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ForzaFiori
2007-07-30, 11:24 PM
As many people know, the monk is a highly underpowered class. I decided to try to change that, by making what I'm calling a "Martial Artist". He has some of the monk's combat abilities, a full BAB, all good saves, and improved speed. He also gains many feats, though they relate only to his chosen weapon of specialization. He can use Padded armor, to represent a strengthened Gi.
I would love any comments on how it could be better, whether its overpowered, underpowered, or just plain stupid.

This class is intended to replace the monk, not to add an entirely new class.



Martial Artist
" There was a student studying the martial arts. One day the student asked his instructor how long it would take to achieve the rank of black belt. The instructor responded that it would take two years.

The student then asked how long it would take to advance to black belt if he practiced twice as hard and twice as long every day. The instructor responded that it would take four years.

Puzzled, the student then asked how long it would take to advance to black belt if he practiced four times as hard and four times as long every day. The instructor responded that it would take eight years.

Even more puzzled, the student then asked how long it would take to advance to black belt if he practiced eight times as hard and eight times as long every day. The instructor responded that it would take sixteen years.

The student, feeling very frustrated at this point, asked why it would take longer to earn a black belt when he was trying harder and practicing constantly to earn it. The instructor responded 'If you have one eye constantly on the black belt, that only leaves one eye to focus on what you are currently learning.'" Master Yamagata Haru to his student, Kanagawa Hiroshi


The Martial Artist. He can be the noble fencer, the secret monk up in his mountain monastery, or the boxer that just took the national championship. They all have one thing in common. They train their entire lives, and will specialize in one weapon (though they may know how to use others).


Adventures: The Martial Artists adventures to improve himself. Rarely will you find one out looking for gold, or looking to earn fame. Rather, they will adventure simply to improve.

Alignment: Martial Artists are diverse. They can be beneficial, protecting those weaker than them. They can be malicious, using their power to dominate others. They can be a force of chaos or law. However, all martial artists learn of moderation, and will therefore never be an extreme alignment. All martial artists are neutral in some sense of the world.

Religion: Many Martial Artists worship gods of strength, or gods of their dominate alignment. Others worship patron gods of their hometowns. Some Martial Artists worship none. It is the choice of each one, usually chosen only after long deliberation.

Background: Martial Artists come from all different backgrounds. A noblemen may become a fencer, a poor man may become a fighting monk, a cobbler's son may take up boxing in his spare time. All are martial artists.

Races: Elves, with their long age and excellent attention span, make great martial artists. Other long lived races, such as Dwarves and Gnomes also have as many martial artists as they do monks. Humans, oddly enough, also sport a large number. They are almost unheard of among the wild races, and Halflings are less prone to become one than others might be.

Other Classes: Martial Artists get along excellently with fighters, as they share a front line duty and may share a fighting style. They also respect the Wizard's ability to learn all that he must, something the Martial Artist can relate to. She views the Cleric, Rogue, and Paladin with an indifferent attitude, seeing them as people who could have become excellent with one ability, and chose instead to become a jack of all trades. The barbarian she sees as just that, someone lacking the refined abilities and expertise of a true martial fighters. She doesn't understand Druids, and tends to give them distance.

Roles: The Martial Artist can be a front line fighter, a flanker, a scout, or an archer, depending on how she spends his bonus feats.


Game Rule Information

Martial Artists have the following game statistics.

Abilities: Dexterity improves the Martial Artists armor, something she'll need since she uses only padded armor. Wisdom also increases her AC. Strength and Constitution are useful as the Martial Artist is made for fighting.

Alignment: Any Neutral

Hit Die: d8


Class Skills

The Martial Artist's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are: Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex)
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier

