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View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next Fighter Archetype: Dark Knight (Warlock Flavor) (PEACH)



Crisis21
2017-06-05, 11:29 PM
Something I made for a guy in my group who's been having a bit of trouble with adapting to 5e and doesn't seem to fully understand the build he's attempting to make with his character in 5e terms. Often sounds like he's trying to use a completely different system, so I decided to try and get his concept adapted into something easier to understand in 5e terms that he can still be happy with.

Please understand that I'm a bit new to 5e myself and I'd appreciate any help in getting this together for him.

The last two features were lifted straight from the Eldritch Knight Archetype (http://mcdt25e.wikidot.com/subclass:eldritch-knight) with just a name change and I'd appreciate suggestions for potential tweaks if anyone has them.



Dark Knight Fighter Archetype

Spellcasting

When you reach 3rd level, you augment your martial prowess with the ability to cast spells. See chapter 10 of the PHB for the general rules of spellcasting and chapter 11 for the warlock spell list.

Cantrips. You learn two cantrips of your choice from the warlock spell list. You learn an additional warlock cantrip of your choice at 10th level.

Spell Slots. The Dark Knight Spellcasting table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your spells as well as what level your spell slots are. To cast one of these spells, you must expend a slot of the spellís level or higher. You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a short rest.

For example, if you know the 1st-level spell hex and have a 1st-level and a 2nd-level spell slot available, you can cast hex using either slot.

Spells Known of 1st-Level and Higher. You know three 1st-level warlock spells of your choice, two of which you must choose from the necromancy, abjuration, and evocation spells on the warlock spell list.

The Spells Known column of the Dark Knight Spellcasting table shows when you learn more warlock spells of 1st level or higher. Each of these spells must be from the necromancy, abjuration, or evocation schools and must be of a level equal to or lower than your available spell slots. For instance, when you reach 7th level in this class, you can learn one new spell of 1st or 2nd level.

The warlock spells you learn at 8th, 14th, and 20th level can come from any school of magic.

Whenever you gain a level in this class, you can replace one of the warlock spells you know with another spell of your choice from the warlock spell list. The new spell must be of a level for which you have spell slots, and it must be a necromancy, abjuration, or evocation spell, unless youíre replacing the spell you gained at 8th, 14th, or 20th level.

Spellcasting Ability. Charisma is your spellcasting ability for your warlock spells. You use your Charisma whenever a spell refers to your spellcasting ability. In addition, you use your Charisma modifier when setting the saving throw DC for a warlock spell you cast and when making an attack roll with one.

Spell save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Charisma modifier
Spell attack modifier = your proficiency bonus + your Charisma modifier



Fighter Level
Cantrips
Known
Spells
Known
Spell Slots
Slot Level


3rd
2
3
1
1st


4th
2
4
2
1st


5th
2
4
2
1st


6th
2
4
2
1st


7th
2
5
2
2nd


8th
2
6
2
2nd


9th
2
6
2
2nd


10th
3
7
2
2nd


11th
3
8
2
2nd


12th
3
8
2
2nd


13th
3
9
2
3rd


14th
3
10
2
3rd


15th
3
10
2
3rd


16th
3
11
2
3rd


17th
3
11
2
3rd


18th
4
11
2
3rd


19th
4
12
2
4th


20th
4
13
2
4th




Life Drinker

At 3rd level, whenever you deal necrotic damage to a target, you heal your hp by half the amount of necrotic damage dealt. In addition, when you make a successful melee attack against a target, you may expend a spell slot to deal an additional 1d8 necrotic damage per level of the expended spell slot (maximum 4d8) plus your Charisma modifier.


Pact of the Blade

At 7th level, you gain the Warlock Pact Boon: Pact of the Blade. You can use your action to create a pact weapon in your empty hand. You can choose the form that this melee weapon takes each time you create it. You are proficient with it while you wield it. This weapon counts as magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks and damage.
Your pact weapon disappears if it is more than 5 feet away from you for 1 minute or more. It also disappears if you use this feature again, if you dismiss the weapon (no action required), or if you die.
You can transform one magic weapon into your pact weapon by performing a special ritual while you hold the weapon. You perform the ritual over the course of 1 hour, which can be done during a short rest. You can then dismiss the weapon, shunting it into an extradimensional space, and it appears whenever you create your pact weapon thereafter. You canít affect an artifact or a sentient weapon in this way. The weapon ceases being your pact weapon if you die, if you perform the 1-hour ritual on a different weapon, or if you use a 1-hour ritual to break your bond to it. The weapon appears at your feet if it is in the extradimensional space when the bond breaks.



