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CowardlyPaladin
2017-06-02, 12:11 PM
I've been trying to fix core caster's spell list from being too OP and I have this question regarding Level Drain spells like Energy Drain, they seem to me to just be too powerful to be in the hands of players at all. Being able to drain an enemy's level means that they are just a few saves away from turning a powerful opponent into something inconsequential, especially enemy casters. I mean yes they can just cast death ward but that means everybody is just compensating for these spells. My other problem is that since D&D is based on levels, that is the main form of mechanical play, losing those towards spells just seems unfun.
So my questions are this
A) Are Energy Drain Spells fun to play with, either as using them or fighting an opponent who uses them. In my experience if you use them it just seems too easy but maybe other people have a different perspective.
B) Are Energy Drain Spells uniquely overpowered, cause they seem that way to me.

Just to be clear, I don't have a problem with monsters having energy drain, because that is like their thing, its like when you face off against a medusa, you prepare yourself for that possibility. But players or enemy PCs being able to use that power with more creativity just seems wrong to me, maybe I am just crazy though, this might just be a larger part of the Save or Die problem.

What do people think of players having Energy Drain.

Beneath
2017-06-02, 12:29 PM
They don't turn enemies any more inconsequential than instant death spells do.

Koo Rehtorb
2017-06-02, 02:59 PM
Check what negative levels actually do. You might be overestimating their impact.

Mastikator
2017-06-02, 03:38 PM
Full casters are uniquely powerful, energy drain is not.

It is boring though.

Darth Ultron
2017-06-03, 01:07 AM
What do people think of players having Energy Drain.

They are pointless. Even if your in 2E where Energy Drain really does drain a level, and not 3X plus were energy drain is just a bad joke.

It's like a player makes all the time and effort to attack a foe....and then does nothing to them. Sure, one out of a hundred times a NPC spellcaster might have a high level ''party kill'' spell they loose....the rest of the time not much happens.

You'd really need to take away like five levels to show real impact...and that is like a couple rounds of the NPC attacking back, doing real damage, while the PC energy drains away.

Khedrac
2017-06-03, 01:48 AM
This totally depends on which version of (A)D&D you are playing, but there are four different sub-forums for the many versions of D&D and the answer will be completely different depending on which sub-forum you re-post this question in.

CowardlyPaladin
2017-06-03, 02:11 AM
This totally depends on which version of (A)D&D you are playing, but there are four different sub-forums for the many versions of D&D and the answer will be completely different depending on which sub-forum you re-post this question in.

Are there any of these version fun to play with? The only real fun use of Energy Drain as a PC spell I can think of is as a way to depower a prisoner

BWR
2017-06-03, 02:24 AM
I think they are fine. They are easy to protect against in 3.x (and 2e too, IIRC - can't speak for earlier or later editions) with a spell of much lower level, and in 3.x they are ridiculously easy to fix. Complaints about compensating are entirely meaningless; all spells that protect or heal or remove bad effects are 'compensating' for something else.
I actually preferred the 2e version, where you actually lost a level and things were tough. Yeah, losing levels sucked but it made the negative levels seem dangerous rather than a simple debuff.
The few times I've had groups with 9th level spells, Energy Drain was never used because they had better spells available.

So I see no problem with ED.

LibraryOgre
2017-06-03, 08:47 AM
TBH, I'm house-ruling level drains into attribute drains, because I find level drains to be a PITA to deal with. Temporary attribute damage has a similar effect, and is easier to adjudicate.

Anxe
2017-06-03, 11:12 AM
I've been playing with them in my high-level to epic campaign (I'm DM). I found them to be on par with other spells of their level. The "damage" and debuff they provide is useful and fairly balanced with other magic.

Example fight that I remember, the PCs were attacking a dragon. The negative levels helped reduce its HP (obvious benefit), but they also lowered its ability to attack. This lowered offensive capability likely allowed one of the PCs to escape death as the dragon could no longer beat that PC's grapple or AC. Another spell might've ended the fight faster due to damage or a separate debuff spell might have had a more pronounced effect, but Energy Drain certainly didn't feel like the wrong decision for the PC to make. It was effective.

