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Yora
2017-07-05, 02:44 PM
I just got Dungeon World and am currently replaying Knights of the Old Republic, and of course this means that I absolutely have to start working on a new campaign. :smalltongue:

I played KotOR and read all the Tales of the Jedi and Knights of the Old Republic comics, but I have not played either KotOR2 or TOR. I am not too worried about smartass players who know the setting even better than I do, but I would still like to have the world of the campaign mostly match with the official history.
That being said, I am not actually much of a fan of Uliq Qel-Droma, Exar Kun, and Revan and I also don't want to delve into all the new content introduced by TOR.

Update: While researching on the period between KotOR2 and TOR I got this really cool idea that I now want to follow instead of my original plan to set the campaig 200 years after KotOR2: Instead I'll go with an alternative reality like in the Infinity comics and set the game 30 years after the Dark Side Ending of KotOR. :smallbiggrin:

Here is a brief overview of the timeline;

5000 BBY (1098 years ago) - Great Hyperspace War: The Sith Empire discovers the Galactic Republic and tries to invade corruscant but is defeated and almost entirely wiped out, but the Dark Lord Naga Sadow escapes with his followers to Yavin 4.
3996 BBY (94 years ago) - Great Sith War: The Dark Jedi Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma declare themselves the new Dark Lords of the Sith and attempt to conquer the Galactic Republic with the help of the Mandalorians.
3976 BBY (74 years ago) - Mandalorian Wars: While the Sith had been defeated, many of the Mandalorians had survived and dispersed throughout the galaxy. Mandalore the Ultimate united them again as the Neo-Crusaders and started another war against the Galactic Republic, causing Revan to gather an army of Jedi against the will of the Jedi council.
3958 BBY (56 years ago) - Jedi Civil War: Revan and Malak declare themselves Dark Lords of the Sith and create a second Sith Empire. Revan is defeated by the Jedi but Malak escapes.
3955 BBY (53 years ago) - The Dark Wars: Darth Malak returns with the Starforge fleet to attack the Galactic Repubic. Revan kills him in the Battle of the Starforge and then turns on the Republic Fleet, completely destroying it and killing Admiral Dodona and Master Tokare*. Shortly after the disappearance of the Republic Fleet in the Unknown Regions a Sith force attacks the Jedi Enclave on Dantooine, wiping out most of the Jedi in the Outer Rim.
3952 BBY (50 years ago): Revan is slain in the Battle of Chandrilla and the remains of his fleet flee to the Outer Rim. The Republic Fleet are in no shape to pursue and both sides decide to focus all their resources on strengthening the defensesof their worlds, for the time being.
3902 BBY: Sith Desciples send by the new Dark Lord start poking around on Dantooine.
*Only Vandar Tokare and Admiral Dodona discovered how they were betrayed and both died moments later. The identity of Revans apprentice is a mystery. :smallwink:

Going by both movies and videogames, hyperspace travel is ridiculously fast to the point that distance doesn't have any relevance, but this is over 3000 years earlier when everything was a bit more primitive and all the Sith and Mandalorian stuff actually takes place in one pretty confined region of the galaxy map. (Though I think in reality the now existing map was made so that these worlds are all close to each other.) And many other planets I find cool and interesting are also in about the general area, so I decided to have the campaign set in the Outer and Mid Rim of the Northeast quadrant. The planets I want to prepare myself for are the following:


Alpheridies: A cold and dark planet orbiting a dim red dwarf on the border between the Expanse and the Mid Rim. It is home to the Miraluka.
Arkania: A cold planet on the border between the Colonies and the Inner Rim that is the home of the Arkanians. While not particularly hospitable, the Arkanians are very technologically and economically advanced and known as producers of high tech and medical goods.
Cathar: Homeworld of the Cathar in the Outer Rim. It's cities were mostly destroyed by the Mandalorians, which was one of the causes that got many Jedi to join the war on the side of the Republic against the will of the council on Dantooine.
Dantooine: A very remote farming world on the very edge of the galaxy inhabited mostly by humans. Was home of a Jedi academy at the beginning of the Dark Wars.
Dathomir: A gloomy and swampy planet in the Outer Rim that has a population of Zabrak led by the Witches of Dathomir and is also home to the Nightsisters.
Felucia: A totally funky planet on which the dominant form of life is fungi, including a primitive race of fungoid humanoids. (Relevant really only during the Clone Wars but it's in the region and looks awesome.)
Iridonia: A harsh desert planet in the Mid Rim that is the homeworld of the Zabrak who live in underground cities inside huge canyons. (I'm more a fan of Ryloth, but that's at the other side of the galaxy. Iridonia sounds also like a cool desert world.)
Ithor: A jungle world in the Mid Rim that is the homeworld of the Ithorians. (I like jungle worlds and for some inexplicable also Ithorians. Like seemingly a lot of other people too.)
Kashyyyk/Trandosha: A forest planet and desert planet in the Mid Rim, which are the homeworlds of the Wookies and Trandoshans.
Korriban: The original homeworld of the Sith and the site of the Valley of the Sith, located far out in the Outer Rim.
Mandalore: A wild world in the Outer Rim that is the cultural center of the Mandalorians. Because of their decentralized and often nomadic culture it is only sparsely inhabited.
Onderon/Dxun: A double jungle planet on the outer edge of the Inner Rim. Onderon is populated by humans who all live around the great fortress city Iziz while Dxun is home to countless huge beasts that come flying over to Onderon when the two planets get particularly close. Onderon was the base of the Dark Jedi Freedon Nadd whose spirit turned both Uliq Qel-Droma and Exar Kun to the Dark Side.
Ord Mantell: A mountainous world that is pretty much the main hub for space trade in the northern Mid and Outer Rim.
Ossus: Site of the Jedi Academy in the region before Exar Kun blew up its star to loot its archives between the evacuation and its destruction. The burned out husk of the planet and the ruins of the academy still exist in the eternal darkness of space.
Telos: A remote planet on the edge of the Outer Rim that was almost completely annihilated by the Sith during the Dark Wars. The environment is slowly but steadily recovering through the work of Ithorian scientists but the main site of interest in the system is the massive Citadel Station which is a major space port for the region.
Yavin 4: A jungle world deep in the Outer Rim that was home to a Sith colony established by the Dark Lord Naga Sadow after the Sith were destroyed at the end of the Great Hyperspace war over a thousand years ago. It was briefly reclaimed by Exar Kun who declared himself the new Dark Lord of the Sith but wiped out the whole Massassi population to make himself imortal. The Massassi Temples should still hold all kinds of interesting stuff to discover.
Ziost: A mountainous world in the Outer Rim that served as the capital world of the Sith Empire during the Great Hyperspace War. It was abandoned after the Sith lost thr war and the remaining survivors fled to Yavin 4.


