OOTS #332 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Tee hee.

[Felinoid]

Just one rhetorical question: Why in the world did they keep walking? :P

EDIT: Damn you, Tribble! That's it, I'm lobbying the Tzenkethi government to side with the Klingons. :P

[NEO|Phyte]

Ah, the joys of memory modifications

[TinSoldier]

That was alright. Not quite as funny as the last one, but...

Leave it to Elan to point out the stupidity of others!

[Dawnstrider_Moogle]

Heh, I'm pretty impressed that Elan was the one who did the "counting" thing. I wonder if the conversation's going to go the same way it went before...probably not, for comedic effect, and since he won't remember the specific wording or the Oracle's hinting (in all likelihood) he'll probably just be like "oh, whatever elan~"

That said: Wah wah waaaaaaaah.

[PhoeKun]

This elicited a chuckle. Two, actually.

And it made me make this post. Must've been a pretty good comic, I guess.

[FlawedParadigm]

And I was hoping Roy worded the question that way because he had already assumed Azure City was the next logical target and wanted to know which one was NEXT on Xykon's list.

Oops. Roy didn't strike me as a blonde, you know.

[Sekko]

Another great one!! To know and lose it, all at once.

[DVC]

Nicely done.

[ElfLad]

Most excellent.

[TinSoldier]

Oh, and I can't wait to see Miko, Hinjo, and Shojo (and Mr. Scruffy!) take on Xykon and his minions!

[Orkagon]

nice comic rich. two very big thumbs up.

[Mizak]

First page?

Edit: WOOT! First PAGE!! Finally! hehe....Good Comic btw Giant..8)

[hyikim]

first page!


well, that stinks.
:'(:'(:'(:'(:'(:'(:'(

[Tobimaro]

Well, Roy did outsmart himself this time. And Elan actually caught him on that. :o

And now, the heroes move on towards their own destination while the army of evil advances on. Wonder if Miko gets to be the one to get the OotS? That would be most interesting. ;)

Grovar

((Now to sound like all of the geeks out there. Just missed out on the first page. What is the world coming to?)) 8)

[Douglas]

[spoiler?]
I'm hoping Durkon will remind everyone exactly what they'd been talking about in the next strip and respond to all the wondering stares with "What? I made my will save"

[WeaponMasterLDO]

So close. Ouch. Just ouch.

Great comic by the way.

[Stick_Assassin]

Long time lurker first time poster. Hooray for memory loss related jokes. Rich you never stop making me smile :D

Dang missed first page by creating a profile *sigh*

Oh well ... *goes off to worship at the alter of OOTS*

[xyzchyx]

Oh, dang! That's all I can say...

But hey... if they remember the answers, do they still remember the questions? Seems to me that Elan's observation is equally valid even if they don't remember anything other than the questions or answers.

Woah... 2nd page. I've never done that before!

[fractal]

Perhaps the conversation will progress exactly the same way again, allowing Elan to once more remind Roy?

Probably not.

[Vampire_Boy]

Awesome! Roy being done in by his own WIS - I know there was a reason why normal fighters usually use it as a dump stat, too much of it and it starts creating problems.

Oh, and the next time we see Miko? A very undead ex-paladin. Mwahaha!

[Filatus]

Heh, congratz to the Giant for this little twist. Didn't see it coming.

That's what I appreciate, no matter what gets predicted on the forums, I find myself still surprised most of the time.

The story gets more complicated the longer it stretches, I'm definately curious what will happen in the coming 10 weeks.

[alanbahr]

Nice Job Giant...

[Skyserpent]

Spoileriffic!!!

Wouldn't it be interesting if Miko ended up Offing Xykon and being wholly anticlimactic? But then... REDCLOAK the Destroyer!

[Eldritch Knight]

;DBrilliant! Such Poetic realization, only too late to do anything about it. Always happens to me in game, and in RL too......

[Martok]

AAAUGH!!! So close! I don't suppose Roy, Elan, or anyone else will think to bring up Azure City again as a possible target until it's far too late..... Oh, torture!

[Bitterbadger]

Wow. Stuff like that is what makes most players pull their hair out and kill their DM. Possibly with their hair.

[SPoD]

Perhaps the conversation will progress exactly the same way again, allowing Elan to once more remind Roy?

Probably not.

Yeah, I think the bit where Roy says, "That's what the little orange runt was hinting at the whole time," means that he only made the connection due to the fact that he remembered the Oracle trying to get him to alter the wording of his question. Now that he's been hit with the memory loss, he will only remember the question and answer, and is more likely to dismiss Elan's comment about there being three gates as irrelevent.

Oh, and nice comic. :)

[Ing]

Its really a blessing Roy won't remember how stupid he just was.

[Eriol]

Yeah, I think the bit where Roy says, "That's what the little orange runt was hinting at the whole time," means that he only made the connection due to the fact that he remembered the Oracle trying to get him to alter the wording of his question. Now that he's been hit with the memory loss, he will only remember the question and answer, and is more likely to dismiss Elan's comment about there being three gates as irrelevent.
I dunno. Considering the panel is EXACTLY the same, if the conversation progresses the same way, they DO remember the question at least, if not the "full response chain" and thus they'll think "well what if it IS the 3rd gate?" And maybe they'll go back, and then we'll go through a whole NEW chain of oracle strips.

Or maybe he just does remember the whole chain of answers, and not just the "final" answer, and it'll all be good.

Or something else totally unexpected. ;)

[kyrin]

Its really a blessing Roy won't remember how stupid he just was.

And the fact that Elan caught him on it...

JIM
aka kyrin

[5tephen]

Solid GOLD.

Go Elan, you big thinky-pants!

[Kriel]

I do believe that two words can describe the outcome of this comic: "Ahh, crap!"

[Kontonshin]

W00t! Elan is vindicated!

For all of twenty seconds, mind you, but it's nice to have it on record that at least once in a while he's not as thick as most of the party thinks he is.

[Cerberus]

Man that has to suck, I hope they eventually get to azure city..the comic actually was more exciting/puzzeling then funny..still a great comic none the less.

I hope they get it figured out.

And how did elan manage to correct roy? As if roy could forget that....

Then again azure city can prolly defend its self...and if not they will still have better chances of surviiving an army then surviving another onslaut from belklar.

[Krytha]

Great! NOW Elan chooses to be useful! hahahahaa

[TinSoldier]

And how did elan manage to correct roy? As if roy could forget that....High INT/WIS doesn't mean you don't make mistakes; low INT/WIS doesn't mean you are not right sometimes.

The probability is low, but not nonexistent.

[Djagir]

The one time Elan actually manages to be intelligent about something, and no one will remember. Natch. :o ::)

[grimdirge]

DUN DUN DUN DUNNNNNN!

[Arkadian]

heheh....gotta love memory management enchantments.

By the By...Rich, had a friend of mine pick me up a copy of "...Paladin Blues" at your booth at SDCC. Will enjoy immensely. :D I would've gotten it myself but i'm currently at work and won't be going myself until Saturday. Figured I'd have my friend pick it up for me before you run out of stock at the booth. ;D

[_JM_]

"Hey Gang! If we leave this valley we will forget most of the events here, let's keep on walking."

First panel was annoying, Durkon visible to right of panel showing he was in front. :-/

On the other hand no sight of Haley and she might have been behind the rest of the group (Gold! Hers + that paid by the rest of the group + that paid by past visitors! Answers...AND TREASURE!). ;D

[Arkadian]

Ever notice how when they were figuring this out they were still walking...probably proving a theory that the brain doesn't always control the body....or that stick figures have an autopilot feature. ;)

[charik]

"Ffft, like I listen."

My favorite line of the comic.

[Illsbane]

I don't care if anyone's already suggested this option, Roy just royally ticked me off in the recent two comics: Couldn't that dork have just written it down?! Memory-erasing spells generally don't work on written records. >_<*

[sakusha]

XDDDDDDDD Deja vu anyone? Oh that made my evening! I also love "I am ... uncertain."

I think the worst part would have to be being the player of one of the OotSers right now ... "Okay, you have to act as if you don't remember x, y, & z." ... :o "NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!" I think that pretty much would be Rich, but all DM's have to do that with their NPCs (or in this case characters in a story).

