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Freelance Henchman
2007-08-06, 07:05 AM
I never played D&D with a group, only the computer games. Since I play NWN2 on persistent worlds a lot now, and really enjoy the cleric class for its combination of melee power and spellcasting (which is quite frankly a bit *too* strong compared to a Fighter or any other pure fighting class, but easy to play for beginners), I was wondering how to roleplay one more or less correctly.

I have some trouble seeing how a cleric, who channels the power of his god, should behave, for example in contrast to someone who is merely very, very devout but isn't granted spellcasting powers etc. Are all clerics necessarily absolutely fanatic in their belief? Is there any place for doubt, in themselves and especially the righteousness of their god? Could a good cleric dare to request some of the more aggressive/borderline evil spells, or is it healing and protection only? (This is only relevant because NWN2 gives Create Undead and Inflict Wounds spells to *any* cleric)

How do you usually play a cleric? Not in the mechanical buffing-station-and-walking-bandaid or spell artillery sense, but in the social interaction sense? Durkon seems like a good role model (no pun intended) for a good cleric, which is what I usually play, but he doesn't seem *that* different from any other upstanding ramrod-straight dwarf fighter (well, he's quite different from Khelgar Ironfist, but the honor-and-duty stuff is always there), except he talks about Thor occasionally.

Xuincherguixe
2007-08-06, 07:08 AM
Are inflict spells actually evil?

I know evil clerics can spontaneously use them, but evil clerics can cast healing spells. (Just not spontaneously)

Freelance Henchman
2007-08-06, 07:12 AM
Are inflict spells actually evil?

I know evil clerics can spontaneously use them, but evil clerics can cast healing spells. (Just not spontaneously)

I dont know really, but it doesnt seem likely that the goddess of the grain harvest would grant her clerics a bunch of killing spells. They might come in handy, sure, but is that how a cleric is supposed to think?

Ranis
2007-08-06, 07:20 AM
Side note: I really wish my cleric would ask himself these questions.

Brother_Franklin
2007-08-06, 07:26 AM
Try to keep in mind the polytheistic basis of the religion. You should not be offended by devotion to other gods (unless they are enemy gods). You probably shouldn't even be all that interested in converting people. Under the polytheisitic schema, it would be like convincing someone to like the ice cream you like.

What I think really sets clerics apart is study and service.
Study in that you know about another realm, it's agents, it's symbols. You understand the material plane as the realm of competing divine plans. Kings might rule, and wizards make their plots- but whenever anything happens their is a god behind it somewhere.
Service means many things. You server people who seek divine connection, even more if they seek your specific deity. You likely bless newborns, saintify food, accept confessions, blah blah. You serve the will of your god- and how they wish the world to be. You likely serve a church with specific manifesations of your gods plan.

Your a cleric with your hands in the material, but you eyes fixed on the divine.

Freelance Henchman
2007-08-06, 07:29 AM
Side note: I really wish my cleric would ask himself these questions.

You mean like "Isn't it rather dangerous to cast Implosion or Storm of Vengeance in a crowded city? Am I really *sure* those spells can't hurt innocent bystanders? Why does the Goddess Of Love even grant stuff like that!?" :smallsmile:

nerulean
2007-08-06, 07:33 AM
I think the important thing with a cleric is not to lose sight that the character has faith in a god. It doesn't have to be unconditional, unwavering faith, but it's something that's there as a powerful force in the person's life whether he's going through a tough patch or everything's currently shiny. It might even be interesting to play a mechanical difference if his faith starts to falter, perhaps losing a spell slot of each level, or even being unable to receive spells one particular day.

Essentially, you can play a cleric however you like. Take any personality you can think of, and add in that sense of faith, and there is a cleric. Heck, it'd even be possible to play a cleric who essentially thinks of his deity as largely a spell vending machine, though watch out for DM smiting if you try this.

Attilargh
2007-08-06, 07:34 AM
I see a cleric having a relationship with his god not unlike the one between a trusted servant and his lord. The cleric is still human (or elf, or dwarf, or...), not some converterbot that has no own thoughts. Religions have many tales of important people questioning their gods, so feel free to portray any doubts you want. (Just be prepared for the consequences! :smallwink: "Do not meddle in the affairs of gods, for they are far from subtle and quick to anger.")


I dont know really, but it doesnt seem likely that the goddess of the grain harvest would grant her clerics a bunch of killing spells. They might come in handy, sure, but is that how a cleric is supposed to think?
How about "O Lady of the Harvest, grant me the power to oppose these fiends who seek to despoil thy holy temple", or the more direct "OhpleasegodIdontwannadie"?

bosssmiley
2007-08-06, 07:37 AM
Side note: I really wish my cleric would ask himself these questions.