{table] Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Ability|Unarmed Damage
1|1|2|2|2| Specialization, Improved AC, Evasion|1d6
2|2|3|3|3|Weapon Training|1d6
3|3|3|3|3|Still Mind|1d6
4|4|4|4|4|Purity of Body|1d8
5|5|4|4|4|Weapon Feat|1d8
6|6/1|5|5|5| Weapon Proficiency|1d8
7|7/2|5|5|5|Wholeness of Body|1d8
8|8/3|6|6|6|Improved Evasion|1d10
9|9/4|6|6|6|Style Feat|1d10
10|10/5|7|7|7|Weapon Mastery|1d10
11|11/6/1|7|7|7|Diamond Body|1d10
12|12/7/2|8|8|8|Weapon Proficiency|2d6
13|13/8/3|8|8|8|Improved Initiative|2d6
14|14/9/4|9|9|9|Style Feat|2d6
15|15/10/5|9|9|9|Weapon Feat|2d6
16|16/11/6/1|10|10|10|Diamond Soul|2d8
17|17/12/7/2|10|10|10|Timeless Body|2d8
18|18/13/8/3|11|11|11|Weapon Proficiency|2d8
19|19/14/9/4|11|11|11|Style Feat|2d8
20|20/15/10/5|12|12|12|Weapon Mastery|2d10
[/table]

Class Features

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The Martial Artist is proficient in the Gi (padded armor), and any five martial artist weapons. She becomes proficient in a new martial artist weapon at 6th, 12th, and 18th level (essentially gaining martial weapon proficiency or exotic weapon proficiency as a bonus feat). She may take additional weapon and armor proficiency feats but she loses her speed bonus, wisdom bonus to AC, and evasion/improved evasion if she wears any armor other than a Gi.

Martial Artist Weapons: All Swords, Blowgun, Bo (quarterstaff), Bola, Chakram, Dagger, Fu (Battleaxe), Glaive, Halberd, Kama, Katar (Punching Dagger), Kukri, Longspear, Nunchaku, Patu (Mace), Sai, Shield Bash, Shortspear, Shuriken, Siangham, Sickle, Spear, Spiked Chain, Tessen (War Fan), Three-Section Staff, Throwing Axe, Tonfa, Whip, Whip-Dagger, and Yumi (Longbow)


Specialization:At 1st level, the Martial Artist chooses a martial artist weapon to specialize in (she may choose unarmed strike). The Martial Artist must choose a weapon she is proficient with. If she chooses unarmed strike, she gains the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, and the monk's unarmed strike damage. The Martial Artist gains a +1 to attacks with this weapon.

Improved AC: The Martial Artist adds her Wisdom Bonus (if any) to her AC, as well as her Dexterity Bonus. The Wisdom Bonus stacks with all other bonuses, but the Martial Artist loses it if she wears any armor heavier than a Gi.

Evasion: Whenever a Martial Artist makes a successful Reflex save against an effect that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. This ability does not function if the Martial Artist is wearing armor heavier than a Gi, or if she is helpless.

Weapon Feat: At 5th, and 15th levels, the Martial Artist gets a bonus feat based on her choice of specialization. Whenever the Martial Artist gains a weapon feat, she may take any feat she qualifies for which requires her to select a weapon (she must select her specialized weapon). She may also select Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Quick Draw, Weapon Finesse (which works even if the specialized weapon is not light), Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Greater Two Weapon Fighting, Two Weapon Defense, Combat Reflexes, or Combat Expertise; the effects of these feats only apply when the martial artist uses her specialized weapon.

Weapon Training: The Martial Artist's Class levels count as fighter levels for the Weapon Specialization, Improved Weapon Specialization, and Improved Weapon Focus feats for her specialized weapon only.

Still Mind: Starting at 3rd level, the Martial Artist gets a +2 bonus to saving throws against enchantment effects.

Style Feat: At 9th level, the Martial Artist may choose between Dodge (even if her dexterity is lower than 13) and Endurance. At 14th level, the Martial Artist gets Mobility if she chose Dodge at 9th level, or Diehard if she chose endurance. At 19th level, she gets Spring Attack if she chose Dodge, or Improved Toughness if she chose Endurance.

Purity of Body: Starting at 4th level, the Martial Artist is immune to all diseases except for supernatural and magical diseases (like mummy rot or lycanthropy).

Wholeness of Body: Starting at 7th level, the Martial Artist can heal her own wounds. She can heal up to twice her level in HP/day, and can spread the effect out over multiple healings.

Improved Evasion: At 8th level, the Martial Artist's Evasion ability becomes Improved Evasion. She still takes no damage on successful Reflex saves, but now if she fails the save, she takes only half damage.

