Stepping Onto 5E from 3.5

[Thurbane]

So, a bit of background.

I've been playing 3.5 for the last 11 years or so.

Before that, I had played 1E and 2E since the 80s, then after a long break from regular gaming, we formed a new group playing 3.5 (we skipped 3.0 completely).

I own a LOT of 3.X books we haven't even used yet.

...anyhow, as I'm the regular DM, and I've had to stand down from due some work commitments and other changes, one of the guys in the group suggested giving 5E a try (in the interim we've been playing Three Dragon Ante, Lords of Waterdeep and Temple of Elemental Evil Board Game: I believe the last is loosely based on 5E?).

So, if we do take up 5E, what basic advice would you give to a 3.5 player? What do I need to watch out for, what are the best features and so forth.

At least to begin with, assume the game will firmly be core only.

Cheers - T

[Oerlaf]

- You no longer provoke attack of opportunity when you cast a spell or make a ranged attack in a threatened area; you simply get disadvantage on ranged attack rolls
- You do not provoke attack of opportunity from an enemy, if you move staying inside his threatened area.
- there is no move action more
- Disengage is an Action (standard action from 3.5) that allows you to move up to your speed without provoking AoO's
- All spellcasters are now spontaneous - if they prepare spells, they can cast as many of them as much as they want provided they do not exceed their daily allotment of spells
- There is much slower feat progression - unless you are a variant human, you get feats every four levels and you must choose whether you take a feat or you take an ability score improvement, which is +2 to one ability score or +1 to two ability scores.

[LtPowers]

The Temple of Elemental Evil board game (and the others that use the same system) is based on 4e, not 5e.

You will not find 5e to be a huge change from 3.x, but you must forget some of what you know.

Classes and leveling up work exactly the same as in 3.x. In fact the only change to the class lineup from 3.x is the addition of Warlock. Multiclassing is very similar but has been balanced to avoid gimping spellcasters. Race has less of an impact on characters than it used to. Feats are much fewer in both options and opportunities, though each one is much stronger.

Attributes are capped at 20 except in the case of some rare magic items. Starting with a 16 in your primary attribute is normal, but even 15 isn't unheard of.

No more skill ranks -- you either have proficiency in a skill (or in a saving throw) or you don't. There are now six saving throws, one for each attribute.

Spellcasting is similar to 3.x, but each spellcasting class has some unique tweaks to the 3.x system. Also there are now rituals, which are spells that can be cast without using a spell slot (at a cost of increased casting time).

Combat is largely the same but has been tweaked to simplify the action economy. On your turn you get a move and an action, plus you might get a bonus action and you might be able to take a free action. You can use your action to double your move speed, so that provides the old "double move" option. Opportunity attacks are now only triggered when an enemy moves out of your threatened area (rather than leaving any threatened square). Casting a spell or using a ranged weapon does not provoke either.


Powers &8^]

Edit: Oh, I forgot the most important difference. The math has been flattened, so your attack bonus at level 20 is only going to be about +12 or so, compared to about +5 at first level. This means that large numbers of low-level enemies may still be a threat to you at high levels. Individually, they're cannon fodder because of low HP but they can and will hit you if you give them a chance.

[Hrugner]

The major changes from someone whose group has been attempting this change for awhile now.
There are few feats and they won't change your character all that much.
There aren't set DCs for DM's to reference.
skill points and to hit bonus are gone, they're replaced by a proficiency that increases evenly across all classes.
Actions are very simple and combat turns should go very quickly.
Tactical positioning is much less important as there are many ways to ignore cover and flanking isn't a default option.
If something seems complicated, assume you've over complicated it.
You get one action, one bonus action and one reaction per turn. The few things that change this will say so specifically.
Expect some player death at level 1, particularly during the adjustment period.
Feel free to homebrew things. The game is super simple and it's hard to go wrong as long as you have a frame of reference for what you're brewing.
Don't bother trying to figure out what tool proficiency is for.
Read spell preparation and casting stuff carefully, it's different from previous editions while still sounding very similar.

