OOC: The Law (discusion thread)

[Admiral_Kelly]

There's been alot of talk about changes in the Town. One thing that seems to need changing is the law, hence the creation of this thread. Anything pertaining to the legal system within the Town can be discussed here.

In my opinion, we need more rules regulating crimes. Different degrees for murder, new laws prohibiting considerably evil actions that are currently legal, increased penalties, etc. I also think we need to clear up issues regarding trials and jail sentences.

[blackout]

Laws against mind control. :smallannoyed: And I suggest doubling all sentences and fines to really ram the point home that people shouldn't do certain things.

[Shabal]

I wholeheartedly agree. Among the evil actions that need to be added should be Arson, (possibly gambling?) (possibly mind controlling on an unwilling subject?) and multiple others.
I also agree with Blackout, because otherwise people will develop tendencies to do increasingly random, stupid things out of boredom.
I also think we need a new court procedure, simply because
1. The first one isn't as realistic based on current court systems, and
2. Gwen seems to be the only active Judge, and she isn't on often. We definitely need more Judges.
3. The lack of a jury, and all. That can probably be left out, though.

[Artemis97]

A few new laws do need to be written up, I agree. And sentences do need to be changed. I'm not entirely sure how effective fines are as no one really keeps track of how much money they have.

As for judges, we do have Draken and I think Bookboy is putting one of his characters in too. Although I don't know what status Draken has being in jail for murder and all.

[Tiben]

Yes, Money is not really an problem with most people. But might I put forward using the death sentiance in extream cases? Or perhaps an abailty to ask for a trial by combat?

[blackout]

:smallannoyed: Ok, trial by combat, no. And, for people who are in positions of power, like judges, who break the law, they should lose those positions of power. If they break the law themselves, they should have no more authority. At least, that's what I think.

[Shabal]

Trial by combat?
As awesome as that sounds, I don't think it would work that great...
I agree that fines probably aren't an issue for people who don't bother to RP their money, but maybe community service can be an option for some people.
Oh, and Graffiti, Vandalism, and Trespassing. I'm not sure if any of those are already up there.
I'd be glad to put forward one of my characters for Judgehood, but I do think the procedure needs to change first.
Blackout, good idea, the ability to be impeached. Or would it be possible for voters to impeach the judges?
Plus, I like the idea of the death sentence in extreme cases like Terrorism or Genocide.

[blackout]

No, no impeachment, they just lose their authority and position when they break the law. Plain and simple, being a Judge is not a get out of jail free card. :smallannoyed:

[Artemis97]

What do we do with Repeat offenders? oh and I don't think execution is a good idea, I mean that's basically forcing someone to kill off their own character. That's no fun.

[blackout]

For repeat offenders, I'm thinking doubled sentences every time. :smallannoyed: When you get arrested, double sentence. It'll work to rehabilitate those really bad eggs.

[Shabal]

What about a rehab center? Maybe a Juvenile Detention center?
I like the repeat offenders idea, but it should be cut down to adding one-half to the sentence, instead of doubling it.
I still like the execution idea, but I think it should be the player's choice whether or not to execute the character.
Okay, no impeachment.

[Pwenet]

Maybe something like a universal power/magical inhibitor for a certain amount of time while they perform community service or help out in various places.

[Draken]

Vandalism already exists.

I have already sugested a diferentiation in Murder sentences, basicaly the diference between Intentional and unintentional murder.

Death sentence is not possible, if you don't record, there is also the possibility for the criminal to escape, if he does something that would pace him in a death sentence, he would do so wanting to kill the character, or intending to make him run from the law forever.

Some characters don't have money, and when they are unable to pay the fines due to this, nothing happens (Necromoris) this proves that the fine sistem is pointless, or at least should be enforced a bit more.

People die and revive constantly out there. And Judges kill to, yes I killed NPCs, but it wasn't intentional and I did what was in my power to bring them back (and I explicitated that they had no memories of their time "dead" or some time before death, a side effect of being obliterated, and that wasn't enought to avoid "disgusted glares" of the NPCs later... I don't even know why I allowed, they where (kinda) my NPCs after all.). A judje shouldn't be striped of his power (and that actually isn't much if you know) unless he comits a willing, premeditated and stated throught investigation, act that goes against a major law, or against the major well-fare of the community, and yes, I am tring to retain my job, and consider the fact that I could have made everyone forget the deaths of these guys, and you know how, and you know that if it wasn't freeform here, I would succed.

[Shabal]

Vandalism already exists.

I have already sugested a diferentiation in Murder sentences, basicaly the diference between Intentional and unintentional murder.
Agreed, possibly other variations.



Death sentence is not possible, if you don't record, there is also the possibility for the criminal to escape, if he does something that would place him in a death sentence, he would do so wanting to kill the character, or intending to make him run from the law forever.
And he would do so willingly; the police could give him the option of whether or not the death sentence would be placed on his head.
Of course, the run from the law forever thing is possible. Any ideas on that?


Some characters don't have money, and when they are unable to pay the fines due to this, nothing happens (Necromoris) this proves that the fine sistem is pointless, or at least should be enforced a bit more.
The only characters that do not have money are the ones that RP so. Other people tend to gravitate towards having unlimited amounts of money; therefore the fine system is probably pointless, agreed.


People die and revive constantly out there. And Judges kill to, yes I killed NPCs, but it wasn't intentional and I did what was in my power to bring them back (and I explicitated that they had no memories of their time "dead" or some time before death, a side effect of being obliterated, and that wasn't enought to avoid "disgusted glares" of the NPCs later... I don't even know why I allowed, they where (kinda) my NPCs after all.). A judje shouldn't be striped of his power (and that actually isn't much if you know) unless he comits a willing, premeditated and stated throught investigation, act that goes against a major law, or against the major well-fare of the community, and yes, I am tring to retain my job, and consider the fact that I could have made everyone forget the deaths of these guys, and you know how, and you know that if it wasn't freeform here, I would succed.
[/quote]
Then perhaps the Town Council, or maybe just a council, should discuss about whether the judge commited an intentional or unintentional crime.