[kerberos]

Just one rhetorical question: Why in the world did they keep walking? :P
GM railroading:

Roy's player: "We need to go back! we need to ask the -"

GM: "You just passed through the memory erasing barrier and forget everything."

Roy's player: "bugger."

[Krytha]

Roy's player : I carve "Xykon is going to Azure City, not Girard's gate." into Elan's forehead.
GM : uhhhh....

[Acksiom]

You know, at first, I was thinking, Oh man, Rich, that's not just 'Cruel', that's -LA DE VILLE. . .but then. . .

. . .well, but then, it occurred to me that, really, who do they (or we) really care about in Azure City? Ummm. . .Hinjo, AFAIC, and really, that's about it.

Remember, this is the culture that created Miko, and which is -- let's be honest here -- based upon numerous non-LG lies and deceptions, and appears to have a serious authoritarianism problem (using Roy's behavior as a counterexample of far-less-Statist-LGness -- Roy is, IMO, a defining example of how to be LG without the AH).

Frankly, if Hinjo gets out alive and this becomes a significantly transformative learning experience for him, I would in fact actually be aesthetically PLEASED.

So, after second thinking. . .

BURN, AZURE CITY!

BURRRRRNNNNNNN!!!!

[thehothead]

Poor poor order of the stick...

[Aiani]

I love it when Elan points out something obvious but it makes me almost sad to see them forget after Roy finally figured out how dumb he was being. This is one of those situations where you wish you could get inside the story and warn the heroes. Oh well.

[Nightstallion]

Great comic, but still, as far as the plot is concerned, I can only say "oy vey"...

[fwiffo]

. . .well, but then, it occurred to me that, really, who do they (or we) really care about in Azure City? Ummm. . .Hinjo, AFAIC, and really, that's about it.

You are forgetting Mr Scruffy and his caretaker.

[Abd al-Azrad]

That was amusing. I was surprised that this particular plot point (that the characters forgot about Azure City) was going to be solved so soon. But then it wasn't.

There's something that reminds me of Joss Whedon's writing in these recent comics. But that statement may get me burned to DEATH.

[Zeb The Troll]

</lurk>

Just a thought here...

Let's say, for the sake of discussion, that OotS and Xykon's army accidentally end up in Azure City at the same time and it's necessary for OotS to fend off the brigades of hobgoblins.

I don't recall any caveats or exemptions in Belkar's Mark of Justice curse that would allow him to lay waste to hordes of hobgoblins in defense of the city.

Would he have to just hang back and twitch at the thought of all that stabbity going on that he can't participate in?

[Screech]

Hehe so funny but so evil as well. poor roy

[TheRani]

Well, now that they have their answer, I guess they'll be heading for Azure city anyway, since they need to get a teleport to Girard's gate. And probably end up attending that little family reunion the oracle was hinting at before. The one with Elan's brother and Roy's sister.

[The Doctor]

It's priceless to see Elan being the smartest of the group for a change. Not that anyone is going to remember...
Heh.
Dorks.

[orcmonk89]

LOL. Funny. That was particularly well done, putting Elan high up in Smarts and all.

Belkar's comments were ones to watch out for. Dorks! ;D

[HypnoticMonk]

Once again, an amazingly well thoughtout strip that makes my day every day I see a new one(and some days when I go back andread old ones as well)

[Talas]

YAY!!! just givin my two cents

[Lyc]

Why did they bother with only one question each before leaving?

Now if they had copied down the 'Encyclopedia Belkannica' they could have had as many questions as they want and remembered the answers.

Besides, if the Kobold is to cheap to apply a customer service part then he shouldn't be surprised when his clients decide to take their grievences straight to the manager.

[Elftist]

Darn, I was so happy that they were considering the Azure Gate.

[JessmanCA]

very clever comic, made me chuckle

[SirGalrim]

Dorks.

[auron_the_awesome]

Why did they bother with only one question each before leaving?


Because they were only ALLOWED one question (without resorting to violence), and Roy said they couldn't dangle the kobold out of any more windows, the fun-stealer. >:(

Now I, myself, was in full support of the Encyclopedia Belkarrica. Slice and dice that stupid kobold! w00t! Go Belkar. ;D

[Miraqariftsky]

Hahaharr! Is Elan getting smarter? :o I actually assumed that the Azure City Gate was the one closer to Girard's Gate...

[Kish]

Why did they bother with only one question each before leaving?

Now if they had copied down the 'Encyclopedia Belkannica' they could have had as many questions as they want and remembered the answers.

Besides, if the Kobold is to cheap to apply a customer service part then he shouldn't be surprised when his clients decide to take their grievences straight to the manager.
Because the evil psychopath party member is the one on a leash, not the one making the decisions.

[CelestialStick]

"What were we talking about again?"

Oh, crap.

I love the fact that Elan's the one who made Roy figure it out! :D

[Freelance Henchman]

D'OH! *sigh* that's just sucks :(

[Max_Sinister]

Now keep cool, folks. Roy said in #318 that they still want to go back to Azure City to "mooch a teleport off Shojo". We don't know how things will turn out meanwhile... everything is possible...

[taraxia]

I don't care if anyone's already suggested this option, Roy just royally ticked me off in the recent two comics: Couldn't that dork have just written it down?! Memory-erasing spells generally don't work on written records. >_<*

The little orange runt, who probably has a 20+ Int, probably anticipates and prevents such chicanery as well. The whole point is you're not allowed to take out more information than you get from the question and answer themselves, so the Oracle either prevents you from writing anything down or uses his super-cool magic to erase anything that was written down in his tower.

The problem with finding loopholes in rules is that it assumes the NPCs who make the rules aren't at least as smart as you are.

[Delgarde]

Oops... what a time to realise... just as you're stepping past the sign marking the border. And poor Elan... caught Roy in a mistake, but nobody will remember.

[divine]

I like this one, it leaves the next strip way open-ended.. but heck, I like em all..

dorks ;D

[LtPowers]

Yeah, I think the bit where Roy says, "That's what the little orange runt was hinting at the whole time," means that he only made the connection due to the fact that he remembered the Oracle trying to get him to alter the wording of his question. Now that he's been hit with the memory loss, he will only remember the question and answer, and is more likely to dismiss Elan's comment about there being three gates as irrelevent.

Oh, and nice comic. :)

Technically the answer began "Of the two gates you mentioned,..." If they remember the exact answer, maybe that would be enough.


Powers &8^]

[Seedling]

Oops... what a time to realise... just as you're stepping past the sign marking the border. And poor Elan... caught Roy in a mistake, but nobody will remember.

Oh... I'm pretty sure someone will remember.. look closely at frame #1 ;) Someone will remember... but will it do any good?

[Kanashimi]

Loved it. Of course noone can remember that Elan saved the day, but it was still awesome!!!

[Mr_Shrubber]

Loved Belkar's comments, as usual. ;D

[HERE BE SPOILERS]
Perhaps Celia's 'booty talisman' works two ways, so that she can alert the OotS (well, Roy at least) to what's going on. But probably not.

Meanwhile, my money is on Miko teaming up with Xykon. Yes, I know she's technically still a paladin, but surely she's already too far gone not to turn LE...

[Eldhrin]

Oh no! Poor Elan! The one time he's right and they don't remember.

I can imagine numerous ways that they can just miss the arrival of Xykon's army at Azure City. I suspect that Rich has a completely different one coming up.

[kerberos]

Why did they bother with only one question each before leaving?

Now if they had copied down the 'Encyclopedia Belkannica' they could have had as many questions as they want and remembered the answers.

Besides, if the Kobold is to cheap to apply a customer service part then he shouldn't be surprised when his clients decide to take their grievences straight to the manager.

Just goes to show: No good deed (or in this case lack of bad deed) goes unpunished.

[Coffee_Dragon]

Well, that didn't seem too effective after the slating Roy received on the board for the last strip. Having this whole strip revolve about Roy's mistake just draws attention to the fact that it was kind of a Turkey City Lexicon thing to begin with.


There's something that reminds me of Joss Whedon's writing in these recent comics.

Being a great fan of Joss Whedon's writing, I wouldn't mind hearing what you mean. Snippy banter has always been OotS, but I wouldn't really say it's Whedonic snippy banter. Also, your avatar rules.