[Spore]

The rules are much less dependant on RAW interpretations. Most spells, feats and interactions are simplified or reiterate rule 0. Want to shoot down the chandelier onto the villain's minions? There aren't HP tables for materials and hardness anymore. The DM simply decides if it's possible and how hard it is. Bounded accuracy: Boni increase much slower. Weapons only get to +3, Proficiency bonus is for class skills as well as BAB. Extra attacks are (later) class features now. Damage is much lower although you can build for nova damage. Monster have a tad less HP but overall fights are longer and require more tactics instead of allowing an ubercharger to nuke down the boss monster in a turn. Nova damage is however still possible (like from a Sorcadin). Skill checks are primarily ability checks now. The players ask if they can apply their proficient skills to it. Trying to get info out of a captive is a charisma check. If you intimidate, persuade or deceit him is up to the characters. Cantrips are much stronger now, lower level spells (up to around 3rd level) behave much like you expect them to. High level spells were rightfully nerfed but you can upcast some lower level spells for enhanced effect (Haste hits 3 targets by default but can hit one additional target if you use a 4th level slow). Fullcasters are Tier 1 and Partial casters are Tier 2. The power gap is smaller. But smart builds can still pull on that power level. Due to smaller numbers choosing the "right" race is more important than ever - esp. since racial advantages are now more pronounced. An Elf has an easier time making those Perception checks, a Dwarf is night impossible to poison - posions are actually dangerous now and divide into damage poisons and stat draining poisons. A Halfling can hide behind people (yeah, I don't know why either).

[Tetrasodium]

5e is a lot like 3.5 with a lot of needkess complexity stripped away. instead of BaB, skill rank allocations, & saving throw progression you now have a proficiency bonus you either get once(proficient/trained), twice (expertise), or none (not proficient). PrC's are gone, the multiclassing system is much more interesting & there is a lot of great info on it in this podcast (http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/adam-bradford-leah-koons-dd-beyond). You don't need to minmax your primary stat like in 3.5 & can do fine with a 16 or so. Instead of the old feat chains where you take useless feat A to qualify for semiuseful feat B to qualify for powerful feat C, 5e has much more powerful feats that incorporate a bit of the whole chain in a lot of cases in exchange for getting less feats & having to pick between feat or stat bump. Stat bumps can be either one +2 or two +1's. Backgrounds can be customized. Tools basically give you the ability to add your proficiency bonus when doing things that involve them along with crafting stuff (base crafting is pretty awful, but this (https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/UA_Downtime.pdf) UA has some great revamps to make it worthy of consideration). Some magic items do(not) require attunement & while you can have any number of magic items (magic rings on each finger & toe for example)m you can only have 3 magic items that require attunement attuned at any one time. you can (de)attune during a 1hr short rest. the long/short rest mechanic is pretty nice & adds some nice options for recovery of various things (hp/spell slots/some class abilities) if you stop and take a short 1hr rest as opposed to taking a long 8 hour rest somewhere safe or draining the cleric's spell slots. spells are not explicitly broken dwn into arcane & divine groupings but are still mostly granted the same way. Casters can multiclass now without murdering their effectiveness because spells often scale based on what level spell slot you cast it from rather than getting replaced by a higher level version. A lot of the cantrips will scale like magic missile did based on the level of the caster while the spells themselves (ie magic missile) tend to include lines like "At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the spell creates one m ore dart for each slot level above 1st." instead.

[JAL_1138]

I don't have a ton of experience with 3.X; I tried it a bit in the early/mid '00s and didn't care for it much, so I stuck to 2e. Played a bit of 4e eventually (stayed in a 4e campaign for about a year, longer than I did in 3.X, although I liked the system even less.)

Now that I'm active in Adventurers' League, I see a lot of people coming in from 3.X and PF. Oddly enough, I think those players seem to have more difficulty acclimating to 5e than the segments of the TSR AD&D crowd that largely skipped 3rd.

There's a lot in 5e that has similar names to bits of 3rd, or works aaaalmost the same but with small differences that add up significantly. "Oh! That's different. In [3rd/Pathfinder], [rule] works like " is one of the more common things I hear. Whereas new-to-tabletop players and grognards alike seem to grok it faster.