[Admiral_Kelly]

I have a suggestion for the death penalty: A judge can rule death if the crimes are great enough (such as mass murder). If sentenced to death, the convicted player files an automatic appeal in which he decides the outcome (either he is given death or imprisonment). This way it is fair.

Also, here's a crime I want to add to the list: Ringleading. If you are a head of a criminal organization and you get convicted you are given additional jail time.

[Pwenet]

If a judge is accused of a crime, first of all I feel that his/her/its power should be suspended during the course of the trial. After the trial, depending on the verdict, it can be restored/taken away completely.

[blackout]

I like the Ringleading thing, AK.

[Shabal]

I like Pwenet's idea, but I think it should be expanded to where the Judge's power can be suspended for a certain number of trials.
AK: Would that be Criminal Solicitation, or Conspiracy? Either way, I like it.
I also think Criminal Facilitation should be added. If the police are looking for someone and somebody willingly hides them, they should face a small sentence depending on the crime the hidden person is guilty of.
Oh, and Conspiracy against the government.

[Tiben]

When I put forward The death pelinety I ment with so tough restrictions to keep people from just walking down the street killing ever NPC they might run into.
Also There should be more than just jail. Like an Insain insliem for character like Tiben.

[Shabal]

Tiben, we can't just tell people to kill their characters unless they agree. Otherwise, it's godmodding.
However, if they commit something incriminating enough to earn a death penalty, if they don't agree to the death sentence, they'll be locked away for a long time.
The asylum might not actually be granted by the Town, like the police are. It probably won't be part of the government.
However, it's a good idea, maybe it could be a branch out of the hospital?
Also, some other ideas for crimes; General Harassment, Disturbance of Religious Services (I know there aren't any temples any more, but based on past cases...), Perjury (lying under oath or to a police officer?), Criminal Sale (of drugs/illegal weapons)
Come to think of it, some weapon restrictions for civilians might not hurt.

[Admiral_Kelly]

Actually, sometimes it is godmoding not to kill off a charachter!

[Pwenet]

In regards to the death penalty, I'll like to bring up "The Joker" from Batman.

In Batman, "The Joker" has probably a 4 figure at least body count, has been captured several times, treated, escaped, killed again, rinse and repeat. In the real world he would have been put down long ago, yet since he is a PC in comics essentially, he lives.

The same applies here in a way. We might have a character who does similar things, kills, captured, tried rehabilitation, escapes, kills, rinse and repeat. At which point do we take the next step for the sake of plot.

If you have a character that is committing such crimes, they should be prepared for the character to get the ultimate punishment. Heck, if they really want to then they could try to bring the character back somehow after the execution.

[Artemis97]

Let's stay on topic please, Admiral.

I like what you're coming up with, Shabal. Perjury is good, and so is the harrassment and disturbance things. I don't know what counts as an Illegal drug in this town, and as it's mostly made up of the adventuring types I don't think we can take their weapons away. Perhaps just ask to keep all weapons sheathed in public places?

[blackout]

:smallamused: I know a drug that could be considered illegal, fresh from my new character's home plane.

[Vhaidara]

A few new laws do need to be written up, I agree. And sentences do need to be changed. I'm not entirely sure how effective fines are as no one really keeps track of how much money they have.

As for judges, we do have Draken and I think Bookboy is putting one of his characters in too. Although I don't know what status Draken has being in jail for murder and all.

I thing Exachix has resigned, meaning he's in, as I got you and wxdruid before elections ended.

[Draken]

The elections didn't end, the nominations ended, the elections will go until Monday.

[LordVader]

May I say something? If a judge is thrown in jail for murder, they shouldn't be a judge anymore. Judges are supposed to uphold the law, not break it, and breaking it in such a serious way should result in serious consequences for that judge.
Also, on the subject of mind control. We need laws against this. AK has a flayer that requested a trial, since he was thrown in jail for MC'ing several people. Now, I treated this as assualt, and possibly it could be kidnapping. But I suggest we make mind control second only to murder on the list of crimes.

[Shabal]

Perhaps just ask to keep all weapons sheathed in public places?
Unless used to defend oneself. Sure.

:smallamused: I know a drug that could be considered illegal, fresh from my new character's home plane.
Would make a nice subplot.

May I say something? If a judge is thrown in jail for murder, they shouldn't be a judge anymore. Judges are supposed to uphold the law, not break it, and breaking it in such a serious way should result in serious consequences for that judge.
Again, what about suspending the Judge's power for an amount of time?

Also, on the subject of mind control. We need laws against this. AK has a flayer that requested a trial, since he was thrown in jail for MC'ing several people. Now, I treated this as assualt, and possibly it could be kidnapping. But I suggest we make mind control second only to murder on the list of crimes.
I think it would count as Assault, but not kidnapping unless the person is rendered helpless and imprisoned.
I'm not sure how active most people in the TTPD are, but what about giving offenders (or multiple offenders) criminal records and keeping them on the front page?

[LordVader]

The Town police? I can do that. In fact, I'm considering keeping records on Tiben and NecroMoris, since they've each been jailed about 3 times now, and just don't get it. And I agree, Draken's power should be suspended for a period of time.

I just added a "Repeat Offenders" section to the Station. Currently, Tiben and NecroMoris are there, each having multiple, repeated counts of murder, assualt, and battery. I suggest that penalties start increasing the more visits to jail you have, beginning at 3.

[Shabal]

Since the current lack of Judges and the slight abundance of trials right now, it might be possible to give Draken an exception until we work out how long a Judge's powers should be suspended in certain cases.
I think it should begin at two, but they have to be fairly serious crimes.

[LordVader]

Tiben has several counts of murder, assualt and battery from his defense of Sorry.
NecroMoris has over 5 counts of murder, and at least 5 of battery. I think that qualifies as serious.