Diamond Body: At 11th level, the Martial Artist becomes immune to poisons of all kinds.

Improved Initiative: At 13th level, the Martial Artist gains Improved Initiative as a bonus feat. If she already has Improved Initiative, the bonus rises from +4 to +6.

Diamond Soul: At 16th level, the Martial Artist gains spell resistance equal to her class level +10.

Timeless Body: Starting at 17th level, the Martial Artist no longer takes ability score penalties for aging. Any penalties she has already taken remain in place. She still receives ability score bonuses for aging, and she still dies of old age when her time is up.

Weapon Mastery: At 10th level, when the Martial Artist wields her specialized weapon, it is treated as having an enhancement bonus of +1 higher than its actual enhancement bonus. This ability affects both magic and mundane weapons, and unarmed strikes, and can raise the enhancement bonus higher than +5. This is not an actual magic effect, so it works in an anti-magic zone, but cannot penetrate damage reduction. At 20th level, this bonus rises to +2.

Edit: switched some things around, took out some feats, and moved their starting points up. Also slightly changed the Specialization ability

Alfryd
2007-07-31, 06:38 AM
I suspect this class would be slightly overpowered. It has a fighter's BAB, a wide selection of proficiencies, Hit Dice only a shade worse, and a whole bunch of miscellaneous benefits that are almost as valuable as bonus feats every second level. It's like you're getting all the benefits of a monk + most of a fighter on top of that.

My other complaint with this class is that it seems to blur the boundaries between the monk's spiritual aspects and the fighter's martial supremacy. I dunno. I'm working on a monk variant myself, I might get back to you later.

ForzaFiori
2007-07-31, 11:01 AM
I suspect this class would be slightly overpowered. It has a fighter's BAB, a wide selection of proficiencies, Hit Dice only a shade worse, and a whole bunch of miscellaneous benefits that are almost as valuable as bonus feats every second level. It's like you're getting all the benefits of a monk + most of a fighter on top of that.

My other complaint with this class is that it seems to blur the boundaries between the monk's spiritual aspects and the fighter's martial supremacy. I dunno. I'm working on a monk variant myself, I might get back to you later.

Thanks for the input, having it be overpowered was one worry i had

I tried to compensate, by allowing weapon prof. with only 8 weapons, despite the large amount to chose from. it also gains less bonus feats than a fighter, and as you said, has a lower hit die. The reason it blurs the line between the spiritual monk and the fighter is because thats what a martial artist (what the class was based on) does. they are excellent fighters, and they also gain spiritual knowledge while training. a Martial artist basically IS a cross between the monk and the fighter. Another way i tried to compensate was giving them alot of feats, yes, but they're only applicable when using 1 weapon, instead of the way a fighter could switch and still get most of his feats to work.

I might go back and remove some feats, or drop the BaB, but i'm not sure.

blue_fenix
2007-07-31, 11:48 AM
A lot of fighters end up picking a weapon at first level and specializing all their feats in it anyway, so that aspect of this class may not be as limiting as you think it is.

Engine
2007-07-31, 12:19 PM
A lot of fighters end up picking a weapon at first level and specializing all their feats in it anyway, so that aspect of this class may not be as limiting as you think it is.

Uh,well.
When playing Fighter,I frequently choose Combat Expertise,Combat Reflexes and Power Attack.Even without my specialized weapon (uh,I love weapons with reach) there's plenty of uses for these Feats.
Without the specialized weapon,the Martial Artist is seriously hampered.Much more the humble Fighter.And don't forget the D8,that's not a great HD for a frontliner.
Ok,the Martial Artist it's a bit more powerful compared with the PHB 3.5,but that's not a great class compared with the classes from the Tome of Battle and so on.

Alfryd
2007-08-02, 05:02 AM
It definitely seems to be overpowered relative to the Fighter.
Weapon Feat grants you 4 extra feats, Style Feat grants you 3, Improved Initiative is another, and Weapon Mastery is the equivalent of Weapon Focus, improved Weapon Focus, and Weapon Specialisation all in one- on top of those actual feats!