[ObadiahtheSlim]

You do relize that Elan is now the smartest one in the group.

[warmachine]

Oh dear, now Roy realises that there's a remote possibility that the enemy can do something supposedly impossible.

A thought occurred to me that Durkon should have urged Roy to reconsider his question when he was being stubborn and the Oracle was hinting. That's what friends are for. That's what spiritual advisors are for. Durkon is, if nothing else, dutiful.

This duty to make sure someone doesn't mess up particulary applies to critical information. Even after learning that you'll only go home dead. Alas Durkon is only human, or rather dwarf. This explains why he hasn't said anything in this comic. Poor Durkon.

The leader makes a strategic mistake. The stalwart supporter fails to notice. Doesn't look good for the fate of the world.

[Lyc]

Because the evil psychopath party member is the one on a leash, not the one making the decisions.

Which is why evil always wins because good is dumb! - Dark Helmet



The problem with finding loopholes in rules is that it assumes the NPCs who make the rules aren't at least as smart as you are.

Not quite. The NPC's are only as smart as the DM. ;)

[kerberos]

You do relize that Elan is now the smartest one in the group.
I realize that a blind hen can find a seed as well (Danish saying translated).

[Turalisj]

That was alright. Not quite as funny as the last one, but...

Leave it to Elan to point out the stupidity of others!
MAybe next Belkar will be pointing out Roy's causes of anger.... Heh 8)

[LoH]

Which is why evil always wins because good is dumb! - Dark Helmet


Misquote.

"Now you see that Evil will always triumph, because Good is dumb." - Dark Helmet, "Spaceballs: The Movie"


Remember, this is the culture that created Miko, and which is -- let's be honest here -- based upon numerous non-LG lies and deceptions, and appears to have a serious authoritarianism problem (using Roy's behavior as a counterexample of far-less-Statist-LGness -- Roy is, IMO, a defining example of how to be LG without the AH). I wouldn't be so quick to write off Azure City as 'not worth saving' (or not worth caring about). This is a culture that also produced Hinjo, remember, and there are a lot more paladins like him in the Sapphire Guard than like Miko (who was pretty much an outsider even in the Guard). Also, the City itself would be expected to have a different mood to it (as evidenced by the New Years' celebrations).

My point being, even if the Sapphire Guard had extreme authoritanism issues, Azure City != Sapphire Guard, despite the fact that Shojo runs both (to wit, Shojo's [or Mr. Scruffy's, depending on how you look at it] rule is more akin to a benevolent dictator).

[sakusha]

Oh... I'm pretty sure someone will remember.. look closely at frame #1 ;) Someone will remember... but will it do any good?

I realize that Haley's nowhere in this one at all and Durkon's only in the first frame, but I still have no idea how that's going to help anyone remember unless you'd like to imply that Haley hung back to get another question out of the oracle or somehow keep her memory recorded?

[Freelance Henchman]

I was wondering about a possible cop-out to remember what you said in the Oracle's domain:

1) You need at least two people
2) When reaching the border, one guy crosses it, the other stays behind
3) The person who has not crossed the border yells to the person who did cross it and explains everything they want to remember. Since the other guy is already outside the border, he can remember this stuff.

Obviously this only works if it is only the border-crossing that hits you with selective amnesia.

[ShadeMoon64]

Great as always, Giant! I wonder if Roy would be more upset about overlooking the Azure City gate OR that Elan thought of something he missed? :o

[Niskers]

hehe Elan's smarter than Roy...

[Yorkiebar]

Love it. "Don't feel bad Roy, that whole 'counting' thing gets me confused sometimes too".

One can't help feeling that from the last panel the exact same loop of conversation will occur again. Then again, that wouldn't be as dramatic as going to the wrong gate and having to make a mad dash to save Azure City and Celia.

[Moechi_Vill]

Elan didn't save the day, if he had saved the day he would've also said "Stop, we need to think about this before our memories are wiped!" but instead they keep on walking, Roy included.

Elan almost saved the day.
...

I don't think the same conversation will occur again. Roy probably got his idea or finalized it's form while he was in the Sunken Valley so his thoughts upon entering are likely to concentrate less on how he's going to ask the critter. Even if he suspects he might've posed the wrong question I'm doubtful to wheter he'd go all the way back to ask again just to make sure.

[LostInBrittany]

LOL

"Don't feel bad Roy, that whole 'counting' thing gets me confused sometimes too"

LOL

I loved it, Rich!

[CommanderFalken]

There's something that reminds me of Joss Whedon's writing in these recent comics. But that statement may get me burned to DEATH.

Please explain. I wouldn't complain if it was written like Firefly, as the dialogue is great. But I'd like to know what makes you feel that way.

Great comic, Rich. I saw that coming, at least a little.

[spite48]

That was alright. Not quite as funny as the last one, but...

Leave it to Elan to point out the stupidity of others!

I thought it was a very clever comic. And funny.

[CelestialStick]

Elan didn't save the day, if he had saved the day he would've also said "Stop, we need to think about this before our memories are wiped!" but instead they keep on walking, Roy included.

Elan almost saved the day.
...

I don't think the same conversation will occur again. Roy probably got his idea or finalized it's form while he was in the Sunken Valley so his thoughts upon entering are likely to concentrate less on how he's going to ask the critter. Even if he suspects he might've posed the wrong question I'm doubtful to wheter he'd go all the way back to ask again just to make sure.
I think this points out that the real problem with Elan isn't that he has a low Intelligence score, but rather than he has a low Wisdom score. He has actually time and again showed decent intelligence but an inability to put it to any practical use, as here, where he has the intelligence to figure out the answer, but doesn't have the wisdom to have everyone stop in place before they lose the answer by stepping outside of the valley.

[TinSoldier]

I think this points out that the real problem with Elan isn't that he has a low Intelligence score, but rather than he has a low Wisdom score. He has actually time and again showed decent intelligence but an inability to put it to any practice use, as here, where he has the intelligence to figure out the answer, but doesn't have the wisdom to have everyone stop in place before they lose the answer by stepping outside of the valley.Except for, you know, that counting thing ;D ...

[Brother_Hood]

We can only hope Roy didn't pack enough for a trip to that Gate the oracle mentioned.

Sad thing is, no one remembers the Oracle is a dork, so everyone keeps going back. :)

[chibibar]

hehe... funny stuff... great thing about magic is that it can "correct" anything written or verbal. I'm sure the question roy written was pre-thought out before the oracle anyways so that won't change anything, but if someone was "transcribe" the conversation I'm sure the written word will only display the question and answers only :)

[CelestialStick]

We can only hope Roy didn't pack enough for a trip to that Gate the oracle mentioned.

Sad thing is, no one remembers the Oracle is a dork, so everyone keeps going back. :)




People don't go to see an oracle for his ability to conform to the narrow limits of adolescent notions of acceptable behavior but rather for his ability to accurately predict the future.

[Kedrot]

lmao... that's all i have to say

[Grey Watcher]

Elan's developing a nasty habit of displaying keen insight at the most inconvenient moments. Wasn't he the one that remembered they'd left their horses at the burned down hotel, forcing them to walk to the Oracle instead of riding there?

[Solara]

Honestly Roy...next time something like this happens, stop walking long enough to write on your hand.

That stupid crayon Belkar always carries might have actually been usefull for once...

[Alfryd]

New comic is up.
Very good.


Oh, and I can't wait to see Miko, Hinjo, and Shojo (and Mr. Scruffy!) take on Xykon and his minions!

Wonder if Miko gets to be the one to get the OotS?
That is overwhelmingly probable. I'm guessing she might have company next time, though.

But hey... if they remember the answers, do they still remember the questions? Seems to me that Elan's observation is equally valid even if they don't remember anything other than the questions or answers.
Correct. If Roy and Elan remember the exact wording of the questions and the exact wording of the answers, this conversation should recur in time. That Roy remebered getting 3 questions last time, and the fact he remembered the Oracle being a wise-ass beforehand, indicates this is the case.
Plot dynamics, however, dictate the whole incident will be forgotten until... *sigh*... Miko comes to slay them for their apparent betrayal of the entire city, while fleeing like cowards to a location hundreds of miles away.