[Shabal]

I know that NecroMoris' and Tiben's counts are serious. I just thought that if it should begin at two for other repeat offenders, their crimes have to be at least Murder/Assault. Multiple Misdemeanors shouldn't be enough.

[LordVader]

Of course. Just to let everyone know, I am currently attempting to work out a system for "repeat offenders" of serious crimes- I will present this to the new Town Council after it is formed.

[Shabal]

Oh...do the ideas from this thread need to be presented to the Council, or can they just be immediately implemented?

[LordVader]

I think the Council has to approve any law changes...:smallconfused:

[Draken]

Five of the seven candidates are speaking in this thread, and rex is probably reading it, even if he doesn't post a thing. I doubt this will need to be presented to the council in any way other than IC.

[AmberVael]

I suggest doubling all sentences and fines to really ram the point home that people shouldn't do certain things.

This has always been a problem. The laws you see now are actually the result of me saying the same thing... I think more creative punishments are need.


Yes, Money is not really an problem with most people. But might I put forward using the death sentiance in extream cases? Or perhaps an abailty to ask for a trial by combat?

Last I knew, we did have death penalty, but the judge is only capable of issuing it if the player is willing to kill off their character OOC.


Maybe something like a universal power/magical inhibitor for a certain amount of time while they perform community service or help out in various places.

Actually, I implemented this myself. In the police station you'll see this section for parole and weapon restriction:

Parole and Weapon Restriction
Parole is served simply by being scryed on by the police for the duration of your parole. Weapon restriction is accomplished by wearing a bracelet provided by the OmniShop. This bracelet prevents you from using any aggressive magic or drawing weapons ((Aggressive magic includes harmful or unlawful uses of any magic)) The bracelet also prevents you from attempting to harm or remove the bracelet directly or indirectly. These weapon restricting bracelets are made of adamantine and are unable to be taken off normally by anyone other than a police officer.
The lengths of time for parole are listed next to the corresponding crimes.


I think the Council has to approve any law changes...:smallconfused:

The council is OOC. The Town laws are IC. Last time the laws were changed (by me) I simply had the police chief and the mayor talk IC and change them.
Though getting council permission might not be a bad idea. Good to hear people's opinions on what you are doing, after all. :smallsmile:

[LordVader]

I think the most critical thing for "repeat offenders" is really cracking down via the weapon restrictions and scrying, to make sure that they can't even try to hurt anyone.
Also, more creative punishments are needed. All jailtime does is bore the person, and since everyone has at least 2 characters, it doesn't even really mean anything, since you can just use the other PC while they're in jail. Perhaps implementing community service, or some such, in addition to fines, etc?

[Tiben]

I just added a "Repeat Offenders" section to the Station. Currently, Tiben and NecroMoris are there, each having multiple, repeated counts of murder, assualt, and battery. I suggest that penalties start increasing the more visits to jail you have, beginning at 3.

Shouldn't there be a distinct difference between first and second and third degree murder? considering that most of Tiben's kills were accidential.
And shouldn't you keep records on everybody that goes to jail.

I also think that repeate murders should have a perminate wepons restriction.

and yes everybody I relise that you can't force someone to kill off thir character.

[Shabal]

This has always been a problem. The laws you see now are actually the result of me saying the same thing... I think more creative punishments are need.

Perhaps implementing community service, or some such, in addition to fines, etc?
Again, I still like the Community service idea.


Last I knew, we did have death penalty, but the judge is only capable of issuing it if the player is willing to kill off their character OOC.
I don't think the dealth penalty has been issued to anyone yet...I just scrolled through the Courthouse thread.

Shouldn't there be a distinct difference between first and second and third degree murder? considering that most of Tiben's kills were accidential.
That's a good idea. There should be first and second degree murders, and manslaughter.

[AmberVael]

Meh... I tried community service with one of my characters recently. It is mostly just like jail time unless you really think of something creative to do with it.

And the death sentence was never officially proclaimed, but I do believe it has been used once or twice (one of which was on a character of mine, so I should know. :smallwink:)


The thing to really consider is that the judge uses the punishments listed as guidelines, not ultimate rules. The judge has the final say in what punishments the criminal recieves (which is why we only have one thing for murder- we'd just let the judge decide how severe it was).

[Admiral_Kelly]

Another thing; necromancy and the dead.

There would be the crime of Unlawful Necromancy. This crime would be animating a body not in your legal possession. There would also be a crime of Body Snatching which would be stealing the corpse of another. Corpse Mutilation would be another crime for destroying or otherwise harming a dead person.

Deanimateing an unintelligent undead should count as vandalism, not murder.
If, however, the unintelligent undead is clearly hostile then the one who deanimated it dose not commit a crime.
If an unintelligent non-hostile undead is deanimated but was unlawfully animated in the first place then there is no penalty if there is no damage done to the body.
If damage was caused to the body of a deanimated non-hostile unlawfully raised undead, then those who caused the damage are subject to Corpse Mutilation.

So that necromancers do not go out of business, bodies at the police station that cannot be raised or claimed after ten days are sold at a cost. Those who purchase the bodies can use them however they wish.

[Metis]

So that necromancers do not go out of business, bodies at the police station that cannot be raised or claimed after ten days are sold at a cost. Those who purchase the bodies can use them however they wish.
I can see Mortessa taking advantage of that...

[Tiben]

Perhaps we should take a lesson from Hammribe with eye for an eye tooth for a tooth type laws
-If you hurt me I am alloud to hurt you
-If you steal from me I'm alloud to steal from you
-If you kill my family member, I can kill your family member, If you do not have that coresponding family member I kill another family member of equil or greater vaule
-ect.

[Shabal]

I definitely like all of AK's ideas.

