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Scotty
2007-08-07, 07:51 PM
I'm fairly new to D&D and dont have a lot of experience with developing optimized characters. We're starting a new campaign with 3rd lvl characters and I wanted to play a class from the ToB. Since the party was short a solid tank...i opted for the Warblade. I was initially going to use some type of giant from the MM, but after looking further, I decided on the Minotaur.

I plan to dual wield Greataxe's, specialize in the Tiger Claw dicipline and then take the Bloodclaw Master PrC.

Does this sound like something that will work well? I'm basiclly looking for insane amounts of damage. I think i've gone the right route, but i wanted some advise from someone with more xp than I have.

The Minotaur is a +2 LA...here are the stats from the MM.
+8 STR
+4 CON
-4 INT
-2 CHA

FORT +2
REF +5
WILL +5

+5 Natural Armor Bonus

6d8HD BAB+6

I havent actually "rolled" him up yet, but if anyone could give me some pointers and LIMFAC's to look out for I would appreciate it. If I didnt give enough info let me know...i'll get what i can. BTW...All books are fair game.

Hamster_Ninja
2007-08-07, 08:10 PM
The big problem is that your character is illegal. Minotaurs start with 6 racial hit dice and two LA, meaning your first character level would be at 9th.

Jasdoif
2007-08-07, 08:17 PM
The big problem is that your character is illegal. Minotaurs start with 6 racial hit dice and two LA, meaning your first character level would be at 9th.Yeah, illegal character's the biggie.

You might be interested in the minotaur monster class (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030202), which wraps the racial hit dice and level adjustment into a class progression so you can play a minotaur in the lower levels.

Scotty
2007-08-07, 08:20 PM
Thanks for the reply...I feel like a dumb@ss now. My buddy and I were talking (he has spent more time playing than me, but still pretty new), it seemed like this was going to be way overpowed...at least at the lower levels. For whatever reason...my DM has bought off on it. If you could forgive my ignorance...how exactly does making a character with a LA from the MM work?

Scotty
2007-08-07, 08:21 PM
Yeah, illegal character's the biggie.

You might be interested in the minotaur monster class (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030202), which wraps the racial hit dice and level adjustment into a class progression so you can play a minotaur in the lower levels.


Thanks for the link...I cant check it here since i'm at work and its filtered, but I'll definatley give it a look when i get home.

Gralamin
2007-08-07, 08:25 PM
First of all, LA are the ultimate dead levels, you gain nothing for them.
Second, The Racial hit dice don't give you much.
Third, Monstrous characters are almost always weaker then Normal characters (The exception being a few things, like the mindflayer, who goes into illithid Savant [If you eat somethings brain, you steal their abilities])

Jasdoif
2007-08-07, 08:38 PM
how exactly does making a character with a LA from the MM work?Basically, LA is like levels that you don't get anything for.

Let's take an easy example...a hobgoblin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hobgoblin.htm) has LA +1 and a single racial hit die. Like anything with a single racial hit die, having a class level replaces that racial hit die, so we won't worry about it.

So, let's say we have a hobgoblin warblade 5. It's effectively a 6th-level character: It has all the class abilities of a level 5 warblade, plus the level adjustment. It keeps the ability score adjustments of a hobgoblin (+2 Dex and +2 Con without any penalties). It has enough XP for a 6th-level character, and it needs enough XP for 7th level before it can take its sixth level of warblade (or multiclass, or whatever).

It's easiest to just think of level adjustment as levels that you don't get anything for. No hit dice, no BAB or saves, no skill points, nothing. They represent "paying" for having better then average racial features or ability score adjustments, although they become more and more of a burden as you get into the higher levels.

ForzaFiori
2007-08-07, 08:44 PM
In addition to your LA, you also have to add the HD you gain from a monster (if the monster has more than 1 HD) that number (LA+HD) is added to your class level to figure out what level your character is equal to.
take the minitaur. it has a +2 LA, and 6 HD. that means that it is 8 levels more powerful than a regular person, and so once it takes it's first class level, it is a 9th level character (2 LA + 6HD + 1 Class = 9th level)

if your monster has only 1 racial HD, then you lose that HD to take your first class

Scotty
2007-08-07, 08:55 PM
Jasdoif and mf11...thanks for your replys. I'll bring all of this up with my DM and hopefully we'll be able to work something out. While it may be more of a burden than its worth, I think i'm still going to give it a try...I think it will add a lot of flavor to the character/campaign and be good for rp. Thanks again for your help.

-Scotty.