+1. :smallamused:

At the risk of stepping into the verboten realm of RL religion I'll suggest that if you want to avoid the 'templar' and 'tubthumper' cleric cliches, you might want to try playing the cleric as a copy of the sort of quietly devout, deeply religious person you sometimes get IRL. If you're lucky you'll know the kind: they have a profoundly personal relationship with their god that influences all their dealings with others for the better, but doesn't feel the need to ram it down the throats of others. Classic lead-by-example, makes-you-think-there-might-be-something-to-it-after-all faithful.

Works especially well for down-to-earth clerics of St Cuthbert, Elhonna and the like. :smallcool:

Dervag
2007-08-06, 07:38 AM
To address the original post:

You're looking for a way to roleplay an extremely religious person, one who knows that they are directly touched by the power of their god.

Know any 'born again' Christians? The kind who literally can not perform most normal day-to-day activities without being influenced by their religious beliefs?

Like that.

Note that this does not mean that the person has to be overbearing, self-righteous, or stupid. That isn't true of born-again Christians even if it is of their stereotype, and it won't be true of D&D clerics any more than D&D paladins have to be Lawful Stupid smite-first-ask-questions-later morons.

But a cleric's actions should be permeated by their religion. It's up to you to figure out roughly what the tenets of that religion are; just remember to apply them very thoroughly.



Are inflict spells actually evil?

I know evil clerics can spontaneously use them, but evil clerics can cast healing spells. (Just not spontaneously)An evil cleric can cast healing spells; most evil deities would grant their followers healing spells.

So I'd be surprised if most good deities would refuse to grant their followers inflict spells. The flavor of the spell might change (more smite-y and less rip-out-your-life-force-y). And of course there would probably be exceptions- the harvest goddess is unlikely to grant inflicts just as the god of death is unlikely to grant cures.

Freelance Henchman
2007-08-06, 07:40 AM
Try to keep in mind the polytheistic basis of the religion. You should not be offended by devotion to other gods (unless they are enemy gods). You probably shouldn't even be all that interested in converting people. Under the polytheisitic schema, it would be like convincing someone to like the ice cream you like.

What I think really sets clerics apart is study and service.
Study in that you know about another realm, it's agents, it's symbols. You understand the material plane as the realm of competing divine plans. Kings might rule, and wizards make their plots- but whenever anything happens their is a god behind it somewhere.
Service means many things. You server people who seek divine connection, even more if they seek your specific deity. You likely bless newborns, saintify food, accept confessions, blah blah. You serve the will of your god- and how they wish the world to be. You likely serve a church with specific manifesations of your gods plan.

Your a cleric with your hands in the material, but you eyes fixed on the divine.

Thank you for this well-written reply, this is really helpful.

You also bring up an important point concerning the "other" type of people with un/supernatural powers: Wizards (and Sorcerers and Warlocks). How would a cleric relate to a wizard of lesser, quasi-equal or superior power? Are these all meddlers in things they do not understand, power-hungry fools on the edge of eternal damnation, or silly tinkerers with more power than is good for them (i.e. gnomes)? Are they mere craftsmen, who work with raw magic instead of wood or metal? Considering how powerful wizards can get, are they to be loathed as pretenders to godhood?

Attilargh
2007-08-06, 07:57 AM
In D&D, magic really has very few consequences. Sure, you might accidentally shift yourself inside a mountain or something, but that's just poor planning. Persecuting them would be a bit like persecuting rocket scientists, in my opinion. Furthermore, in some campaign settings - Forgotten Realms, for example - arcane magic is controlled by deities That kinda makes wizardly types "meddlers in things they do not understand", but also pretty dang hard to subject to religious bullying. ("Yours is a stupid god!" "Is not!" "Is too!")

But if you want to play it like that, no-one's going to bust your door in, confiscate your dice and put you in jail for Doing It Wrong.

Freelance Henchman
2007-08-06, 08:02 AM
How about "O Lady of the Harvest, grant me the power to oppose these fiends who seek to despoil thy holy temple", or the more direct "OhpleasegodIdontwannadie"?

Its really hard to see the line where things are getting way out of hand in the "might come in handy" department.