Perhaps we should take a lesson from Hammribe with eye for an eye tooth for a tooth type laws
-If you hurt me I am alloud to hurt you
-If you steal from me I'm alloud to steal from you
-If you kill my family member, I can kill your family member, If you do not have that coresponding family member I kill another family member of equil or greater vaule
-ect.
...um, no. Just because someone hurts you, doesn't mean it's justified for you to hurt them back, especially the family member thing.
Unless it's self defense, in which case you can kill the person trying to kill you or assault the person trying to assault you.
The stealing thing still counts as theft.

[blackout]

Tiben, if we went with that, the whole town would fall into chaos with justified crimes. :smallannoyed: Simply put, no.

[LordVader]

So that necromancers do not go out of business, bodies at the police station that cannot be raised or claimed after ten days are sold at a cost. Those who purchase the bodies can use them however they wish.

:smallannoyed:
No. Just...no. That would be completely vile, and disrupt everything the police stand for in Town. It would be absolutely deplorable IC for the police to hand over the bodies of the murdered to necromancers, who will make them undead, and desecrate their bodies, instead of putting them peacefully to rest. Sorry, but hell, no.

[Admiral_Kelly]

Okay, I say we open this up to a debate:

If you have a body that you are going to dispose of anyway and another has a practical and legal use for it, then what is wrong with selling it to him?

[LordVader]

The only thing is, that pratical and legal use (it being legal is debatable) happens to include desecrating the body through unholy magic. There's no way the police would even consider this IC, at least, I know mine wouldn't. And exactly why is creating undead practical, either? What does the necromancer need them for so badly that he will deny bodies a peaceful rest?

[metakirb]

what about "forgetting" to add anything about grave robbing that way necromancers can have thier bodies at a price still and the police don't need to go through a moral crisis unless they find out

[LordVader]

Grave robbing would be disturbing the peace, I believe. And I always thought that was mostly how they got their undead here, as the police don't go around asking them where they came from.
AK, I can't believe you seriously think that idea would work IC.:smallannoyed:

[Osnagard]

What is a body more than base organic compounds though? Nothing really, we eat the bodies of dead animals, and don't call that desicration. It's a personal view, nothing more. The Soul/spirit/whathave you is gone, the empty shell destroys itself anyway, why does it matter what happens to it?

As for changes to the law, I guess it's gonna depend mostly on what we can live with. Trial by combat (I know this was already discussed) would be a great way I think, as would trial by ordeal. In fact, even a gladiator type punishment system would be cool. IF we choose to go with the jail time type puishments I don't see any real way to make it interesting for the player, nor do I see a way to keep the player form simlpy ignoring the captured character untill the sentence is over.

[Admiral_Kelly]

Vader, bodies don't think or feel; they are inanimate. Making them animate won't make the feel bad or hurt them, in fact most zombies do not feel pain.

Here are some practical uses for the dead:

-Servants or workers that never tire or need to be paid.
-Able to make little Johnny and Janey feel better when their cat or granddad dies (people on TV claim they want to bring back their loved ones be means of cloning; and we all know that the clone will have a different consciousness).
-Since they do not require oxegeon, they could save people trapped in mines and such.
-Great for parties.

And I know your charachters IC are Lawful Neutral, if the law says to sell the dead they will do so even if they don't like it.

[LordVader]

Community service would be the most realistic, non-tyrannic punishment, however.
And IC, the police would see it as selling away the bodies of those who have been murdered to people who are just going to desecrate them and use them, most likely, to attack others or the police later on. As opposed to giving them a peaceful burial. And I submit that in a fantasy setting like Town, burial or not might be a factor in determing the afterlife for at least some people. The fact is, selling those bodies would make the police seem cruel and corrupt to the vast majority of citizens.

And don't count on Raneus, especially, to sell bodies, even if the law says so. Just because he's LN, doesn't mean he's always following LN to the letter. Also, their grandpa isn't much use if he doesn't have his own mind.
You know who else can save people trapped in mines? Someone with a breathing spell or a helmet.

Also, this "practical and legal use" only benefits the necromancer. What if the family of the victim doesn't want the member to be undead? What if they want to be able to visit their graves and pay their respects?

[Osnagard]

As for practical use I'm inclined to agree with AK.

Think of every single dangerous job out there. If there was a way to take those jobs from people who can be hurt, possibly killed, and give them do people who can't feel pain and can not die, which would your morals tell you to do?

I don't know about you but so far as I can figure it, to quote GRRM "What is dead can never die".

[LordVader]

Which is why we have golems, robots, and elementals, that don't require a person's body to be desecrated in order for them to be made.
And when was the last time a necromancer in this Town acted selflessly to save others? All NecroMoris has done is kill other people with his undead servants. You'll have a tough time proving to the Police that necromancers can use undead for interests other then their own.

[Metis]

Also, this "practical and legal use" only benefits the necromancer. What if the family of the victim doesn't want the member to be undead? What if they want to be able to visit their graves and pay their respects?
...then they go and claim them within the time period they are allowed?

[Osnagard]

Osnagard used his powers for good... well for the most part he did at least.

[metakirb]

perhaps necromancy could in the end have some research benefits, including perhaps information about prolonging life? Keep in mind hat necromancy isn't just about undead inions and skeletons, it's general magic revolving around death, and the study of death

[LordVader]

The police already have ready access to things like robots, elementals, and golems, that can perform these tasks that you are saying undead would be perfect for. Also, undead are undeniably evil. The police are, at the very least, Neutral, but on the Good side. (except for maybe Rex.:smalltongue:)

Also, necromancy does not prolong life. It is solely the art of bringing back to life the dead. Examples would be liches. They prolonged their life, but had to essential die and sell their souls (committed unspeakably evil act, so they're going to the Nine Hells when they inevitably die) to do so. Science offers far more potential for prolonging longevity then necromancy.

[Admiral_Kelly]

Also, this "practical and legal use" only benefits the necromancer. What if the family of the victim doesn't want the member to be undead? What if they want to be able to visit their graves and pay their respects?Already addressed:

"So that necromancers do not go out of business, bodies at the police station that cannot be raised or claimed after ten days are sold at a cost. Those who purchase the bodies can use them however they wish."

