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KoDT69
2007-08-07, 02:22 PM
I am currently revising a 14th level fighter in a Forgotten Realms campaign (as noted in the Batman fighter thread) and decided to go with at least a decent critical threat range and good base damage. I just need to know how do you interpret the text on critical hits? The SRD says you roll a second attack worth of damage and add it, but does that include everything? STR, Power Attack, Flaming/Shock/etc? Let's just say that we have a fighter with a +4 flaming burst greatsword, 18 STR, and power attacking for 10 points landing a confirmed critical hit. Let's also just use 7 damage for the greatsword to make the math simple. The fighter also has Weapon Specialization - Greatsword for this scenario.

This is how I see it

7(sword) + 2(wep spec) + 6(STR x1.5) + 15(power attack x1.5) + 4(magic wep) + 4(fire) = 38
34 x2 = 76 + 6(1d10 flame burst) = 82

Is that right? What is excluded in the critical damage?

lord_khaine
2007-08-07, 02:25 PM
the rules are pretty simple, if you roll a critt, then the base damage of the weapon+fixed modifiers are multiplied by the critt factor, here *2.
dice that are addet to your damage, like flaming or sneak attack, isnt multiplied on a critt.

KoDT69
2007-08-07, 02:28 PM
So that means only the weapon dice, enhancement bonus, and STR are multiplied?

Jasdoif
2007-08-07, 02:32 PM
The weapon's base damage dice and all non-dice bonus damage are multiplied. Dice bonus damage is not.

The greatsword's 2d6 is the weapon's base damage, and thus multiplied.
The weapon specialization bonus is not expressed in dice, and thus multiplied.
The strength bonus is not expressed in dice, and thus multiplied.
The power attack bonus is not expressed in dice, and thus multiplied.
The weapon's enhancement bonus is not expressed in dice, and thus multiplied.
The weapon's fiery burst fire damage is expressed in dice, and thus not multiplied.

blue_fenix
2007-08-07, 02:36 PM
Yeah, so a flaming scimitar, power attacking, would get 2d6(weapon)+3*str+2*power_attack_damage+1d6(flamin g only counts once).

Gralamin
2007-08-07, 02:41 PM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm

A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together

Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.
This means 2d6 is multiiplied (By rolling 2d6 again). Weapon Specialization, Strength bonus, Power attack, and enhancement bonus would be multiplied.
Also, Power Attack is *2, not *1.5

Taking your example
2(sword) + 2(wep spec) + 6(STR x1.5) + 4(magic wep) = 14
Then you roll your sword again:
12(Sword) + 2 (Wep Spec) + 6(Str x 1.5) + 4 (Magic Wep) = 24
14 (Roll 1) + 24 (Roll 2) + 6 (Flaming burst) + 4 (Fire) + 20(power attack x2) = 68
Thus, If you rolled minimum then maximum, and average +.5 on your fire enhancements, you'd crit for 68.

As one Equation:
4d6 (Sword) + 4(Wep Spec) + 12(Str x 1.5) + 20 (Power attack x2) + 8(Magic Weapon) + 1d10 (Flaming burst) + 1d6 (Fire) = 4d6 + 24 (Assorted bonuses) + 20 (power attack) + 1d10 (Flaming Burst) + 1d6 (Fire)
The minimum damage you can do on a crit is 50, the maximum is 84.

Edit: Oops Power attack isn't multiplied.
Edit2: I think that is right now. If there is a mistake just say so.

Zherog
2007-08-07, 03:34 PM
Don't forget that flaming burst adds an extra d10 of fire damage...

Gralamin
2007-08-07, 04:05 PM
Its in my calculations. I'm pretty sure that is right above, but something feels wrong with it. Someone will spot it eventually.

Zherog
2007-08-07, 04:18 PM
Found your problem...