As for the management of it as a DM, I found that pretty easy, but I could see why it could be frustrating. Managing the HP loss, the debuff penalties, and the spell losses. It can easily get overwhelming, especially if there are multiple targets of energy drain in a fight.

As the PCs have leveled up, Death Ward has become extremely common. The PCs always have it up. Their opponents always have it up. Dispel Magic and its variant spells become super useful at high levels because so much of an opponent's power comes from buff spells. That's a different story though.

EDIT: This is 3.5.

GungHo
2017-06-06, 11:02 AM
Just up front... I think energy drain (in the versions where you're permanently taking levels) is one of the meanest things you can do to a player, because you're not just robbing a character of power, you're robbing a player of time.

However, draining an NPC is meaningless. You're not robbing anyone of anything and unless you're dealing with a recurring villain, it has no long term consequence because that guy is going to die. You're better off, as Mark notes, taking attributes or taking away bonuses, because that's a much easier effect to demonstrate.

LibraryOgre
2017-06-06, 11:10 AM
Just up front... I think energy drain (in the versions where you're permanently taking levels) is one of the meanest things you can do to a player, because you're not just robbing a character of power, you're robbing a player of time.


I just view it as ANNOYING. Like, it's a mechanic designed to be a PITA to handle.

FreddyNoNose
2017-06-17, 02:06 PM
I've been trying to fix core caster's spell list from being too OP and I have this question regarding Level Drain spells like Energy Drain, they seem to me to just be too powerful to be in the hands of players at all. Being able to drain an enemy's level means that they are just a few saves away from turning a powerful opponent into something inconsequential, especially enemy casters. I mean yes they can just cast death ward but that means everybody is just compensating for these spells. My other problem is that since D&D is based on levels, that is the main form of mechanical play, losing those towards spells just seems unfun.
So my questions are this
A) Are Energy Drain Spells fun to play with, either as using them or fighting an opponent who uses them. In my experience if you use them it just seems too easy but maybe other people have a different perspective.
B) Are Energy Drain Spells uniquely overpowered, cause they seem that way to me.

Just to be clear, I don't have a problem with monsters having energy drain, because that is like their thing, its like when you face off against a medusa, you prepare yourself for that possibility. But players or enemy PCs being able to use that power with more creativity just seems wrong to me, maybe I am just crazy though, this might just be a larger part of the Save or Die problem.

What do people think of players having Energy Drain.
Are you ok with a sleep spell incapacitating a large number of the enemy at level 1? How about fireball? The scale of those two spells at their appropriate level is much more "trouble" than level drain.

Tanarii
2017-06-17, 06:16 PM
Just up front... I think energy drain (in the versions where you're permanently taking levels) is one of the meanest things you can do to a player, because you're not just robbing a character of power, you're robbing a player of time.Its not mean. It's just a dangerous threat. Although not as dangerous as killing a player in a way they can't be brought back to life, or some other affect removing them from play entirely or turning them into an NPC.

Especially since the way the XP tables are structured in Classic and AD&D, it's fairly easy to catapult a drained character back up to the level they were before, as long as they keep adventuring with higher level adventurers. Ditto for re-rolling entirely, if you completely lose a character, for that matter. Only if the entire party is drained / lost so they can't keep doing higher level stuff is it a really big deal.

CowardlyPaladin
2017-06-19, 02:33 PM
Are you ok with a sleep spell incapacitating a large number of the enemy at level 1? How about fireball? The scale of those two spells at their appropriate level is much more "trouble" than level drain.

Those really aren't equivalent, Fireball deals direct damage and and sleep temporarily debilitates you, Energy Drain actually takes away one of your core mechanical forms of engagement in the game. Which is fine for a monster to have, but as a spell I don't see how it is fun to use, fun to be hit by, or even engaging. The only way this seems interesting to play with is if the party needs to level drain an enemy to take them prisoner.

Also while sleep is somewhat OP at earlier levels, Fireball is not an OP spell, it isn't save or die