Or maybe he just does remember the whole chain of answers, and not just the "final" answer, and it'll all be good.
Could be.


. . .well, but then, it occurred to me that, really, who do they (or we) really care about in Azure City? Ummm. . .Hinjo, AFAIC, and really, that's about it.
Evil much?
Roy, Elan, and Durkon are all Good characters, and therefore have at least a nominal attachment to thousands of lives innocent of any proven wrongdoing. As, by association, would I.

...having to make a mad dash to save Azure City and Celia.
Celia is gone already. Pay attention.


Oh, and the next time we see Miko? A very undead ex-paladin. Mwahaha!
I dunno. I can't easily imagine her remaining an anti-villain in that role. If she embraces it willingly, she's a villain, and if compelled, she's not in the villain's role.

Meanwhile, my money is on Miko teaming up with Xykon...
Antagonist, not villain.


Would he have to just hang back and twitch at the thought of all that stabbity going on that he can't participate in?
Or use non-lethal damage. It's a -4 penalty, but he's far from useless. Plus, there's plenty of undead he can focus on.

[Messy]

</lurk>

Just a thought here...

Let's say, for the sake of discussion, that OotS and Xykon's army accidentally end up in Azure City at the same time and it's necessary for OotS to fend off the brigades of hobgoblins.

I don't recall any caveats or exemptions in Belkar's Mark of Justice curse that would allow him to lay waste to hordes of hobgoblins in defense of the city.

Would he have to just hang back and twitch at the thought of all that stabbity going on that he can't participate in?
You're partially correct, as Belkar could not attack the hobgoblins or Redcloak. But I believe the mark doesn't stop him from fighting Xykon himself and all his undead minions. This is all, assuming of course, that TOOTS go to Azure City. :P

On a side note, CelestialStick, I personally disapprove of your new avatar. :)

I can see this happening:
Elan: But Roy, there were TWO gates, not three.
Roy: Xykon would never attack Azure City, it's too well guarded!
Elan: Oh...I suppose you're right...
(or something along those lines)
*TOOTS arrives in Azure City, teleport away just as Xykon arrives and begins terrorizing.*
Then, while they're waiting in the desert, the newly reformed Linear Guild appears, with Julia as a captive.
(or something along those lines)

But, then I think, and knowing Rich, I would have to say that it's going to be something totally unpredictable. Great comic.

[SilverOkainol]

Chances of evil victory: Very High
Chances of "DM Fiat": 98%

[Fishies]

Hehe, suckers!

[Evik]

alas poor Roy
well at least he is blissfully ignorant of his inpending failure

[CelestialStick]

On a side note, CelestialStick, I personally disapprove of your new avatar. :)
Really? Why's that?

[gooddragon1]

Xykon better have a way to sneak in or Azure city is going to lay down the pwnage.
Reasons(spoiler)
1-Full Standing Army (with clerics of healing+7)>Hobgoblin Attk Force
2-Paladins+Clerics>evil/undead forces
3-From the previous comic we see the attackers rushing into battle which indicates lack of sneak tactics
4-Xykon is evil=15 smite evil from range by paladins=pwnage!

[gadren]

So, are those clouds in the background, or mountains?

[Krytha]

Why not both?

[Devils_Advocate]

Just one rhetorical question: Why in the world did they keep walking? :P
Yeah, that IS odd. I'd at least expect Roy to halt in his tracks before saying "We need to go back!"


[spoiler?]
I'm hoping Durkon will remind everyone exactly what they'd been talking about in the next strip and respond to all the wondering stares with "What? I made my will save"
The charm worked on him the first time, though. Most likely it doesn't allow a save, or any large group of sufficient level would probably have at least one person remember everything.


First panel was annoying, Durkon visible to right of panel showing he was in front. :-/
Eh? Why's that annoying?


On the other hand no sight of Haley and she might have been behind the rest of the group (Gold! Hers + that paid by the rest of the group + that paid by past visitors! Answers...AND TREASURE!). ;D
I doubt they'd leave without Haley, so she's probably in front of Durkon.


You do relize that Elan is now the smartest one in the group.
[8-bit Theater]I'd cry, but there aren't enough tears.[/8BT]


Chances of evil victory: Very High
Maybe a temporary victory. But let's not forget that ultimately, there will be a happy ending for at least Elan.


Chances of "DM Fiat": 98%
Guaranteeing a happy ending might require a little fiat, yep. ;D

[The_Magpie]

Just one rhetorical question: Why in the world did they keep walking? :P
Why? Because the laws of Comedic Physics compelled them! ;)

[The Glitter Ninja]

Elan must have really succeeded on his intelligence roll. Go Elan!

[Messy]

Elan must have really succeeded on his intelligence roll. Go Elan!

Bardic Lore for the win! ;)

CelestialStick, Superman is overrated. He's way too strong, and since he flies as fast as Flash, makes him obsolete! I'm not saying his comics are real bad, just that the hero is a bad concept.

Okay, back on topic now. ;D

[Flak_Razorwill]

Like I said, if my love dies, there WILL be blood.

[SPoD]

CelestialStick, Superman is overrated. He's way too strong, and since he flies as fast as Flash, makes him obsolete! I'm not saying his comics are real bad, just that the hero is a bad concept.

My nerd-girl rage is rising...

Superman's creation predates that of the Flash by several years. Superman is the original superhero, from which all others were derived (note the word "super" in the word "superhero"). That means that if either character were flawed, it would be the Flash, who would be a "bad concept" for failing to have any power not already possessed by Superman--not the other way around.

Although, that's not really true and your entire statement is false because the Flash has many powers that Superman doesn't, such as the ability to actually think at the speed of light, vibrate through walls or dimensions, travel through time, and (in recent incarnations) grant others superspeed for short periods, whereas Superman simply moves really freaking fast. To be more specific, the Flash could finish a 100,000 piece jigsaw puzzle in 1 second, because he can process the information of the pieces fast enough, while Superman could not.

[Krytha]

Like I said, if my love dies, there WILL be blood.

I didn't notice before, but that motivational poster is HOT!

[gadren]

My nerd-girl rage is rising...

Superman's creation predates that of the Flash by several years. Superman is the original superhero, from which all others were derived (note the word "super" in the word "superhero"). That means that if either character were flawed, it would be the Flash, who would be a "bad concept" for failing to have any power not already possessed by Superman--not the other way around.

Although, that's not really true and your entire statement is false because the Flash has many powers that Superman doesn't, such as the ability to actually think at the speed of light, vibrate through walls or dimensions, travel through time, and (in recent incarnations) grant others superspeed for short periods, whereas Superman simply moves really freaking fast. To be more specific, the Flash could finish a 100,000 piece jigsaw puzzle in 1 second, because he can process the information of the pieces fast enough, while Superman could not.

I hate to go off topic as well, but I'd like to point out that Superman being more powerful than other super heroes does not make him a "bad" character.
That's like saying Elminster is a bad character because he renders Vaarsuvius "obsolete" by being able to do everything V can do, but better.
If Superman used his near god-like power to do whatever he felt like, then, yeah, the comic would have gotten old real fast. But the moral dillemas of having such power make it very interesting, in my opinion.

[DwaggieBard]

I also think that because superman is the 'origional' superhero, he was nowhere near a 'bad concept' at the time

[1337_master]

:o

NEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRDDDDDDDDDDDD DDDDSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS,

by the 9 hells, it just came up today and their are now 9 pages of this thread...
so all I can say is OH MY F***ING GOD

[Buzzaro]

Is it August yet?

I am really enjoying where the story is going. I'll see you in Indy in August.

[CelestialStick]

My nerd-girl rage is rising...

Superman's creation predates that of the Flash by several years. Superman is the original superhero, from which all others were derived (note the word "super" in the word "superhero"). That means that if either character were flawed, it would be the Flash, who would be a "bad concept" for failing to have any power not already possessed by Superman--not the other way around.