I think it's because of how close it is to 3rd in a lot of ways; the 3.PF players have a harder time breaking habits or remembering that Concentration works differently, or that Surprise is a condition that applies during the first round and not a separate surprise round, or that there's no 5ft step, or that you can move between attacks, and all that jazz. The spells in particular have changed a lot; that throws people off too.

I imagine it's a little bit like learning to type on a Dvorak keyboard after years of using QWERTY, versus learning to type on one from little-to-no prior experience. The former is arguably harder because of muscle memory and familiarity with the prior system.

Something I think might help solve that problem is to look it like an entirely new set of rules, and don't assume any knowledge of 3.5 will be relevant. (In reality a lot of it [i]does carry over, but it's easier to learn it, I think, if you assume it won't initially). Treat even the most familiar terms as though they're altogether new, and only look at the 5e version; ignore what you know from 3rd. Approach it as a new game rather than an update.

[rollingForInit]

I'd recommend reading something like this:

https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/29tysg/35e_to_5e_summary_of_differences/

An important thing to consider is that because of Bounded Accuracy (e.g. AC/attack bonuses/etc don't increase indefinitely) you don't have to feel the need to maximise your primary ability score. While it's optimal to get it to 20, it's not necessary. Leaving it at 16 works fine. Starting with 14 or so is also perfectly playable.

[Corran]

Some things might seem weird and wrong at first (for me it was the feats vs ASI thing, ie you can take a feat instead of improving your abilities), but I think that if you give it some time you'll get used to it and that it will stop bothering you (at least that happened in my case).

Some things I still dont like (skill system), but 5e was not the first edition to implement these changes, so I guess I had time to accept such changes.

[Kane0]

Don't we have a guide for this stickied somewhere?

[Thrudd]

There are far fewer trap options, much less need for thinking about optimizing or planning out a character's career 20 levels in advance. You don't really need to look out for anything - you can pick pretty much any class and subclass and have a useful and relevant character. There are no "best features". Some people have their favorites and things they don't like, of course, but there's nothing you really need to worry about. Don't assume things work the way they did in 3e, read the actual rules, and everything will be clear.

[Spore]

Also something that seems oddly specific but wil prove useful info: Fighters (and Rogues) are actually good now. Dipping Fighter levels might be a sight you have to deal with on a constant basis.

[JAL_1138]

Also something that seems oddly specific but wil prove useful info: Fighters (and Rogues) are actually good now. Dipping Fighter levels might be a sight you have to deal with on a constant basis.

Couple of other classes that had a bad rap in 3.X but are good in 5e:

Monks are good, too. I'm not familiar enough with 3.X to confirm, but popular opinion seems to be that they were basically non-functional in 3.X. The 5e monk actually works, and works well. Four Elements is a little too starved for ki points, especially in comparison to the other subclasses, but functional. Shadow monks and Open Hand monks are quite good, and the SCAG monk paths are good too. Don't see quite as many dips as Fighter or Rogue since Monks are a bit less front-loaded, but they're well worth playing.

Paladins are really, really, amazingly good. Front-line half-casters with excellent nova capability, good healing ability, a strong spell list with some unique spells, and one of the stronger class features in the game with +Cha to all saving throws (including death saves) in a 15ft radius starting at level 6. There are several varieties now, each following a different Oath; the Oaths are way less restrictive than the 3e code of conduct, and they're not restricted to any given alignment.


Classes that were good in 3rd but have been reworked/rebalanced quite a bit:
Bards aren't dependent on Performance anymore; they're fullcasters with really great skillmonkey abilities as well. In addition to Expertise (double proficiency) in a few skills, they also get half-proficiency (rounded down) to any nonproficient ability checks (incliding Initiative, and if they take Counterspell, to that check too). They're arguably better debuffers/controllers than buffers (although they've still got some great buff spells, and Bardic Inspiration dice). They can also heal nearly as well as a Cleric (except Life Domain, which out-heals any other subclass, including the other Clerics). They have an ability to yoink a few spells from any other class' spell list at certain levels, which makes them one of the most versatile and powerful classes with the right picks.

Sorcerers are the only class that gets metamagic, and metamagic has been toned down (although it's quite powerful). Amusingly enough, Sorcerers are probably the strongest combat buffers in the game thanks to the Twin Spell metamagic, which allows for casting two single-target Concentration buffs at once, something the Concentration mechanic prevents any other class from doing.