So, the only benefit the level 20 Fighter has in comparison is (a) greater flexibility and (b) 20 extra HP. I'll concede that the humble Fighter tends to suffer distinct drawbacks at higher levels, but still.
Unarmed damage is not going to see much use without Ki strike, so I would suggest removing that benefit. Knock off the good Will saves. Halve the number of bonus feats and make Weapon Mastery a gradual progression instead (actually, that might make unarmed strike viable... anyways.)

Hadrian_Emrys
2007-08-03, 12:07 AM
Pros:
Addresses the oriental flavor that sets off closed minded purists by making the theme more open ended.
Removes the problem of flurry of misses. (I'm sorry, but true martial artist is really flipping accurate.)
Allows the use of shields. (A particular pet peeve of mine.)
Tries to broaden the field for the monk's focus beyond unarmed combat.

Cons:
Too many benefits without drawbacks to make up for the excessive gain. By which I refer to the only real losses are the slow fall (gimpy anyway) and assorted flavor abilities like Tongue of Sun and Moon.


I'm all for "fixing" the monk, but something about this transition loses some of the soul of the class, to be replaced with a little piece of the fighter's. There are some interesting ideas in this build, I'm especially fond of being able to select what weapons one has chosen as their favored ones. However, I feel rather strongly that a monk should have a distinct feel of it's own.

ForzaFiori
2007-08-03, 12:55 AM
@Alfryd: I'll most likely reduce the number of feats, and change the Mastery to a progression.

@Hadrian: Any idea of Drawbacks/ways to regain monk flavor? i just tried to make what i feal you get out of martial arts training.

Alfryd
2007-08-03, 05:18 AM
I just tried to make what I feel you get out of martial arts training.
Perhaps you could rule that levels in Martial Artist always impose a 20% XP penalty when multiclassing, regardless of favoured classes. Somewhat in flavour with the Monk.

Hadrian_Emrys
2007-08-03, 08:26 AM
Have you ever taken martial arts? The primary focus of most major schools lies lies with soundness of body and mind. What makes monks unique, and separates the class from every other melee combatant, is not the weapons mastery. Feats one take non one's own could cover the specific training one undergoes with weapons, but what martial artist worth his salt can't compete in a fight while unarmed? There are styles that focus on weapons use, yes, but the likes of iaido and escrima are are too near the territory of classes like fighter and *gag* samurai, and thus, the flavor of monk is lost.

ForzaFiori
2007-08-03, 11:44 AM
Have you ever taken martial arts? The primary focus of most major schools lies lies with soundness of body and mind. What makes monks unique, and separates the class from every other melee combatant, is not the weapons mastery. Feats one take non one's own could cover the specific training one undergoes with weapons, but what martial artist worth his salt can't compete in a fight while unarmed? There are styles that focus on weapons use, yes, but the likes of iaido and escrima are are too near the territory of classes like fighter and *gag* samurai, and thus, the flavor of monk is lost.

yes, i have. 10 years of gojoryu and kobudo.
the soundness of mind and body is in the Still Mind, Purity of Body, Wholeness of Body, Diamond Body, Diamond Soul, etc. I kept most (if not all (i cant remember if I dropped one)) of those bonus' that reflect how training improves you body and mind. Many styles will focus on both weapons and empty hand. Most students of a martial art, in my experience, will become proficient in many weapons, but only truly master one, unless they spend their entire lives working. For instance, i can use a bo staff, tonfa, sai, nunchucku, and my fists, and i know the basics of a couple other weapons. however, I am very good at using Sai, much more so than the others.

@Alfryd: Thats an excellent idea, thank you.

Hadrian_Emrys
2007-08-03, 11:17 PM
I wasn't trying to make a personal attack or anything. As a practicing martial artist myself, I was simply just trying to make the point that while you are indeed correct that weapons use is a common trait in many a martial art, it isn't the trait that sets the monk class apart from the other physical combatants.

ForzaFiori
2007-08-03, 11:56 PM
alright, so i took out half the weapon feats, and changed them to 5th and 15th lv. the weapon mastery now starts at +1 at 10th lv, and rises to +2 at 20th. style mastery still has 3 feats, gained at 9th, 14th, and 19th levels. other things were moved slightly so you gain 1 ability/level.

