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cupkeyk
2007-08-07, 08:25 AM
I am building a Dungeon Crasher in conjunction with a (spiked) shield bash and knockback and driving attack. Basically I have a pure fighter so far but it seems pretty all over the place to me and possibly weak. A little (or a lot) of help would be appreciated.

Neanderthal: +2 Str -2 Dex +2 Con -2 Int, medium, 30 ft., barbarian, humanoid (human), frostburn pg.36

1 Improved Shield Bash, Jotunbrud
2 Dungeon Crasher 2d6
3 Power Attack
4 Improved Bullrush
5 --

6 Dungeon Crasher 2 Shock Trooper
7
8 Knockback
9 Weapon Focus(Shield Bash)
10 weapon Specialization (Shield Bash)

11
12 Combat Expertise, Melee Weapon Mastery (Piercing)
13
14 Driving Attack
15 Improved Trip

16 Overwhelming Assault
17
18 Shield Charge, Shield Slam
19
20 (Ability Focus- Shield Slam)

basically the idea is to send opponents flying into walls, pin them there, trip them too and squish them. Knockback and driving attack removes uber harsh penalties for being medium(large because of Jotunbrud)

This build is a mess. LOLz.

kjones
2007-08-07, 08:44 AM
This seems like it would be an obvious choice, but take Improved Bull Rush at 1st level rather than 4th; your core ability relies on it to a degree.

The Great Skenardo
2007-08-07, 08:47 AM
This seems like it would be an obvious choice, but take Improved Bull Rush at 1st level rather than 4th; your core ability relies on it to a degree.

Uh, you need power attack for Bull Rush. That wouldn't work, I'm afraid.

cupkeyk
2007-08-07, 08:55 AM
And Jotunbrud can only be taken at level 1. But then i can bump improved shield bash up , take power attack at 1, Improved bull rush at 3 and shock trooper at 4.


1 Power Attack, Jotunbrud
2 Dungeon Crasher 2d6
3 Improved Bullrush
4 Shock Trooper
5 --

6 Dungeon Crasher 2 Knockback
7
8 Improved Shield Bash
9 Weapon Focus(Shield Bash)
10 weapon Specialization (Shield Bash)

11
12 Combat Expertise, Melee Weapon Mastery (Piercing)
13
14 Driving Attack
15 Improved Trip

16 Overwhelming Assault
17
18 Shield Charge, Shield Slam
19
20 (Ability Focus- Shield Slam)

Ikkitosen
2007-08-07, 09:03 AM
Shock Trooper requires BAB +6 IIRC.

cupkeyk
2007-08-07, 09:08 AM
Shock Trooper requires BAB +6 IIRC. Arg, Your right. knockback at four, Shocktrooper to six.

1 Power Attack, Jotunbrud
2 Dungeon Crasher 2d6
3 Improved Bullrush
4 Knockback
5 --

6 Dungeon Crasher 2 Shock Trooper
7
8 Improved Shield Bash
9 Weapon Focus(Shield Bash)
10 Weapon Specialization (Shield Bash)

11
12 Combat Expertise, Melee Weapon Mastery (Piercing)
13
14 Driving Attack
15 Improved Trip

16 Overwhelming Assault
17
18 Shield Charge, Shield Slam
19
20 (Ability Focus- Shield Slam)

Person_Man
2007-08-07, 09:55 AM
You need to be Large size or have the Powerful Build racial trait (Goliath and Half Giants) to qualify for Knockback. I'm not sure you can use Jotunbrud to substitute for that, since Jotunbrud is not called Powerful Build, and nowhere within the text of Jotunbrud does it say that you count as Large in order to qualify for feats. You should check with your DM.

Also, you're probably aware of the mathmatical deficiencies of Weapon and Shield style compared to Two Haneded Weapon style, given how Power Attack and Leap Attack work.

My suggestion is to use a standard reach weapon. Since enemies will be ping-ponging away from you with Knockback, you can dump your AC with Shock Trooper and get a huge damage bonus from Leap Attack.

Goliath Fighter (+1 LA)
1 Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush
2 Dungeon Crasher 2d6
3 Knockback
4 Combat Reflexes
5
6 Dungeon Crasher 2, Shock Trooper
7
8 Leap Attack
9 Hold the Line

After 9th level, its pretty much open.

If you want to add Trip to your build, then your best bet is Knock-Down (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/divineFeats.html) from the SRD.

Overwhelming Assault is great, but it works very poorly with Knockback. In order to maximize Overwhelming Assult, you need as many AoO as possible. That means Combat Reflexes, Hold the Line, Karmic Strike, Robilar's Gambit, Double Hit, and a huge Dex. But Knockback pushes enemies away from you, making it almost impossible to get more then a few AoO per turn.

In fact, even without Overwhelming Assault, Knockback tends to be a poor choice for most builds in a high level game, because it removes the possibility of a Full Attack action in most rounds. (Though there are obvious exceptions, such as a Bloodstorm Blade build).

Leon
2007-08-07, 09:57 AM
Take a flaw to gain that extra feat at 1st

cupkeyk
2007-08-07, 10:08 AM
You need to be Large size or have the Powerful Build racial trait (Goliath and Half Giants) to qualify for Knockback. I'm not sure you can use Jotunbrud to substitute for that, since Jotunbrud is not called Powerful Build, and nowhere within the text of Jotunbrud does it say that you count as Large in order to qualify for feats. You should check with your DM.