[furby076]

Detect evil does not detect lawful alignment. A paladin detect evil detects fiends, undead, celestial. Why they didn't rename it is beyond me. Given that, reread all spells. Dont assume because a spell did X in 3.5 that it will still do X. Detect evil is one example.

magic items are not required, but your players may want them.

dont allow flanking optional rule. It grants advantage (roll 2x, pick best roll). Players may gripe at first, but the first time you send a swarm of kobolds at them, they will realize the group with more bodies will most likely win,

Don't allow multiclassing to start. Don't allow unearthed arcana to start, but if you do, don't allow multi classing. Ua is not playtested for multi classing. One exception. ..allow unearthed arcana rangers. The book rangers suck... its well known, and even the game makers admit it.

battlemat is still very useful, especially with feats like sentinal, but can be skipped if you do theatre of the mind very well

[Kane0]

- Proficiency bonus is used for skill/ability checks, attacks and saving throws instead of BAB, save progressions and skill points. It's all based off Stat + Proficiency, and the numbers are lower and scale slower. HP and abilities/options are the primary differentiation between low and high levels.
- You have a saving throw type for each attribute.
- You can't have a stat higher than 20 by normal means, nor a stat higher than 30 by any means.
- Movement is not an action, and actions can happen between movement. Bonus actions are like swifts, reactions are like immediates. No action can be traded for another type. You can also make one interaction (grab a weapon, open a door, etc) per turn for free.
- You cannot delay, only ready an action.
- Only one thing provokes an AoO: Moving out of a creatures reach.
- Learn the advantage / disadvantage mechanic, it replaces 90% of fiddly +1s and +2s.
- Concentration is a thing you need to know well. Most buffs, debuffs and control need concentration, and you can concentrate on one thing at a time. You have a chance to lose concentration each time you take damage.
- All casting is 'spontaneous', though the list of spells available for you to choose from may change based on how your class handles it.
- There are two kinds of rest: short and long. There is expected to be two short rests for every long on average, which is important to maintain balance short rest classes (monk, warlock) against long rest classes (paladin, sorcerer).
- Encounter design is also different. A CR 6 enemy is a medium challenge for a level 6 party of 4, not a medium challenge for a single level 6 character. You are expected to deal with half a dozen or so medium encounters on an adventuring day, not one or two hard ones.
- Everybody can heal via hit die, which are spent during short rests.
- Dying works differently. You only die outright when you take damage equal to your max HP in one hit after reaching 0. When reduced to 0 you make saving throws, three successes stabilizes you and 3 failures you die. Taking damage while making death saves counts as one failure.
- Damage resistance, reduction and vulnerability is simplified. It's half damage, doesn't exist (as such) and double damage respectively.
- Don't use any optional rules to start with. This includes multiclassing and feats.
- The core math of the game does not expect you to get magic items by default. You can play through levels 1 to 20 without seeing a magic item at all, anything you get/give is a bonus.
- Levels 1-3 are supposed to go by very quickly, and 4-5 fairly quickly. The majority of PC time is angled to be spent in the level 6-11 range.
- Due to reduced scaling of basic numbers (skills, attacks, damage, AC) it is expected that low CR creatures remain a threat to higher level parties in significant numbers. This is intended.

Edit:
Golden Rule: Thou shalt not assume to know that which shares a name
Sneak attack works differently. Protection from Evil works differently. Critical hits work differently. Do not skim over things that look familiar because they are almost all different in subtle ways that become very apparent in play.

[cooperjer]

I didn't DM in 3.5 or prior editions, but 5e is a game of attrition. I've read that 3.5 was "rocket tag." 5e is more like a grinding wheel. The DMG p 82 has a table that lists XP values for easy, medium, hard, and deadly. Assume that these adjectives are for newer players with a team of PCs that does not include a barbarian or a paladin. I've had more reliable outcomes by using the Adventuring Day XP table on p 84 of the DMG. An easy encounter is 7% or less. A medium encounter ranges from 7% to 10%. A hard encounter is from 10% to 25%. A deadly encounter is from 25% to 45%.

