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Hackulator
2017-07-22, 01:07 PM
So after listening to various people's opinions, here is my fix for the fighter class. Now, to be clear, it still does even come close to matching high tier classes, however, I think it would put the class firmly in the mid tiers. Most importantly, I think it maintains the idea and thematic of what the fighter is supposed to be.



Fighters are experts of conflict in all its forms. They train and study night and day to be prepared for any encounter.

CHANGES

Skills 6+int/level (x4 at level 1)

Add the following skills to their skill list:

Balance(if you fall, you are bad at fighting), Bluff(bluffing is an important part of conflict), Diplomacy (there is always talking before or after fighting), Escape Artist (if you are tied up, you are bad at fighting), Handle ANimal (train your own horse), Heal (duh, battlefield medicine?), All stealth skills (cause surprise wins fights), All perception skills (see prior), All knowledge skills (know your enemy), Tumble (duh, its the skill used to move around in combat), Use Magic Device (guess what gets used in combat a lot? MAGIC!)

All saving throws are good...because if you fail your will save, you probably lost the fight, and because dodging **** is part of fighting. FIghters train both their minds and bodies for combat.

NEW CLASS FEATURES

(bonus feats and proficiencies unchanged)

Signature Weapon (Ex)-Though any weapon is deadly in the hands of a fighter, most fighters find a single weapon that truly speaks to them. This weapon becomes like an extension of their body and the things they do with it seem almost magical.

At first level a fighter chooses a single type of weapon, such as longsword or warhammer, as their signature weapon. When wielding that type of weapon, the weapon is treated as having a +1 enhancement bonus. At each odd numbered level, this bonus increases by +1 to a maximum of +10 at 19th level. The enhancement bonus cannot increase above +5, however a fighter may use points of enhancement bonus to treat his weapon as though it had certain magical qualities. He may add any of the following abilities by spending the correct amount of enhancement bonus:

Bane(fighter must have at least 5 ranks in the appropriate knowledge skill for the creature type), distance, defending, ghost touch(fighter must have knowledge: religion 5 ranks), Keen, Merciful, Mighty Cleaving, Throwing, Disruption(fighter must have knowledge: religion 5 ranks), Wounding, Speed, Vorpal

(design note: all of these are abilities which do not have an unquestionably magical source. A shocking sword is clearly magical, however a vorpal sword might have just cut your head off without magic. Although these enhancements are treated in all other ways like normal enchanted weapons, including the ability to defeat DR, they are extraordinary abilities due to the fighter’s supreme combat skill as well as knowledge of various types of enemies and thus function even in an AMF. Your signature weapon is a weapon type, not an individual weapon. You can use this power with any weapon of the proper type. Most fighers DO have a weapon which is special to them, but they do not lose their abilities if they lose it.)

With 10 minutes of time spent cleaning, resharpening and practicing with their weapon, a fighter can choose a new set of enhancements for his weapon using the appropriate amount of enhancement bonus for his level.

If a fighter has a magic weapon of his signature weapon type, he may only add his signature weapon ability to that weapon up to a maximum total enhancement bonus of 2 higher than the maximum enhancement bonus for his signature weapon ability.

Example: Johan, a level 9 fighter, uses the warhammer as his signature weapon has a total available Signature Weapon bonus of +5. He finds a +1 flaming shocking warhammer. He could then use his signature weapon bonus to increase the enhancement bonus to +5, making the weapon a +7 weapon in total. Even though he has only used 4 of his 5 points of enhancement, he cannot add the merciful quality to the weapon as that would put it at 3 points of enhancement above his signature weapon bonus.

(design note: the important part of this ability and to an even greater extent the ability below is the fact that the bonuses can be changed. This allows a fighter to adapt to various enemies, something the base fighter has almost no ability to do once his feats have been selected. Simply improving WBL is not enough, as even if you add power, you still do not change the underlying lack of flexibility in the fighter class)

Signature Armor (Ex)-Fighters are trained in the use of various types of armor, but for most, one type truly becomes a second skin.At second level, select one type of armor as your signature armor (regardless of the ability name, you may also choose a shield instead of armor). When you are wearing that type of armor, it is treated as having an enhancement bonus of +1. This bonus increases at by at every even level from then on to a maximum of +10 at level 20. The enhancement bonus may not exceed +5, however the fighter may use points of enhancement bonus to add any of the following magical qualities:

Arrow Catching (projectiles don’t veer, the fighter intercepts them), Arrow Deflection, Bashing, Spell Resistance(requires 5 ranks knowledge: arcana), Light/Medium/Heavy Fortification, Ghost Touch(requires 5 ranks knowledge: religion), Invulnerability, Reflecting

The mechanics for adding enhancement bonus to already magical armor are the same as for weapons.

Additionally the fighter may also add up to 5k gp per point of enhancement bonus worth of special abilities from the following list, to a maximum of 50k gp at level 20. Please note this is IN ADDITION to the enhancement bonus, not a trade. The improved or greater version of any listed ability may also be added if it can be afforded.