This already determines a couple of species that should have a major presence in the campaign: Arkanians, Cathar, Humans, Ithorians, Miraluka, Trandoshans, Wookies, Zabrak. In theory pretty much any species from the galaxy could show up, but can you think of any that played prominent roles in the galaxy during the Old Republic era or that would seem iconic to this version of the setting? Any other worlds in that part of the galaxy that would be worth preparing some content for?

Other than that, I'd also love to hear any other ideas and suggestions where to go with this idea.

scalyfreak
2017-07-05, 10:20 PM
Manaan - An ocean planet located in the galaxy's Inner Rim. The homeworld of the Selkath, a species historically devoted to the care of their native oceans.

GungHo
2017-07-06, 10:39 AM
The "-ooine" suffix is Huttese, so I'd expect some of their related enterprises/races on those worlds (even the farm world of Dantooine). So, Rodians, Twileks and the other hangers-on of the Hutts may be around, even if Huttspace is a ways away. "Ord" reflects military outposts and likely reflect some strategic purpose (and application of Republic law).

Every single planet on that map (http://editorial.designtaxi.com/news-starwars0702/big.jpg?utm_source=DesignTAXI&utm_medium=DesignTAXI&utm_term=DesignTAXI&utm_content=DesignTAXI&utm_campaign=DesignTAXI) will have a related Wookieepedia entry (like Bandomeer), so you can hunt around for things that sound cool.

You can also create a world of your own that isn't monobiome if you'd like. Perish the thought!

Yora
2017-07-06, 11:40 AM
Good idea. Wookieepedia makes looking them all up really easy. I actually did find a couple more interesting planets in the region:

Ch'hondos: The main shipyard of the old Sith Empire. With the loss of the Star Forge the Sith need a new way to rebuild their fleet and salvaged the 1000 years old factories.
Toprawa: There is actually no real information about the planet except that it's mostly forest. But it's a somewhat well known name and it sits right in a perfect spot as a gateway to Sith Space. I think I'll make it into a heavily defended fortress world and also a space sport for smugglers illegally trading with the Sith Empire.
Ord Radama: A swamp world with some massive cities and home to a race of little bird men. Used to be a major militaty base of the Mandalorian War and was part of the new Sith Empire. Having a big city and weapons factory in one place makes it perfect as the Sith capital.
Ruuria: A jungle planet in Sith Space with many factories and universities. And home to a race of giant intelligent centipedes.
Saleucami: A mountainous desert world that is constantly getting hit by meteorites but has some actually very pleasant regions inside of giant meteor craters that are home to major spaceports of the region. It's a Pantoran colony with large populations of Twi'lek and Weequays (two species I really like but have their homeworlds somewhere completely else). It also lies neatly in an otherwise pretty empty area on my map between Kashyyyk and Ossus. A weird world I had never heard of before, but it fits really well for my purposes.


http://spriggans-den.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Galaxy-Map-3902-BBY.png

It makes a pretty good looking map and a total of 24 worlds. I think that should plenty enough to prepare some basic notes on and give the players a lot of room to play around in. And since space is really, really big, I can still always add more worlds at any time.
I really like that there's this remote path to a back entrance to Korriban from Kashyyyk that avoids all the major population centers of Sith Space.

I also just spotted that it creates a pretty interesting border region: Cathar hate the Mandalorians but should feel somewhat positive about Revan for coming to their aid when they were almost wiped out. At the same time the Mandalorians served the previous Dark Lord of the Sith very well and Canderous became a close aly of Revan. Even though they aren't on good terms with each other, I think both would feel more positive about the Sith than the Republic. And then there's Dathomir which has their own Force Users, including dark ones, that don't like either the Jedi or the Sith. And these three worlds sit right in the center of the map. Funny how these things happen, but I sense a lot of great potential from this basically random arrangement.