And NecoMoris is a known criminal; so they are not inclined to sell to him. In fact I am getting sick of playing him myself.

[Osnagard]

What you are suggesting is outlawing necromancy. Within the rules of the town you can't really do that as it would make somone's otherwise perfectly legal character no longer welcome.

[metakirb]

Like my newest character, (yes another one) He is a necromancer, but he's not a stereotypical necromancer, he studies death to find out how to stop it

[Osnagard]

Indeed, as metakirb says, adn my character Osnagard. Who is at the moment dead, but that certainly doesn't mean I don't have any other plans for him. He's neutral, because while his art is evil, he uses it for good.

[LordVader]

I am not suggesting outlawing necromancy. I am saying that suggesting the police sell bodies to necromancers instead of burying them like they deserve is extremely distasteful. Although, in a sense, you probably could justify outlawing it, since necromany is evil, but it would be unfair to those who wanted to have necromancers.

And metakirb, necromancy does not provide any way to stop death.:smalltongue: You can only bring back those who have died.

[Draken]

In the second edition of D&D, all Healing and ressurrection spells belonged to the necromancy school. The good cleric who saved your life was a necromancer, the evil cleric who made you sick was a necromancer, the neutral cleric who didn't move a crap was a necromancer. Necromancy was a very good school that time... Now they changed it only to deal with negative energy, the old times, when it also dealt with positive energy, they where good times...

And I must agree with LV in a few points. We work in a (technically) medieval scenario with lots of temples, none of those would allow "desacrating the corpses of sentients", and Raising the dead is indeed an evil act, the spells HAVE the [Evil] descriptor. But again, if no one claims the corpses, what we do to it? cremate? place in a tomb with no headline? Give to the hospital for medical studies? That is something to be thinked on.

And vader, we can use corpses to make ocnstructs, mainly the Flesh Golem and the Corpse Golem.

Edit @V: Metis, Clone cannot revive someone who died of old age.

[Metis]

Necromantic spells have many more uses besides creating undead, LordVader. Indeed, it is entirely possible, even very feasible to create a necromancer who uses no evil spells, and whose spells are in fact focused on destroying undead.
Take the spell "Undeath to Death." for example.

There are spells that indicate that one could extend life without turning someone undead. Gentle Repose, for example. While it is meant to work on corpses, I could easily see it being adjusted to help the human body. The Clone spell is also not an evil spell, and would accomplish the same task.

[metakirb]

since necromany is evil, but it would be unfair to those who wanted to have necromancers.

No, stereotypical necromancy is evil, most people are confused as to exactly what all of necromancy is, necromancy itself isn't evil, generally it's how it's USED thats evil

[LordVader]

This is a direct quote from the Player's Handbook.


Animate Dead
Necromancy [Evil]

You were saying?:smalltongue:

[Metis]

Edit @V: Metis, Clone cannot revive someone who died of old age.
That's right, but neither can any sort of clerical magics. The idea is that necromancy COULD feasibly research a spell to prolong life and prevent death from old age.

And Vader, that is one of the few evil necromancy spells. Outlawing undead is one thing, necromancy as a whole is quite another.

[metakirb]

so the D&D handbook says necromancy is evil, great, well you're more likely to find that it's applications are evil, not the concept of neromancy itself, and i'm not budging on this point, necromancy is not evil!

[Osnagard]

*sigh*

But I don't think outlawing undead should be allowed either. When you have lemons you make lemonaide, when you have the power to raise the dead you make zombies. It's not a question of machines, constructs and golems being better, it's a question of "What do I have the power to do?"

[LordVader]

Of course, Animate Dead is the basis of Necromancy. This all strikes me as kinda ironic, since the Magic: The Gathering deck I play is based on my favorite group from any set, the Golgari, who happen to be hard-core necromancers.:smalltongue: Except they fuse corpses with plant-things.

And yes, I know of Flesh Golems and Corpse Golems, but the only golems I've ever seen in Town are "normal" ones.

@Draken- We could always just give the corpse a proper burial.:smalltongue:

[Metis]

Animate Dead is a prominent spell, but it is not the only one. In fact... there is a spell similar to Animate Dead that actually has the Good Descriptor. It's called Create Deathless. :smallamused:

[LordVader]

Except Deathless are not normal Undead, correct? Aren't they like what the dead Sapphire Guard paladins turned into? As in, they retained their sentience, as opposed to zombies and skeletons?

[metakirb]

Animate dead is the stereotypical basis of necromancy, the definition of necromancy is
1.The practice of supposedly communicating with the spirits of the dead in order to predict the future.
2.Black magic; sorcery.
3.Magic qualities

According to http://www.answers.com/necromancy&r=67 i see no mention of undead animation in the definition, thus necromancy is not evil

[LordVader]

I have yet to see an necromancer, in any game, book, whatever, who did not have zombies, skeletons, or other undead at his side. That may be the actual definition, but the fantasy definition includes "undead".

[Metis]

Except Deathless are not normal Undead, correct? Aren't they like what the dead Sapphire Guard paladins turned into? As in, they retained their sentience, as opposed to zombies and skeletons?
That is true, I'm just saying your stereotyping and general outlawing is bad.

And um... metakirb... there is a reason it is called "Black Magic." Seriously, raising someone as a corpse isn't exactly a good deed. However, I'm not sure it should be entirely discarded.

Perhaps people could specify whether they would be a corpse donor, kinda like being an organ donor? :smallwink:


And LordVader, I've seen plenty, actually. Seriously, when I said you could create an anti-undead necromancer, I mean I've seen it done.

[metakirb]

1. black mages in FF aren't evil, but they use black magic
2.LV, if you want to see a necromancer with no undead minions, k the streets thread, his name is Neross
3. necromancy isn't evil, it's the applications of it that are called evil!!!