Dark Invocations

At 10th level, you are able to learn two Warlock Invocations from the following list (you may trade one invocation for another whenever you gain a new level):

Agonizing Blast

Prerequisite: eldritch blast cantrip

When you cast eldritch blast, add your Charisma modifier to the damage it deals on a hit.

Armor of Shadows

You can cast mage armor on yourself at will, without expending a spell slot or material components.

Devil's Sight

You can see normally in darkness, both magical and nonmagical, to a distance of 120 feet.

Eldritch Sight

You can cast detect magic at will, without expending a spell slot.

Eyes of the Rune Keeper

You can read all writing.

Fiendish Vigor

You can cast false life on yourself at will as a 1st-level spell, without expending a spell slot or material components.

One with Shadows

When you are in an area of dim light or darkness, you can use your action to become invisible until you move or take an action or a reaction.

Sign of Ill Omen

You can cast bestow curse once using a warlock spell slot. You can't do so again until you finish a long rest.

Whispers of the Grave

You can cast speak with dead at will, without expending a spell slot.


Spell Surge

At 15th level, if you have no remaining spell slots, you may spend an Action Surge to gain 1 temporary spell slot. Any unused temporary spell slots are lost one minute after they are gained.


Eldritch Warrior

Eldritch Warrior: At 18th level, you learn how to channel your magic through your Pact Weapon. You may treat your Pact weapon as an arcane focus. You learn the Eldritch Blast cantrip (or another warlock cantrip if you already knew Eldritch Blast). While you wield your Pact Weapon in battle, whenever you use the Attack action, you may trade one of your extra attacks to fire one Eldritch Blast ray (1d10 force damage on a hit) at an opponent you can see within 60 feet, pushing them back 10 feet if you hit.

clash
2017-06-06, 01:04 PM
2 things that standout on a first look:
1) I would change some of the abilities that are basically a copy of the EK abilities and come up with something new(looking at Eldritch Charge and War Caster)
3) I would use the warlock 1/3 casting so this could be multiclassed with warlock ie

Level Slots Spell Level
3 1 1
4 2 1
7 2 2
13 2 3
19 2 4

Refreshes on short rest

Lalliman
2017-06-06, 01:30 PM
For when you want to be an edgy bastard, but bladelock isn't martial enough for you. I like it.

But yes, since it's clearly supposed to be warlock-based, I agree with Clash that the warlock's short-rest-based spellcasting would be more appropriate.

I don't mind taking features wholesale from eldritch knight, but it is a bit strange to get the equivalent of Improved War Magic without getting basic War Magic first.

Crisis21
2017-06-06, 06:54 PM
2 things that standout on a first look:
1) I would change some of the abilities that are basically a copy of the EK abilities and come up with something new(looking at Eldritch Charge and War Caster)
3) I would use the warlock 1/3 casting so this could be multiclassed with warlock ie

Level Slots Spell Level
3 1 1
4 2 1
7 2 2
13 2 3
19 2 4

Refreshes on short rest


For when you want to be an edgy bastard, but bladelock isn't martial enough for you. I like it.

But yes, since it's clearly supposed to be warlock-based, I agree with Clash that the warlock's short-rest-based spellcasting would be more appropriate.

I don't mind taking features wholesale from eldritch knight, but it is a bit strange to get the equivalent of Improved War Magic without getting basic War Magic first.

Good suggestions and I agree with the thing on war magic. I just kind of ran out of ideas when originally posting and hoped someone would spark the creative juices with their comments, which you've done. I've retooled the spell progression and the final two archetype features. Please review them below or in the OP.


Spell Surge

At 15th level, if you have no remaining spell slots, you may spend an Action Surge to gain 1 temporary spell slot. Any temporary spell slots gained this way are of one level lower than your primary spell slots (i.e. 2nd-level if you normally cast 3rd-level spells). If you have taken no other action, you may cast the temporary spell slot on the same turn you gain it. Any unused temporary spell slots are lost at the end of the encounter.