Adding worlds populated by Twi'lek, Weequays, Pantorans, Devlikk, and Ruurians also nicely rounds out the rooster of major species. And I completely forgott about the Taung living on Mandalore.

Misereor
2017-07-07, 03:40 AM
Update: While researching on the period between KotOR2 and TOR I got this really cool idea that I now want to follow instead of my original plan to set the campaig 200 years after KotOR2: Instead I'll go with an alternative reality like in the Infinity comics and set the game 30 years after the Dark Side Ending of KotOR. :smallbiggrin:


I set a campaign in the same period before SWToR came out, but I set it as a prequel to KoToR, during the start of the Mandalorian invasion.
The campaign started on Telos, which was a dumping ground for Jedi rejects at the time. (They would use their limited force powers to help the local agriculture. Of course my players resented this and found a way to escape.)
None of my players had touched the computer games, so I could use many of the KoToR villains as NPC's, and use the players' adventures to unwttingly help bring about the Jedi civil war.
It was good, especially when two of them played the games some time after our campaign ended. :belkar:

Anyway.
KoToR2 takes place 20 years after the first game, so 10 years before your campaign starts.
It is designed to take place under the radar, and very few members of the public know about the events that take place during it.
However, it does say some interesting things about the state of the Galaxy after Revan takes off for parts unknown. I would recommend playing it for inspiration and background knowledge.
The Dark Horse comics can be recommended too.

The reason SWToR takes place 200 years later is that the universe they wanted for their MMO didn't relly mesh all that well with KoToR1-2.
I would keep it out of a proper Old Republic campaign, as it seems you're already doing.

Yora
2017-07-07, 06:41 AM
It's actually only five years later. The whole events of KotOR cover actually a very short period of time. The Starforge was discovered in 3959, KotOR was in 3956, and KotOR2 in 3951.

I'm not really happy with the direction KotOR2 takes after the ending of KotOR. Revan and Bastila just going on a trip and disappearing is a rather disapointing continuation of the Dark Side ending. It needs more mayhem and betrayal. :smallamused: I also like to have a lot of Jedi in the galaxy, as in KotOR and the comics. At the end of the Sith Triumvirate you basically have the galaxy in the same state as at the end of the X-Wing books, which I think removes the very elements that makes the Old Republic era it's own special thing different from the Rebellion and New Republic era.
Of course I could just go with only ignoring TOR and setting the campaign 200 years after KotOR2, but I like the idea of the Empress being one of Revan's apprentices too much, as well as being more of a Darth Leia than Lady Palpatine.

For the other Sith Lords, I got three quick ideas late yesterday evening and I like them more and more the longer I think about them:


http://spriggans-den.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Sith-Lords.jpg
Darth Celoth, Darth Vraik, Darth Kybar

The Empress is the only remaining apprentice of Darth Revan who took over control of the Sith Empire after having destroyed all the other Sith masters that competed for power after Revan was killed in the Battle of Chandrilla. All the current Sith masters were once her apprentices.
Darth Celoth grew up in a ruined city on Cathar and hates the Republic and the Jedi for having failed to save her world from the Mandalorians, but greatly admires Revan for having sworn to avenge the Cathar and destroy the Mandalorians.
Darth Vraik is a giant broat shouldered Duros who has mastered lightsaber combat and Force Lightning and the power to cause panic. Not that he needs much help in that regard when he strides into battle.
Darth Kybar was a Mandalorian Taung who was shot down in the battle for the Mandalorian headquarters on Dxun. Severely injured he was attacked by the great beasts that rule the planet and torn to shreds, but managed to drag himself to the Tomb of Freedon Nadd, which had been left unguarded since the Mandalorians had conquered Dxun. Even though the spirit of the Dark Lord had been annihilated years earlier, the strong presence of the Dark Side enabled him to sustain himself purely by hate until the Empress somehow found him decades later. Even though he had not shown any ability to use the Force before, lying in the Tomb for such a long time in pain and darkness gave him very powerful in the Dark Side. After decades of training his power is second only to the Empress, but he is unable to use Force Lightning without destroying his new mechancial body. Obviously, Darth Celoth is not particularly fond of him.

I admit, a giant lightsaber master and a semi-undead cyborg are not particularly original concepts for Star Wars. But then, Star Wars as a whole is based entirely on repeating themes and popular archetypes, so I think that actually improves them rather than weakens.
(Their names are obviously Darth Ocelot, Darth Wraith, and Darth Cyborg. :smallwink:)

I got a question about Telos and Citadel Station. Does is still make any sense in my timeline? Telos was destroyed by Malak without permission from Revan but Citadel Station was build by the Republic after Malak was defeated. Would it still be plausible that the Sith would invest their not unlimited resources on restoring the planet now that another apprentice of Revan has taken over? And would it make sense that it's run by Ithorians? They don't seem like the kind of people who would work for the Sith. But then, they could be from a colony conquered by the Sith and made to work as high skill slaves. Thoughts on that? Am I getting any facts wrong?