Although, that's not really true and your entire statement is false because the Flash has many powers that Superman doesn't, such as the ability to actually think at the speed of light, vibrate through walls or dimensions, travel through time, and (in recent incarnations) grant others superspeed for short periods, whereas Superman simply moves really freaking fast. To be more specific, the Flash could finish a 100,000 piece jigsaw puzzle in 1 second, because he can process the information of the pieces fast enough, while Superman could not.
Superman does predate the Flash by two years (1938 v. 1940 in publication, although Superman actually goes back at least as early as 1934 in a Siegel and Shuster comic book that DC wouldn't publish), so you're right that if anyone is derivative and unnecessary because of duplication of superpowers, it would be the Flash.

The Silver Age Superman was as fast as the Flash, but in terms of not liking Superman, who cares? The fact that Flash can replicate or exceed one of Superman's many superpowers doesn't make either one of them bad or obsolete. Superman is cool not just because he has many superpowers and is as you say the original comic book superhero, but also because he's the most virtuous man on the planet. Superman has been and remains a shining exemplar of goodness. Flash, as a member of the original Justice Society of America and then the Justice League of America, was no slouch in the virtues department either.

I must say that I enjoyed the Bruce Timm version of Flash/Wally West in Justice League and Justice League Unlimited. There's a great scene in the three-part second season-finale, Star Crossed, in which the JL members (minus Hawkgirl, who is working for the invading Thanagarians) escape from the Thanagarians and flee in order to regroup and fight the invasion. J'onn J'onz (Martian Manhunter) suggests that they need to blend in, and takes on a human form. The Flash says something about how he trusts them all, but, um, what about keeping their secret identities? Then a frustrated Batman points at him and says, "Wally West," then at Superman and says "Clark Kent" and finally at himself and says, "Bruce Wayne" and then pulls off his cowl. Flash says, "show off" and then pulls off his own cowl, revealing red hair. Diana (Wonder Woman) says something like, "A red head--it suits you" and then tousels his hair. It's a great scene, and it wouldn't have been possible without the wise-cracking but sensitive Flash.

So the moral of the story is that you can love Superman and still think the Flash is great--or vice versa. :D




I hate to go off topic as well, but I'd like to point out that Superman being more powerful than other super heroes does not make him a "bad" character.
That's like saying Elminster is a bad character because he renders Vaarsuvius "obsolete" by being able to do everything V can do, but better.
If Superman used his near god-like power to do whatever he felt like, then, yeah, the comic would have gotten old real fast. But the moral dillemas of having such power make it very interesting, in my opinion.

The Silver Age Superman and the Superman of the movies had near godlike powers. After 1985 DC toned down Superman's powers a great deal, though I understand that he has once again grown powerful enough to shift small planets (Pluto) in their orbits.

A lesser man would be corrupted by such power. Part of the Superman legend is that he's virtuous enough to resist that corruption. Indeed he's the boy scout (or the paladin) of the superheroes. That's a strong part of the appeal of Superman. Regularly in the comics we see people who gain lesser powers who immediately get corrupted.

[Acksiom]

You are forgetting Mr Scruffy and his caretaker.

Er, no, actually, I'm not.

In fact, very deliberately not.




I wouldn't be so quick to write off Azure City as 'not worth saving' (or not worth caring about). This is a culture that also produced Hinjo, remember, and there are a lot more paladins like him in the Sapphire Guard than like Miko (who was pretty much an outsider even in the Guard). Also, the City itself would be expected to have a different mood to it (as evidenced by the New Years' celebrations).

My point being, even if the Sapphire Guard had extreme authoritanism issues, Azure City != Sapphire Guard, despite the fact that Shojo runs both (to wit, Shojo's [or Mr. Scruffy's, depending on how you look at it] rule is more akin to a benevolent dictator).

True enough, but I'm not seeing anything there which motivates me to change my mind.

Sure, Hinjo's a 'nice guy', and all, but neither that, nor, disturbingly, his Paladinhood, has stopped him from falling prey to the false premise that not just an "authority's" "heavy burden", but merely an inherited one, justifies behaving as though mere reputation is more important than true integrity. As I said originally, I think the kid needs seasoning; I shan't go beyond that for fear of Spoiliation, upon whose limits I fear I have already pressed.

Let's not forget, either, that Shojo is running a massive con because there are, supposedly, serious competitors for his job as "benevolent dictator" -- a highly dubious oxymoron all its own, and one which, by my reading, was originally intended as an ironic satire rather than any kind of intellectually valid characterization.

Anyways -- that power struggle is one of the primary problems with dictatorships: there's no guarantee regarding the benevolence of the next dictator. Mad Lord Snapcase, anyone?

And last but not least, I consider the citizenry of Azure City -- or any such autonomous collective -- to fundamentally share responsibility for their State's authorities' actions, and their own governance.




Evil much?

No; True Neutral plenty, though.




Roy, Elan, and Durkon are all Good characters, and therefore have at least a nominal attachment to thousands of lives innocent of any proven wrongdoing. As, by association, would I.

Good point. I take back the 'they' and 'we'; it's just me.

But then again, my favorite line in Airplane! is the classic quote from the Point/Counterpoint scene:

"They bought their tickets! They knew what they were getting into!"

<turns, looks straight into camera>

"I say, let them crash!"

[Imrix.]

You know, it occurs to me that, won't Roy head back to Azure City ANYWAY? Comic 318, he said he was going to find out which gate, then pop back to Azure City and demand a teleport spell. So, won't they just turn up for the siege anyway?

[Kanashimi]

That would depend on how fast Xykon and his people are moving. My guess is Rich has them moving at the "speed of plot"and they either will arrive so that Roy can confront them or not, depending on what Rich wants them to do.

[CelestialStick]

That would depend on how fast Xykon and his people are moving. My guess is Rich has them moving at the "speed of plot"and they either will arrive so that Roy can confront them or not, depending on what Rich wants them to do.

Exactly. It will all work out for Roy to confront Xykon again. :)

[Saithis Bladewing]

Superman is cool not just because he has many superpowers and is as you say the original comic book superhero, but also because he's the most virtuous man on the planet. Superman has been and remains a shining exemplar of goodness.

What Superman are you looking at? Because the Superman I've come to know and love... (http://www.superdickery.com/****/1.html)

[CelestialStick]

What Superman are you looking at? Because the Superman I've come to know and love... (http://www.superdickery.com/****/1.html)

Don't you kids ever get tired of that nonsense? ::)

[UtherSRG]

You do relize that Elan is now the smartest one in the group.
*shudder*

Of course, I only just started playing D&D again last year... I stopped around the time 2nd edition came out. My first character in 3.5? A Bard. And I hadn't started reading OotS at that point, but everyone else in the group had, and were making great jokes about me, in reference to Elan. :)

[UtherSRG]

I was wondering about a possible cop-out to remember what you said in the Oracle's domain:

1) You need at least two people
2) When reaching the border, one guy crosses it, the other stays behind
3) The person who has not crossed the border yells to the person who did cross it and explains everything they want to remember. Since the other guy is already outside the border, he can remember this stuff.

Obviously this only works if it is only the border-crossing that hits you with selective amnesia.


Right, but more likely, it's a linked spell across the whole group. Remember, the Oracle had to make sure that the orcularities spell would recognize the group so that the answers would come to him. Odd, though, that the description didn't include the raven..

Anyway, if the spell is linked across the whole group, it is likely that the erasure will be triggered by the first person to cross the threshold.

[Imrix.]

Define "group", thne pick somebody outside said group for the job.

[Steward]

Why would you want to remember what he said, apart from the answers to your question? Most of them were insults, lies, or just really, really depressing.

[Alfryd]

Anyways -- that power struggle is one of the primary problems with dictatorships: there's no guarantee regarding the benevolence of the next dictator. Mad Lord Snapcase, anyone?
Theoretically, the constant threat of Aristocrat reprisals acts as a check on the autocratic power of the city's leaders. Anything *seriously* malevolent would unite the Nobles against the dictator, whether he's purporting to be senile or not. At present, the fact that each noble assumes a given unpopular decision was just another noble's idea indicates Shojo can't be doing serious damage.
Also, I *like* Miko. Warts and all.

No; True Neutral plenty, though.
I dunno. If you were there, indifference to the imminent slaughter of thousands would kinda verge on passive Evil.


That would depend on how fast Xykon and his people are moving. My guess is Rich has them moving at the "speed of plot"and they either will arrive so that Roy can confront them or not, depending on what Rich wants them to do.
Roy said it will only take a few days to reach the Oracle, Xykon was going to take several weeks to reach Azure City. The decision is already evident.