[LordVader]

If Deathless are basically the person they were in life, that's more of "raising" them, per se, then it is making a zombie out of them.
Corpse donor idea has potential, but then you have the problem of whether or not NPCs would be corpse donors, as you'd have people with necromancers saying they would. Personally, I can't see the vast majority of NPCs in Town liking the idea of donating their corpse, but there'd undoubtedly be some.

[Metis]

We could just make a rule saying like, 1 out of 10 dead NPCs would be corpse donors. It makes sense to me.

[Draken]

1. black mages in FF aren't evil, but they use black magic
2.LV, if you want to see a necromancer with no undead minions, k the streets thread, his name is Neross
3. necromancy isn't evil, it's the applications of it that are called evil!!!

Black magic in FF comprises Transmutation, Evocation, and some aspects of Necromancy, Conjuration.

White magic comprises Illusion, Divination, Abjuration (mainly) and other aspects of Necromancy and Conjuration.

[metakirb]

If Deathless are basically the person they were in life, that's more of "raising" them, per se, then it is making a zombie out of them.
Corpse donor idea has potential, but then you have the problem of whether or not NPCs would be corpse donors, as you'd have people with necromancers saying they would. Personally, I can't see the vast majority of NPCs in Town liking the idea of donating their corpse, but there'd undoubtedly be some.

since when did anyone care for what the NPCs wanted?

[Draken]

NPC rights group HQ (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28702)

:smallsmile:

[metakirb]

i still stick by my statement of who cares what the NPCs think

[Osnagard]

Look it.

Necromancy is not evil in esscence, raising the dead into zombies is not evil (regardless of what DnD says, as this isn't DnD). It's merely the means by which things happen. If you have a character who is practically useless other than it's ability to create dead then there should be nothing stopping that from happening.

As for non-undead necros, anyone ever played Diablo 2? The necromancer class was a hero and had the option of being a summon necro, a curse necro or a poison/bone necro. The poison/bone were all spells that looked scary but really didn;t effect the body of anyone (except maybe the target when a spinal column formed from mid air is suddenly jutting out of their chest).

As for NPCs they're all essentially famliless people whos only existance is to give the Town a population when there are few PC online and to act as fodder during the slaughtering. Doesn't really matter if they're zombified or not.

[Artemis97]

And to tyie D&D to the argument, Corpses are objects. Animating a dead body is like animating a table ot making a construct. Now if you deliberately kill an NPC just to get a zombie, which I've seen happen a few times in Trog's, that's murder and should be illegal.

[Shabal]

I think that the argument has gotten...somewhat off-topic, but to throw in my two cents, if the body is not claimed, I think it can be sold to a Necromancer; provided they give their intention for use of the body, and the Police can at any time survey the use of the body and make sure that it isn't being used for anything against the law.

[Emperor Ing]

I think that the argument has gotten...somewhat off-topic, but to throw in my two cents, if the body is not claimed, I think it can be sold to a Necromancer; provided they give their intention for use of the body, and the Police can at any time survey the use of the body and make sure that it isn't being used for anything against the law.

...provided the origonal owner of the body registers to allow necromancers to use the body.

[Shabal]

...provided the origonal owner of the body registers to allow necromancers to use the body.
I think we're mostly talking about NPC bodies.

[Admiral_Kelly]

Guys, people use dead bodies for medical purposes and alike all the time in the real world. If the body cannot be resurrected and nobody wants it; what would be wrong with selling it?

"They might do something awful to the body!"
Hello? He would be dead and unable to be resurrected and if the family cared for him they would come and pick him up.

Also I would like to make an amendment to my previous suggestion; only 24 hours need to be waited before the body can be sold. 10 days is too long for the Town.

Overall, the reason why I advocate this is so that necromancers can work within the law without resorting to criminal activity. After all, this is a Chaotic Good society not a Lawful Good society (and no, this is not an excuse for NecroMoris's actions; I intentionally made him evil and a prolific lawbreaker who deserves what he gets).

[InaVegt]

I, myself, think we should habe an IC council, which is responsible for creating the laws, the characters would vote for those in the council and the council would be bound to some rules (a constitution)

[metakirb]

Individual character votes, not good, take me for example, i have 16-17 20 ( :smalleek: ) characters, so thats 17 votes as three of them are minor characters, all dragons

[Emperor Ing]

Metakirb, your characters grow on trees! :eek:

[metakirb]

hey, i've got a very active imagination, and know how to use it, most of them tie in together

[Emperor Ing]

Hmm, well your good at what you do. But sometimes, I wonder how you ever manage to keep track of them all.

[metakirb]

to tell the truth, i don't sometimes... but i find it easy

[Emperor Ing]

Does that notebook by your hand make it easier? :smallamused:

[metakirb]

Notebook? i see no notebook, food and a bionicle barraki yes, but no notebook...

[Emperor Ing]

O_o okay im not gonna bother asking.
Okay, back on topic, one vote per person, as in Metakirb only gets 1 vote, and so does Nightwing, presuming he still does the town.

[LordVader]

since when did anyone care for what the NPCs wanted?

Well, it matters for example with the corpse donor thing, as I doubt most NPCs would realistically want to become undead. And I have a feeling most of the bodies would be claimed anyways, as everyone must have family.

[Shabal]

Well, that's about the same thing as thinking, "No human would want to become a cadaver, or an organ donor." But they give permission and check the box on their driver's license.
Even if the Town is fundamentally based on roleplaying, it needs to have a population of Non-Controlled Characters, or else it'd be a relatively small population. And even if it's fundamentally based on roleplaying, I think we can give the idea a little room and assume that some NPCs have no family within the area, and would like to become undead. Considering that there aren't that many necromancers within the area, it wouldn't make that much of a difference. And considering that what necromancers are within the area will typically kill helpless NPCs without permission, it'll actually help the police somewhat, from having to repeatedly chase down the crazy necromancer in Trog's who kills a few NPCs, turns them undead, and attacks the rest of the people in the Tavern.
I still approve of the idea, regardless of what the TTPD might do IC.
Besides that, when are the mayoral elections coming up? :smallconfused:

[InaVegt]

Even if we're going to enforce one vote per player, I still say we should have an IC council, which would be a ruling body of the town in an IC way.