Corsair14
2017-07-07, 08:22 AM
If you go on d6 Holocron, there is an entire official sourcebook on Knights of the Old Republic and another book which may be helpful on the Dark Side which has a bunch of Old Republic information and history in it. I wasn't a fan of the Old Republic enough to really delve into it.

The warpspeed in the movies thing annoys me to no end. It takes days to get from one place to another, from Coruscant to Tattoine it takes 22 days 14 hours using a standard military grade hyperdrive. Double that for a civilian model hyperdrive. Half that for the Falcon and its .5 hyperdrive engine.

Yora
2017-07-07, 09:47 AM
In the movie it seems to take 20 minutes from Tatooine to Alderaan. And it stays pretty consistent with about the same time from Coruscant to Mustafar. Both trips from the Core to the Outer Rim.

Corsair14
2017-07-07, 12:10 PM
Alderan to Tattoine is normally 7 hours but is 3.5 by the Falcon with its souped up engines. The jump around in the movies kind of ticked me off, they should have at least showed some sort of sequence that shows the passing of time, even if its something that says "3 days later". In a New Hope they at least did the whole game and practice sequence. I loved Rogue one but they jumped around in hyper space like it was nothing. Never once saw them stop to make second jumps even though even the most established stable trade routes usually have a leg here and there to get around a hyperspace gravity shadow so they don't fly through a sun or end up in an asteroid field. Its one of the reasons the whole Kessel run comment was such a big deal. The kessel run for your average trader was 18 parsec because of taking established routes around the Maw. Han figured out a shortcut that was only 9 parsecs in length but didn't tell anyone the route.

the Prequels were even worse. It should have taken him minimally 2 weeks to get to Mustafar from there. Maybe a little less if there was an established route there that might cut some time off the trip. Force Awakens was retarded in how they treated hyperspace. The gravity plane of the planet would have pulled them out of hyper far before they hit atmo, let alone letting them pinpoint land inside the gravity well. Interdictors work by generating a gravity well that pulls ships out of hyperspace. When on standard patrol or doing random inspections they would sit on established hyperspace lanes and pull anyone who happened by out.

Misereor
2017-07-07, 02:50 PM
I got a question about Telos and Citadel Station. Does is still make any sense in my timeline? Telos was destroyed by Malak without permission from Revan but Citadel Station was build by the Republic after Malak was defeated. Would it still be plausible that the Sith would invest their not unlimited resources on restoring the planet now that another apprentice of Revan has taken over? And would it make sense that it's run by Ithorians? They don't seem like the kind of people who would work for the Sith. But then, they could be from a colony conquered by the Sith and made to work as high skill slaves. Thoughts on that? Am I getting any facts wrong?

I remembered it as 20, but I can see that I'm way off.
Citadel station doesn't make a whole lot of sense in your scenario. It's a super expensive planetary restoration project, and neither Republic or Revan's remnant can afford that if they're preparing for renewal of war. The Telos system had a large Naval Base before Telos IV was destroyed. That makes sense as it's right on what will later become the Hydian Way Hyperspace Lane. Rebuilding the naval base would make sense too, regardless who holds the system. It could be used to quickly reinforce any system in the vicinity and is easy to resupply from both Rim and Core, so you definitely have a good case for a large station in the system.

Yora
2017-07-07, 06:02 PM
Looking for info on the naval base, I spotted that Telos used to be a huge food producer for the region. With the Sith being on the defense and cut off from trade, redeveloping Telos could be a smart long term investment. Supplying an army with food is war critical industry.
Certainly something worse gathering lots of Ithorian slaves for. And since huge amounts of food would take a lot of huge freighters to carry, a big star base would also make sense. Combining a major naval base with food production is a great setup for a massive Sith supply hub. A place great for sabotage, stealing special equipment, and getting rides on Sith freigters. Nice hint.

Malak probably used the same method as for Taris and turbolasers should be nontoxic. :smallwink: As long as he only annihilated all settlements, microbial life in the soil should have survived. And with all the ash in the atmosphere, the ground should have been very fertile once it all settled down.
Of course, the Sith would not have bothered with cleaning up the ruined cities but simply built new industrial farms between them. That could be an interesting environent to sneak around in.

ATHATH
2017-07-09, 03:03 AM
Okay, just dropping in to say this: If you plan to play KOTOR 2, pick up the Restored Content mod. KOTOR 2 was kind of rushed towards the end of its development, so a bunch of sideplots and such were just left hanging, an entire planet was cut out, and a ton of bugs were left in (one of which was a really annoying dialogue-skipping bug, which caused me to miss out on the latter half of the story :smallfrown:). The Restored Content mod adds that stuff back in, and I recommend for even your first playthrough.

For reference, this is a list of the stuff that the Restored Content mod add back in (note: it extends past the first post, but also might contain some major spoilers, so just look at the size of the list and leave the page): http://deadlystream.com/forum/topic/139-whats-restored-in-tslrcm/

Yora
2017-07-09, 07:28 AM
No, I'll be ignoring KotOR2 and TOR. I need both the Jedi and Revan's Sith Empire relatively strong and not both virtually extinct.