Slick, Shadow, Silent Moves, Energy Resistance (any)

There is no limit to adding these abilities to already magical armor, other than the limit of your maximum gp value. You may even add value to already existing special qualities in the above list to improve them.

example:Johan is now 12th level, giving him +6 enhancement and 30k gp of additionals to his signature armor, chainmail. He finds a set of +2 chainmail with Improved Acid Resistance. By adding 24k of his 30k to the improved acid resistance, he may upgrade it to greater acid resistance (greater costs 24k more than improved). He may also add all 6 points of his enhancement bonus, 3 to increase the enhancement to +5 and 3 for special abilities, giving the armor a total bonus of +8.

Palanan
2017-07-22, 01:08 PM
This should probably be moved to the Homebrew subforum.

Karl Aegis
2017-07-22, 03:38 PM
Bigger numbers is not a Fighter fix. Being able to interact with the system in its entirety will get you to Tier 3. Having bigger numbers does not improve your ability to interact with the system.

johnbragg
2017-07-22, 03:47 PM
Bigger numbers is not a Fighter fix. Being able to interact with the system in its entirety will get you to Tier 3. Having bigger numbers does not improve your ability to interact with the system.

But it can get you to Tier 4, which is the de facto goal of a lot of Fighter Fixes. (Otherwise you'd see Barbarian fixes.) Which is why my quickest Fighter Fix is to refluff Barbarian Rage as Combat Focus. Boom, Tier 4 "fighter".

Hackulator
2017-07-22, 03:49 PM
Bigger numbers is not a Fighter fix. Being able to interact with the system in its entirety will get you to Tier 3. Having bigger numbers does not improve your ability to interact with the system.

The increased skill ranks, class skill list, and a couple of the abilities you can add to armor allow for what I think would qualify. At the very least, more skill ranks and UMD in class pretty much do that, if not in a unique way.

SirNibbles
2017-07-22, 04:36 PM
I dislike this because it goes completely against what I've always said the fighter is: a scholar of armed combat who learns a vast number of techniques (Fighter Bonus Feats) through intense study and training, which he then applies while fighting.

Signature Weapon and Signature Armor are both completely contrary to that ideal of a fighter.

Karl Aegis
2017-07-22, 05:33 PM
But it can get you to Tier 4, which is the de facto goal of a lot of Fighter Fixes. (Otherwise you'd see Barbarian fixes.) Which is why my quickest Fighter Fix is to refluff Barbarian Rage as Combat Focus. Boom, Tier 4 "fighter".

That isn't why Barbarian is Tier 4.


The increased skill ranks, class skill list, and a couple of the abilities you can add to armor allow for what I think would qualify. At the very least, more skill ranks and UMD in class pretty much do that, if not in a unique way.

Skills without support is Tier 5: Experts. You need actual class features to be as good as a rogue or a ranger.

If you want a Tier 3-4 Fighter we can build you a Tier 3-4 Fighter. You might be speaking in tongues and flailing your arms around trying to roleplay it correctly, but it will be Tier 3-4.

Hackulator
2017-07-22, 05:46 PM
I dislike this because it goes completely against what I've always said the fighter is: a scholar of armed combat who learns a vast number of techniques (Fighter Bonus Feats) through intense study and training, which he then applies while fighting.

Signature Weapon and Signature Armor are both completely contrary to that ideal of a fighter.

Everything about what I wrote is about being a scholar of armed combat being skilled in a vast number of techniques....The signature weapon and armor are extraordinary abilities, they represent additional abilities in combat which are outside the realm of feats. The reason why using the Bane ability requires 5 ranks in the appropriate knowledge is because it represents knowing an opponent well enough to take advantage of it.

Cosi
2017-07-22, 06:14 PM
The fundamental problems of the Fighter (as it exists in 3e) are twofold. First, it's too narrowly focused on one strategy in combat. Second, it gets virtually nothing to do outside combat. This solves neither of these problems, so why should anyone care? Like, four additional skills is nice, but the Wizard is sitting right there knowing fabricate and detect thoughts.

If you want a quick and dirty Fighter fix, take the Warblade and give it the Artificer's infusion progression.

ben-zayb
2017-07-22, 06:52 PM
I agree to moving this in the Homebrew subforum, where it can comfortably sit right next to the other bazillion attempts at fighter fixes

martixy
2017-07-22, 07:07 PM
a) Whish to homebrew - - - - - >
b) Do we really need another fighter fix?
c) Class tier is defined by breadth, not depth.
d) This does nothing to make the fighter more fun to play. You still only walk up to it and hit it with a stick.
e) So terribly uninspiring.

Goaty14
2017-07-22, 07:27 PM
I would personally use this, yea sure bonus feats are good and represent the studied martial theme, but I think that the increased skills makes up for that, aside from that, it buffs weapons better than the normal fighter (weapon spec. only does +1 dmg)

Grod_The_Giant
2017-07-22, 07:42 PM
Seems decent enough. You could get a bit more punch with access to the MiC-- there's some fun new properties in there. The Fighter is already right on the border of T4 and T5, and this gives enough added punch and flexibility to push you over the edge.

If you want to go a bit farther-- which I think you very much could-- I suggest adding the ability to reduce your ACP; that'll allow even heavy-armor fighters to make use of the stealth and tumble-type skills you've added. Maybe also a Bardic Knowledge type ability (to go farther in the "identifying what you're fighting" bit).

Baby Gary
2017-07-22, 09:13 PM
Seems decent enough. You could get a bit more punch with access to the MiC-- there's some fun new properties in there. The Fighter is already right on the border of T4 and T5, and this gives enough added punch and flexibility to push you over the edge.