4d6 (Sword) + 4(Wep Spec) + 6(Str x 1.5) + 20 (Power attack x2) + 8(Magic Weapon) + 6 (Flaming burst) + 4 (Fire) = 4d6 + 28 (Assorted bonuses) + 20 (power attack)

You've doubled everything except the Strength damage. It should be +12.

brian c
2007-08-07, 04:37 PM
Don't forget that flaming burst adds an extra d10 of fire damage...

Right, though remember to note that the extra 1d10 is only for crits, but that's what we're talking about anyway.



So.... critical hits... funny that whenever I've played, ever, as a DM myself and with the 4 or 5 different DMs I've played with, we just multiply the rolled weapon damage by 2 instead of rolling it again and adding. Honestly, I didn't even know that you're supposed to re-roll it. Anyone else do this?

Gralamin
2007-08-07, 04:41 PM
Found your problem...



You've doubled everything except the Strength damage. It should be +12.
Aha! Okay that looks better.


Right, though remember to note that the extra 1d10 is only for crits, but that's what we're talking about anyway.



So.... critical hits... funny that whenever I've played, ever, as a DM myself and with the 4 or 5 different DMs I've played with, we just multiply the rolled weapon damage by 2 instead of rolling it again and adding. Honestly, I didn't even know that you're supposed to re-roll it. Anyone else do this?

I just found out you are supposed to re-roll it a few weeks ago. I always assumed multiplication as well.
On the upside, It limits the chance that when you do critical with say a scythe (2d4, x4, 8d4 on crit then), that the chance of rolling 8 damage is 1/4096 or so. (Though the chance of rolling that 32 damage is the same)

KoDT69
2007-08-07, 05:04 PM
From the SRD

Wielding a Weapon Two-Handed
When you deal damage with a weapon that you are wielding two-handed, you add 1½ times your Strength bonus. However, you don’t get this higher Strength bonus when using a light weapon with two hands.


Special
If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls.

So then it will be

4d6(sword) + 4(wep spec) +12(STR 4*1.5*2) + 8(wep bonus 4*2) + 40 (power attack 10*2*2) + 1d6(fire) + 1d10(flame burst) = 5d6 + 1d10 + 64

So 70 to 104... that seems crazy to me, but that is doubling all but the extra fire damages. :smallconfused:

Zherog
2007-08-07, 05:35 PM
That's not at all crazy. The 14th level wizard can cast plane shift, sending you to the negative energy plane, where you'll die a quick death. Or finger of death, and just kill you where you stand. Or mass hold person, which allows for everybody who fails the save to be coup de graced.

Or she can use her lower level spell slots and cast circle of death. Or disintegrate. Or flesh to stone.

Or she can go with even lower level spells, and cast dominate person on you, the fighter, and make you kill your party for her.

Gralamin
2007-08-07, 05:42 PM
From the SRD




So then it will be

4d6(sword) + 4(wep spec) +12(STR 4*1.5*2) + 8(wep bonus 4*2) + 40 (power attack 10*2*2) + 1d6(fire) + 1d10(flame burst) = 5d6 + 1d10 + 64

So 70 to 104... that seems crazy to me, but that is doubling all but the extra fire damages. :smallconfused:

You don't Double Power Attack:


http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm
Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.
Power attack is defiantly over and Above the Weapon's normal damage.

Aximili
2007-08-07, 05:58 PM
4d6(sword) + 4(wep spec) +12(STR 4*1.5*2) + 8(wep bonus 4*2) + 40 (power attack 10*2*2) + 1d6(fire) + 1d10(flame burst) = 5d6 + 1d10 + 64

So 70 to 104... that seems crazy to me, but that is doubling all but the extra fire damages. :smallconfused:

Of course it does, you criticalled when power attacking for 20. What did you expect?:smallwink:

Jasdoif
2007-08-07, 06:11 PM
You don't Double Power Attack:

Power attack is defiantly over and Above the Weapon's normal damage.If you want to go by that definition, you shouldn't be multiplying Weapon Specialization either. Or the Strength bonus.

Aximili
2007-08-07, 06:27 PM
Actually, it's really contradicting:

A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is ×2.

Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.
This specifically says that you add all your usual bonuses to the two damage rolls. The problem is, any bonus you would apply constitutes "extra damage over and above the weapons normal damage", and thus shouldn't be multiplied.

Jasdoif
2007-08-07, 06:32 PM
Actually, it's really contradicting:

This specifically says that you add all your usual bonuses to the two damage rolls. The problem is, any bonus you would apply constitutes "extra damage over and above the weapons normal damage", and thus shouldn't be multiplied.And then there's this:


Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results. Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage.

Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied.That last line looks really similar to the one noted for critical hits, except it says dice....

Gralamin
2007-08-07, 06:33 PM
Actually, it's really contradicting:

This specifically says that you add all your usual bonuses to the two damage rolls. The problem is, any bonus you would apply constitutes "extra damage over and above the weapons normal damage", and thus shouldn't be multiplied.

Well, the way I read it is (Because the flame properties aren't multiplied. See the magic weapon section of the SRD.), "If the damage wouldn't happen every turn, and its not extra dice from magic, then it is not multiplied."
Though thats my interpretation of a badly written rule.

edit: Theres more rules in a third place? Right now there is actions in combat, magic weapons, and now I'm guessing normal Weapons?
That is Very Confusing.
Edit: The Weapon section saids thus:

The entry in this column notes how the weapon is used with the rules for critical hits. When your character scores a critical hit, roll the damage two, three, or four times, as indicated by its critical multiplier (using all applicable modifiers on each roll), and add all the results together.

Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.
This is getting very confusing...
Edit: So Jasdoif, where did you pull that from?

Jasdoif
2007-08-07, 06:43 PM
edit: Theres more rules in a third place? Right now there is actions in combat, magic weapons, and now I'm guessing normal Weapons?
That is Very Confusing.
Edit: The Weapon section saids thus:

This is getting very confusing...The one I mentioned is under combat statistics, right there with the section for actions in combat. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#multiplyingDamage

Now, that's for multiplying damage in general, so as the more specific rule the one for critical hits would take precedence...but I prefer to think that the general multiplying one was changed to allow non-dice bonus damage, and that editors missed the incredibly-similar wording elsewhere in the book. If only because "extra damage dice" is a lot easier to work with.

Gralamin
2007-08-07, 06:46 PM
Right, So here is all the rules on Critical hits that we can find.

Critical Hits (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm)
A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is ×2.

Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.


Critical (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm)

The entry in this column notes how the weapon is used with the rules for critical hits. When your character scores a critical hit, roll the damage two, three, or four times, as indicated by its critical multiplier (using all applicable modifiers on each roll), and add all the results together.

Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.


Additional Damage Dice (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm)

Some magic weapons deal additional dice of damage. Unlike other modifiers to damage, additional dice of damage are not multiplied when the attacker scores a critical hit.


Multiplying Damage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#multiplyingDamage)

Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results. Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage.

Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied.
The damage multiplication is easier to work with, but isn't "Correct". Your way is a reasonable house rule (As is my reading of the very badly written rule repeated twice)

To me, the "using all applicable modifiers on each roll" States that the Weapon Enhancement, the Weapon specialisation should be multiplied. But would the Power attack be an applicable modifier?
I know that Sneak attack isn't multiplied for sure though.

Jasdoif
2007-08-07, 06:54 PM
The damage multiplication is easier to work with, but isn't "Correct". Your way is a reasonable house rule (As is my reading of the very badly written rule repeated twice)Fair enough.

I have now decided that RAW contradicting itself shall be called...ROTTEN. Short for "Reading Over This Tells of Exasperating Nonconformity".


To me, the "using all applicable modifiers on each roll" States that the Weapon Enhancement, the Weapon specialisation should be multiplied. But would the Power attack be an applicable modifier?Well...Power Attack, along with Weapon Specialization (and your Strength bonus), are described as adding to your damage rolls. So is an enhancement bonus; but the enhancement bonus is a property of the weapon, while the others are properties of the wielder.