In fact, I propose we start preparing for it right now (by determining the amount of seats on it, duration of terms, that kind of thing)

[Draken]

For the friggin last time.

The pools will be closed this Monday (by the time I login, probably).

The candidates are: blackout, J_Muller, Bookboy, LordVader, Draken, Artemis97. (Seven candidates)

You must vote for 6 positions, you can't vote the same person for more than one position.

Yes. We have seven candidates for six positions, I didn't want so few. But no one was making a single nomination anymore.

[fatninjacow]

I think there should be some law restricting use of force wall's and cage's and the like, it's plan annoying never being able to fight cause you get trapped in a force ball if your going to capture someone,you should have to fight them and knock them unconcious then put them in a force ball or whatever
this post is aimed at LordVader

[metakirb]

and i believe is classed as spam due to the fact that you don't like your character being trapped by said methods, so you just don't want them so you can run wild again... like that's going to happen

[LordVader]

I think there should be some law restricting use of force wall's and cage's and the like, it's plan annoying never being able to fight cause you get trapped in a force ball if your going to capture someone,you should have to fight them and knock them unconcious then put them in a force ball or whatever
this post is aimed at LordVader
:smallannoyed:
I think there should be a law where you have to have a valid IC reason for picking fights with people, and know where they are. This post is aimed at fatninjacow.((This is sarcasm, don't actually want a law for that.:smalltongue:))

All you do is fight. If you break the law, you go to jail. I warned everyone that Jarus would be staying at the Station, but if you attack there, he goes ape on your ass. If you don't want to get trapped inside forcefields, don't go there. And no offense, but it's so damn hard to fight you because you godmod all the time!

[fatninjacow]

I'm saying certain psionist's *cough,Jarus!* are alot *cough,Jarus!* to powerful! This has nothing to do with Dalas being trapped,I want him to get killed cause' his plot died

[Vhaidara]

When you're in a cell at the police station it's fully legit. Also, I'm having someone cast an anti-takeover field around the station. Dead serious. And I fully agree that the psykers are overpowered. Level 16, and one of them actually put up a good fight against E, who is level 40, plus mind flayer!

[LordVader]

I'm saying certain psionist's *cough,Jarus!* are alot *cough,Jarus!* to powerful! This has nothing to do with Dalas being trapped,I want him to get killed cause' his plot died

All of your characters are powerful as well, and you godmod horribly with all of them. And you want really powerful, look at E.((No offense, but he is incredibly powerful.)) All Jarus does is make forcefields, throw people, and shoot lightning.
((Yeah, well, Bookboy, you didn't tell me what level E was. And I don't know what level any of my people are, really, they're coming from 40k so it's hard to approximate. And don't talk to me about overpowered characters, please.:smallannoyed:))

[metakirb]

i'm offended you didn't mention coronox before the exion,now he was overpowered...

[LordVader]

Horribly, horribly overpowered.:smalltongue: But still nothing compared to Ba'al. I'm glad he's gone.
Also, Bookboy, I do not recall you mentioning once during that fight what level E was. Was I just supposed to magically know that he was ECL 60? If you had told me he was that high a level, then yes, I would have had the psykers fold almost immediately. But you didn't.

[fatninjacow]

((speaking of dalas how long is his sentence?))

[Admiral_Kelly]

When you're in a cell at the police station it's fully legit. Also, I'm having someone cast an anti-takeover field around the station. Dead serious. And I fully agree that the psykers are overpowered. Level 16, and one of them actually put up a good fight against E, who is level 40, plus mind flayer!No, BB. That would be incredibly stupid. If you do that, I'll ignore it. That would be like having a "No problems what-so-ever" shield around the station.

[LordVader]

Bookboy, Jarus is now the Station's permanent guard. And an Alpha-level psyker should easily be able to rip apart virtually anything that might attack the Station. So the field won't be neccessary.

[Admiral_Kelly]

Exactly. Not everything should be settled with a shield.

[Vhaidara]

I'm still doing it, and also, you people need to learn to check the character page. And E's power comes from the fact that he's rarely there. I'm ditchng like half of my people soon.

[Admiral_Kelly]

I'm still doing it,And I'm still ignoreing it.

[LordVader]

I'm going to have to agree with AK on this one.
A slightly more reasonable spell might be that you have to be an officer, or have the permission of an officer (for perps) to enter. Much like what the OoA had.
Also, I never understand how an illusion could cast spells.:smallconfused:

[Tiben]

Can you please stop argueing on this thread. this thread has a useful reason to be here, and perople will start ignoring it if all that's on it is arguments.

so please, for the sace of the law, and the town. stop argueing here.

[Vhaidara]

No, Tiben.

LV, E is extremely powerful. It isn't as much an illusion as a simacularum, which is fully able to cast spells.

[LordVader]

I know he's extremely powerful, and I wasn't saying I don't think he should be able to do that, just that I don't understand. So it's like an incorporeal clone, more or less? That makes more sense, thanks.:smallsmile:

[Vhaidara]

Exactly. Trust me, high level casters work in mysterious ways that are better left mysterious.

[LordVader]

Alright, makes sense now, got it.:smallsmile:

[Osnagard]

Addressing the Town's Law problem, I think I have found the answer.

Anarchy.

Before you dismiss this outright take a good look at what I'm proposing here.

Law enforcement in the Town simply doesn't work. Players have more than one character and, since being imprisoned is boreing, simply ignore that one untill the other is freed. What's worse is that as there is no personal harm to the player punishment for the crime, or rather fear of punishment, is not a deturant. They simply can simply commit a crime, be punnished, relased, commit again, rinse and repeat.