...he's the most virtuous man on the planet. Superman has been and remains a shining exemplar of goodness.
Goodness is easy enough when there's essentially no personal risk involved. In much the same way that Evil is.

[Sabby]

Don't know if this has been covered yet - but where's Haley? She's not in any of the panels on #332.

[Steward]

Don't know if this has been covered yet - but where's Haley? She's not in any of the panels on #332.




The Linear Guild surprised her off-panel and kidnapped her to get at Elanicalicus.

[xyzchyx]

Don't know if this has been covered yet - but where's Haley? She's not in any of the panels on #332.I have a theory, but it would qualify as a spoiler... it could be most entertaining if I'm right, on account of Haley's inability to be comprehensible.

[charik]

I have a theory, but it would qualify as a spoiler... it could be most entertaining if I'm right, on account of Haley's inability to be comprehensible.
Type it in beige here, or start a thread titled "Where's Haley?[Spoiler]" and just type normal black.

Saint :P King Steward wrote:
Why would you want to remember what he said, apart from the answers to your question? Most of them were insults, lies, or just really, really depressing.

Lies? I don't remember any lies. There were purported predictions that we won't know until later if they're true, but lies? (I chose the stick-out-tongue smilie because there isn't any gag-reflex smilie to put there. :D)

[NEO|Phyte]

Lies? I don't remember any lies. There were purported predictions that we won't know until later if they're true, but lies? (I chose the stick-out-tongue smilie because there isn't any gag-reflex smilie to put there. :D)

... then what is :-X supposed to be?

[UtherSRG]

Define "group", thne pick somebody outside said group for the job.
No good. The Oracle defines the group, since he's casting the spell. You can't pick someone to not be in the group just because you want it that way. If I were the Oracle, I'd cast my net far enough so that anyone who has any information I want forgotten is within the group, as well as anyone they tell that informaiton to before the ersure part of the spell activates.

[Steward]

Type it in beige here, or start a thread titled "Where's Haley?[Spoiler]" and just type normal black.

Saint :P King Steward wrote:
Why would you want to remember what he said, apart from the answers to your question? Most of them were insults, lies, or just really, really depressing.

Lies? I don't remember any lies. There were purported predictions that we won't know until later if they're true, but lies? (I chose the stick-out-tongue smilie because there isn't any gag-reflex smilie to put there. :D)

I consider "lies" to be "deceptions", as well. So if I asked you a question and you knew what kind of answer I wanted but deliberately gave me an ambiguous or needlessly vague (or precise) answer, it would be lying.

"Where's the toilet?"
"In the bathroom."

[humanpylon]

I consider "lies" to be "deceptions", as well. So if I asked you a question and you knew what kind of answer I wanted but deliberately gave me an ambiguous or needlessly vague (or precise) answer, it would be lying.

"Where's the toilet?"
"In the bathroom."

I wouldn't call a vague answer lying, just sneaky. Sort of like Durkon covering for the order by saying "the five of us never left the cell".

As for the toilet question that's just being a smartass. Which is fine with me.

[Steward]

I wouldn't call a vague answer lying, just sneaky. Sort of like Durkon covering for the order by saying "the five of us never left the cell".

As for the toilet question that's just being a smartass. Which is fine with me.


That doesn't make it the truth, though. Deliberately misinterpreting a question so that you can give an answer that you know isn't the intended answer isn't telling the truth.

Maybe I should have modified it to say that most of what he said was, "insults, untruths, or just really, really depressing."

[xyzchyx]

That doesn't make it the truth, though. Deliberately misinterpreting a question so that you can give an answer that you know isn't the intended answer isn't telling the truth.I'd have to disagree with you there.

It's actually using the truth to cause the person who is listening to deceive themselves because of what they expect about an answer. It's arguably deceptive on the part of the speaker to deliberately do this sort of thing, but it's definitely not lying, and it's certainly not being untruthful.

[Steward]

I'd have to disagree with you there.

It's actually using the truth to cause the person who is listening to deceive themselves because of what they expect about an answer. It's arguably deceptive on the part of the speaker to deliberately do this sort of thing, but it's definitely not lying, and it's certainly not being untruthful.

Huh. I've always considered twisting the truth to deceive people as being untruthful. Sort of like that toilet question I just made up. Technically, the toiler is in the bathroom but both the speaker and the answerer both know that the person wants to find out to get to the toilet. It's definitely not being honest or truthful.

[xyzchyx]

Huh. I've always considered twisting the truth to deceive people as being untruthful. Sort of like that toilet question I just made up. Technically, the toiler is in the bathroom but both the speaker and the answerer both know that the person wants to find out to get to the toilet. It's definitely not being honest or truthful. I don't even think it is necessarily twisting the truth, but ironically it's still deceptive if that is the deliberate intent of the person answering.

[Steward]

I don't even think it is necessarily twisting the truth, but ironically it's still deceptive if that is the deliberate intent of the person answering.


In the Oracle's case, then yeah, he's definitely twisting the truth to be deceptive.

[Holy_Knight]

I must say that I enjoyed the Bruce Timm version of Flash/Wally West in Justice League and Justice League Unlimited. There's a great scene in the three-part second season-finale, Star Crossed, in which the JL members (minus Hawkgirl, who is working for the invading Thanagarians) escape from the Thanagarians and flee in order to regroup and fight the invasion. J'onn J'onz (Martian Manhunter) suggests that they need to blend in, and takes on a human form. The Flash says something about how he trusts them all, but, um, what about keeping their secret identities? Then a frustrated Batman points at him and says, "Wally West," then at Superman and says "Clark Kent" and finally at himself and says, "Bruce Wayne" and then pulls off his cowl. Flash says, "show off" and then pulls off his own cowl, revealing red hair. Diana (Wonder Woman) says something like, "A red head--it suits you" and then tousels his hair. It's a great scene, and it wouldn't have been possible without the wise-cracking but sensitive Flash.

So the moral of the story is that you can love Superman and still think the Flash is great--or vice versa. :D
And the other moral is that Batman is totally awesome, knows everything, and is always right. :D

By the way, the issue of who knows whose secret identity in the Justice League has been important on a few occasions, as there have been some recent storylines in which it made a big difference that some of them knew each other's identities and others didn't. One of these had Batman having to convince half of the JLA to search for the "criminal" Bruce Wayne, while separately filling in those who knew it was him about the deeper plot involved.

Also, as for the Flash/Superman thing, Flash is much faster than Superman. (I will go on record as saying that him being able to think at the speed of light is kind of stupid, though...) but in any case, Flash wins in a footrace hands down.

Also, I've liked the last few comics, especially Elan getting yet another lollipop, and being smarter than Roy here.

Also, magic missile.

[Axl_Rose]

lol, that was pretty funny.

[charik]

In the Oracle's case, then yeah, he's definitely twisting the truth to be deceptive.
The Oracle provides factually correct answers to the questions asked, as those questions are phrased by the person asking the question. If the questioner asks a vaguely phrased question, it's their own fault for getting an answer that doesn't answer the question they should have asked. Which is exactly why Roy was so careful in how he phrased his question this time around.

Your claim that the Oracle knows that his answers are not the ones the questioners want can only be true if the Oracle knows all thoughts. However, the O serves a deity, not is one.

Now, if you ask a grocery clerk "Do you have Prince Albert in a can?" and they say "Yes" and you respond "Well, you better let him out!", does that mean the clerk lied because they had a different interpretation of your question than you did?

[CelestialStick]

And the other moral is that Batman is totally awesome, knows everything, and is always right. :D

By the way, the issue of who knows whose secret identity in the Justice League has been important on a few occasions, as there have been some recent storylines in which it made a big difference that some of them knew each other's identities and others didn't. One of these had Batman having to convince half of the JLA to search for the "criminal" Bruce Wayne, while separately filling in those who knew it was him about the deeper plot involved.

Also, as for the Flash/Superman thing, Flash is much faster than Superman. (I will go on record as saying that him being able to think at the speed of light is kind of stupid, though...) but in any case, Flash wins in a footrace hands down.