If you want to go a bit farther-- which I think you very much could-- I suggest adding the ability to reduce your ACP; that'll allow even heavy-armor fighters to make use of the stealth and tumble-type skills you've added. Maybe also a Bardic Knowledge type ability (to go farther in the "identifying what you're fighting" bit).

I second this.

I have some other ideas of what I think is needed. As some people have already said, the fighter needs more out of combat utility. More skills and skill points can help but I think that there is more that is needed.

One idea that I have is that you get a bonus to intimidate equal to your weapon enchantment bonus (maybe x2)

Another is giving them a way to get a disguise bonus when trying to act like any type of solider.

You could also give them some type of self healing. Maybe an ability like the paladins lay on hands but that only works on himself and the pool equals fighter level * Con mod (or Fighter level * 3, or [fighter level + Con mod] * 3)

they could have DR or SR that either scales with class level or with armor AC bonus (or type)

a way to reduce and/or mitigate ACP

These are just the things that have popped into my head, with further thought I could come up with more ideas

Cosi
2017-07-22, 09:21 PM
I don't really see the point of any Fighter fix that is not at least as good as the Warblade, and once you get to as good as the Warblade, why not start from the damn Warblade?

Like, what does the Fighter do other than "be named Fighter" that the Warblade doesn't also do as well or better?

Grod_The_Giant
2017-07-22, 09:37 PM
I don't really see the point of any Fighter fix that is not at least as good as the Warblade, and once you get to as good as the Warblade, why not start from the damn Warblade?

Like, what does the Fighter do other than "be named Fighter" that the Warblade doesn't also do as well or better?
Be simple to play? Not have a very high floor that invalidates most non-ToB classes? Avoid the anti-ToB bias that crops up fairly regularly?

Hackulator
2017-07-22, 09:54 PM
Seems decent enough. You could get a bit more punch with access to the MiC-- there's some fun new properties in there. The Fighter is already right on the border of T4 and T5, and this gives enough added punch and flexibility to push you over the edge.

If you want to go a bit farther-- which I think you very much could-- I suggest adding the ability to reduce your ACP; that'll allow even heavy-armor fighters to make use of the stealth and tumble-type skills you've added. Maybe also a Bardic Knowledge type ability (to go farther in the "identifying what you're fighting" bit).

Any ability that could reasonably function nonmagically should be added to this class feature, I simply only looked at the SRD for this post.

I considered that and for now did not include it because I wanted to promote build variability, giving some reason for a fighter to possibly choose lighter armor. One good option would be to reduce ACP/increase max dex bonus, and then give additional features which provided buffs in lighter armor. Maybe you act as though hasted in light armor? Not sure what to do for medium.


I don't really see the point of any Fighter fix that is not at least as good as the Warblade, and once you get to as good as the Warblade, why not start from the damn Warblade?

Like, what does the Fighter do other than "be named Fighter" that the Warblade doesn't also do as well or better?

This version of the fighter is more in line with the ToB classes without the Wuxia aspect, which might not go with the characters people want to play.

Manyasone
2017-07-23, 09:31 AM
Any ability that could reasonably function nonmagically should be added to this class feature, I simply only looked at the SRD for this post.

I considered that and for now did not include it because I wanted to promote build variability, giving some reason for a fighter to possibly choose lighter armor. One good option would be to reduce ACP/increase max dex bonus, and then give additional features which provided buffs in lighter armor. Maybe you act as though hasted in light armor? Not sure what to do for medium.



This version of the fighter is more in line with the ToB classes without the Wuxia aspect, which might not go with the characters people want to play.

ToB as wuxia... I am really getting tired of always reading that. Plenty of Western legends contain heroes larger than life. Especially with warblades. And swordsages can easily be based upon old Arabic legends

Krazzman
2017-07-23, 10:01 AM
This version of the fighter is more in line with the ToB classes without the Wuxia aspect, which might not go with the characters people want to play.

You mean the "Anime" type stuff like flying around, shooting lasers and stuff while shouting your special power names? Yeah... no. The system is basically done. I wouldn't even join a 3.5 game without ToB/MoI/Dragon Magic nowadays.


Be simple to play? Not have a very high floor that invalidates most non-ToB classes? Avoid the anti-ToB bias that crops up fairly regularly?

I don't think a fighter is "simple". Quite the contrary as you seem to need to divulge endless amounts of diving into obscure splatbooks to make a fighter even function half-way decent. I played 3.5 for roughly 6 years and even though we had a lot of splatbooks 90% of fighter advice wasn't viable for our games. So why should I need to do that when I just can pick ToB and be done with it?


ToB as wuxia... I am really getting tired of always reading that. Plenty of Western legends contain heroes larger than life. Especially with warblades. And swordsages can easily be based upon old Arabic legends

Yes, even considering that most "Anime"(I know it's a media, like book and not a genre)/"wuxia" tropes are already filled with non-ToB stuff. Wu Jen, spells and so on...

About the "Fix" at hand. I personally believe it falls short. It makes the same mistake as Paizo did. You basically just took the Magus's Arcane Pool ability to quickenchant his weapons and called it a Signature Weapon and made an Armor one too.

I personally think Martial Flexibility of Pathfinder's Brawler is a far better way of fixing the fighter. Cherry picking from Warblades Adaptive Weapons thingy (currently away from books, sry) as well as Martial Flexibility and a look at the Martial Traditions from PoW.