As other have stated, I'm going to reiterate a need to read the spells, class features, and magic items (if you use them) and assume the spell, feature, or item does nothing more and nothing less than stated. One example of confusion that came about was the use with a Bead of Force trapping an NPC. The NPC had an Oil of Etheralness available and used that to escape the sphere created by the bead of force. In 3.5 the bead of force prevented movement in the Etheral plane. In 5e it does not.

[Arkhios]

Detect evil does not detect lawful alignment. A paladin detect evil detects fiends, undead, celestial. Why they didn't rename it is beyond me.

What book have you been reading? The paladin feature akin to detect evil is renamed as Divine Sense. The spell is also renamed as Detect Evil and Good.

Note: these two are not the same thing; Divine Sense is not a spell!

[JAL_1138]

Not to start a tier argument, but in my opinion (and keeping in mind I only have a little familiarity with 3.X), it seems like the tier range, as I understand it, has been compressed into the 2-3 range. There may be a couple of upper-4s.

Fullcasters (excepting Warlocks) are Tier 2 (nowhere near as many ways to break the game, but there are still a couple, and they have a lot of versatility and power).

Sorcerers are at the lower end of Tier 2 due to having few Spells Known compared to other fullcasters. Metamagic and other class features do help make up for it.

Warlocks are at the bottom of Tier 2 or upper end of Tier 3, or maybe a "Tier 2.5." Their casting mechanics and spell list make them a bit less versatile in some ways, but they get a different recharge mechanic and strong combat options.

Pretty much everyone else except Frenzy Barbarians, Four Elements Monks, Champion Fighters, and both types of (non- UA revised) Rangers are solidly at Tier 3, with Paladins and Rogues probably at the top of Tier 3.

Frenzy Barbarians, Four Elements Monks, Champion Fighters, and both Rangers (with Hunter being the stronger of the two and Beastmaster just being wonky) are either at the bottom end of Tier 3 (where I'd rank them) or at the top end of Tier 4 (it'd be reasonable to put them there; they're still quite usable and not something to shun by any stretch, but are either not quite as strong or not quite as versatile, or both, as other subclasses are. I'd stress again that they're still very playable, even in a party full of fullcasters, and are only a bit weaker in general, not outright bad, and can be very effective in the right circumstances or with good player skill).

Tier 1, Tier 5, and Tier 6 are simply gone. Nobody's OP enough to be Tier 1, and nobody's useless enough to fall into Tier 5 or 6.

[Âmesang]

Speaking of poisons (late to the party, I know), but a poison applied to a weapon "retains potency for one minute before drying"—so you can't just apply it to your weapon in the morning and let it sit till some later opportunity.

However you can apply it one weapon or three pieces of ammunition and (unless I've been understanding it incorrectly this whole time) a poisoned weapon remains effective for that full minute instead of being a "one and done" deal as before; also you no longer need any kind of poison proficiency to safely apply it to a weapon (only as a substitute for Nature checks if trying to harvest poison from a creature).

[bulbaquil]

The big ones IMO:

Bounded Accuracy means enemies are threats for a larger level range than they used to be.

Movement: It isn't an action, it is just something you can do during your turn, and you can split up your movement before & after attacking. ("Everyone has Spring Attack", if you will.) There is no such thing as a 5-foot step anymore.

Attacks of opportunity: Barring special feats or features, the ONLY time you get an AoO is if someone LEAVES your threat range without withdrawing. They can dance around it all they want or cast spells within it all they want.

Challenge ratings work differently - in general, a CR X enemy in 5e is roughly equivalent to and means the same thing as a CR (X+2) enemy in 3.5e/PF.

Spell effects are different, so you'll need to re-read the spells. Just because a spell does X in 3.5e/PF doesn't mean it does X in 5e, even if it has the same name. (Example: barkskin now says "your minimum AC is 16", not "you get a +2 to AC").

Feats are an OPTIONAL rule that your DM may or may not allow.

Possession of magic items is NOT a core assumption of the game. Any magic items you gain can be construed as a bonus.

[Thurbane]

Thanks everyone for the input. :smallsmile:

...it's looking at the moment like we are sticking with board games until I'm ready to DM again, but I am interested in giving 5E a try at some point.