"Filthy rodents! Claim your reward now for eating the sacred grain!"
*squeaky noises*
<casts Flame Strike>
*entire grain silo explodes*

In the absence of a DM, I'm usually tempted to prepare only non-healing spells including the more aggressive ones, since I can spontaneously convert them anyway to healing if needed. Given that particular power, why bother to learn "real" healing spells if you can simply convert that Searing Light to Cure Whatever Wounds. By that reasoning, any evil cleric might as well prepare a bunch of heals, and convert them to inflicts when necessary. It just seems so *utilitarian*.


Know any 'born again' Christians? The kind who literally can not perform most normal day-to-day activities without being influenced by their religious beliefs?

Not Christians, but something similar. Although what those guys would do if they actually had god-given powers is beyond my reckoning (and quite frightening, frankly).


Note that this does not mean that the person has to be overbearing, self-righteous, or stupid. That isn't true of born-again Christians even if it is of their stereotype, and it won't be true of D&D clerics any more than D&D paladins have to be Lawful Stupid smite-first-ask-questions-later morons.

"YOU WILL HAVE TEA AND CRUMPETS WITH THE VICAR OR YOU DIE!!! TEA AND CAKE OR DEATH!!!" /Eddie Izzard

If you *know* you have a connection with a god, and it is very obvious that you do, you will have some trouble keeping quiet when something not in accord with that god's tenets happens. Wouldnt you be almost forced to act a certain way, since your immortal soul, which is the only thing that ultimately counts (and you know this for a fact), is otherwise in danger? You would have to be nearly-fearless and shrug off any hardship, since its only the body that has to endure this. Granted, you should stay alive to worship another day, but luxury of any kind would be totally out of the question, right?

AslanCross
2007-08-06, 09:25 AM
Try to find the intersection where your character's personality and your deity's dogma meet. Deities do not designate personalities for their followers, although your character's personality may be a reason for her to follow that particular deity.

Keep in mind differing deities have different attitudes, even though they might be gods of the same thing in different worlds. Kelemvor, for example, is just as much a god of death as Nerull is--but their dogmas are very different. Nerull just wants everything to die, while Kelemvor teaches that death should be embraced as part of life. As such, a cleric of Nerull might be very obsessed with death, but a cleric of Kelemvor might not even talk about it a lot--he just might be very somber, subdued and unenthusiastic about the pleasures of life.

A cleric of the Grain Goddess need not be gushing and preachy, but she will always choose actions that might ultimately support life. She might also be nurturing and rather motherly (which might necessitate a tougher side sometimes). Still, it really depends on your character. IMO, clerics and paladins are among the harder characters to RP if you want someone atypical of the class---it certainly is possible, but it will require a lot of thought. There always has to be an intersection with the deity's dogma. After all, it is the deity's dogma, not the character's.

Freelance Henchman
2007-08-06, 09:46 AM
Deities do not designate personalities for their followers, although your character's personality may be a reason for her to follow that particular deity.

Can you just decide to become a spellcasting cleric in e.g. Faerun? Or are you chosen by the priesthood or by some miraculous omen as a child or whatever.

Ulzgoroth
2007-08-06, 10:03 AM
Frequently, a cleric can get away with going through the motions (and being very sure never to do something offensive to their god) but otherwise not being too obsessed with things. In Ebberron, this is almost the norm. In other settings it may vary, even on a god-by-god basis, but deities need hands in the material world. If they squeeze their chief agents too hard, they'll find it difficult to get any more...there's always other gods out there. So it sort of makes sense that clerics need to be loyal, but not necessarily obsessive.

A cleric for whom religion is the most important thing in their life is interesting to play, certainly (I've got such a character), but more laid back types are entirely reasonable. If you start doing things that you think you'd have a very hard time explaining if your god were to show up and ask questions, you're probably out of bounds. Unless you're in Ebberon, where gods never audit.


In the absence of a DM, I'm usually tempted to prepare only non-healing spells including the more aggressive ones, since I can spontaneously convert them anyway to healing if needed. Given that particular power, why bother to learn "real" healing spells if you can simply convert that Searing Light to Cure Whatever Wounds. By that reasoning, any evil cleric might as well prepare a bunch of heals, and convert them to inflicts when necessary. It just seems so *utilitarian*.
Spontaneous healing exists exactly so that good clerics don't need to prepare healing spells (except for Heal, Restoration, and status-effect removals) all the time. They still need to think about holding back spells from combat expenditure to use for healing, but they can at least have a useful variety of spells on hand.

Essentially, it is a utility. Good clerics never prepare Cure Light Wounds (except possibly as a domain spell) as such because every first level spell they have is Cure Light Wounds when they need it to be. If you look at it as preparing all your spells as dual use [spell effect]-or-healing (or -harming) spells, it may seem a more in-flavor.