Giving the fighter Martial Flexibility, Bravery and giving Fighters the chance to pick a Weapon Group at level 1 and every few levels, which have a corrensponding Skill and gives you certain benefits Out of Combat. Both featuring the Versatility of a Man-at-Arms as well as letting him specialise into something that isn't just adding numbers to an already bland base. And even then I am not sure if it would be a good fix.

Mordaedil
2017-07-23, 10:51 AM
I dislike this because it goes completely against what I've always said the fighter is: a scholar of armed combat who learns a vast number of techniques (Fighter Bonus Feats) through intense study and training, which he then applies while fighting.

Signature Weapon and Signature Armor are both completely contrary to that ideal of a fighter.

I think I'd rather like features like melee weapon mastery being granted for free at certain levels to be more in keeping with the fighter, as well as the ability to pick tactical feats without their prerequisite feats would add a lot to the fighter.

logic_error
2017-07-23, 12:12 PM
My fix:

All fighter feats are trained at level 1. Only how many you can have in an adventuring day is determined every morning, like wizards. Also, some trained feats are locked behind feat combo requirements (you can only have Power attack associated feats if you 'prepared' power attack) and ability modifiers.

Florian
2017-07-23, 12:32 PM
ToB as wuxia... I am really getting tired of always reading that. Plenty of Western legends contain heroes larger than life. Especially with warblades. And swordsages can easily be based upon old Arabic legends

I think you misunderstand the underlying critique re: ToB as Wuxia.

Itīs not like anyone is against playing a larger than life hero, itīs the "feel" of the ToB mechanics.
Itīs like, nothing against learning a stance, boost or strike, but on a "martial"-themed class, that thing should be "always on", or "always available", in contrast to having to ready a certain number of them and using a refresh mechanic. That is the "Wuxia" thing thatīs breaking with the verisimilitude.
Heck, in comparision, I actually would prefer a 1d4+1 cool down mechanic like dragon breath has.

Hackulator
2017-07-23, 12:38 PM
I think you misunderstand the underlying critique re: ToB as Wuxia.

Itīs not like anyone is against playing a larger than life hero, itīs the "feel" of the ToB mechanics.
Itīs like, nothing against learning a stance, boost or strike, but on a "martial"-themed class, that thing should be "always on", or "always available", in contrast to having to ready a certain number of them and using a refresh mechanic. That is the "Wuxia" thing thatīs breaking with the verisimilitude.
Heck, in comparision, I actually would prefer a 1d4+1 cool down mechanic like dragon breath has.

Yeah that's a big part of it. The whole feel of "NOW I'LL USE MY STONE DRAGON'S FURY ATTACK" is very anime/wuxia. Please note I don't have a problem with that and I enjoy playing classes from that book, but it doesn't fit every martial character.

Flickerdart
2017-07-23, 12:41 PM
Yeah that's a big part of it. The whole feel of "NOW I'LL USE MY STONE DRAGON'S FURY ATTACK" is very anime/wuxia. Please note I don't have a problem with that and I enjoy playing classes from that book, but it doesn't fit every martial character.

Inigo Montoya: You are using Bonetti’s Defense against me, ah?
Man in Black: I thought it fitting considering the rocky terrain.
Inigo: Naturally, you must suspect me to attack with Capa Ferro?
Man in Black: Naturally, but I find that Thibault cancels out Capa Ferro. Don’t you?
Inigo: Unless the enemy has studied his Agrippa… which I have.

Hackulator
2017-07-23, 12:52 PM
Inigo Montoya: You are using Bonetti’s Defense against me, ah?
Man in Black: I thought it fitting considering the rocky terrain.
Inigo: Naturally, you must suspect me to attack with Capa Ferro?
Man in Black: Naturally, but I find that Thibault cancels out Capa Ferro. Don’t you?
Inigo: Unless the enemy has studied his Agrippa… which I have.

All of those are great masters whose opinions on fighting they have studied, not discrete attacks or maneuvers. The real world basis for that scene is described here (https://combativecorner.wordpress.com/2010/11/11/fencing-language-in-the-princess-bride/).

However, I am still willing to concede your example is appropriate. That doesn't change the fact that such things are far more common in anime/wuxia and feeling like ToB is similar is perfectly reasonable. Honestly, any argument to the contrary is pretty silly, as you're arguing about what other people feel about something. Lots of people feel that ToB has a more anime-style combat to it, and therefore it won't fit everyone's characters.

Flickerdart
2017-07-23, 01:02 PM
Honestly, any argument to the contrary is pretty silly, as you're arguing about what other people feel about something.
Feeling is an opinion. Opinions can be changed through discourse. I see nothing silly here.

Karl Aegis
2017-07-23, 01:09 PM
Jack: The Tremendous Horse Cut technique should have destroyed your sword.
The Scotsman: Magic runes, Laddy. All them fancy moves will get ya nowhere! Now quit yer jumpin' around and get ta fightin'!

That's like the only time the name of a specific move is mentioned in Samurai Jack. Jack mentions nothing when he goes through several stances and styles warming up to fist-fight Aku in season 4. If I recall correctly, only Da Samoorai in season 4 called his attacks and he wasn't exactly the most competent swordsman in the world.

Hackulator
2017-07-23, 01:38 PM
Feeling is an opinion. Opinions can be changed through discourse. I see nothing silly here.

