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auric_gm
2017-06-27, 02:22 PM
I have a player who wants to play a Paladin from the Order of the Mystic Fire in my new 5e campaign. Not wanting to reinvent the wheel, I started with the SRD and the Forgotten Realms Wiki, then shamelessly cribbed some great ideas from the following threads


Rfkannen's Arcane Knight
Amechra' s Oath of the Weave
Gnomes2169's Oath of Discovery
Zeek0's Cleric - Ur Domain (in extended sig)


I also referenced another homebrew attempt to replicate this class concept in 5e:


Death by Mage: Oath of the Mystic Flame Defenders of Arcana
deathbymage.com/2016/04/26/oath-of-the-mystic-flame-defenders-of-arcana/

I then added some of my own mojo to come up with this:

Paladin - Oath of the Mystic Fire (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/ByWdnbyl4-)
(Note: you may need to disable ad blockers for this page in order to view it)

zeek0
2017-06-28, 03:16 AM
I'll just give scattered comments, and you can do with them as you will.

-Religion seems like it belongs on the skill list, since they serve Mystra. History also, since they search for artifacts. Probably Investigation too. In balance, you could remove Intimidation and/or Insight... but balance in possible skill choices isn't a big deal, since you still choose the same amount.

-I've only just now looked up the flavor for the Order. But it seems to me that they are still essentially paladins. It's for this reason that I think features like Lay On Hands and Aura of Protection are good to keep.

- I reccomend replacing Illusion with Evocation. Illusion is about lies and deception, which feels antithetical. Evocation gives you *fire* magic, which is probably thematic, and smites. When I'm back home, I'll look at the numbers that change between the spell lists.

-Don't scrap Aura of Protection in favor of Aura of Will - it's a solid downgrade. Protection already protects you somewhat from most charm effects. If you like, move Aura of Will to replace Aura of Mental Strength.

- In my brief research of this concept, I stumbled on Spellshatter, the idea that this knight can strike someone and dispel magics. It reminds me of my Ur Priest attempt, which had 'Repudiate Blessings and Curses', which dispelled magics and did damage to a creature when it happened. Perhaps an adaptation of this would be more thematic than Aided Exploration? (see my homebrew in my signature)

- I'd feel okay about scrapping the spell list entirely, since you get access to wizard spells. Perhaps Legend Lore could make its way to replace Purity of Spirit?

- You're right, Purity of Spirit and Holy Nimbus don't really fit. Holy nimbus is fine, except the undead/fiend bit. I'm not sure what would work best in its place, however.

auric_gm
2017-06-28, 11:24 AM
I'll just give scattered comments, and you can do with them as you will.

Thanks so much for your feed back. Ya give good feedback & get good feeback. Works for me!

In any event, I updated my homebrew with the suggestions you made. Much of it I adopted and modified the original post, though I kept the spell lists. I also came up with substitutions for the one channel divinity feature (Spellshatter), Purity of Spirit and Holy Nimbus but I'm not sure about them. My new questions/thoughts are updated in the original post.

Thanks again!

zeek0
2017-06-29, 01:45 PM
Hrm. Now we have to consider the spell lists.

The theme is paladin(+wizard), but now the wizard list definitely overshadows the paladin's.

First, I would allow all paladin spells. There's only a few non-abjuration/divination/evocation spells, and they're thematic. After, we need to limit the wizard spells somehow. Here's my thought: You may not prepare a number of wizard spells greater than half your prepared paladin spells.

Second, Spellshatter could dispel all spells from the target equal to half your paladin level, rounded down. This keeps you just behind the curve of caster progression, and defines the ability more. Also, it makes it so you can't just hit the 7th level spell until you get a good roll. I think that otherwise it's fine - a mage without buffs/curses is still powerful enough, but this offers some temporary counterpoint.

Last, Scion of the Mystic Flames (cool name). I don't like it because it's entirely an anti-mage feature. If you're fighting any number of non-magical enemies, it's useless. I think that, instead, I'd like to see one of those bullets devoted to anti-magic, and the others focused on something else (perhaps More Fire).