If you *know* you have a connection with a god, and it is very obvious that you do, you will have some trouble keeping quiet when something not in accord with that god's tenets happens. Wouldnt you be almost forced to act a certain way, since your immortal soul, which is the only thing that ultimately counts (and you know this for a fact), is otherwise in danger? You would have to be nearly-fearless and shrug off any hardship, since its only the body that has to endure this. Granted, you should stay alive to worship another day, but luxury of any kind would be totally out of the question, right?
You know you have a connection to a god, and that that connection is real...but it's not just you. The next guy over, who isn't a cleric at all and swears by Boccob mostly because there's a god who doesn't make too many demands? He knows that you have a real connection to whatever god it is you follow, and that that god is real. All the gods are real, and it isn't particularly a big deal. In standard settings, belief in gods and the afterlife isn't subject to question. Peasants, wizards, and kings are all perfectly well aware of the major gods, and at least the basics of the afterlife. Being a little closer to the lore doesn't mean you ought to freak out about it.

Your soul, which incidentally doesn't normally remain coherent forever, isn't (normally) in any great danger on account of your commitment or lack thereof to your god, and as a cleric you've got the Knowledge (religion) to know it. Your behavior in general, at least in extreme cases, can make a difference, but fanaticism for the sake of the afterlife, amusingly, is more the domain of evil clerics than good ones. Good people end up in places that are fine even if your god doesn't know you from a lump of gravel. If you're going to spend your afterlife in the Abyss, though, you want to have someone looking out for you. Not that you're likely to, but it's your best chance.

There are two very distinct sets of things "not in accord with that god's tenets". There are things not done quite the way the god would prefer, and then there are things abhorrent to the god. The first you can shrug off. You don't have to, but gods, again, aren't alone. They generally can handle a good compromise. On the other hand, clerics of Pelor don't just ignore innocents being butchered in front of them and such. Something in direct opposition to your patron's principles is something you can't abide...hopefully for personal reasons, but failing that because the god in question is likely to wonder what exactly you're doing for them if you don't intervene.

Even then you don't have to be stupid about it. Good clerics may often be, both because they tend to have less regard for their own lives than evil and because traditionally their side dominates society, so they can get away with it. Evil clerics, you'll note, are constantly permitting things abhorrent to their masters to pass unchallenged...generally, while they build up some plot to make 'right' all such offenses.

Telonius
2007-08-06, 10:21 AM
I'd take a more character-centric approach to this question. Basically, there's no "correct" way to play "a cleric." There is a good way to play your cleric.

I had the good fortune to know quite a lot of nuns when I was a child (my mom worked for the convent, and my knuckles survived quite well thank you). There are a great many motivations for choosing a more mundane sort of religious life, and a great variety of personalities that make the choice. I would imagine the same would hold for the magical version in a D&D world. Ask yourself why the character you're creating chose to worship the deity they worship. What drew them to it, why did they want to be a holy warrior when they grew up?

For example, in an upcoming Eberron campaign I'll be playing a Gnome cloistered cleric/artificer named Charles Glocklesprocket.


Charlie was always very interested in gnomish philosophy, particularly applied philosophy. He had a natural talent for it, and saw in the church of the Sovereign Host the possibility to expand his research in ways that other avenues couldn't. He developed a great respect for the gods' ability to create and manipulate life (ex healing spells), but he had some odd ideas of his own. Particularly, since gnomish philosophy (I assume) would deal with things like reality and illusion, something like the Warforged - essentially an "artifical" life - would fascinate him. Being a Gnome, he just couldn't help himself from trying to tinker his way into some mildly self-aware creations. However, when his "automatic wastepaper composter" was left on and running next to the library one evening, the Abbot decided that it would be best for him to continue his research independently.

That character background (I hope) believably explains his motivations to becoming a cleric, and gives a bit of a guide as to his personality and how he'd act and react to certain things. You might be able to figure out, generally, how he would pray or preach. I imagine that he would be much more comfortable with one-on-one counseling rather than public sermons - a better confessor than preacher.

warmachine
2007-08-06, 12:00 PM
You have to be something of a philosopher. Being fanatical is something more akin to monotheist cultures, which rarely applies to AD&D. A cleric may think his god has the best philosophy but he's unlikely to think things can't be learnt from other gods. Indeed, in Complete Champion, there is an elite military unit that is primarily populated by the Church of Pelor but welcomed by the Church of Hieroneous. Their symbol combines the holy symbols of Pelor and Hieroneous. Thus, except for savage species, the Cleric considers his church and a god source of wisdom but doesn't always dismiss other ideas.