Fair point. However, the fact that you can try to argue people out of that feeling does not mean there are not people who feel that way, therefore there is a reasonable niche of a martial character for those people. Which I think was where this argument originally came from? I dunno, internet discussions go off rails fast.


Jack: The Tremendous Horse Cut technique should have destroyed your sword.
The Scotsman: Magic runes, Laddy. All them fancy moves will get ya nowhere! Now quit yer jumpin' around and get ta fightin'!

That's like the only time the name of a specific move is mentioned in Samurai Jack. Jack mentions nothing when he goes through several stances and styles warming up to fist-fight Aku in season 4. If I recall correctly, only Da Samoorai in season 4 called his attacks and he wasn't exactly the most competent swordsman in the world.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to support with this information?

I feel like in game terms, that implies jack is a samurai who took the Martial Training feat?

Karl Aegis
2017-07-23, 01:55 PM
Nah, Da Samoorai is the one who took Martial Study for the moves Crazy Eights, Turkey Carve and Funky Chop. Jack just knows how to play.

Flickerdart
2017-07-23, 01:57 PM
Fair point. However, the fact that you can try to argue people out of that feeling does not mean there are not people who feel that way, therefore there is a reasonable niche of a martial character for those people. Which I think was where this argument originally came from? I dunno, internet discussions go off rails fast.

There is definitely a place for a martial character that does not have named, activated abilities. But part of the problem with 3.x is that characters without such abilities are always weak and limited. The people who insist that all fighters must lack these abilities are a big part of why fighters are weak and limited. It is not possible to resolve this issue without changing this mindset.

There are people who do not believe that fighters are weak and limited, but a fighter fix thread is not a place I'd expect to find them.

Krazzman
2017-07-23, 02:39 PM
Nah, Da Samoorai is the one who took Martial Study for the moves Crazy Eights, Turkey Carve and Funky Chop. Jack just knows how to play.

Yeah, exactly. Where does the notion come from that you have to yell the maneuver name? I mean you could but don't need... I am not sure if he ever did this in the games (haven't played them in a long time) but for example Dante from any DMC game has in fact named Maneuvers with his sword Rebellion (http://devilmaycry.wikia.com/wiki/Rebellion).

For example: Helm Breaker, High Time, Stinger, Million Stab, Round Trip, Prop, Shredder, Aerial Rave, Drive (Quick, Over) and Dance Macabre in DMC4.

Or Kratos (http://godofwar.wikia.com/wiki/Blades_of_Chaos) to name another... or if I remember correctly (never did it, had friends try to explain it) in RL Swordfighting a move they called Eber (Boar) and some other things I just can't remember.

There are enough things in any media for both calling out your move and not, the most prevalent with calling out the move might be Manga/Anime... but it's not the only one.

Also I have to 100% agree with Flickerdart. The "Guy-at-the-gym" fallacy coupled with "melee-can't-have-nice-things" isn't good.

Mr Adventurer
2017-07-23, 04:09 PM
Personally I find people who insist that ToB is "anime" completely baffling. I'm not an anime watcher - I barely even understand the complaint. But ToB classes are absolutely fantastic, and I have zero problem integrating them into my existing D&D games.

It all rather suggests that the "anime" problem is with the reader, not the material.

martixy
2017-07-23, 04:11 PM
Personally I find people who insist that ToB is "anime" completely baffling. I'm not an anime watcher - I barely even understand the complaint. But ToB classes are absolutely fantastic, and I have zero problem integrating them into my existing D&D games.

It all rather suggests that the "anime" problem is with the reader, not the material.

"Anime" is simply a convenient derogatory label these people can attribute to material that does not align with their personal view of a mundane class.

Grod_The_Giant
2017-07-23, 05:30 PM
I don't think a fighter is "simple". Quite the contrary as you seem to need to divulge endless amounts of diving into obscure splatbooks to make a fighter even function half-way decent. I played 3.5 for roughly 6 years and even though we had a lot of splatbooks 90% of fighter advice wasn't viable for our games. So why should I need to do that when I just can pick ToB and be done with it?
Simple to play is what I said. If you hand someone a pre-built Fighter, they'll pretty much just roll skill checks and full attacks, with maybe one or two feat-based special abilities. I can fit the relevant details for a standard archer or charger fighter on one side of a notecard. ToB classes are less so. You have to keep track of up to a dozen different special attacks and situational counters and changing bonuses from stances and all. In a game with the Warblade, that's the ideal role of a Fighter or Barbarian-- to be a simple-to-build, simple-to-run character for newbies.

gooddragon1
2017-07-23, 09:30 PM
My impression
Diplomacy (talking is not a form of combat or a way to be effective in it).
Sense Motive (Helps against feints)

The rest of the skill choices can be justified.

From the soulknife:


Mind Blade (Su)

As a move action, a soulknife can create a semisolid blade composed of psychic energy distilled from his own mind. The blade is identical in all ways (except visually) to a short sword of a size appropriate for its wielder. For instance, a Medium soulknife materializes a Medium mind blade that he can wield as a light weapon, and the blade deals 1d6 points of damage (crit 19-20/Ũ2). Soulknives who are smaller or larger than Medium create mind blades identical to short swords appropriate for their size, with a corresponding change to the blade’s damage. The wielder of a mind blade gains the usual benefits to his attack roll and damage roll from a high Strength bonus.