Gralamin
2007-08-07, 06:59 PM
Fair enough.

I have now decided that RAW contradicting itself shall be called...ROTTEN. Short for "Reading Over This Tells of Exasperating Nonconformity".

Well...Power Attack, along with Weapon Specialization (and your Strength bonus), are described as adding to your damage rolls. So is an enhancement bonus; but the enhancement bonus is a property of the weapon, while the others are properties of the wielder.

True. I think the real problem is how that exception line is worded. I'm thinking that what it means is "If it does more damage then the weapon itself, It is not multiplied."
Which is still very confusing, but would keep Specialization, Enhancement Bonus, and Strength in there, but Eliminate power attack (Unless you power attacked for 6 extra damage. That can't be right...)

Aximili
2007-08-07, 07:03 PM
Well, the way I read it is (Because the flame properties aren't multiplied. See the magic weapon section of the SRD.), "If the damage wouldn't happen every turn, and its not extra dice from magic, then it is not multiplied."
How does "Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage" read as "damage that wouldn't happen every turn, and is not extra dice from magic"?


Anyway... This is bizarre.
They didn't just mess up once, they messed up twice in the same way.
They managed to write the same rule twice in one way and twice in another.
I'm honestly just gonna go with the rule as written under "Multiplying Damage" and "Additional Damage Dice".

Gralamin
2007-08-07, 07:05 PM
How does "Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage" read as "damage that wouldn't happen every turn, and is not extra dice from magic"?


Anyway... This is bizarre.
They didn't just mess up once, they messed up twice in the same way.
They managed to write the same rule twice in one way and twice in another.
I'm honestly just gonna go with the rule as written under "Multiplying Damage" and "Additional Damage Dice".

Thats my idea of what its supposed to mean, though the way its worded makes it seemingly impossible to know for sure (Its also How I'll be houseruling it).

Aximili
2007-08-07, 07:09 PM
Thats my idea of what its supposed to mean, though the way its worded makes it seemingly impossible to know for sure (Its also How I'll be houseruling it).

Yeah, houserulling seems like the only answer =/
If only I had a PHB to check if it's a SRD mistake.

Gralamin
2007-08-07, 07:17 PM
Yeah, houserulling seems like the only answer =/
If only I had a PHB to check if it's a SRD mistake.

I'm gonna take a look in mine, but I better check the Errata first (as that overrides the PHB).

Errata is clean, on to PHB.

Actions in Combat, Page 140 of the PHB Gives two examples of what isn't allowed: sneak attack, and flaming sword damage.

Weapons, Page 114 also gives the flaming sword and sneak attack examples, But continues to say the exact same thing.

Combat Statistics Page 134 states dice as usual, and gives the same two examples. The full example it gives states that strength would be included.

Magic Weapon section of the DM has it appear TWICE.
1st on page 221, is the exact same as Additional Damage Dice.
2nd on page 222, under Magic Weapons and Critical hits, it explains how to use special abilities with it. It saids basically the same thing as the srd on this (Copy pasted from the SRD)

Magic Weapons and Critical Hits

Some weapon qualities and some specific weapons have an extra effect on a critical hit. This special effect functions against creatures not subject to critical hits, such as undead, elementals, and constructs. When fighting against such creatures, roll for critical hits as you would against humanoids or any other creature subject to critical hits. On a successful critical roll, apply the special effect, but do not multiply the weapon’s regular damage.

Ashlan
2007-08-07, 08:43 PM
This is why quoting from a 3rd party source (d20srd.org is not the official Wizards SRD, http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35 is) is a bad idea. Its spelled out correctly here.


Multiplying Damage: Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results. Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage.
Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied.


Ash

Jasdoif
2007-08-07, 08:52 PM
This is why quoting from a 3rd party source (d20srd.org is not the official Wizards SRD, http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35 is) is a bad idea. Its spelled out correctly here....and everything else that's been quoted from d20srd.org is also present in the official SRD. Not much help there.