Read the fluff about the god. I play a Cleric and a Paladin of Hieroneous, so, in my case, Honour, courage and compassion, including mercy for the enemy. A cleric is devoted to the people first, then Hieroneous second, then the church third. It's a humanist philosophy (which is why I can stand to play it). Conservative and militant humanist but humanist nonetheless. Thus, for my Cleric and Paladin of Hieroneous:-

Demand a surrender where possible.
Feed and protect prisoners; don't beat them; take their stuff as spoils of war but give them enough to survive when you release them.
Help those in trouble, even at your own risk.
Don't charge for healing as this is mercenary but ration spells for the good of all, not just the complainer.
Don't lie or steal.
Advise, negotiate or snarl to keep team discipline.


As for arcane magic, it's just another tool. Wizards and sorcerers are judged by what they do, not by their use of 'science'.

DiscipleofBob
2007-08-06, 12:16 PM
Are all paladins fanatic crusaders who hold inquisitions and burin people at the stake for blasphemy and witchcraft? Hardly. Fanatics exist, but they're the minority. (Sometimes the minority in charge, mind you, but still the minority).

Pick a deity, or an ideal, or something close enough to a deity that you can get domain spells from it. Try to hold to the deity's ideals. Is your god warlike and forceful, telling you to convert followers left and right? Or does your god tell you to be kind and protect others?

Voice of the Wampinator: No Real World Religions

JadedDM
2007-08-06, 12:46 PM
I think largely, how a cleric would act, would depend on the setting he existed in and the deity he worshiped.

captain_decadence
2007-08-06, 12:57 PM
The key to playing a good cleric is to find the reason that they have devoted themselves to the god and also to remember that they are a person, not an avatar of their god.

Everybody has a reason for picking their profession (or class, whatever) and the cleric should be no exception. It could be anything from being devoutly religious, extremely curious, abandoned at a temple, raised by priests (clerics, paladins, whatever). Even priests, rabbis, preachers and other religious figures in the real world have a reason why they have chosen this profession.

Clerics should feel free to doubt and question, especially if they are put into situations where the rules and ideas of their god don't seem to work. Unlike in our world, they probably won't doubt the existence of their god (that flamestrike was just a coincidence, really. The gods don't exist) but rather they will doubt whether they should continue to follow their god.

Telonius
2007-08-06, 01:37 PM
Though even in D&D worlds, there are Ur-priests. If I'm remembering right, I think their thing is that the gods are just super-powerful beings, not creators in and of themselves, and that they aren't worthy of being worshipped. But most people look at them weird (best case), beat them up and steal their shoes (worse case), or force them to listen to Celine Dion albums (worst case).

BardicDuelist
2007-08-06, 01:48 PM
I think how you roleplay largely depends on your god. Loki's clerics would probably be rather rogue like and try to manipulate events for their own amusement. Boccob's would tend to enjoy the company of wizards, while Ares's might distrust it, or even see it as inferior.

Even there, it is hard to make generlizations. A cleric of Loki could also be on a crusade to free prisoners (since his god is imprisoned), or to begin Ragnarok. A cleric of Boccob could see a rivalry between those who learn spells on their own instead of gaining them from their true master. Even Ares's clerics could value the prowess and tatics afforded by wizards on a battlefield.

Devils_Advocate
2007-08-06, 03:39 PM
If you *know* you have a connection with a god, and it is very obvious that you do, you will have some trouble keeping quiet when something not in accord with that god's tenets happens. Wouldnt you be almost forced to act a certain way, since your immortal soul, which is the only thing that ultimately counts (and you know this for a fact), is otherwise in danger? You would have to be nearly-fearless and shrug off any hardship, since its only the body that has to endure this. Granted, you should stay alive to worship another day, but luxury of any kind would be totally out of the question, right?
That's actually an excellent example of something that very much depends on the cleric's religion. A cleric of Ilmater will likely shun worldly pleasures as distractions from his duties, sure. But that's because he's a follower of Ilmater and self-sacrifice for the benefit of others is Ilmater's whole friggin' deal, not because he's a cleric. A cleric of Sharess, on the other hand, is pretty much required to have fun. She's bloody well supposed to act like a proper follower of Sharess, and most certainly is not supposed to act more like a follower of Ilmater because she's one Sharess's clerics. That wouldn't make any sense, now, would it?