The blade can be broken (it has hardness 10 and 10 hit points); however, a soulknife can simply create another on his next move action. The moment he relinquishes his grip on his blade, it dissipates (unless he intends to throw it; see below). A mind blade is considered a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

A soulknife can use feats such as Power Attack or Combat Expertise in conjunction with the mind blade just as if it were a normal weapon. He can also choose mind blade for feats requiring a specific weapon choice, such as Weapon Specialization. Powers or spells that upgrade weapons can be used on a mind blade.

A soulknife’s mind blade improves as the character gains higher levels. At 4th level and every four levels thereafter, the mind blade gains a cumulative +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls (+2 at 8th level, +3 at 12th level, +4 at 16th level, and +5 at 20th level).

Even in places where psionic effects do not normally function (such as within a null psionics field), a soulknife can attempt to sustain his mind blade by making a DC 20 Will save. On a successful save, the soulknife maintains his mind blade for a number of rounds equal to his class level before he needs to check again. On an unsuccessful attempt, the mind blade vanishes. As a move action on his turn, the soulknife can attempt a new Will save to rematerialize his mind blade while he remains within the psionics negating effect.

Underlined section is relevant.

Those abilities should be Su, but I would just recommend having a buffed version of this where it lasts a number of minutes instead of rounds equal to fighter level since the fighter really does need the buff. Yes, it's a departure from a scholar of the fighting arts, but it's another bit of homebrew.

Melcar
2017-07-24, 01:18 AM
If the tier system is based on breadth and not depth, then the fighter will never be "fixed"...

Its a class that focuses on a very specific task at hand; namely striking enemies with a weapon or being hit by said enemy. Wanting to dilute that focus will not fix the fighter, it will simply change the class... Its fair game to want to do that, since utilizing the same tactic 20 level of play against basically every enemy you meet might get boring quickly, but as I see it, the fighter is inherently not supposed to have breadth... Its supposed to be focused at a few select things. As a former Chief of Defense once said: "The army has only one business to conduct; combat" What I mean by that is that the fighter forgoes all other things to be the best class at combat.

Now I totally agree that since the fighter fail at this, the class is broken, in as much as it does not fulfill its own criteria and thus are wanting for a fix. How one would make it the best fighting class in the game I don't know. I usually consider the fighter a 4 level dip on my combat focus builds.

Personally I don't mind the state the class is in, but the again I seldom take more than 4 level of the class in any build... Were I to take a stab at it ("fixing" the class), I would probably go for something like giving it a lot of the fighter feats as class abilities and might introduce fighter special abilities like the rogue has. They would be themed like: DPS'ing, Tanking, Tripping, Mounted Combat, archery etc... But again I haven't really done any thinking on the matter so... One thing for sure though... the class would get more skill points and more class skills.

Florian
2017-07-24, 01:32 AM
Personally I find people who insist that ToB is "anime" completely baffling. I'm not an anime watcher - I barely even understand the complaint. But ToB classes are absolutely fantastic, and I have zero problem integrating them into my existing D&D games.

It all rather suggests that the "anime" problem is with the reader, not the material.

Ok, let me try to explain it this way: Noticed that some people regularly recommend using parts of the Artificer and re-fluffing that as a martial character being good with the gear, then wondering why this is not accepted? Same problem.

People calling it "too Anime" donīt mean "Shouting the moves in combat" or similar things, but how the attached resource management affects the "look and feel" of a martial character towards a "Sword Caster". At that point, no honest answer can be given as why not to play a Gish then.

Contrary to what some people claim as a response to this, that has nothing to do with "martial canīt have nice things", but rather how those nice things should be designed to still reflect the intended martial "look and feel" of it.

Mr Adventurer
2017-07-24, 07:47 AM
Ok, let me try to explain it this way: Noticed that some people regularly recommend using parts of the Artificer and re-fluffing that as a martial character being good with the gear, then wondering why this is not accepted? Same problem.

No, I've never seen this. It sounds interesting.


People calling it "too Anime" donīt mean "Shouting the moves in combat" or similar things, but how the attached resource management affects the "look and feel" of a martial character towards a "Sword Caster". At that point, no honest answer can be given as why not to play a Gish then.

Surely it's the descriptions and outcomes - what is actually achieved - that affects the "look and feel" though? Not the mechanics?

Secondly, in what way is the ToB resource mechanic similar to anime? This barely makes sense to me. Like, does anime have a universal resource mechanic that mirrors that shown in ToB?

Thirdly, I'm sure you don't need me to show you how a gish is different in almosyt every respect from a Sublime Way character? I feel like this bit is in bad faith.


Contrary to what some people claim as a response to this, that has nothing to do with "martial canīt have nice things", but rather how those nice things should be designed to still reflect the intended martial "look and feel" of it.

Intended by who?

I'm still not clear on what you mean by "martial look and feel".

I'm afraid you've only raised further questions!

Cosi
2017-07-24, 08:25 AM
Be simple to play? Not have a very high floor that invalidates most non-ToB classes? Avoid the anti-ToB bias that crops up fairly regularly?

The Fighter isn't simple to build, and forcing someone else to build new player's characters is a bad paradigm. Also, the suggested fix involves dumpster diving for relevant magic item specials, which is high complexity.