**edit**
I'll keep an eye on this thread if anyone else has any suggestions...Thanks in advance.

RTGoodman
2007-08-07, 11:10 PM
If you'd still like to play a minotaur without the horrible LA and Racial HD, check out the Dragonlance Campaign Setting's Krynn Minotaurs. I haven't playing anything to do with Dragonlance, but apparently these minotaurs are pretty common, and thus were powered down to make them playable from first level. An older DM houseruled them into a Forgotten Realms campaign, and I almost played one (but decided against it).

I think they have something like:
-Medium size, base speed 30 feet, etc.
-Ability mods: +4 Str, -2 Dex, -2 Int, -2 Cha
-Bonus to Natural Armor (+2, I think, but I'm not sure)
-Bonuses to Intimidate, Use Rope, and another skill or two
-They can take the Scent special ability as a feat
-Natural weapon (Gore) that does like 1d6 or 1d8 +1 1/2 Str mod damage
-Favored Class: Fighter

If you can find the Dragonlance campaign setting, it'll be in there (and probably somewhere online). And someone will probably correct me within the next little while anyway.

Xefas
2007-08-08, 08:54 AM
If you'd still like to play a minotaur without the horrible LA and Racial HD, check out the Dragonlance Campaign Setting's Krynn Minotaurs. I haven't playing anything to do with Dragonlance, but apparently these minotaurs are pretty common, and thus were powered down to make them playable from first level. An older DM houseruled them into a Forgotten Realms campaign, and I almost played one (but decided against it).

I think they have something like:
-Medium size, base speed 30 feet, etc.
-Ability mods: +4 Str, -2 Dex, -2 Int, -2 Cha
-Bonus to Natural Armor (+2, I think, but I'm not sure)
-Bonuses to Intimidate, Use Rope, and another skill or two
-They can take the Scent special ability as a feat
-Natural weapon (Gore) that does like 1d6 or 1d8 +1 1/2 Str mod damage
-Favored Class: Fighter

If you can find the Dragonlance campaign setting, it'll be in there (and probably somewhere online). And someone will probably correct me within the next little while anyway.

The skills bonuses are +2 to Intimidate, Swim, and Use Rope. The gore does 1d6 or 2d6 on a charge (both cases +1.5str modifier).

Pretty good for a warblade. The -int is kinda annoying, but no LA is fantastic. Plus, there are a couple maneuvers that require charging, so the gore might come in handy =)

Swooper
2007-08-08, 09:17 AM
...a hobgoblin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hobgoblin.htm) has LA +1 and a single racial hit die. Like anything with a single racial hit die, having a class level replaces that racial hit die, so we won't worry about it.
A question of definition really, but that "racial hit die" is really the HD gained from one level of Warrior. The stats given in the link you provided specify the stats for a 1st level Hobgoblin Warrior, not a classless Hobgoblin. In the same way that there can't exist a classless elf, dwarf or human in D&D, classless [insert racial HD-less humanoid here] don't exist either. If that Hobgoblin had a racial hit die, it'd have 2d8+4 HP.

The skills bonuses are +2 to Intimidate, Swim, and Use Rope.
Ok, I know Krynnish Minotaurs are supposed to be sailors and all that, but how easy can it be to swim with those hoofs, and the horns? :smallconfused:

geez3r
2007-08-08, 09:40 AM
I plan to dual wield Greataxe's, specialize in the Tiger Claw dicipline and then take the Bloodclaw Master PrC

I would like to point out that you cannot dual weild greataxes, at all. Greataxes are 2 handed weapons and as such, 1 greataxe requires both hands to use properly. Unless your DM houserules it, this is not allowable, and if it was, it would probably have massive penalties to your attack rolls. Just a heads up. I would recommend a battle axe in it's place for your main hand.

With a minotaur Int penalty you can't take full advantage of some of a warblade's special abilities, but it really isn't something worth worrying about.

Just make sure you keep your Jump skill maxed out and you'll be fine. I wish you the best of luck.

Tyger
2007-08-08, 09:42 AM
Ok, I know Krynnish Minotaurs are supposed to be sailors and all that, but how easy can it be to swim with those hoofs, and the horns? :smallconfused:

Horses and cattle are actually really good swimmers. But that's an aside.

The Minotaur race of Krynn sounds like just what the doctor ordered for your use. You get all the flavour and none of the pain. The huge LA adjustment makes Minotaurs tough to play in regular games. Now, that said, one of my players played a Minotaur fighter in a one-shot recently (level 12 characters) and he had a blast. His BAB was as good as a human fighter of comparable level, and the size and strength bonus really can pay off if you plan it right. Feats like Large & in Charge, Shocktrooper and the like really play out nicely on these huge strength characters.

