How Good is Incarnum?

[Dragonmuncher]

So I just finished reading most of Magic of Incarnum (currently in the middle of the Monsters section). And, well, I can't decide how I feel about it.

On the one hand, it's a cool concept. On the other hand, it doesn't look that effective.

It seems like Incarnum, for the most part, serves to either boost your melee abilities or grant bonuses on skill checks. Sure, you might get a breath weapon once per minute, and I think there might be a couple of "Eldritch Blast" style Incarnum abilities (although to make them at all effective, you'd pretty much have to put as much essentia as possible into it, drawing power away from your other abilities). Yet the Incarnate, the "best" Incarnum class, has a half BAB.

The Totemist looks pretty good, actually. A Fighter that can add a bunch of abilities on. Some optimization would be needed, I think, to make it effective, but it looks pretty neat.

Most of the PrCs look kind of lame, although the anti-magic one (Witchsomething Binder?) looks like it would be a pretty effective mage killer. Totem Rager could be cool, too. The incarnum/divine class and the incarnum/arcane class suffer from the same problems a Mystic Theruge would, as far as I can tell.



So, am I off base? This was just a first impression, so I'm open to suggestions.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

My thoughts are pretty close to yours. I still don't know how well I like it. The Totemist is about the only class I cared for, and none of them look particulaly useful or interesting.

I'm pretty much completely neutral on the book. It... just doesn't stand out for bad or good in any way.

[Fax Celestis]

It's certainly interesting and very well balanced. MoI, put into the hands of someone who knows what they're doing, can be as powerful as ToB. In the hands of someone who does not know what they're doing, however, the MoI classes can be as weak as a Fighter.

[RiOrius]

I got a chance to play a level 2 Incarnate, and he was quite effective. You can get a Lesser Soulspark familiar (CR 3 familiar at level 2), and your early access to +1 (or +2 in my case--got a feat to increase essentia capacity) weapon can easily offset the poor BAB, at least at low levels.

That said, the campaign fell apart pretty much immediately, so I never got a chance to see how he'd do at mid or high levels, although I suspect not particularly well. While the concept seemed fun, it seems like at high levels you would just get more of the soulmelds, rather than more powerful soulmelds. Maybe I should try making a level fifteen Incarnate just to see how he shapes up...

[ArmorArmadillo]

I only really like the totemist from MoI, but I really liked the totemist from MoI.

I think it's a really good system, and I really wished WotC did more with it.

[Dhavaer]

I really liked the Skarn. Other than that... yeah, I was pretty 'meh' about it, too.

[Overlord]

Well, I thought that while complicated, the system itself was pretty neat.

I wasn't that big of a fan of the Incarnate, but then again most people weren't. I really like the Totemist, but, again, so did most people.

Unlike most people (I think) I thought the Soulborn was a pretty cool alternative paladin-type class, which could be all of the same alignments as the alternative paladins from Unearthed Arcana as well.

[ImperiousLeader]

Soulborns aren't talked about greatly, but I know they can be made into impressive damage dealers. They can get a lot more smites than a paladin.

[FireSpark]

Totemists, despite their avg. BAB progression, can actually be built into frightening front-liners. In a campaign I was running a few months ago, a friend palyed catfolk totemist. At first, due to low number of melds and essentia points, he stuck to the mid-line, with some ranged attacks (like crossbows and a breath weapon from a meld). By 12th level, he was the four-armed, damage dealin' tank of the group. The melds alone that are available to a totemist are some of the best there are for combat purposes.

As for the other Incarnum classes, they excel at diverse applicability, especially the Incarnate, once they gain the ability to reshape melds on the fly. And while Incarnates never become front line combatants, they do make a good stand along side the party's cleric, rogue, or other mid-liners (even with the poor BAB which can easily be compensated for with a slew of melds).

[bingo_bob]

The classes are balanced. Not against anything in particular, just balanced. The incarnate is a bit on the weak side, the soulborn is pretty spot-on for balance, and the totemist is slightly on the strong side. Well, that's my interpretation at least.


The main problem with MoI, though, is that it has not recieved support in any other books whatsoever. What's in MoI is all that there is, which can really restrict your options. If it had slow, gradual support, say like what Warlocks get (or Binders, though they don't get quite enough, IMHO), it would do quite well. As it stands, there's nothing in other books to get you interested in incarnum. The only book with any incarnum content is MoI, and if you've got that, you've already shown that you're interested in it. There's nothing outside of the book to entice you to buy it.

But yeah. MoI is a pretty good book.

[Dragor]

I did find the system a bit complicated. I wanted to change my character into a Soulborn (one of the party was a Totemist who wanted to help unwrap my Knight's potential- I basically said that my character was actually a Soulborn, decreed by her master to look out for the young prodigy).

So, yeah. If all the party was Incarnum-based, it would open a lot of doors for us. Sadly, it's got a bit of a Marmite style opinion in our group, so that may never happen (considering one player is a 'Bash down the door, kill the evil dudes and get the loot player).

I agree that it should get more content. It has much potential- alas, WotC have just let it be.

[Xefas]

The only book with any incarnum content is MoI...

I believe that there are a few (maybe 5) soulmelds in Dragon Magic. I know it isn't much, but it's some!

As for my opinion on Incarnum...I found it rather interesting, but not terribly so. I probably wouldn't play one in a party given all the other options out there in the wide world of D&D.