Non ToB classes aren't invalid because ToB classes have a high floor, they are invalid because they are very bad. The reason you shouldn't play a Fighter isn't that the Warblade is better, it's that the Fighter is terrible. What ToB allows is martial characters that are viable at all.

I think anti-ToB bias is generally weaker than anti-homebrew bias.

Grod_The_Giant
2017-07-24, 08:27 AM
People calling it "too Anime" donīt mean "Shouting the moves in combat" or similar things, but how the attached resource management affects the "look and feel" of a martial character towards a "Sword Caster". At that point, no honest answer can be given as why not to play a Gish then.
No, I... think most of the "anime" complaint comes from the name. The resource management stuff is part of the "it's just spells" argument. Which is also kind of subjective-- I've always found that they feel quite distinct in play-- but it also easier to address. Instead of maneuvers getting expended, you can only use them 1/foe/encounter, because after that your enemies are on their guard. Or do something Law of Resistance-y, with increasing attack/DC penalties (representing the same) until refreshed or until the end of the fight.


The Fighter isn't simple to build, and forcing someone else to build new player's characters is a bad paradigm. Also, the suggested fix involves dumpster diving for relevant magic item specials, which is high complexity.

Non ToB classes aren't invalid because ToB classes have a high floor, they are invalid because they are very bad. The reason you shouldn't play a Fighter isn't that the Warblade is better, it's that the Fighter is terrible. What ToB allows is martial characters that are viable at all.

The Fighter as it currently exists isn't great, but there's certainly room for a tweaked version. Not everyone wants to play a complex character, and not everyone plays at an optimization level that's friendly to Warblades and their ilk. If you're playing with fireball-Wizards and curebot-Clerics, a Barbarian or a Fighter can contribute just fine.


I think anti-ToB bias is generally weaker than anti-homebrew bias.
I wouldn't be sure. I think low-op tables in particular will look more favorably on "Fighter with better skills and a signature weapon" than the high-floor ToB classes.

Deleted
2017-07-24, 10:36 PM
No, I... think most of the "anime" complaint comes from the name. The resource management stuff is part of the "it's just spells" argument. Which is also kind of subjective-- I've always found that they feel quite distinct in play-- but it also easier to address. Instead of maneuvers getting expended, you can only use them 1/foe/encounter, because after that your enemies are on their guard. Or do something Law of Resistance-y, with increasing attack/DC penalties (representing the same) until refreshed or until the end of the fight.


The Fighter as it currently exists isn't great, but there's certainly room for a tweaked version. Not everyone wants to play a complex character, and not everyone plays at an optimization level that's friendly to Warblades and their ilk. If you're playing with fireball-Wizards and curebot-Clerics, a Barbarian or a Fighter can contribute just fine.


I wouldn't be sure. I think low-op tables in particular will look more favorably on "Fighter with better skills and a signature weapon" than the high-floor ToB classes.

Over the years and stuff, I've come to the conclusion that the Fighter needs a niche that no one else can copy. The Barbarian has rage and pure damage, the wizard has spells, and the rogue has spike damage and skills. Anyone can do bigger numbers, that's pretty much the name of the game for 3e/3.5 :p (Dungeons and Bigger Numbers).

What I've come to is that the Fighter should be reactionary. Depending on what happens in battle, the Fighter should be able to react in such a way no one else can on a martial level. The reaction fighter I made is for 5e but the same principal could be applied to 3e.

After all, the 4e Fighter's reaction ability is one of the things that made it so damn wonderful to play. Being able to stop the movement of enemies with a reaction (opportunity attack) was amazing. That alone wouldn't bring it no higher than tier 5 or 4 but if you expanded upon that going back into 3e... You could make a fighter that didn't have "spells", wasn't "anime", but also wasn't just a watered down Barbarian or Rogue. One of the most iconic fighter things in fantasy is either throwing themselves into an attack that is meant for someone else or coming up with a nasty counter to an attack on them or their allies. Like if a dragon shot hot fire at an ally, having a fighter move and then cover the ally (with a shield or maybe just cutting the breath in half with a sword) is very fighter ish (or sellsword, knight, adventurer, or whatever you want to call them :p ) thing to do. Even if it was anime-ish, it would be the good type of anime-ish!

Making the Fighter the king of reactions also allows you to keep the character simple as you are already using reaction rules (provoking OA rules or swift action rules depending on how you want to go about it) that are part of the game and you can control just how complex you want your character to be. Having options doesn't make a character complex unless those options are rather complex, just like a Wizard is only as complex as you make them.

So, anyways... OP. Don't go just with MOAR NUMBAHS or whatever, find the niche you would like your fighter to have in order to stand out.

Melcar
2017-07-25, 01:59 AM
Over the years and stuff, I've come to the conclusion that the Fighter needs a niche that no one else can copy. The Barbarian has rage and pure damage, the wizard has spells, and the rogue has spike damage and skills. Anyone can do bigger numbers, that's pretty much the name of the game for 3e/3.5 :p (Dungeons and Bigger Numbers).

What I've come to is that the Fighter should be reactionary. Depending on what happens in battle, the Fighter should be able to react in such a way no one else can on a martial level. The reaction fighter I made is for 5e but the same principal could be applied to 3e.