Lapak
2007-08-08, 09:56 AM
Ok, I know Krynnish Minotaurs are supposed to be sailors and all that, but how easy can it be to swim with those hoofs, and the horns? :smallconfused:Unless I am mistaken, horn actually floats. I'm not 100% certain, but I think so.

Leon
2007-08-08, 10:01 AM
I'm fairly new to D&D and dont have a lot of experience with developing optimized characters. .

Dont worry about the O word, read the wise words of Mike_G in my sig


I would like to point out that you cannot dual weild greataxes, at all. Greataxes are 2 handed weapons and as such, 1 greataxe requires both hands to use properly.

-2 Attack Penalty to use a Weapon not sized for you, Full BAB and a High Str shrug that off easy

FireSpark
2007-08-08, 10:10 AM
I would like to point out that you cannot dual weild greataxes, at all. Greataxes are 2 handed weapons and as such, 1 greataxe requires both hands to use properly. Unless your DM houserules it, this is not allowable, and if it was, it would probably have massive penalties to your attack rolls. Just a heads up. I would recommend a battle axe in it's place for your main hand.

With a minotaur Int penalty you can't take full advantage of some of a warblade's special abilities, but it really isn't something worth worrying about.

Just make sure you keep your Jump skill maxed out and you'll be fine. I wish you the best of luck.

First possibility, Scotty here has stated that he is still new to the whole thing and may not have understood that in what little time he hwas had to read the rulebooks.

Secondly, as a minotaur (and thus large) you could wield two large battle-axes (which are essentially greataxes, just with the damage dice calculated differently, 1d12 v. 2d6), though he could also dual-wield two medium great axes, though this would incur a slight size penalty (a -2 iirc).

Finally, he could also decide to whip out the monkey grip feat, and wield two huge battle axes (again, essentially two large great axes, 3d6 either way) whilst only taking a -2 penalty on attack rolls. Not too shabby actually.

EDIT: Erk! I've been simu'd! You never see those pesky ninjas coming, do ya?

Swooper
2007-08-08, 10:16 AM
Unless I am mistaken, horn actually floats. I'm not 100% certain, but I think so.
I can see that, but they're not exactly aerodynamic, are they? :smalltongue:

Tyger
2007-08-08, 10:19 AM
I can see that, but they're not exactly aerodynamic, are they? :smalltongue:

Neither is a moose, and those buggers swim like a fish! Damned Canadian trivia. :)

Darrin
2007-08-08, 10:26 AM
-2 Attack Penalty to use a Weapon not sized for you, Full BAB and a High Str shrug that off easy

Ugh. More weapon size headaches. I assume you mean a large creature wielding two great-axes sized for a medium character... in which case, they would get a -2 attack penalty. But neither would be considered light weapons, and you'd have at least a -4 penalty on top of that.

You could avoid the -2 size penalty with two large-sized battleaxes (2d6 damage instead of 1d12, same as a medium-sized greatsword) and the Oversize TWF feat. Or spend another feat for EWP: Dwarven Waraxe (2d8 damage, same as a fullblade, not bad for only -2 to hit).

Or if you can't take Oversize TWF, then a double large-sized handaxes would both be light weapons to a large creature (1d8 damage, essentialy a medium-sized battleaxe).

Swooper
2007-08-08, 10:40 AM
Neither is a moose, and those buggers swim like a fish! Damned Canadian trivia. :)
Really? Damn.


So you're a Canadian, huh? What's goin' on, eh? (http://http://www.nata2.info/d/flash/f/endofworld.swf)

Stephen_E
2007-08-08, 11:06 AM
Neither is a moose, and those buggers swim like a fish! Damned Canadian trivia. :)

Cat Trivia, Tigers are just as good. Crocodiles politely ignore swimming Tigers.

Stephen

Leliel
2007-08-08, 11:13 AM
Ummm....This is way off topic, but could somebody explain where the "New Topic" is?:smallconfused:

EDIT:Nevermind. I just found it.:smallredface:

PinkysBrain
2007-08-08, 11:18 AM
I plan to dual wield Greataxe'sYou are dumping int, so I guess you could explain that in character :p

Does this sound like something that will work well?
No.

I'm basically looking for insane amounts of damage.
Then you are looking in the wrong places ;) Monter races and TWF have more downsides than upsides, which is not a problem in isolation. You could make a very decent character with either a minotaur or with TWF + greataxes, but you really have to give it a good try.

With enough cheese you can make just about anything work, but your present character is really pushing it ... he would need an awful lot of cheese.