Now take a look at some good examples from specific characters, namely my Sorry and Tiben's Tiben. Sorry is a repeat offender who has only gone to jail once. Everyone knows she is guilty and indeed she intends to do harm to others, yet no one ever chases after her more than a few posts. Tiben on the other hand is basically harmless to PC's and has harmed NPC's accidentally only, yet he's easy to catch and has been to jail many times.

If there were no laws per-say, then it doesn't mean there would be ramant killings and destruction. Merely that it would not be illegal to do so. For some reason people are scared by the term anarchy, so much so that they stop careing what it means.

If the Town were an anarchy "evil" characters would be free to do as they like. "Good" characters are also free to do as they will. If the "Good" guys don't like what the "Bad" guys are doing, nothing says they can't do something about it. Anarchy doesn't run on everyone doing what they want, it works when everyone understands the difference between good and evil, and they decide that it is helpfull to the comunity to do good things and harmfull to do bad things. It then falls to the inhabitants of the town to decide where to draw the line. Perhaps it will work out that killing an NPC is acceptable, but killing a PC is not? If that's the case why should it matter?

The point is, majority will rule, and in fact be more effective than democracy ever can within the constraints of Town. If the law deems something to be wrong, the police a bound to defend that regardless of their personal beleif. If there is no law, nor any police, when the citizens deem something to be wrong they can band together and stand up for it. This sets a precedend that "killing PC's", for example, may be perfectly legal, but shall not be tollerated.

I can probably thing of something mroe to say but this has gotten pretty long and I'm loseing track of where I've been. :P.

This is simply my opinion for what would work best "here", and thanks for takeing the time to read all that :D.

[LordVader]

No. Anarchy=bad in a system like this, where you have no one to protect the weaker characters. For example, the level 2 paladin, and I know someone else has a level 6 or something PC. The police can protect those people from much higher level PCs that would otherwise be free to gank them as they wished. Also, we're proposing making the punishments much stricter for repeat offenders. Anarchy is a Bad Idea.

[Pwenet]

So what is to prevent someone from making a new character when their current one is tossed in jail?

[Destro_Yersul]

What about the high level good PC's? and the high level neutral PC's they happen to be friends with? I'm all for Anarchy. The original police force was created for a war between three factions. After that it just sorta persisted.

[Emperor Ing]

NOTHING!! Its the town! :smallbiggrin:
Damn simu'd :smallfrown:
You get the unwilling to die effect.
You can pit a level 10 pc vs a level 100 pc in the town, and the battle could end up going either way. The level 10 pc has to be willing to accept defeat to a higher level. Even if this is totally unrealistic, its the town. :smallyuk:

[LordVader]

Nothing. The whole point is, that character is being punished, IC. Everyone in Town has more then one character. That is why I was suggesting expanding the punishments so you can't just go, "Well, I'll just switch to my other PC for three days". I'm trying to come up with some that have long-term effects, such as maybe confiscating weapons, including magical ones, forcing the PC to do community service, etc.

Well, if we go to anarchy, then Raneus is just going vigilante again with the Guard anyways. So like it or not, there will be "police".:smalltongue:

[Emperor Ing]

If anarchy rises, expect a greater GE presense. :smallcool:

[Destro_Yersul]

point is, we don't need a set in stone bunch of laws. Raneus and the guard can maintain order, sure. But they get to decide what's "legal" and what isn't. I'm not saying there shouldn't be a policing force, which people will run no matter what, but we don't need a legal code.

Or, to quote a really old film:

"If you're the police, where are your badges?"
"Badges!? We ain't got no badges. We don't need no badges! I don't have to show you any stinking badges!!"

[Osnagard]

This is exactly my point, anarchy wouldn't mean there will be no one standing up for the rights of others, simply that there is not strick moral code that X action is good and that Y action is bad.

[Artemis97]

Right I am doing a bit of threadomancy to address a new topic:

If the Council is OOC, what do we do if a character needs to speak with them IC?

Do they walk into the Town Hall and approach a chamber full of cloaked figures?

Do they speak directly to the nigh omnipotent beings that are the players who make up the council?

[Vhaidara]

Council is all OOC. wxdruid just always used Gwen as mayor. First character connection.

[Artemis97]

Ah that's right! We have a mayor, ok then...forget all that.

[LordVader]

Damn, cloaked figures as the players would have been awesome. Maybe we can have a backup council, since wxdruid is rarely on.

[blackout]

I'd like the cloaked figures. They could be gods in human form, and but they would only be used when someone brings a situation directly to the council. One councilman per player on the council. :smalltongue:

[Admiral_Kelly]

Reviving this thread.

New proposal: There should be an NPC judge at the police station who can handle crimes of which the normal sentence is less than or equal to 24 hours. This way if someone is innocent they can have the case handled straight away without having to go to jail.

Also, I think we need a definition for Bar Brawling so it won't be mixed with assault or battery.

[fatninjacow]

I think people shouldn't be arrested for bar braawling when they are defending themselve's

[Vhaidara]

We're having a council meeting. There will be an open floor at the end. Suggest these there.

[wxdruid]

When is the council meeting?

The Mayoral elections are in November

[Artemis97]

We made a thread for it. It should be somewhere on this first page if it hasn't sunk to far.

[Atreyu the Masked LLama]

Just in case people felt the need to discuss stuff about Town and stuff.

I found an old OOC thread that looks like it might fit the purpose.

[Mee]

Thank you Atreyu. :smallsmile:


And I think all that really needs deciding is if someone can be interacted with while they're in deadtime.
I say that when someone deadtimes, they temporarily pop out of existence.
But that's just me.

[Szilard]

I usually rule that they are sleeping and can't be harmed unless told by their player.

[Lupy]

I assume that they just can't be interacted with for whatever reason. Sleep, meditation, etc. I thinl the base of this was whether or not we could interact with Hannah during this time.

[Mee]

Then, with what everyone is saying: Is no.
You can't.

At least, looking at what everyone thinks deadtime is, that's my opinion.