After all, the 4e Fighter's reaction ability is one of the things that made it so damn wonderful to play. Being able to stop the movement of enemies with a reaction (opportunity attack) was amazing. That alone wouldn't bring it no higher than tier 5 or 4 but if you expanded upon that going back into 3e... You could make a fighter that didn't have "spells", wasn't "anime", but also wasn't just a watered down Barbarian or Rogue. One of the most iconic fighter things in fantasy is either throwing themselves into an attack that is meant for someone else or coming up with a nasty counter to an attack on them or their allies. Like if a dragon shot hot fire at an ally, having a fighter move and then cover the ally (with a shield or maybe just cutting the breath in half with a sword) is very fighter ish (or sellsword, knight, adventurer, or whatever you want to call them :p ) thing to do. Even if it was anime-ish, it would be the good type of anime-ish!

Making the Fighter the king of reactions also allows you to keep the character simple as you are already using reaction rules (provoking OA rules or swift action rules depending on how you want to go about it) that are part of the game and you can control just how complex you want your character to be. Having options doesn't make a character complex unless those options are rather complex, just like a Wizard is only as complex as you make them.

So, anyways... OP. Don't go just with MOAR NUMBAHS or whatever, find the niche you would like your fighter to have in order to stand out.

If your trying to make it more fun to play, than certainly, don't just increase numbers. Are you on the other hand happy with how fun the the fighter is, but for obvious reasons cant keep up with the pounce barbarian of the wiz in terms of epic damage... then surely apply more attack and damage...

The real problem is, how do you take a commoner, who is well trained in swinging a metal stick, and compare that to the wizard - the masters of the universe?

Grod_The_Giant
2017-07-25, 07:05 AM
What I've come to is that the Fighter should be reactionary. Depending on what happens in battle, the Fighter should be able to react in such a way no one else can on a martial level. The reaction fighter I made is for 5e but the same principal could be applied to 3e.
That's not bad. My preference has usually been to make them masters of mundane combat techniques-- the best at tripping, grappling, disarming, that sort of thing-- but that's not bad.


If your trying to make it more fun to play, than certainly, don't just increase numbers. Are you on the other hand happy with how fun the the fighter is, but for obvious reasons cant keep up with the pounce barbarian of the wiz in terms of epic damage... then surely apply more attack and damage...

The real problem is, how do you take a commoner, who is well trained in swinging a metal stick, and compare that to the wizard - the masters of the universe?
You can't; you have to accept that a T1/T2 in full cry is still going to run roughshod over you, because if you don't you'll go mad (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?307285-The-Myth-Tier-1-quot-Mundane-quot-Challenge-Accepted!). The real question is "how do you take a commoner who is well trained in swinging a metal stick, and make them useful in an adventure?" Which means making them good enough with their stick that they're not routinely rendered useless by monster special abilities or overshadowed be summoned allies, and it means finding a way for them to contribute when swinging a metal stick isn't needed. The first isn't too hard; the latter is somewhat moreso, and generally requires inventing some flavor.

Deleted
2017-07-25, 09:49 PM
If your trying to make it more fun to play, than certainly, don't just increase numbers. Are you on the other hand happy with how fun the the fighter is, but for obvious reasons cant keep up with the pounce barbarian of the wiz in terms of epic damage... then surely apply more attack and damage...

The real problem is, how do you take a commoner, who is well trained in swinging a metal stick, and compare that to the wizard - the masters of the universe?

The issue isn't about fun at all, anyone can find anything fun (I've had fun with a 3.5 monk). However, the fighter just lacks a niche and options that allow it to keep up with the game (unless you MC or optimize out the wazoo into specific paths). There is no real reason to have a fighter (the base class) as it doesn't really give you anything you can't find somewhere else (that does it better). Don't get me wrong however, I want there to be a reason we still have the fighter as a base class, I love "build your own" characters ;P. I'm pretty sure many people would agree with me as, and I haven't done any actual math, I'm pretty sure fighter fixes are the number one homebrew out there (finished or not).

You don't need to be equal to the wizard. You need to be equal to the game and not drag your party down. The difference between a Fighter and a Warblade in a party that has 3 others at tier 1 is that a cleric or a druid can pick up a weapon and beat things to death, but they will never be able to emulate the warblade maneuvers without dedication to the warblade class or picking up feats (and even then it is kind of a wasted feat). The Warblade can shine and be more than a "i move and hit" type of character in that party. The warblade doesn't need the caster to focus so much attention on them before, during, or after battle.

If you want something equal to the wizard, you have to have a wizard (or that weird Erudite psionic class i guess). You don't even need to equal the Sorcerer. When it comes time to stare down a lich, your high level fighter should be able to be awesome and contribute without the DM holding your hand.



That's not bad. My preference has usually been to make them masters of mundane combat techniques-- the best at tripping, grappling, disarming, that sort of thing-- but that's not bad.


Thanks.

The issue I typically have with "master of mundane" is that it typically runs into "bigger numbers" or "i can do this one more time per try than you" and it ends up having the same issue as the base fighter. I like part of the Fighter being a master of extraordinary and mundane, but they still need a niche that no one can really copy. Plus, and its been a while since I've looked at a bunch of these, from what I recall a lot of those types of homebrews tend to make the Fighter more dippable than before and makes other martial classes that much better (fighter 2/Barbarian, fighter 2/Rogue, etc...). I'm not oposed to a good master of mundane, but you have to be a lot more careful when you do something like that.