Eldritch Warrior

At 18th level, you learn how to channel your magic through your Pact Weapon. You may treat your Pact weapon as an arcane focus. You learn the Eldritch Blast cantrip (or another warlock cantrip if you already knew Eldritch Blast). While you wield your Pact Weapon in battle, you may cast Eldritch Blast through it when making your first melee attack each turn instead of making extra melee attacks.

clash
2017-06-06, 07:49 PM
For spellsurge I would just have it regenerate one of your expended spell slots. That shouldn't be broken considering you are giving up action surge v also the text about not taking an action and casting it right away isn't needed. Just say on your return you can expend an action surge use to gain a spell slot and don't give it an action cost

As for the Eldritch blast feature it might be too strong as it is essentially giving fighters 5 attacks if I am reading it right. 1 normal+1 attack. And fighters have enough asi to max out cha and str/Dex. So you might have to change that somehow. Maybe add a bonus action cost? Maybe just make it so you can interchange rays and attacks but still get only 4 total?

Crisis21
2017-06-06, 10:58 PM
For spellsurge I would just have it regenerate one of your expended spell slots. That shouldn't be broken considering you are giving up action surge v also the text about not taking an action and casting it right away isn't needed. Just say on your return you can expend an action surge use to gain a spell slot and don't give it an action cost

As for the Eldritch blast feature it might be too strong as it is essentially giving fighters 5 attacks if I am reading it right. 1 normal+1 attack. And fighters have enough asi to max out cha and str/Dex. So you might have to change that somehow. Maybe add a bonus action cost? Maybe just make it so you can interchange rays and attacks but still get only 4 total?

Eh... I kind of liked that flavor of using your action surge to get a spell right now, but not one you could just then save for later.

As for the other part, remember that the Eldritch Knight gets War Caster much earlier than this which lets them cast any cantrip (which is what Eldritch Blast is) and then make a melee attack as a bonus action. Which actually makes this explicitly weaker as written... Given that, I may actually need to buff it.

Hmm... How about this?


Spell Surge

At 15th level, if you have no remaining spell slots, you may spend an Action Surge to gain 1 temporary spell slot (optional? which counts as a spell slot one level lower than your primary spell slots /?). Any unused temporary spell slots are lost one minute after they are gained.


Eldritch Warrior

At 18th level, you learn how to channel your magic through your Pact Weapon. You may treat your Pact weapon as an arcane focus. You learn the Eldritch Blast cantrip (or another warlock cantrip if you already knew Eldritch Blast). While you wield your Pact Weapon in battle, and on a turn you have not yet taken a movement or bonus action, you may cast Eldritch Blast through it when making your first melee attack that turn instead of making extra melee attacks or using bonus actions. When you do, any creature struck by one or more of your Eldritch Blast beams is pushed back ten feet. You may do this even if you miss your melee attack.

clash
2017-06-07, 08:50 AM
The difference with regards to war caster is:
1st warcaster requires a bonus action. And second it will generally be weaker than a couple extra attacks because fighters have no built in way (without multiclassing which has it's own costs) to add modifier to dmg. This fighter does. That means that every turn this fighter could:

Make one attack with a greatsword and make 4 attacks with eldritch blast:
2d6 + 5 + (1d10 + 5) * 4 = 54 avg dmg every turn with no resource cost and push a person 40ft back with only one invocation

Compare to warcaster even using poison spray and assuming they are not immune and that they dont have high con saves
2d6 + 5 + 4d12 = 38 avg dmg and no rider

War caster was never intended to raise a fighters base dmg. It was intended for the fighter to output the same or less dmg after level 11 in exchange for more utility.

Further for a warlock to do the same it requires 2 invocations and they do not get the free weapon attack and eldritch blast is a warlocks main stick. The problem with this feature is it makes a fighter better at eldritch blast than a warlock and raises their consistent single target dmg higher than it already was and fighter's already had the highest consistent single target dmg out of any other class.

I like the subclass. You have done some good work and the features are coming along nicely but as written this one is simply overpowered.

Crisis21
2017-06-07, 09:57 AM
The difference with regards to war caster is:
1st warcaster requires a bonus action. And second it will generally be weaker than a couple extra attacks because fighters have no built in way (without multiclassing which has it's own costs) to add modifier to dmg. This fighter does. That means that every turn this fighter could:

Make one attack with a greatsword and make 4 attacks with eldritch blast:
2d6 + 5 + (1d10 + 5) * 4 = 54 avg dmg every turn with no resource cost and push a person 40ft back with only one invocation

Compare to warcaster even using poison spray and assuming they are not immune and that they dont have high con saves
2d6 + 5 + 4d12 = 38 avg dmg and no rider

War caster was never intended to raise a fighters base dmg. It was intended for the fighter to output the same or less dmg after level 11 in exchange for more utility.