[Akennedy]

Well, this may be a little off topic - but here it goes anyway...

What is the optimized incarnum build anyway?

[Fax Celestis]

Well, there's the Pauper of Smack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41214), if you'll forgive me tooting my own horn.

[Dausuul]

The concept is good, I wasn't fond of the execution. Partly this is because I hate classes that depend heavily on alignment; I feel that alignment should follow your character's personality, but a class with alignment restrictions means your personality is limited by your alignment. And partly it's because the class mechanics are bizarre and I have a very hard time judging what incarnum-users are capable of and what role they ought to fill.

[JackMage666]

Personally, I love Incarnum. It's a magic system on par with Tome of Battle class, and far better than the Tome of Magic classes. While not as good as the Wizard or Sorcerer, they're much more equal with the "lower" classes, while still having enough unique abilities to be unique.
Also, in high magic campaigns, they make great melee combatants. Even the Incarnate can be used to full effectiveness, despite his low BAB. Remember, most damage dealing soulmelds are touch attacks, and thus ignore alot of AC.
I'll admit, though, that they seem to be a bit more for support than actual play. Rather, they seem to be strong in Multiclass builds, augmenting already strong classes if they're willing to give a little. If you look through the soulmelds, there are several soulmelds that boost things a regular Incarnate can't quite do - One that boosts illusion DCs, and another that boosts spell damage. Even things like Lightning Gauntlets can be transmitted through melee weapons, which is more often used in melee builds than the standard incarnum builds.
Anyway, that's by defense case.

[Everyman]

Incarnum is a very customizable system. Since your abilities are often based on what melds you have shaped for the day, your role in a party can be pretty flexible. Unfortunately, Incarnum suffers from not having a truly unique role to fill in a game. Often, it is just copying some other traits that other classes have.

It also is very dependant on use. You can not simply dip into incarnum mechanics and have it sync with your campaign. Rather, you need to introduce it as a real force in your world.

Overall, here are my ratings...

If the system is a main mechanic in a campaign and being supported: 7.5/10
If the system is only being dipped into and not fully supported: 5/10

[ALOR]

well i must say this thread has again intrested me in trying to go over my MoI book again. I didn't like it the 1st time i read it and pretty much just cast it away but i'll give it another shot.

[tahu88810]

I just got it today, and I'm already thinking up hundreds of plots involving The Lost to toss at my IRL group.
I can see it now to...so much slaughter... *twitch*


I personally like Incarnum...alot! I can't wait to join an evil PbP game and make a Necrocarnate! And then a Witchborn Binder (in a good campaign)...and then an Umbral Disciple (in either)...

I really like it...

[Kyeudo]

My impressions of MoI is that the Soulborn is a new, less annoying, paladin, the Incarnate is a new form of skill monkey, and the Totemist is a frontliner that can replace the broken Druid.

The MoI hybrids, like Soulcaster and Saphire Hierarch are actual pretty good. For the cost of 2 caster levels you can suplement your spellcasting with Incarnum goodies.

I realy love the Necrocarnate. First, its a necromancer style class that is actualy evil, not "evil because it uses negative energy," which I always considered a cop out. Second, it is amazingly powerful and good at what it does. Third, it oozes flavor. Necrocarnates are all about power and will do anything to get it, even torture the very souls of others to extract more power.

[Xan]

We have a Totemist in our party, and holy crap can he smack people around. I don't really understand how it all works because I've never read the book, but from what I gathered he's using about three soulmelds at once, two of which give him extra arms and one that lets him make a full attack on a charge. The effect is that he has six claws and can attack with all of them at once. For those who have read the book, is this possible, or is he misreading something?

[ArmorArmadillo]

I think with Landshark Boots, Girallion Arms, and Sphinx Claws and the Double Chakra (Totem) feat than yes. Also, if he gets another bind he can use the Remhoraz Belt to add xd4 damage to all his attacks.

MoI is best compared to M:tG
You have a bunch of cards in play (your Soulmelds) which give you small effects
And you can have your lands (your Essentia pool)
And each turn you can tap your lands and use the many (invest Essentia) to buff up your permanents (increase the effect of your Soulmelds.)

The virtue of Soulmelds is the ability to combine them in interesting ways; and aside from the most popular "Million attacks" combos, there are a lot of fun and interesting ones.

Example: There is a Purple Worm Belt (Don't have the name on me) which gives you Awesome Blow. Combine that with the Girallion Arms to get four natural attacks, and then corner someone against a wall and play handball with them.

[Fax Celestis]

We have a Totemist in our party, and holy crap can he smack people around. I don't really understand how it all works because I've never read the book, but from what I gathered he's using about three soulmelds at once, two of which give him extra arms and one that lets him make a full attack on a charge. The effect is that he has six claws and can attack with all of them at once. For those who have read the book, is this possible, or is he misreading something?

It might be. It depends on whether or not he's (a) using magic items in the slots of the soulmelds (such as a pair of gloves when he's got Girallon Arms bound); or (b) if he's binding the same soulmeld more than once. Both of those are illegal.

However, the full-attack-at-end-of-charge-with-natural-weapons? Very excellent, very legal. I happen to like spending my 3rd level feat on Open Least Chakra (Arms) and my 6th level feat on Shape Soulmeld (Sphinx Claws) as a monk, since it means I can flurry at the end of a charge.