Leon
2007-08-08, 11:24 AM
Insane amounts of Damage is the Domain of the Two handed weapon (and its assosiated feats)

Stephen_E
2007-08-08, 11:33 AM
I'm not familiar with the TOB but one place you may want to look for boosting Monster characters is Weapon Style feats from Comp Warrior.

The reason they're useful is that there are a couple of styles that do things based on a Fort save 10 + character lev + Str bonus.
The easiest to access feat wise is the 3 Mountains style which requires 4 feats and if you hit your target twice with a Mace, Morningstar or Hv Mace they must make a save or be nauseated (works against anything that isn't immune to fort saves). Nauseated creatures can only do non-spellcasting free actions and a single move action (no 5' steps).

You might see if your DM might give you one or two of the weaker feats for a weapon style as bonus Minotaur feats, also look at LA buyback. It's in the SRD/OGL stuff. The other posters are right in that Racial HD suck.

Stephen

Arbitrarity
2007-08-08, 11:39 AM
Classic shock-trooper/Leap attack with pouncing charge (Tiger Claw 5) works pretty well, especially in a stance like Leading the Charge. That's (StrX1.5+weapon(and various)+Initiator Level+BAB*3)*attacks. Throw in some sort of boost, whether to attacks or damage, and you have some nice DD.

Darrin
2007-08-08, 12:06 PM
Classic shock-trooper/Leap attack with pouncing charge (Tiger Claw 5) works pretty well, especially in a stance like Leading the Charge. That's (StrX1.5+weapon(and various)+Initiator Level+BAB*3)*attacks. Throw in some sort of boost, whether to attacks or damage, and you have some nice DD.

Pouncing Charge doesn't kick in until Warblade 9... more likely later (12th level) if you're multiclassing.

If you dip Barbarian for Pounce (which doesn't need to be recovered) and maybe some Fighter for bonus feats, you can pull off a pouncing charge with shock trooper and leap attack at level 6. With Sudden Leap (Tiger Claw 1), you can do it two rounds in a row, one round of full attack to recover, and then do it again.

Arbitrarity
2007-08-08, 12:12 PM
But.. CChamp barbarian Lion Totem is so cheesy!

Jasdoif
2007-08-08, 12:46 PM
A question of definition really, but that "racial hit die" is really the HD gained from one level of Warrior. The stats given in the link you provided specify the stats for a 1st level Hobgoblin Warrior, not a classless Hobgoblin. In the same way that there can't exist a classless elf, dwarf or human in D&D, classless [insert racial HD-less humanoid here] don't exist either. If that Hobgoblin had a racial hit die, it'd have 2d8+4 HP.Thing is, single RHD creatures do exist. And they do replace their single racial hit die if they ever get a class level.

Also, I forgot.

Behold_the_Void
2007-08-08, 01:08 PM
That's... odd that Krynn minotaur have an intelligence penalty. They're usually portrayed as fairly intelligent creatures with strong tactical thinking skills. I'd definitely go with that though.

Zincorium
2007-08-08, 02:48 PM
Finally, he could also decide to whip out the monkey grip feat, and wield two huge battle axes (again, essentially two large great axes, 3d6 either way) whilst only taking a -2 penalty on attack rolls. Not too shabby actually.

Actually, no. He can't. 90% of people who suggest taking monkey grip apparently haven't read the actual text of the feat and are relying on overly optimistic second-hand accounts of what it does.

You can't use monkey grip with off hand weapons. Ever. Or double weapons. Or ranged weapons. And it gives a -2 attack penalty alongside any penalties for using two weapon fighting.

And frankly, TWF is a bad choice for high strength characters, period. You half the bonus for your off hand, rounding down, you are required to have a fairly high dex to get the feats at all, and when you make single attacks like a charge or attack of opportunity you don't even get the off hand attack for greater damage.

Edit: Somehow missed the bloodclaw master prestige class. Not so bad then.

Behold_the_Void
2007-08-08, 02:49 PM
Actually, no. He can't. 90% of people who suggest taking monkey grip apparently haven't read the actual text of the feat and are relying on overly optimistic second-hand accounts of what it does.

You can't use monkey grip with off hand weapons. Ever. Or double weapons. Or ranged weapons. And it gives a -2 attack penalty alongside any penalties for using two weapon fighting.

And frankly, TWF is a bad choice for high strength characters, period. You half the bonus for your off hand, rounding down, you are required to have a fairly high dex to get the feats at all, and when you make single attacks like a charge or attack of opportunity you don't even get the off hand attack for greater damage.