True, all clerics get access to the same array of curative, buff, debuff, and save-or-die spells, and heavy armor proficiency, and a special affinity for positive or negative energy, with domains only slighty differentiating them. But that's just because... well, because the class wasn't all that well thought out, frankly. Having your cleric of Olidammara act like a cleric of Pelor or Heironeous just exacerbates the problem. The game mechanics don't make him good at healing, melee combat, and dealing with undead because his god wants him to do those things; his god wants him to sneak around, steal stuff, and woo beautiful women. The game mechanics make him good at things that his god may not especially want him to do because the game mechanics aren't well-designed to support things that fall too far outside of certain standard archetypes, not even when those things are conceptually a part of the standard game world.

I wouldn't expect a cleric to feel forced to follow his deity's dogma at all. If I describe myself as "forced" to do something, I probably mean that I'd really rather not do it, but circumstances pretty much demand that I do. I would see a typical cleric as someone who really wants to follow his god's tenets. If he didn't strongly believe in the behavior that his god promotes, he wouldn't have become a cleric of that god in the first place!

NamelessArchon
2007-08-06, 04:06 PM
I was wondering how to roleplay one more or less correctly.The short answer? WWTD? (What would Thor do?) Make your character actually strive to behave like his god's example indicates.

Clerics of Cyric should seek to foster intrigues and secrets, Clerics of Bane should seek to increase their control over all things, and secondarily the control of their church over all things. Priestesses of Loviatar should remind people that agony is only a nerve ending away, and that only their loyalty and devotion can possibly save them from the suffering they will have in Her unholy name.

Priests of Lathander should spend a lot of time seeking out wrongs and making them right for the good of all, punishing the wicked, etc. Clerics of Ilmater should seek always to lessen the suffering of others - even at personal cost to themselves, and particularly if the suffering is unjust! Clerics of Eliastree should be fighting to show surface-worlders that not all Drow are evil and to be burnt alive on sight, while fighting to free other Drow from the belief that might makes right and Llolth is supreme.


Are all clerics necessarily absolutely fanatic in their belief?Devout and fanatic are not the same thing. Devout is the belief that your god is at work in the world (for good or ill) and should be afforded some respect. Fanaticism is excessive enthusiasm, unreasoning zeal, or wild and extravagant notions on the subject.

It's kinda the difference between:
Thor is great!
-and-
All others are mere pretenders to the glory that is Thor!


Is there any place for doubt, in themselves and especially the righteousness of their god?Of course! Doubt is a powerful roleplay opportunity if not overused. After all, look at the prequel to the game you're playing, which centered heavily around the notion of doubt in the righteousness of a god by a paladin!


Could a good cleric dare to request some of the more aggressive/borderline evil spells, or is it healing and protection only? (This is only relevant because NWN2 gives Create Undead and Inflict Wounds spells to *any* cleric)Of course it's fine. Does the cleric use them to smite the enemy or to solve every problem? Channelling negative energy often, regularly, and as your first and final solution is probably not an ideal way to play a Good cleric... but there are evil ones...


but in the social interaction sense?
When you see something that clearly corresponds to your god's portfolio, you should be reminding people that such minor miracles are the province of Thor! I'm not saying you have to go out of your way to do it, nor that you should do it in every case. But if you save the day, it wouldn't hurt to spend a little time in reflection of how your god helped to make it happen.

Sit down with your DM and discuss non-combat services your cleric might perform. Blessings, marriages, sanctifications. Service at foreign temples while on the road between adventures. Record keeping, planting, cleaning, leading prayer services, ministering to the poor (or wealthy, or nobility, or oozes, or animals, or Things From the Far Realms), harvesting, burials and funerary rites, things of that nature. Social interaction is in how you interact. So, figure out how your church and followers of your god would "fit in" to the societies of Faerun and start there. The more you flesh this out, the more tools your DM would have. (In a persistant online world, you get to do this alone, most times.)


except he talks about Thor occasionally.This is another reason why Durkon is devout, but probably not a fanatic. Fanatics. Don't. Stop. Talking. About. It.


Can you just decide to become a spellcasting cleric in e.g. Faerun? Or are you chosen by the priesthood or by some miraculous omen as a child or whatever.That varies somewhat. Most churches accept those that want to become clerics (most common). You study, you learn. You act as a lay brother, you work for the good of your church and its beliefs, and eventually you earn ordination. It's usually not much different from churches in other settings, really.

Others don't have a "church" to speak of, such as those of minor chaotic evil divinities (Gargaros, Ghanadul, etc.) and clerics are sometimes self taught leaders of cults, perhaps gifted with divine vision of the rites, or perhaps they have come across forgotten lore and instructions and learned to use them to commune with the god, or perhaps they were simply taught by a travelling cleric or the leader of a small group. Religions vary greatly in Faerun.