Alfryd
2007-08-07, 09:13 AM
You seem to have a comma stuck on at level 20. :)

Again, unarmed damage won't see much use with only a +2 bonus. Perhaps you could specify that Weapon Mastery allows a bonus of at least +4, and gradually progress over time, with extra weapons permitted?

Now that I think of it, you might consider breaking down the class benefits into several distinct paths. This allows the character a little more flexibility, a la the fighter, while nerfing overall benefits. You'd pick 2 paths when the character started out, and gain abilities from each over time.

Say, like so:
{table=head]Level|Path of Weapon Mastery|Path of Style Mastery|Path of Weapon Regimen|Path of Spirituality
5|+1|Dodge|Weapon Proficiency, AC Wis bonus, Improve Unarmed Strike|Still Mind (+2), Purity of Body
10|+2, Second Mastered Weapon|Mobility, Evasion|Weapon Proficiency, AC +1, Toughness|Diamond Body, Wholeness of Body (x2)
15|+3|Spring Attack|Weapon Proficiency, AC +3, Endurance|Diamond Soul, Still Mind (+5)
20|+4, Third Mastered Weapon|Whirlwind Attack, Improved Evasion|Weapon Proficiency, AC +5, Diehard|Timeless Body, Wholeness of Body (x5)
[/table]

ForzaFiori
2007-08-07, 09:46 AM
You seem to have a comma stuck on at level 20. :)

Again, unarmed damage won't see much use with only a +2 bonus. Perhaps you could specify that Weapon Mastery allows a bonus of at least +4, and gradually progress over time, with extra weapons permitted?

Now that I think of it, you might consider breaking down the class benefits into several distinct paths. This allows the character a little more flexibility, a la the fighter, while nerfing overall benefits. You'd pick 2 paths when the character started out, and gain abilities from each over time.

Say, like so:
{table=head]Level|Path of Weapon Mastery|Path of Style Mastery|Path of Weapon Regimen|Path of Spirituality
5|+1|Dodge|Weapon Proficiency, AC Wis bonus, Improve Unarmed Strike|Still Mind (+2), Purity of Body
10|+2, Second Mastered Weapon|Mobility, Evasion|Weapon Proficiency, AC +1, Toughness|Diamond Body, Wholeness of Body (x2)
15|+3|Spring Attack|Weapon Proficiency, AC +3, Endurance|Diamond Soul, Still Mind (+5)
20|+4, Third Mastered Weapon|Whirlwind Attack, Improved Evasion|Weapon Proficiency, AC +5, Diehard|Timeless Body, Wholeness of Body (x5)
[/table]

that is an excellent idea.

Paragon Badger
2007-08-07, 09:03 PM
At some point or another, any martial arts based class should get an ability similiar to 'Improved Grab' with an unarmed attack.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#improvedGrab

However, I would change this ability in the following way:


????
If a monk/martial artist with this special attack hits with an unarmed attack, it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. No initial touch attack is required. A monk/martial artist can choose not to grapple after a successful attack.

A monk/martial artist may preform this on any sized creature, but size modifiers to grapple checks still apply.


Why add this? Sure, it could make the monk/martial artist a devilishly fearsome foe when facing him one on one, but that would even the field. Monks/martial artists will have an advantage over the melee classes like the fighter and the barbarian because they can nullify the barbarian/fighter's 2d6 greataxe. Or, if they get close to a wizard, they can make casting spells difficult, even if the Mage's buffs make it hard to actually 'damage' the wizard- the martial artist can even the field.

Plus, it's fitting with the theme of the martial artist. They fight using their body, and pinning and manipulating a person through grappling is a fundamental aspects of many real-world martial arts.

It would make the monk/martial artist an exceptionally more dangerous (and balanced) class. They will not be able to take out superior numbers as efficiently as say, the barbarian or fighter, but they will be supreme one-on-one combatants, which is, what I think, they should be.

Also, try looking at the D20 modern SRD, particularly the class 'Martial Artist'. ;-) Living Weapon makes it so you can do unarmed attacks even when your hands are bound or somesuch.