I got a couple of new ideas for a wider range of conflicts and things going on in general than just the Sith:

The Witches of Dathomir are sitting right between Ithor, Arkania, Toprawa, and Mandalore. That means everyone would rather have them on their own side than helping one of their enemies. But since they are neither Jedi nor Sith and value their own traditions, they don't want to join anyone's side and are very forceful about that. I got a general idea about the Sith Empress going looking for ancient Force knowledge and the Witches certainly have a good number of secrets that nobody else knows.

The Mandalorians have completely ditched the idea of the Neo-Crusaders and their current mainstream is the very conservative old guard on Mandalore. They think the Mandalorian Wars under Mandalore the Ultimate were a disgrace to all their traditions and culture and don't feel too bad about Revan defeating the Neo-Crusaders. Many are actually glad he killed Mandalore the Ultimate. In contrast they have started to praise Mandalore the Indomitable as a great leader who led them into glorious battle in the Great Sith War. While officially neutral, they lean much more towards the Sith Empire than the Galactic Republic,
(I actually just now realized that Darth Kybar was half eaten by beasts in the same place at the same time under the same circumstances that Mandalore the Indomitable was eaten by beasts. Did Mandalore the Indomitable ever find the whole body...? :smallamused:)

Officially there is of course a Republic embargo on trade with the Sith Empire. But of course there's still shiploads of stuff being illegally smuggled to Toprawa. And one company that would certainly engage in large scale smuggling of their own goods is Adascorp on Arkania. Trade disputes are totally not cool in Star Wars, but this should make an interesting background for various other kinds of shady deals going on.
One of the main branches of Adascorp is biotech, which is also the main export industry of the Ithorians. Ithorian authorities would have a great interest in uncovering the illegal activities of their competitors and making them public.

On the other hand, Czerka Corp has no problem openly trading with the Sith. They are already under sanctions in the Republic anyway. So they are running a very lucrative business shipping goods from Hutt Space to Toprawa. And if you can't go through Republic Space, this makes the obvious route go through Saleucami. So they will have a very strong presence on that planet.
A planet that is also close to Kashyyyk and Trandosha. Czerka Corps loves wookie slaves and glady makes deals with Trandoshan slavers supplying them.

From all the planets on my list, Iridonia is by far the closest to the Unknown Regions and Rakata Prime. I seem to remember that the Star Forge was not all that it was praised as and actually drained the power of whoever was using it. This weakened Revan to the point where his apprentices overthrew him. The Empress was smarter than that and didn't repeat that mistake, instead using the Star Forge only to produce construction material to rebuild the ancient Sith shipyards on Ch'hodos and then abandon it. The Republic and Jedi would obviously have destroyed it then, but the Sith could have hidden all kinds of stuff on Iridonia on their retreat to Sith Space that they might come back for later. Like now.

Misereor
2017-07-09, 04:08 PM
Looking for info on the naval base, I spotted that Telos used to be a huge food producer for the region. With the Sith being on the defense and cut off from trade, redeveloping Telos could be a smart long term investment. Supplying an army with food is war critical industry.
Certainly something worse gathering lots of Ithorian slaves for. And since huge amounts of food would take a lot of huge freighters to carry, a big star base would also make sense. Combining a major naval base with food production is a great setup for a massive Sith supply hub. A place great for sabotage, stealing special equipment, and getting rides on Sith freigters. Nice hint.


Could make sense if there are no other major agricultural centres available nearby.
Dantooine is close and an agricultural hub, but I suppose if the Jedi were back and had reinforced the place, that could make taking it more trouble than it was worth for the new Sith, forcing them to look for alternatives. I think I would make it into a training camp for ground forces also. It is already protected by the Naval base and nice and easy to resupply.

Btw a lot of the stuff from KoToR2 isn't that hard to modify into something usable for the campaign you're describing. I would take a look at it if I were you.

Yora
2017-07-10, 12:28 AM
That seems like a lot of work for reaearching a timeline I am going to ignore. Both the Jedi Purge and the Sith Triumvirate won't be happening in this campaign. Looking up the planets on Wookiepedia for a few hours for what happened to them before KotOR seems like much less trouble.

kraftcheese
2017-07-10, 11:06 AM
I'd reccomend playing KOTOR 2 if you get the chance just because it's a great game (with restored content mod of course) but you're right that its a big time investment just for a few Star Wars ideas that may or may not be relevant to what you want to explore. Unless you really want to go into deconstructing the Jedi and Sith, it probably won't help much.

Mark Hall
2017-07-10, 11:16 AM
You don't even have to play ALL of KOTOR2. Just the opening section, on the mining station. A fantastic opening, that I've used several times in other settings.

Yora
2017-07-10, 12:28 PM
In our modern days of technological wonders, I can still just watch the relevant sections. Making the Telos station recognizable to players who played the Citadel Station levels would certainly be a bonus.
Even though it can't actually be the same station, which was constructed after the Republic retook the planet. But amazingly improbable similarities are a staple of alternative histories. :smallwink:
The Sith just got the same idea some decades later.

ATHATH
2017-07-10, 12:32 PM
Note that KOTOR 2 has kind of a different theme than the first game- while KOTOR played most of the Star Wars tropes straight, KOTOR 2 deconstructs the setting (and RPGs in general). There's some more stuff on (the planet of) Mandalore in it as well- you can even have (the then-current) Mandalore join your party! Also, you can influence your party members' alignments now (either towards or away from yours, depending on their opinion of you), which is pretty cool.