The current Flash is faster than the current Superman. That was not always the case however--the Silver Age Superman and Flash had about the same top speed, thus the classic story of their foot race. Bruce Timm revived that concept in an episode of Justice League in which he had them race again.

[Acksiom]

Theoretically, the constant threat of Aristocrat reprisals acts as a check on the autocratic power of the city's leaders.

Unfortunately, however, this affects either of them when it comes to how they treat my tender pink effectively peasant buttocks. . .?

Ay, that's the rub.

Or unwarrentedly elitist spank, as the case may be.



Anything *seriously* malevolent would unite the Nobles against the dictator, whether he's purporting to be senile or not.

Sure, but see above -- as a True Neutral individualist, I'm not necessarily willing to put up with even just a little bit of "ruling" class malevolence.

In fact, not really any, to be honest.



At present, the fact that each noble assumes a given unpopular decision was just another noble's idea indicates Shojo can't be doing serious damage.

Um, no, actually, it doesn't. Because that proposition assumes that any particular member of the "nobility's" definition of 'damage' (let alone 'serious') has a meaningful correlation with reality.

Which has not, in fact, been conclusively demonstrated.



Also, I *like* Miko. Warts and all.

I know, but I'll talk to you with the usual amount of respect anyways.

:P



I dunno. If you were there, indifference to the imminent slaughter of thousands would kinda verge on passive Evil.

I see. So, then, IYO, anyone incapable of meaningful combat capacity who flees such a disaster (oh, I don't know, how about LOTS AND LOTS OF CHILDREN OR ELDERLY INCOMPETENTS AND THEIR CAREGIVERS) is therefore subject to your characterization as verging on 'passive evil'?

Because, you know, if you want to get personal, I actually do belong in the latter of the above categories (I've been my father's 24/7 caregiver for a decade now, and am furthermore also now responsible for my mother's derivatory care as well).

However, I cut my teeth on the LMB-List when it comes to this sort of thing, so I'll just keep my further personal aesthetic plot preferences to myself, as in don't want to ruin anything for Rich.



Goodness is easy enough when there's essentially no personal risk involved. In much the same way that Evil is.

Meh. For myself, I would say that it isn't really Good or Evil UNLESS meaningful personal risk is involved.

But then I believe in -- to quote the old sausage, of all things, advertising slogan -- a higher standard. :P

[The Glitter Ninja]

Don't know if this has been covered yet - but where's Haley? She's not in any of the panels on #332.




She must be at the front of the party. You can see a little of Durkon in front of Belkar, so I assume Haley is in front of Durkon.

[rosebud]

In the Oracle's case, then yeah, he's definitely twisting the truth to be deceptive.The first time (before OOTS started) he was being annoying, but in this sequence, he tried to get Roy to ask the correct question but Roy insisted on asking a wrong one. So the Oracle answered it. Since he was cranky from not being able to have his bath and wanted them gone, he wasn't exactly in the mood to answer more than the question that was asked. Anyhow, it's not going to matter given that that is the story that the author wrote and it will go its way by design. So, relax, and enjoy the ride. :)

PS The bathroom is just down the hall. Hope that helps.
PPS Oh, yeah, I forgot to mention the deep, uncovered spiked pit that also resides on the way down the hall. You didn't bother to ask about that, and I forgot about it until you reminded me with the loud thud.

[Coffee_Dragon]

That was not always the case however--the Silver Age Superman and Flash had about the same top speed, thus the classic story of their foot race.

The one where they keep getting tripped up by gangsters who've bet on the race? I've actually read that.

[CelestialStick]

Goodness is easy enough when there's essentially no personal risk involved. In much the same way that Evil is.

Goodness is the faith of near-absolute power would be nearly impossible for all but the absolutely most virtuous. Indeed I think it fair to say that in real life no human people could possess near absolute power without it corrupting him or her.

Woot! That's exactly the one! Ah, those where the days. For some reason one fram that sticks in my mind had the two of them reaching a railroad crossing as a train went by. Each of them true to character, Flash actually ran between two cars of the train while Superman leaped over it. Man that was great.

In the Justice League animated series version the two of them have armbands designed to locate them on a map for the world for the news media, but they also collected static electricity generated by the two of them running fast. A villain named the Weather Master wanted the electricity to power his weather control device with which he planned to take over the world. The funny thing is that even though watched that episode last week, I still don't remember it all that much better than the original from 40 years ago. I might go watch it again. :D



The first time (before OOTS started) he was being annoying, but in this sequence, he tried to get Roy to ask the correct question but Roy insisted on asking a wrong one. So the Oracle answered it.
Yes, given that the Oracle works for Tiamat, his attempt to get Roy to ask the right question seemed particularly generous.

[BigHuckinChicken]

Don't know if this has been covered yet - but where's Haley? She's not in any of the panels on #332.




Maybe Haley was in the shower. She likes to keep herself fresh.

[CelestialStick]

Maybe Haley was in the shower. She likes to keep herself fresh.

Haley? Who's that? ;)

[BigHuckinChicken]

Haley? Who's that? ;)

You know, the hot one. How can you forget Haley, especially after the "still dripping from the shower" scene at the trial? Never thought I'd see such a hot stick figure.

[CelestialStick]

You know, the hot one. How can you forget Haley, especially after the "still dripping from the shower" scene at the trial? Never thought I'd see such a hot stick figure.


Oh that Haley. It's been so long since she did anything that I forgot about her. ;)




Woot! That's exactly the one! Ah, those where the days. For some reason one fram that sticks in my mind had the two of them reaching a railroad crossing as a train went by. Each of them true to character, Flash actually ran between two cars of the train while Superman leaped over it. Man that was great.

In the Justice League animated series version the two of them have armbands designed to locate them on a map for the world for the news media, but they also collected static electricity generated by the two of them running fast. A villain named the Weather Master wanted the electricity to power his weather control device with which he planned to take over the world. The funny thing is that even though watched that episode last week, I still don't remember it all that much better than the original from 40 years ago. I might go watch it again. :D

Correction: The (more recent) race between Flash and Superman takes place in the first season of Superman: The Animated Series in an episode titled, "Speed Demons" which I'm going to watch again now. :D

Edit: In the episode they refer to "ionic energy" and the guy calls himself the Weather Wizard.

Edit 2: And he wants a billion dollars rather than to take over the world.

A different actor voiced the Flash in this episode than later in the Justice League.

This was really a good episode.

[Alfryd]

Goodness is the faith of near-absolute power would be nearly impossible for all but the absolutely most virtuous.
Why? What's so attractive about Evil when your personal welfare is already guaranteed?
Secondly, if you only behaved in an ostensibly good fashion because you lacked the power to do otherwise, you weren't Good in the first place.

Look, saving a bus-full of people from hurtling into a raging forest fire in the canyon below is all well and good, but the amount of effort expended on Clark's part is roughly equivalent to swatting a fly. Attaboy, Supes, but really, where's the heroism? Because he *doesn't* go on a global killing spree at the first opportunity?
Ah, the patented Belkar Bitterleaf heroism litmus test.


And the other moral is that Batman is totally awesome, knows everything, and is always right.
Praise Batman!



Or unwarrentedly elitist spank, as the case may be...
Because that proposition assumes that any particular member of the "nobility's" definition of 'damage' (let alone 'serious') has a meaningful correlation with reality.
Which has not, in fact, been conclusively demonstrated.
It's true that the interest of the Nobles and the interests of the remaining 99% of the population would not neccesarily closely correlate. But neither is it fair to say that Shojo has unlimited autocratic power. And it *is* reasonable to assume that the nobles depend on their vassals to a large extent for their material welfare- after all, they need someone to parasitise. So anything seriously damaging to the peasantry at large without corresponding benefits to the nobility would invite universal reprisals from the nobles. Sure, it's not a perfect system, but what is?
At present, however, the only members of the Nobility we've been acquainted with *do* have a moderately sound grasp on the concept of 'serious damage', namely, Miko, Shojo, and Hinjo. Which is a 100% success rate as far as I'm concerned.
Besdies, by your logic, 99% of all the people who have ever lived deserved to die nastily for their conspicuous failure to inhabit pluralistic liberal democracies like wot we does.