But beware, adding this 'auto grapple' may make the martial artist, in conjunction with the other abilities, a bit TOO powerful. ;-) Personally, I'd reccomend losing the emphasis on weapons/armor. Because really, that's muscling in on the fighter's turf. The fighter is a master with his weapon, his shield, and his armor. The monk is a master with his body. It's what seperates the two classes (or 3 if you count the barbarian)

So I reccomend
1. Adding this special attack, and giving it a name. :-P ^_^
2. Losing the emphasis on weaponry/shields/armor (or, at the very least, make it severely limited so that could only be a 'specialized type of martial artist' that the RP-inclined players go for. ;-))
3. I VERY much like the idea of increased ability stat increases, as it fits in with the monk/martial artisit's themes of self-improvement... but +1 for each level is EXTREMELY broken. A level 21 monk can have a Wisdom score of 53! Or, a dexterity and wisdom score in the high-to-mid twenties, giving him an ungodly ammount of AC. Perhaps every 7 levels of martial artist, add an ability point. So a level 21 character will have 7 ability points to allocate. A helpful leap from the regular 5 that everyone else gets. This will help them compensate for the lack of armor (Which wisdom/dexterity never seems to make up for in the standard monk version... :-/)

4. I'm not sure I like the Paths thing... Try putting all of the Master feats into a collection of Martial Artist Bonus feats... and you'll probably see that the dex based PCs who take dodge first... are going to go on and take Mobility, spring attack, and whirlwind attack anyway. You're kind of limiting the freedom of choice needlessly. Plus, it makes some of the useful monk abilities inaccessable to a player who takes a different path. A martial artist with no AC bonus is just a rogue who can't use even light armor. :-/

Oh yeah, and final thought, I'm not sure about when the class should get the 'auto grapple' attack. I have much faith in grapple, if used correctly, (Even though NOBODY sees the merit of it. :-/ It nullifies the big weapon advantage of fighters and the spellcasting advantage of wizards who must make a concentration check for both any damage received that round via the monk and the 20+Spell level of being grappled!), but I have not had the chance to utilize it as a player in many of my games.... so I'm unsure as to whether put this as a level 1 class ability for the martial artist, or hold off and allocate it later.

ForzaFiori
2007-08-07, 09:13 PM
alright, so on the scrap and start over table, we have this table of specialties:

{table=head]Level|Path of Weapon Mastery|Path of Style Mastery|Path of Weapon Regimen|Path of Spirituality
5|+1|Dodge|Weapon Proficiency, AC Wis bonus, Improve Unarmed Strike|Still Mind (+2), Purity of Body
10|+2, Second Mastered Weapon|Mobility, Evasion|Weapon Proficiency, AC +1, Improved Toughness|Diamond Body, Wholeness of Body (x2)
15|+3|Spring Attack|Weapon Proficiency, AC +3, Endurance|Diamond Soul, Still Mind (+5)
20|+4, Third Mastered Weapon|Whirlwind Attack, Improved Evasion|Weapon Proficiency, AC +5, Diehard|Timeless Body, Wholeness of Body (x5)
[/table]

and an unnamed grapple move:

????
If a monk/martial artist with this special attack hits with an unarmed attack, it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. No initial touch attack is required. A monk/martial artist can choose not to grapple after a successful attack.

A monk/martial artist may preform this on any sized creature, but size modifiers to grapple checks still apply.

The grapple will probably be given around 7th or 8th level, as learning to grab well isn't something you grasp right off, but its not terribly difficult either.

that still leaves a lot of empty levels. and with a class that gains nothing other than those bonuses, i'm loath to leave them empty.

any suggestions?

Alfryd
2007-08-08, 01:57 PM
...a class that gains nothing other than those bonuses, i'm loath to leave them empty.
any suggestions?
Yeah. Don't get hung up over the notion of 'dead levels' when plenty of core SRD classes do just fine on the assumption that players don't all suffer from ADD.

Secondly, perhaps you might call the special free-grapple move Empty Hand, or something. Heh.

The grapple will probably be given around 7th or 8th level, as learning to grab well isn't something you grasp right off, but its not terribly difficult either.
I'd be tempted to insert it under the Path of Weapon Regimen at level 10, instead of Improved Toughness. (Also, on second thoughts, I think 'Path of Combat Regimen' might be a more appropriate title.)