Also, HK-47 returns for the sequel- and who DOESN'T want more HK-47, meatbag?

Martin Greywolf
2017-07-11, 08:36 AM
I'd still pick ideas out of KotOR 2, they were some of the most interesting things I've seen in SW (I also liked Kreia and philosophizing about the nature of the Force, but that's not really relevant here).

I think the most interesting idea there was that major wars and battles did have effects on the Force, and that you can tap into that power, albeit at a cost. Malachor V was one of the creepiest places I ever visited in a videogame thanks to all that buildup, even if the execution itself was... well, lacking is the kindest way to put it.

Heck, you could have a really interesting campaign out of Revan's Empire and Republic having to join forces against Nihilus and Sion, plotting to stab each other in the back all the while.

kraftcheese
2017-07-11, 09:29 AM
There's some more stuff on (the planet of) Mandalore in it as well- you can even have (the then-current) Mandalore join your party!
I hate to be That Pedantic Guy, but the planet was actually called Dxun and was just a Mandalorian stronghold, not Mandalore itself.

Yora
2017-07-11, 01:57 PM
Dxun is also a cool planet, though.

I've been researching some opinions on the game and when it got praise it was usually for being very atypical for Star Wars and looking at the setting very differently. I also looked up some videos on it, which just don't get me hooked. And what really makes me like KotOR so much is how it captures the style and spirit of The Empire Strike Back and Return of the Jedi (and also Revenge of the Sith) better than any other games ever did.
This is not the Star Wars I am looking for. Move along.

That being said, I am currently trying to figure out how to best prepare for such a campaign and introduce the players to it. Since I am not using a d20 game to run it, I won't have to prepare maps and NPC stats. This allows for very open-world play, which also really benefits to give players the option to go to the Dark Side at any time and attempt to take over various groups, factions, or organizations.
I think instead what really is important is to have a great cast of NPCs with solid personalities and goals. When you have a solid grasp of how NPCs think and what they want, you can pretty well free wheel it.

Still, even without a scripted plot, I think there still needs to be mysteries to be solved and threats to be defeated. Or in short, NPCs with a plan that the players probably won't approve of. The Big Bad in this scenario would obviously be the Sith Empress. I want her to be smart and sensible and work on maintaining a solid power base instead of roaming the galaxy and blowing planets up on a whim. Which is why I have her rebuild the shipyards on Ch'hodos, restore agriculture on Telos, and turn Toprawa into a major trade center. But she's also a Sith Lord and so she needs to be actually evil and pose an immediate threat. Invading the Republic and being unstopable except by the PCs would be the typical RPG scenario. Prevent the Big Bad from completing the ritual/superweapon with which he will become tyrant of the world. But it actually doesn't really quite strike me as being in the spirit of Star Wars.
Maybe something a bit simpler, like stopping a plot to bring the Mandalorians into the Empire and with their help taking over the independent systems of the Outer Rim? That would be a bit of a rehash of the Mandalorian Wars and even the Great Sith War. But would that be bad? Repeating themes and images is a big part of the Star Wars style. Maybe I could take something of this kind and give it my own personal new touch?

Mark Hall
2017-07-11, 02:25 PM
One of the things I thought about in playing SWTOR was the political and philosophical mismatch between the Sith and the Sith Empire, and how it mirrored the mismatch between the Jedi and the Republic.

The Empire were about control. Centralization of power and technique, so everyone was doing the same things the same way... while the Sith were about variety. Two Sith might do things entirely differently, and they would violently defend their ability to do so. While there was a heirarchy based on power, adjacent heirarchies would not necessarily be terribly similar... your Master wouldn't work the same as Bob the Sith's Master, and while you had some broad fences to play in, you could do pretty much whatever you liked within them, so long as you didn't upset the apple cart of someone more powerful. This made individual Sith a wild card in the staid Empire plans. They might do ANYTHING, whereas the Imperials always knew from whence and to thence power and authority flowed.

Compare this to the Jedi and the Republic. Individual Republic worlds could be anything. Radical anarcho-monarchists? Democracy of those randomly assigned the name Slartibartfast? Competitive cheesemongers, with the greatest leading the Quesocracy? All are allowable in the Republic. Just stay within the fences, and the Republic will let you do your own thing. The Jedi, though? A central council that directs individual Jedi into doing what they're supposed to be doing. At any point, a Jedi might get orders to drop what they're doing and go elsewhere and, while they may argue that what they're doing is important and can't be abandoned, the expectation is that they'll do what they're told if they can't convince the council of it.

So, what if the Sith Empress is looking to adopt the Jedi organizational method (not necessarily philsophy, just the centralized command structure and regularized methods)? You have a massive Sith Empire, rolling on along through the galaxy, adding new planets all the time... but their religious caste is in the midst of a civil war, with the Empress trying to impose regulation on a group of Sith who don't want to be regulated? Perversely, this is good for the military, since Darth Malidea isn't going to show up and drag your attack group off to plunder some Sith Temple or derail your R&D into building a better kyber crystal for his lightsaber or some such thing.