Further for a warlock to do the same it requires 2 invocations and they do not get the free weapon attack and eldritch blast is a warlocks main stick. The problem with this feature is it makes a fighter better at eldritch blast than a warlock and raises their consistent single target dmg higher than it already was and fighter's already had the highest consistent single target dmg out of any other class.

I like the subclass. You have done some good work and the features are coming along nicely but as written this one is simply overpowered.

You make excellent points. Let me revise quickly...



Eldritch Warrior: At 18th level, you learn how to channel your magic through your Pact Weapon. You may treat your Pact weapon as an arcane focus. You learn the Eldritch Blast cantrip (or another warlock cantrip if you already knew Eldritch Blast). While you wield your Pact Weapon in battle, whenever you use the Attack action, you may trade one of your extra attacks to fire one Eldritch Blast ray (1d10 force damage) at an opponent you can see within 60 feet, pushing them back 10 feet if you hit.


So that should come to a single ranged attack with knockback in exchange for one of the fighter's extra attacks.


Thank you for your input by the way. :)


Edit: Although I'm curious how you feel this and the previous versions balance against Improved War Casting as that's what Eldritch Knight gets at the same level.

clash
2017-06-07, 11:23 AM
So going point for point comparison really requires looking at both archetypes as a whole. Both archetypes aside from spell-casting progression offer:

Ability to summon weapon:
EK gets weapon bond at lvl 3 to summon as bonus action but only predetermined weapon
DK gets ability to summon at level 7 as action but can summon any weapon

Ability to use cantrip and spell in the same turn:
EK gets one attack plus any cantrip at level 7 - More utility but decreased dmg and costs bonus action
DK replaces one attack with 1/4 cantrip at level 18- Doesnt lose damage but has reduced utility and no bonus action cost leaving it open for things like hex

Ability for action surge to affect spellcasting
EK gets free teleport(Misty step is 2nd level spell) for free when using action surge.
DK gets up to 3rd-4th level spell slot in exchange for action surge- seems about right

Ability to utilize spell slots and attacks in the same turn
EK has improved war magic - Cost bonus action and single target dmage but more utility and multitarget dmg
DK has Life drinker which is smite with healing - Raises single target dmg in echange for utility

At this point DK comes out ahead in a lot of ways for dmg and EK for utility but it is about even
EK gets arcane strike which increases the effectiveness of his spells giving him more dmg and control
DK gets invocations - 1 thus far was assumed to be agonizing blast so the other gives him utility. If he so chooses he can give up agonizing blast for more utility putting him closer to EK in terms of dmg and utility

So in summary I really think it is Lifedrinker that balances against improved war magic and Eldritch Warrior balances against war magic.

Crisis21
2017-06-07, 02:20 PM
So going point for point comparison really requires looking at both archetypes as a whole. Both archetypes aside from spell-casting progression offer:

Ability to summon weapon:
EK gets weapon bond at lvl 3 to summon as bonus action but only predetermined weapon
DK gets ability to summon at level 7 as action but can summon any weapon

Ability to use cantrip and spell in the same turn:
EK gets one attack plus any cantrip at level 7 - More utility but decreased dmg and costs bonus action
DK replaces one attack with 1/4 cantrip at level 18- Doesnt lose damage but has reduced utility and no bonus action cost leaving it open for things like hex

Ability for action surge to affect spellcasting
EK gets free teleport(Misty step is 2nd level spell) for free when using action surge.
DK gets up to 3rd-4th level spell slot in exchange for action surge- seems about right

Ability to utilize spell slots and attacks in the same turn
EK has improved war magic - Cost bonus action and single target dmage but more utility and multitarget dmg
DK has Life drinker which is smite with healing - Raises single target dmg in echange for utility

At this point DK comes out ahead in a lot of ways for dmg and EK for utility but it is about even
EK gets arcane strike which increases the effectiveness of his spells giving him more dmg and control
DK gets invocations - 1 thus far was assumed to be agonizing blast so the other gives him utility. If he so chooses he can give up agonizing blast for more utility putting him closer to EK in terms of dmg and utility

So in summary I really think it is Lifedrinker that balances against improved war magic and Eldritch Warrior balances against war magic.

Thank you for your input. I actually kind of enjoyed making this, and I do hope my friend accepts it in place of what he's been trying to do with his character (which has amounted trying to play a concept built for an entirely different system while completely ignoring 5e class mechanics and balance so far, and it's driving several people in the group a bit nuts including me and our DM). While I believe I've kept the thematics of what he's doing for the most part, this is going to be a rather significant nerf of his character.