Gralamin
2007-08-07, 09:00 PM
This is why quoting from a 3rd party source (d20srd.org is not the official Wizards SRD, http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35 is) is a bad idea. Its spelled out correctly here.



Ash

Notice that quote is already above?
The fact is, the rules aren't clear.

Aximili
2007-08-07, 09:09 PM
Very clear actually, clearly contradicting.:smalltongue:

Person_Man
2007-08-08, 08:19 AM
FYI, trying to improve your crit ability is almost always a poor investment. When you do the full math, it really doesn't rasie your average damage very much. A Scabbard of Keen Edges is cheap and useful. But beyond that, you're probably just wasting feats and gold.

Spending feats on any static bonus (like Weapon Specialization) is a phenominally bad idea. Static feats never scale (duh), and thus are clearly less useful then feats that do scale.

Zherog
2007-08-08, 09:24 AM
From the 3.0 FAQ:


What bonuses get multiplied when a character confirms a critical hit? Suppose a 10th-level barbarian with a Strength score of 18 confirms a critical hit while raging and using a +3 greataxe and a maximum Power Attack. How much damage does the barbarian deal? Can you even use the Power Attack feat while raging? What if the character is a paladin using the smite evil ability, a fighter with Weapon Specialization, or a rogue using a sneak attack?

It’s easiest to think of a confirmed critical hit as a number of hits equal to the weapon’s critical damage multiplier. The example character is using a greataxe, which has a critical multiplier of x3, so the damage for a confirmed critical is just like the damage for hitting the foe three times. The only damage that is not multiplied in this way is damage expressed in extra dice, such as for a rogue’s sneak attack (see page 123 in the Player’s Handbook).

The example character has a base attack bonus of +10, so the damage bonus for a “maximum power attack” is +10. (Yes, you can use Power Attack while raging. In fact, you can use just about any feat except Expertise while raging; see the section on rage in the barbarian class description in the Players’ Handbook.) The character’s Strength score increases to 22 while he rages, giving him a +6 damage bonus for Strength, which increases to +9 because a greataxe is a two-handed weapon. The greataxe’s +3 enhancement bonus also applies to damage, so the character’s total damage from one hit with the greataxe is 1d12+22 (10+9+3). A confirmed critical hit makes the damage 3d12+66, just as if you had rolled 1d12+22 three times.

As noted earlier, any damage expressed in extra points of damage is multiplied with a confirmed critical hit, so the extradamage from the smite evil ability or the Weapon Specialization feat is also multiplied. But damage expressed as extra dice does not increase, so a rogue doesn’t roll any extra sneak attack damage dice for a confirmed critical hit. However, some magic weapons that deal extra dice of damage do deal some extra damage on a confirmed critical hit, as noted in their descriptions. This ability is a special feature of these weapons.

You do not multiply damage that has already been multiplied. If the example character were striking a foe for double damage already, you would apply the extra (“doubled”) damage only once to the critical damage. For example, suppose the sample barbarian above is an azer, who deals fire damage along with his greataxe attack. The character’s total damage from one hit with the greataxe is 1d12+23 (10+9+3+1 fire). A confirmed critical hit would make the damage 3d12+69, just as if you had rolled 1d12+23 three times. But if the azer attacks a creature with the cold subtype, the fire damage is doubled, so the base damage for the attack is 1d12+24 (10+9+3+2 fire). The doubled damage is not applied to a confirmed critical hit; instead the total damage becomes 3d12+70 (1d12+23 three times, plus one extra point for the “doubled” fire damage).

Sharp readers may notice that two-handed weapons by their nature deal “multiplied” damage (Strength bonus x1.5), but this is not a true damage multiplier in the sense that the term is used in the D&D game. Thus, the extra damage from a two-handed weapon is multiplied for a confirmed critical hit.

(emphasis mine)

The rules about criticals themselves have not changed, so this FAQ ruling still applies.