Good work!

auric_gm
2017-06-30, 02:10 PM
OK, version 3 up and posted, now as a spiffy new link to the homebrewery (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/) (which is awesomeness on a stick, btw)

Thoughts about the Current Revision:


Closer Adherence to Stock PHB Paladin. I balked a bit at my last revision when I looked at some rather non-paladin things I incorporated in the class definition. For example:

I went back to using Charisma vs Intelligence for the casting stat. My homebrew would be the only one that I know of that changed this stat. Not the end of the world, but it's a consistency thing. I could be persuaded to switch it back. I'm not 100% on this.
I removed the expanded spell lists and spell book, etc. I figured I could go with the flavor of this by simply choosing an oath spell list that includes a number of wizard spells that are thematically appropriate and definitely not available to the paladin spell list (as several of the previous spell selections were). The paladin still behaves like other paladins, but has an extra spell list that gives him more of a wizard flavor. I'm particularly partial to Phantom Steed (SO works for a pally) and Fire Shield (thematically appropriate fire, stays at melee range, and has kind of a smite ye who dare to engage in fisticuffs with me vibe)

Spellshatter. I took your previous suggestion about having spellshatter be limited by level of spells it could disrupt and realized that the Dispel Magic description already had something here to that effect. From the Dispel Magic description:

At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 4th level or higher, you automatically end the effects of a spell on the target if the spell's level is equal to or less than the level of the spell slot you used.
So I took that idea, figured that a paladin has spell slots granted to him each level, and came up with this:

The dispel magic effect will automatically end the effects of a spell on the target if the spell's level is equal to or less than the highest level spell slot available to the Paladin.
It's consistent with the spell-version of Dispel Magic, limited because paladin spell slots don't advance very quickly and max out at level 5, yet still allow the pally to boon and buff strip lower level spells to his heart's content. It also has the benefit of scaling with level, allowing the pally to dispel higher level spells as he gains higher level spell slots.
Purity of Thought. This needed a redo to make it more interesting. It's much more situational now, but so are many of the other level 15 oath features. In this case it has higher consistency with the class concept.
The more I looked at Scion of the Mystic Flames, the more I didn't like it. Specifically, it felt too much like trying to shoehorn 3.5e mechanics into a 5e character. So I started from scratch to create my own top-tier power: Vessel of the Weave. It's not exclusively anti-magic, but the resistance to magic damage stands out as does the penalty for casting spells targeting him (the higher the spell slot used to cast it, the worse he can punish you). I'm not sure about the scaling for the firey-smite part of this power. I think it looks good, but I may have to simulate this a few times to get a feel for whether the charges build up too quickly or too slowly (I'm thinking too quickly if anything).


As always, I'd love to hear your feedback. Thanks guys!

auric_gm
2017-07-03, 11:01 PM
Version 4 is now up. Changes are highlighted below:

- Toned down Vessel of the Weave to be more in line with PHB Paladin top-tier features
- Replaced Purity of Thought (it made zero sense the way it was written) with Empowered Resistance for L15 subclass feature.
- Replaced Read the Weave by amechra with Eldritch Defense

auric_gm
2017-07-06, 07:42 AM
Version 5 is up. Changes are highlighted below:

- Minor page formatting, style, and grammar corrections
- Modified oath description and tenets to better represent storyline/theme
- Modified 3rd level spell list, removing Phantom Steed and adding Haste
- Made Eldritch Defense more powerful, causing disadvantage to all attacks against the Paladin, as it was too weak in its previous writing.
- Removed Spellshatter and replaced with Turn Commanded Creatures to be consistent with pattern of one class-specific feature + one turning feature for Paladin subclasses
- Ramped up damage for Vessel of the Weave, as it was over-corrected in the previous version
- Replaced Empowered Resistance with Improved Eldritch Defense

I'd love some feedback particularly on the Channel Divinity features (both have been completely rewritten/replaced) and the latest incarnation of the L20 top-tier feature, Vessel of the Weave.

Thanks!

auric_gm
2017-07-13, 10:50 AM
Version 6 is up (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/ByWdnbyl4-). I'm thinking this might be refined enough to use in game at this point. Changes are listed below:

- Changed casting stat from Charisma back to Intelligence, as there are no game balance issues with this and it fits the thematics of the subclass better
- Replaced disadvantage for opponents with add intelligence modifier to AC to reduce overall power of Eldritch Defense
- Added slight clarifications to Improved Eldritch Defense to better accommodate changes made to base Eldritch Defense

Feedback, as always, is both welcome and encouraged.

zeek0
2017-07-13, 01:35 PM
Hello again! I'll offer some feedback.

First, I really like it. It's interesting and useful.

I have a problem with improved eldritch defense. I think it's an awful lot, to give ~+3 AC to your nearby allies - I can't think of a spell that comes close.

Vessel of the Weave is very nice. It has use with or without spells, which is cool. One way to re-phrase it is that whenever you sustain magical damage you gain those points. Then the phrase 'spell-like ability', which has no explicit meaning, can be abandoned.

My one fear is that weave points won't accumulate fast enough, especially in non-magic combat. Perhaps the number for non-magical damage could be increased to 2?

The flavor is spooky and cool. I'm into that.

Let me know if I make sense. This really is good work.