Also, you're probably aware of the mathmatical deficiencies of Weapon and Shield style compared to Two Haneded Weapon style, given how Power Attack and Leap Attack work.

My suggestion is to use a standard reach weapon. Since enemies will be ping-ponging away from you with Knockback, you can dump your AC with Shock Trooper and get a huge damage bonus from Leap Attack.

Goliath Fighter (+1 LA)
1 Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush
2 Dungeon Crasher 2d6
3 Knockback
4 Combat Reflexes
5
6 Dungeon Crasher 2, Shock Trooper
7
8 Leap Attack
9 Hold the Line

After 9th level, its pretty much open.

If you want to add Trip to your build, then your best bet is Knock-Down (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/divineFeats.html) from the SRD.

Overwhelming Assault is great, but it works very poorly with Knockback. In order to maximize Overwhelming Assult, you need as many AoO as possible. That means Combat Reflexes, Hold the Line, Karmic Strike, Robilar's Gambit, Double Hit, and a huge Dex. But Knockback pushes enemies away from you, making it almost impossible to get more then a few AoO per turn.

In fact, even without Overwhelming Assault, Knockback tends to be a poor choice for most builds in a high level game, because it removes the possibility of a Full Attack action in most rounds. (Though there are obvious exceptions, such as a Bloodstorm Blade build).

Hmmmn, I thought Overwhelming assault would be beneficial since you are bullrushing your opponent into a wall. But then you are right it doesn't accumulate over rounds. I thought it made sense with Shield slam and Trip since the opponent is dazed and prone.

Knockback makes sense since you are pinning them against a wall, they still stay in front of you...

as for jotunbrud, yeah it doesn't say that I am treated as large, but I hate to take up an LA. as for Flaws, our campaign doesn't do flaws.

Person_Man
2007-08-07, 10:53 AM
Hmmmn, I thought Overwhelming assault would be beneficial since you are bullrushing your opponent into a wall. But then you are right it doesn't accumulate over rounds. I thought it made sense with Shield slam and Trip since the opponent is dazed and prone.

Overwhelming Assult allows you to make a single double damage attack as a full round action (and allows all other attacks that round, such as AoO, to be double damage). Dungeon Crasher provides extra dice of damage when you Bull Rush an enemy into a wall. Extra dice of damage are never multiplied. Thus Overwhelming Assult has no benefit when combined with Dungeon Crasher.

Also, you're a Fighter. Your damage output should be sky high, which means that you should be able to kill any single enemy in one round. Thus many feats that pin/daze/disarm/etc your enemies are generally a waste.

Consider working with your party members to maximize Dungeoncrasher. For example, Animate Object creates a number of floating objects that move independently around the room, which qualify as "a solid object" for Dungeoncrasher.

Iku Rex
2007-08-09, 12:57 PM
Arg, Your right. knockback at four, Shocktrooper to six.

1 Power Attack, Jotunbrud
2 Dungeon Crasher 2d6
3 Improved Bullrush
4 Knockback
5 --

6 Dungeon Crasher 2 Shock Trooper
7
8 Improved Shield Bash
9 Weapon Focus(Shield Bash)
10 Weapon Specialization (Shield Bash)

11
12 Combat Expertise, Melee Weapon Mastery (Piercing)
13
14 Driving Attack
15 Improved Trip

16 Overwhelming Assault
17
18 Shield Charge, Shield Slam
19
20 (Ability Focus- Shield Slam)Assuming you manage to convince your DM to let you have the Jotunbrud feat and to use it to qualify for Knockback, the build looks good. I'm not sure if Expertise/Improved Trip is worth it though, and some of the high-level options can't be used at the same time.

You may want the True Believer (CDiv) feat in there somewhere, to let you use the Belt of the Champion relic (MIC, +5 Str checks).

If you're willing to abandon the purity of a straight fighter build, a heavy weapon (MagFaer) would make your shield an exotic weapon and thus qualify you for Exotic Weapon Master (CWar) and Uncanny Blow.

***


Overwhelming Assult allows you to make a single double damage attack as a full round action (and allows all other attacks that round, such as AoO, to be double damage). Dungeon Crasher provides extra dice of damage when you Bull Rush an enemy into a wall. Extra dice of damage are never multiplied. Thus Overwhelming Assult has no benefit when combined with Dungeon Crasher. He's talking about the feat Overwhelming Assault, not the Overpowering Attack alternate class feature. The idea was to daze the opponent and then go again on the next round with +4 on attacks since the opponent hadn't attacked him.

Also, you're a Fighter. Your damage output should be sky high, which means that you should be able to kill any single enemy in one round. Thus many feats that pin/daze/disarm/etc your enemies are generally a waste.
Nonsense. He won't have the damage output to kill enemies that easily (unless they stand next to a wall) and anyway that's obviously not the point of the build. In my experience shutting down an opponent for a round or two is more effective than a dealing few extra points of damage.

Consider working with your party members to maximize Dungeoncrasher. For example, Animate Object creates a number of floating objects that move independently around the room, which qualify as "a solid object" for Dungeoncrasher.No they don't. By the RAW, animated objects are creatures, not objects.