Do note that in Faerun, paying only lip servce to gods is a good way to end up branded as one of the Faithless in the afterlife. Switching sides regularly is a good way to end up as one of the False in the same way. Faith in Faerun is a VERY real and VERY living-breathing thing. (The gods walked the earth as avatars only a short while previous!)


In the absence of a DM, I'm usually tempted to prepare only non-healing spells including the more aggressive ones, since I can spontaneously convert them anyway to healing if needed.Which is smart...


Given that particular power, why bother to learn "real" healing spells if you can simply convert that Searing Light to Cure Whatever Wounds.Mostly you don't "learn" spells as a cleric. The god -GRANTS- you the ability to call on ITS power.


By that reasoning, any evil cleric might as well prepare a bunch of heals, and convert them to inflicts when necessary. It just seems so *utilitarian*.My evil clerics often do what your good cleric does. It's called strategic thinking, and not putting all your eggs in one basket. It's a holdover (mechanically) from earlier editions, where clerics were often regarded as healbots, who should be healing and little else.

NephandiMan
2007-08-06, 04:53 PM
One important point to keep in mind is that D&D's outlook on the gods is Homeric in at least two ways. First and more obviously, there are many gods and goddesses. Second, the line dividing mortals from gods is often tenuous (especially at epic level), and not infrequently all but vanishes. Furthermore, there are a multitude of degrees between a plain vanilla commoner and a major deity: clerics, half-celestials, archons, solars, etc. One corollary to this point is that even the gods can (and do) die. Another is that there's a very good chance the gods were once adventurers like you.

Finally, a psychological point concerning fanaticism: people have a hard time being fanatical about beliefs that are well-founded, but they adhere vehemently to questionable or even ludicrous beliefs with appalling frequency. In D&D, since the gods are typically quite manifest, fanatical clerics would be as bizarre as an organization dedicated to convincing people that the sky is blue.

Freelance Henchman
2007-08-06, 05:24 PM
Thank you all for your posts. This will help a lot. I may take a moment to digest all this. If anyone else has more tips, I will keep reading this thread.

mostlyharmful
2007-08-06, 06:14 PM
Cleric so far has been very western focused, many of the religions of the world we live in don't have any of the social regulation aspects to them, shamanism, confucianism and Bhuddism are all good examples of religions focussed on the individual relationship to the devine. The underlying theory is that your relationship to the gods does not depend on the actions of others, and they can deal with their own ****. This means an adventuring cleric can focus on the over-all result of the campaign not what people who your PC isn't responsible for do. They can ask if the overall effect of staying and going with the group is beneficial, the long term view can encompass far more than the short term 'you must not do that or my god and i will smite you' one.

Brother_Franklin
2007-08-07, 07:51 AM
You also bring up an important point concerning the "other" type of people with un/supernatural powers: Wizards (and Sorcerers and Warlocks). How would a cleric relate to a wizard of lesser, quasi-equal or superior power? Are these all meddlers in things they do not understand, power-hungry fools on the edge of eternal damnation, or silly tinkerers with more power than is good for them (i.e. gnomes)? Are they mere craftsmen, who work with raw magic instead of wood or metal? Considering how powerful wizards can get, are they to be loathed as pretenders to godhood?

Well, I suppose their are pious wizards and impious wizards. But even arcane magic comes under the domains of the gods. Certianly you could have a cleric with an anti-arcane attitude (especially perhapse a nature cleric), but I think that would be more the execption than the rule.

As far as pretenders to godhood- the differance between a 20th level charater and a god is only 40 levels and a few divine ranks. I like to play in games were accension to godhood is possible. Of course many gods, especially lesser one will want to prevent this. But its going to come down to divine politics agian.

This is all just my views tho.

Freelance Henchman
2007-08-07, 08:09 AM
Well, I suppose their are pious wizards and impious wizards. But even arcane magic comes under the domains of the gods. Certianly you could have a cleric with an anti-arcane attitude (especially perhapse a nature cleric), but I think that would be more the execption than the rule.

As far as pretenders to godhood- the differance between a 20th level charater and a god is only 40 levels and a few divine ranks. I like to play in games were accension to godhood is possible. Of course many gods, especially lesser one will want to prevent this. But its going to come down to divine politics agian.