The prestige class he's looking at negates the halved strength bonus and the maneuvers he gets give him some nice TWF options.

Abstruse
2007-08-08, 02:56 PM
The Minotaur is a +2 LA...here are the stats from the MM.
+8 STR
+4 CON
-4 INT
-2 CHA

Putting aside the illegality of a straight-up minotaur due to the racial hit dice, which has already been mentioned by more than one person, a minotaur warblade is a spectacularly bad idea.

Why?

Just look at that -4 to INT. Many of a warblade's special abilities are dependent upon INT, and a -4 makes them spectacularly crippled at the stuff the warblade's meant to be good at. Crusader might be better, even with the CHA hit... and swordsage might be best, given its dependence on WIS rather than INT or CHA.

Scotty
2007-08-08, 03:53 PM
I would like to point out that you cannot dual weild greataxes, at all. Greataxes are 2 handed weapons and as such, 1 greataxe requires both hands to use properly. Unless your DM houserules it, this is not allowable, and if it was, it would probably have massive penalties to your attack rolls. Just a heads up. I would recommend a battle axe in it's place for your main hand.

With a minotaur Int penalty you can't take full advantage of some of a warblade's special abilities, but it really isn't something worth worrying about.

Just make sure you keep your Jump skill maxed out and you'll be fine. I wish you the best of luck.

Thanks for your input...all you guys are a big help. I have a question though...if the Minotaur is a size category large and the weapons are medium...shouldn't I be able to wield them with one hand?

*edit* question already answered...you guys are the heat.

Zincorium
2007-08-08, 04:01 PM
Thanks for your input...all you guys are a big help. I have a question though...if the Minotaur is a size category large and the weapons are medium...shouldn't I be able to wield them with one hand?

With a -2 penalty, yes.

Honestly, I'd say go for the large size handaxes instead. Yes, the base damage will be lower, but that isn't where most of your damage is going to be coming from anyway, and the penalty to hit will cause you to do less damage overall. You also don't have to take a -4 or spend a feat on oversize two weapon fighting.

MrNexx
2007-08-08, 07:41 PM
That's... odd that Krynn minotaur have an intelligence penalty. They're usually portrayed as fairly intelligent creatures with strong tactical thinking skills. I'd definitely go with that though.

They're wily... no problem with wisdom, and an intelligence penalty doesn't mean that the average minotaur is a drooling idiot. They've got a 8 to 9 intelligence... slightly slower than humans, but many people seem to think that a -2 intelligence means they can't tie their bracers on without instructions.

Scotty
2007-08-08, 07:45 PM
They're wily... no problem with wisdom, and an intelligence penalty doesn't mean that the average minotaur is a drooling idiot. They've got a 8 to 9 intelligence... slightly slower than humans, but many people seem to think that a -2 intelligence means they can't tie their bracers on without instructions.


How much is a -2 to INT going to affect a Warblade? Is it to the point that I wouldn't be able to take full advantage of the class features?

Jasdoif
2007-08-08, 08:09 PM
How much is a -2 to INT going to affect a Warblade? Is it to the point that I wouldn't be able to take full advantage of the class features?Well, the warblade has a bunch of class features that give you a bonus equal to your Intelligence bonus on various rolls. I wouldn't worry about it though; except for the Reflex saves you get your much higher Strength modifier on the same rolls, more then making up the difference.

MrNexx
2007-08-08, 08:13 PM
How much is a -2 to INT going to affect a Warblade? Is it to the point that I wouldn't be able to take full advantage of the class features?

No clue. Haven't read Bo9S.

AslanCross
2007-08-08, 08:40 PM
How much is a -2 to INT going to affect a Warblade? Is it to the point that I wouldn't be able to take full advantage of the class features?

Depends how high you roll your INT in the first place. -2 INT will definitely lower whatever bonus you have by 1, IF you have a bonus in the first place. Just make sure you don't have penalties to begin with.

To the point, I would rather have high INT (16+) for a Warblade. Its class features that use INT are for rather specific situations, but IMO a good bonus when it counts is much better than not being able to use the class features at all.

Rachel Lorelei
2007-08-08, 08:50 PM
Like someone said, besides Reflex saves, everything you get your INT bonus to you get your STR bonus to also. If a race gives you more strength than it takes away intelligence, that's a net bonus for the Warblade... even if it means you don't get to use those class features at all (because you're still getting a bonus of equal size or bigger to the things those class features are for).

Scotty
2007-08-08, 09:25 PM
Just wanted to take the time to say thanks to everyone thats given me feedback on this build...very educational. Good forum with good folks. Thanks.