She's still evil, and your early adventures can heavily feature the military conflict... but with the brewing religious civil war always in the background, and the slow appearance of Sith Monks... orders of dark side users organized into cadres and working groups, answering to a central authority. You then have a sympathetic sith appear, and try to drag these effective counter-Imperial troops into aiding the Free Sith side of the civil war... preserving the Sith's chaotic organization, and possibly unseating the Empress, to help protect the Galaxy from the encroaching Empire.

Yora
2017-07-11, 03:34 PM
Sith hierarchy seems like a prime and pure example of might makes right. Any legitimacy to rule comes only from power, and order is maintained entirely through control by force. There are no rules or procedures. Authority comes from the ability to punish disobedience.
What I really liked in the first movie, which since then has never really been used again, is that Vader is not the number two in the Empire. He may not be obedient to Tarkin, but Tarkin has so much support from the Emperor that Vader has to be civil with him. Tarkin can scold him because they both know Vader would recieve the wrath of the Emperor if he touches him. Later it was simply that Vader outranks everyone except the emperor, and I think that carried over to all Sith who followed.
I more prefer the Sith to be a separate structure from the Imperial Forces, but in something called the Sith Empire they would obviously be of pretty high importance and have great powers to interfere with the military. Perhaps something along the line of a single party state, with that party being the Sith in this case. The only point where Sith, military. and state completely overlap is the Empress, who is Dark Lord, supreme commander, and head of government in a single person.
Below her could be the other Sith Masters who outrank all the admirals, but the lower ranking Apprentices and Disciples all get their influence in the military only from the authority of their masters. The admirals don't have to do anything for them that doesn't come directly from their masters, who in turn have to take responsibility for the actions of their underlings before the Empress. And given any choice, they typically won't.
A result of this is that everything hinges on the Empress. If she falls, all order collapses and it's a free for all for all the Sith Masters and Admirals. Which for all enemies of the Empire is good. And for the Empress it's vital that it never happens.
Some plot to strengthen her power over her own minions without making it look like she's vulnerable could be a pretty nice starting point. It's really bad for the Republic and the Jedi if she succeeds, and the path to accomplishing her goal could lead through a lot of slaughter and destruction. And if the players feel like going to the Dark Side, the campaign can easily morph into a cold civil war.
Yet at the same time, whatever might replace the Empress if she is overthrown might be many times worth for the Republic, as she works on creating a sustainable state, which for Sith lords is a very restrained activity. If she gets overthrown there will almost certainly be invasions of the Republic soon after.

One thing I really like, that KotOR either created or at least made mainstream, is the concept of Gray Jedi. In my eyes, Gray Jedi are actually just sensible realist Jedi, but in contrast to them the Council Jedi become more emphasized as extremist traditionalists. Which I think is actually an attempt to fix the somewhat odd rules and behaviors that were established during the Clone Wars years, which don't make the Jedi look particularly heroic or compasionate. Weather it was deliberate to make the Jedi look questionable in those works or an unintended reception by audiences is probably going to remain one of the big mysteries of Star Wars.
But I think the (retroactive?) addition of close minded ultra-conservative Light Side Jedi actually greatly enhances the setting. It has great potential for complex conflicts. While the Republic Military Intelligence would greatly fear a destabilization of the Imperial Forces, the Jedi Council would greatly welcome an opportunity to disrupt and weaken the Sith Order. The Council is allied with the Republic, but not it's loyal servant. Matters of the Force are of much greater importance than political concerns.
And for Gray Jedi there simply would not be a clear right path. Help the Empress to secure her position and conquer independent systems, or help starting a civil war that will spill out through the whole Rim and into the Republic? Two badd choices are always the most entertaining choices.

A search for the method Markar Ragnos used to keep the ancient Sith in line, and what mistake Naga Sadow made in controling the other Sith Lords could be a good main plan for the Empress. And of course she would need the services of outside agents since the Sith Masters below her can't be fully trusted in this undertaking. A good opportunity to weave additional factions into the greater events. Somehow getting Adascorp involved into this would be great, though I don't have any immediate ideas how bio-tech could help with that.

Yora
2017-07-13, 01:10 PM
I got another great idea: The Empress wants to restore Telos 4 and start large scale food production far away from the republic to have more security in maintaining a much larger fleet. They captured Ithorian scientists from a colony they conquered and made them create Citadel Station, but they are not making the required progress. So one of her agents went to Arkania to get Adascorp to secretly manufacture a powerful chemical that will massively speed up the transformation of the surface of Telos into fertile soil. Being deep in Republic space, Adascorp has to make sure that nothing of this deal leaks. They are smuggling prototypes of the chemical to Telos, where some of the Ithorian scientists recognize Adascorps fingerprints on the design and storage and handling precedures. Some of them manage to pass the information to their people on Ithor who are now considering how to best expose Adascorp's betrayal of the Republic in a way that best serves their own interests as another top leader of the biotech industry.
Meanwhile the Sith and some top managers at Adascorp are working to secretly make Arkania a world of the Sith Empire, which would be an incredible threat in the event of a new war between the Empire and the Republic. And as an added complication, the chemical that can turn charred organic remains into soil is just as effective at decomposing living plants and people. Produced in sufficient quantities (like for restoring a dead world) it can be used as a very effective planet killer.