As has been said before in the thread, especially in Faerun (Time of Troubles) the gods seem to be rather more like very powerful humans (or in fact, ex-humans) who I think will not inspire much actual fanatiscism because they are so accessible and there is something almost everyday about them. I suppose this allows a cleric to be comparatively relaxed in their attitude. I'm rather glad to see that the fanatic/crusader/holy warrior type is not the only viable way to play a cleric, since this is far away from my actual personality and not at all very interesting or pleasurable to play for me. I'd rather play a more quiet, possibly rather doubtful but not broody type.

Peregrine
2007-08-07, 10:24 AM
In the interests of staying within board rules, I'm not going to go into specific details of my religious beliefs. But I will say that I'm a religious person who at least tries to be the sort of positively devout type that one or two people have described in this thread. And I think I can provide some useful comments on roleplaying some of the situations being raised here.

In particular, people are questioning how much doubt a person who can cast freakin' divine magic could conceivably have. Let me tell you, it's really quite remarkable how difficult it can be for us mere human beings (...and dwarves, elves, halflings...) to hold onto faith. There's more than just 'does God exist?' There's 'does God really care?' and 'is my particular understanding of God correct?' and 'what on earth does God want me to do now?' and those sorts of things. Even someone who can cast divine spells would face these questions.

As an example, there's a person mentioned in a certain well-known religious text... ah, you know what? I'm going to go out on a limb and mention some details. (I think I'm still well inside the rules, because I'm not really inviting discussion of religion -- I'm just pointing to examples that might help people roleplay clerics. If you don't believe, take it as a literary example -- no controversy required.)

So anyway, there's this guy named Elijah in the Bible. And he's kind of cleric material -- he can call up some pretty showy miracles on a regular basis. On this particular occasion, he's gone head to head against a bunch of priests of a hostile religion in a display of divine power. They didn't get so much as a spark, while Elijah got fire falling from the sky.

And then he hears that the queen is after his head for this (since she's in support of the other guys' religion), and he runs. All the faith and miracle-working power in the world, and he runs for his life. It's partly losing his nerve, and partly stress and frustration from fighting people's apathy and refusal to believe for so long.

So yeah, clerics can have their doubts too. Think of it this way: religion isn't just about believing in the existence of divinity, it's about believing in its relevance to you, and trusting when things don't seem to be going how you think they should. It's a battle for mindshare and devotion, not acknowledgements of fact. And in D&D at least, the other side has gods too.

Aurion
2007-08-07, 02:04 PM
If you have a couple extra bucks, I suggest picking up complete divine first of all. And then secondly, I'd say it really depends on the cleric's god and the situation. In my current campaign, I'm a dwarven cleric who worships Moradin, like most dwarves. However, I'm in a world that my god had no sphere of influence until I came to it. So what I'm trying to do is bring glory for my god by uniting forces under his banner against drow (who follow Loth) because Loth is Moradin's antithesis. Essentially as a cleric, what you do is in the name of your god, be it good or bad. In CD, there is a description of how clerics of each god pray and usually what kind of values they favor, so I'd definitely recommend grabbing it. Most importantly, don't do anything to disgrace your god!

Raolin_Fenix
2007-08-07, 03:39 PM
I dunno if anyone's posted this (haven't read everything), so sorry if they have. :P

What you need to remember is that clerics are people, too. They're no higher or lower than everyone else. Each has his (or her, or its) own little quirks and foibles. They're all capable of making mistakes and (mis)interpreting their gods' divine will. They're even capable of outright malice, though for a Good cleric to use his spells for evil purposes would lose him his spells in the future.

Clerics are just people. They center their lives around a given philosophy and moral code, and that philosophy/code should bear consideration in most of their everyday decisions. But that doesn't mean everything has to be about their god. They're individuals, not walking extensions of their deity's will (unless the particular character chooses to see himself so, which is just a character quirk for a religious zealot, bigot, and overall jerk).

You can be religious and devoted to your deity, pray every day, make sacrifices (not necessarily living ones, in the case of Good deities!) in their name, and follow their Dogma. And you can do it all without being a zealot. It is possible.

Paladins would do well to remember this, too. :P

Freelance Henchman
2007-08-07, 03:58 PM
In particular, people are questioning how much doubt a person who can cast freakin' divine magic could conceivably have. Let me tell you, it's really quite remarkable how difficult it can be for us mere human beings (...and dwarves, elves, halflings...) to hold onto faith. There's more than just 'does God exist?' There's 'does God really care?' and 'is my particular understanding of God correct?' and 'what on earth does God want me to do now?' and those sorts of things. Even someone who can cast divine spells would face these questions.

"Why is the world as it is?" is another one that you could find yourself asking even if you are granted strange powers by some mysterious entity.