...Perhaps every 7 levels of martial artist, add an ability point. So a level 21 character will have 7 ability points to allocate.
]I'm not sure I like the Paths thing... You're kind of limiting the freedom of choice needlessly.
...plus, it makes some of the useful monk abilities inaccessable to a player who takes a different path...
...you'll probably see that the dex based PCs who take dodge first... are going to go on and take Mobility, spring attack, and whirlwind attack anyway.
A martial artist with no AC bonus is just a rogue who can't use even light armor...
...but they will be supreme one-on-one combatants, which is, what I think, they should be.
Personally, I'd reccomend losing the emphasis on weapons/armor. Because really, that's muscling in on the fighter's turf.

Umm... I think you mean 3.
Unless, of course, that's a conscious concession to the notion of single-minded dedication and linear progression expected of the monk.
Right. ...So, presumably, this lets them save their feats for other purposes?
Hence the term 'Nerf'.
Except that here, the Martial Artist CAN use light armour, the Gi. I quite like that, actually.
Agreed.
Apparently, that's partly the point of the class.

elliott20
2007-08-08, 02:29 PM
*insert obligatory "use Tome of Battle" advice*

but seriously now.

I like the idea of choosing paths for greater specialization. But I don't feel like these paths are addressing the very real issue that is present with most melee classes, in that they are the most effective when they can get off full round attacks.

So, while the extra bonus to damage is nice, a +4 to damage is really not all that comparable to what the other classes can do. At least, not without being able to trap them and then pull out a full round attack on them.

The solution here is to either work in mechanics that gives them a better chance to use a full round attack, or find ways for them to do more hurt off of a standard action.

the danger here is that we don't want to do it so that they can dash all over the place and handing out punishment without some kind of limitation. Else, this becomes a SAFE move and breaks the game. (my philosophy here is that if an option allows you pick the same moves over and over again without thought and still be invincible, then the move is broken)

Triaxx
2007-08-08, 06:23 PM
My Martial Artist has decided to stay at level 3, so he can simply do ten damage with each blow, and use items to enhance his attacks per round.

I can see this as a fanatically powerful mage killer. A Drow Martial artist gains natural spell resistance. Then at level 4, picks up evasion. At 8, Improved Evasion, Improved Initiative at 13, and at 16, +16 spell resistance. The last of which I assume stacks with the natural spell resistance. (SR33) Even with Greater Spell Penetration, most wizards would be hard pressed to get through that.

ForzaFiori
2007-08-08, 07:35 PM
My Martial Artist has decided to stay at level 3, so he can simply do ten damage with each blow, and use items to enhance his attacks per round.

I can see this as a fanatically powerful mage killer. A Drow Martial artist gains natural spell resistance. Then at level 4, picks up evasion. At 8, Improved Evasion, Improved Initiative at 13, and at 16, +16 spell resistance. The last of which I assume stacks with the natural spell resistance. (SR33) Even with Greater Spell Penetration, most wizards would be hard pressed to get through that.

that was a typo.
its fixed now.

also, i'm completely revamping it.

please, if your going to act like a sarcastic ass, at least read the entire thread.

Triaxx
2007-08-09, 06:24 AM
It was a JOKE. Sheesh.

Yes, I read the topic, but I was only making a comment on what was posted. I was only able to base that on what was there. As written, I'd make it into a PrC built for mage killing. Additionally, that's a worst case scenario from a munchkin perspective.

warbacon
2007-08-11, 02:00 AM
I think the "flavor" of a Monk, or in this case Martial Artist, should be almost entirely about the unified development of Mind and Body (in that are truly dependent on each other for MAs), and the in-game combat mechanic should be mostly about denying attacks and abilities, typing up opponents, and doing very little HP damage. So, a high level monk could run (very quickly, to make it whatsoever useful) up to a group of enemies and essentially keep them occupied and take minimal damage to himself. I like the idea of Grapples (and Trips!) of Opportunity, and being able to move around a combat in response to attacks. Also, healthy AC bonuses would be nice.

The Paths table is a nice idea ... Maybe we should take a queue from ToB and make a Maneuver list?

I might become motivated to write up something and compare notes. Trying to join a number of games right now, though ...

Keledrath
2007-08-11, 02:41 PM
I like the idea, but not the Nuetral requirement. All kinds of people use martial arts.