This is one of the great things about working with these massive settings with mountains of information. You only need a very simple idea to start with and once you start looking into its background you can get these big plots emerging pretty much by themselves. Which aren't simply interesting, but also already deeply woven into the established history. Simply because Ithor lies halfway between Telos and Arkania. :smallwink:

ATHATH
2017-07-13, 02:35 PM
I hate to be That Pedantic Guy, but the planet was actually called Dxun and was just a Mandalorian stronghold, not Mandalore itself.
*eye twitches*

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

((Thanks for pointing that out.))

Mark Hall
2017-07-13, 04:58 PM
*eye twitches*

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

((Thanks for pointing that out.))

The planet was Onderon. The moon was Dxun.

The planet at the end of the game was Malachor, which might have gotten Mandalore stuck in your head.

Yora
2017-07-14, 12:14 AM
Dxun is great. It's a ridiculously dangerous monster zoo even worse than Onderon.

I feel like Onderon and Dxun have been very much underused in books and games. Being where Freedon Nadd was burried and Exar Kun restored the Sith, it's a really important place.

Misereor
2017-07-14, 02:39 AM
Dxun is great. It's a ridiculously dangerous monster zoo even worse than Onderon.

I feel like Onderon and Dxun have been very much underused in books and games. Being where Freedon Nadd was burried and Exar Kun restored the Sith, it's a really important place.

You know, you get to visit his tomb in KoToR2 (*bait*, *bait*, *tempt*, *lure*)

kraftcheese
2017-07-14, 05:35 AM
The planet was Onderon. The moon was Dxun.

The planet at the end of the game was Malachor, which might have gotten Mandalore stuck in your head.
So it's a sort of reverse "That's no moon!" situation?

Mark Hall
2017-07-14, 09:06 AM
So it's a sort of reverse "That's no moon!" situation?

They are close enough that they share an atmosphere, IIRC. I don't know how that would work, outside of space opera.

Yora
2017-07-14, 12:03 PM
Ossus had to be evacuated in a mad rush when a cluser of nearby stars exploded. Which means at least one of those stars would have had to be within the same solar system. Star Wars space does not work like normal space. Which is one of the things that plants it firmly in fantasy.

Which is actuallly one of the things that I worry about. Most of my ideas for villains and conflicts are too logical and reasonable. To really recreate the Star Wars feel it has to be magical.

Actually, this alternate history for a KotOR Dark Side ending sucks. It's boring.

I first thought about setting it 200 years aftee KotOR so I could discard Revan as some past historic figure. (He's getting way overhyped by fans and later writers, though that's the case for pretty much all Sith and Jedi as well.) And limiting the Sith Empire to the Rim was so that there's still a Republic to be threatened after all that time.
But this makes the Sith Empire just some third degree dictators no more threatening than Hutt Space, the Hapes Cluster, or the Argazdan Redoubt, which only still exists because the Republic doesn't think it's worth the trouble to destroy it. And I was thinking too much in free roaming sandbox mode while Star Wars should be daring struggles in front of an epic background.

The Force is not strong with this one.

So here's an idea for an upgraded version:

20 years have passed since the battle of the Star Forge and the Sith Empire has not retreated to it's bastions in the Outer Rim to dig in for the long run, but instead has simply stalled in its offensive against the Republic since Revan died. And now the Empress is seeking for ancient Sith knowledge that will enable her to continue the conquest of the galaxy.

Cathar is now part of the Empire.
Dathomir lies in Imperial space but has been pretty much in constant rebellion since the first day, with the Witches refusing to bow to the Sith. But they don't want any Jedi meddling as well.
Ithor is right on the front and widely expected to be one of the first targets when the Sith resume their invasion of the Repubic.
Dantooine is also in Imperial territory though considered insignificant. With the destruction of Ossus and the loss of Dantooine, as well as the death of Odan-Ur and the Jedi being highly decentralized at this time, the Temple on Coruscant has only very limited information about details of the Great Hyperspace War and the Ancient Sith. The ruins of the Enclave are one place where one could find out more about what the Empress is up to.
Mandalore has been impossible to capture and exists as a tiny neutral region between the Empire and the Republic.
Ord Mantel is not simply a fleet base but the Republic headquarter for the ongoing war with the Sith.
Saleucami is rolling in credits for being the main space port where goods from the Republic, the Empire, and Hutt Space are traded freely.

Adascorp secretly providing valuable biotech to the Sith and planning to take over Arkania still works as a side plot.
Czerka Corp paying Trandoshan Slavers to hunt Wookiees to be sold to the Sith becomes more interesting with a war going on nearby.
And a Krath cult on Saleucami would threaten to hand over the planet fully to the Sith.

More or less the same pieces, but all a bit more dramatic now.

Misereor
2017-07-17, 05:57 AM
So here's an idea for an upgraded version:
20 years have passed since the battle of the Star Forge and the Sith Empire has not retreated to it's bastions in the Outer Rim to dig in for the long run, but instead has simply stalled in its offensive against the Republic since Revan died. And now the Empress is seeking for ancient Sith knowledge that will enable her to continue the conquest of the galaxy.


And the Starforge?

Yora
2017-07-17, 11:05 AM
Being effectively a non-movable superweapon with a known location, I think that any scenario requires it to be destroyed.