So, then, IYO, anyone incapable of meaningful combat capacity who flees such a disaster... is therefore subject to your characterization as verging on 'passive evil'?
Assuming they *only* flee, correct. You don't neccesarily need combat capacity to help others in such a situation. You could stop to help others pack their belongings, find exits, distract marauders, etc. The key word here is 'indifference.' Calamities of this magnitutde force you to take sides.

I know, but I'll talk to you with the usual amount of respect anyways.
Clearly, given this is your 'usual' amount of respect.

[CelestialStick]

Why? What's so attractive about Evil when your personal welfare is already guaranteed?
Secondly, if you only behaved in an ostensibly good fashion because you lacked the power to do otherwise, you weren't Good in the first place.

Good people are regularly corrupted by power. That's the nature of power. Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely.


Look, saving a bus-full of people from hurtling into a raging forest fire in the canyon below is all well and good, but the amount of effort expended on Clark's part is roughly equivalent to swatting a fly. Attaboy, Supes, but really, where's the heroism? Because he *doesn't* go on a global killing spree at the first opportunity?
Ah, the patented Belkar Bitterleaf heroism litmus test.

Superman regularly puts himself in life-threatening situations, fighting opponents with the ability to hurt him. But of course one need not put oneself in life-threatening situations in order to do good. Most people do not spend much time doing good for anyone in the first place, and if they had superpowers wouldn't cruise around looking to save people from forest fires or bus accidents.

[Alfryd]

Good people are regularly corrupted by power. That's the nature of power. Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
*Apparently* Good people are often corrupted by power. As for absolute power, or something close to it, Gandhi, Roosevelt, Marcus Aurelius, etc. were all on balance roughly Good-aligned. I substantially doubt that if you did a systematic survey of top religious and political leaders that their moral conduct is actually substantially worse than the average guy. They just get more scrutiny.

One has to put oneself in life-threatening situations in order to do good?
To do Good, No. But Heroism should (a) involve a significant expenditure of effort and (b) significant personal risk. Bill Gates, conceivably, does a huge amount of good though his AIDS research donation, but the effort expended and risk involved doing so is negligible, so it's scarcely Heroic. Hell, Angelina Jolie is probably more so.

[CelestialStick]

*Apparently* Good people are often corrupted by power. As for absolute power, or something close to it, Gandhi, Roosevelt, Marcus Aurelius, etc. were all on balance roughly Good-aligned.
To do Good, No. But Heroism should (a) involve a significant expenditure of effort and (b) significant personal risk. Bill Gates, conceivably, does a huge amount of good though his AIDS research donation, but the effort expended and risk involved doing so is negligible, so it's scarcely Heroic. Hell, Angelina Jolie is probably more so.


You think Roosevelt was good-aligned? Well that explains a great deal about why you hate Superman.

[Alfryd]

CelestialStick and I appear to have entered a weird editing-feedback loop, so I'll start again.

You think Roosevelt was good-aligned? Well that explains a great deal about why you hate Superman.
CG, but G, yes. He undermined personal liberties leading to the Hoover FBI era, started the unhealthy US tryst with Saudi royalty, and probably lied about foreknowledge of Pearl Harbour. But he also restored sane, compassionate economic policies that led to an era of tremendous economic expansion and helped topple two rather nasty and repressive foreign regimes intent on conquest and genocide.
I don't hate Superman, and agree he's LG. I just don't think he's especially heroic.

Superman regularly puts himself in life-threatening situations, fighting opponents with the ability to hurt him.
That might arguably be called a pre-emptive strike. 99% of cases, these characters have an existing grudge against him. And only very rarely can their destructive power really match his own, so it's scarcely an even contest even then. I recall that the Alex Ross-illustrated Justice miniseries required Solomon Grundy, Bizarro, Metallo and Parasite acting in concert to reliably take him out. None alone were close to a match.

[Holy_Knight]

But Heroism should (a) involve a significant expenditure of effort and (b) significant personal risk. Bill Gates, conceivably, does a huge amount of good though his AIDS research donation, but the effort expended and risk involved doing so is negligible, so it's scarcely Heroic. Hell, Angelina Jolie is probably more so.
I think you're being too harsh, Alfryd. I agree with CS that Superman is heroic, because even in the cases where he's not at significant physical risk, he still sacrifices his time, energy, and in some ways well-being in order to help others. He is uniquely equipped to do so, certainly--but that doesn't change the fact that instead of making his own life easier or just not worrying about what happens to other people, he takes it upon himself to rescue, uplift, and otherwise aid complete strangers every day of his life--even when it negatively impacts his own happiness.

[humanpylon]

Bill Gates, conceivably, does a huge amount of good though his AIDS research donation, but the effort expended and risk involved doing so is negligible, so it's scarcely Heroic. Hell, Angelina Jolie is probably more so.

Wow you know we've wandered off topic when we start comparing the heroism factor of Bill Gates and Angelina Jolie.

[Steward]

The Oracle provides factually correct answers to the questions asked, as those questions are phrased by the person asking the question. If the questioner asks a vaguely phrased question, it's their own fault for getting an answer that doesn't answer the question they should have asked. Which is exactly why Roy was so careful in how he phrased his question this time around.

In real life, most people don't feel the need to talk as if they've had Mr. Jones write all of their sentences, because they feel safe in assuming that someone who genuinely wants to be helpful and knowledgable would understand the connotations of sentences like, "Where's the toilet?" The only people who would reply, "In the bathroom," instead of "Down the hall to the left," are smartasses and people who are trying to be deceitful (at worst) or merely unhelpful (at best).




Your claim that the Oracle knows that his answers are not the ones the questioners want can only be true if the Oracle knows all thoughts. However, the O serves a deity, not is one.

I know that. What I am saying is that it communication has connotations, and if you deliberately feign ignorance as to the connotations of a question then you are being dishonest. In my example, most reasonable English-speaking people who heard the question, "Where is the toilet?" would have realized that the connotation of the person's question was, "Which way do I have to go to find a functioning toilet in this particular floor of this particular building at this point in time?" and NOT "In which room is the toilet located?" To pretend otherwise is disingenuous at best.




Now, if you ask a grocery clerk "Do you have Prince Albert in a can?" and they say "Yes" and you respond "Well, you better let him out!", does that mean the clerk lied because they had a different interpretation of your question than you did?


I don't get it. In that case, the clerk does not understand the question and doesn't seem to be trying to be disengenuous. However, unless the Oracle is a total idiot or someone who has never spoken to another person in his life, he could have not misinterpreted the meaning of all those questions by accident.

[xyzchyx]

In one of the old Pink Panther films, there is a scene with Inspector Clouseau at a hotel... noting a dog near the front desk he asks the clerk "Does your dog bite?" to which the clerk responds "No." Clouseau bends down to pet the dog and the dog lunges at his hand, biting it ferociously. Clouseau stands upright and says to the clerk "I thought you said your dog does not bite", and the clerk tells him "That is not my dog."

What makes this scene so funny is that although undoubtably the clerk is being very deceptive, he is ironically saying nothing more than the literal truth. He is not even really twisting the truth in any sense.

Now I don't think the Oracle is an idiot, nor is it his _intent_ to be deceptive to Roy, particularly since he had threatened him the last time and is unlikely interested in a repeat performance... rather, he is forced to answer Roy's particular question as is. He tries to tell him that he should ask another question, but Roy will have none of it. Odds are that the magic limits his ability to answer only the questions asked (that is, he can say other things about the future, but only the answers to questions asked will be remembered after leaving the valley).

Twisting the truth means that the statement is _only_ true from a particular point of view, and is otherwise an actual and deliberate lie, such as saying that Elan was an only child, which is true only in the sense that Elan was raised most of his life as an only child, even though he actually had a twin brother.

[Alfryd]

...that doesn't change the fact that instead of making his own life easier or just not worrying about what happens to other people, he takes it upon himself to rescue, uplift, and otherwise aid complete strangers every day of his life--even when it negatively impacts his own happiness.
Which makes him very LG. I think what are you trying to argue is that the impact on his psychological well-being and overall life ambitions is as great a sacrifice as if his physical welfare were on the line. If this is how you care to define heroism, by all means do so.

...you know we've wandered off topic when we start comparing the heroism factor of Bill Gates and Angelina Jolie.
Praise Jolie!