all right).

Raksha want the Exalts to care about them, and are interested in defeating PCs rather than killing them (someone who is dead isn't going to be mad at you or in love with you, after all). So they have a reason to send in expendable minions at first (and don't mind seeing them die - they're pretty much infinitely replaceable) and keeping and improving the ones that survive (if the players had a lot of fun fighting the spider beast, and it escapes, it'll come back stronger than before. If mowing through goblin hordes was tedious, the goblins will cease to exist and be replaced by bow using salamanders).

Raksha can have more or less all the money, as well as customized artifacts to steal, give, or trade. So a loot focused party is going to find lots of fun stuff when fighting the Fair Folk, and can probably be caught in deeper (more social, more consequences) plots as a result. A Raksha can create a dungeon more or less instantly, fill it with generic monsters and treasure, and let the PCs cut loose if they want, though the ensuing loot might be of the 'it was all a dream' variety. If the characters complain, the Raksha can provide real foes and treasures, though it takes a bit more effort to prepare - since it's probably doing this by converting a nearby town into the monsters and treasure. Repeat a few times, and the players have their dungeon groove going, while the Wyld Hunt is getting ready to crush them...

That's a way to use them as antagonists - the guys who give you missions and ultimately betray you. It's possible to do a lot more, but since Raksha can be fairly fragile, the players can get the satisfaction of defeating the 'evil' Raksha who manipulated them into behaving like an adventuring party, keeping the treasure, and feeling responsible for the area they've just conquered by accident. Then you can bring in consequences and more dangerous foes.