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Akayer
2017-08-15, 01:49 PM
My DM and my best attempt at a custom circle, a rogue/druid hybrid of sorts

Circle of the New Moon-
A Druidic Circle made of every kind of people commonly looked down on from Tieflings, Lizardmen, and Kenku, to former criminals. Members of this Circle understand that others look down on them but harbor no grudges, instead, they vow to protect nature and the people from the shadows, where they cannot be seen and credit is a liability. These Druids also don't look down on the methods that others may in order to achieve these ends. Things like trickery, assassination, poison, these are all simply tools members use to administer the balancing hand that they offer. When not working these druids actually enjoy mingling with other humanoids, as in doing so they create networks of allies. They also do not despise traveling through cities as much as their more traditional brethren as the brick and mortar streets are so often the places where they must work during the nights.

Hidden Roots-
After joining this Circle at level 2 you lose your proficiency in Medium Armor but gain proficiency in the Shortbow and two skills of your choice from Acrobatics, Deception, Sleight of Hand, and Stealth. In addition you also gain proficiency in the Poisoner's Kit and you learn the Message cantrip, which for you counts as a Druid cantrip and does not count against your maximum number of cantrips known.

Shapes of the Night-
Also at level 2 your ability to Wild Shape is permanently altered. No longer can you assume the shape of any beast, instead you may only assume the shapes of creatures that stalk the night as you do. You are, however, no longer limited by their ability to fly or swim. This list of nightly creatures includes various types of Owl, Rat, Raven, Spider, Wolf, Bat and/or other creatures of the DM’s discretion. In addition, regardless of what form you are in, as long as you are in your Wild Shape you gain 60 ft Darkvision for the duration of your transformation. All other features of the Wild Shape ability such as maximum CR and uses per short or long rest are left as they are normally.

Enhanced Spell List-
Your connection to the darkness of the night has given you access to new magical spells. At 3rd, 5th, 7th and 9th levels you gain access to these new Circle spells. Once you gain access to a Circle spell, you always have it prepared, and it doesn't count against the number of spells you can prepare each day. If you gain access to a spell that doesn't appear on the druid spell list, the spell is nonetheless a druid spell for you.
· 3rd level- Darkness, Invisibility
· 5th level- Bestow Curse, Lightning Arrow
· 7th level- Dimension Door, Greater Invisibility
· 9th level- Cloudkill, Mislead

Cloak and Claw-
Once you reach level 6 your connection to the night deepens, while in Wild Shape form you have a +5 bonus to both (Dexterity) Stealth and (Wisdom) Perception checks as long as the area you are in is appropriate for the form. In addition, once per turn you can also roll an extra 2d8 damage for both weapon attacks and spell attacks made when you have advantage on the target. This additional damage goes up to 3d8 at level 10, 4d8 at level 14 and 5d8 at level 18.

Holly and Thistle-
Upon reaching level 10 you have become more comfortable with the tools of your trade and can use them to their fullest potential. When wielding one or more melee finesse weapons that you are proficient with and nothing else, you gain a +1 to your AC and a +3 to both attack and damage rolls made with the weapon(s). In addition, if you are wielding a ranged weapon that you are proficient with you gain a +5 to both attack and damage rolls made with that weapon.

Blackened Flowers-
You learn to channel a crippling magical poison through both your weapons and spells. Your attacks are now considered magical for the purpose of overcoming resistances and immunities and are now imbued with a magical poison, as are your spells. The poison inflicts disadvantage on Ability Checks and Attack Rolls and halves the target’s movement speed, however you are immune to this and all other effects of the poison. Once per target per round, any target that is damaged by you in any way or that comes in contact with a non-illusion spell cast by you, such as Entangle, must make a Constitution saving throw against your Spell Save DC or become affected by your poison for 1d4 rounds. If a target currently affected by the poison fails the saving throw again they add another 1d4 to the rounds that they are currently affected for. There is no upper limit to the number of rounds that a single target can be affected for. The poison cannot be harvested by any means, and if this is attempted any poison that is somehow extracted evaporates into harmless water vapor instantly. The Undead and Constructs are immune to the primary effect of the poison. Instead, they take 2d8 acid damage on a failed save as the magic of the poison corrodes and destroys their unnatural forms.


Any opinions are appreciated, we focused a lot on our flavor, unsure if balance is proper or not, too weak, too strong, etc.

Knitifine
2017-08-15, 02:17 PM
I really like the flavor of this. My major problem is that it seems to replace too much of the original class's abilities. I'm generally not a fan of 'you can no longer x, now you y' changes unless they are triggered before you ever learn to x.

Disclaimer: I don't play much 5e, and it's my second least favorite edition, so gain of salt and all that.

JNAProductions
2017-08-15, 02:21 PM
Too many fiddly plusses.

Akayer
2017-08-15, 02:31 PM
I really like the flavor of this. My major problem is that it seems to replace too much of the original class's abilities. I'm generally not a fan of 'you can no longer x, now you y' changes unless they are triggered before you ever learn to x.

Disclaimer: I don't play much 5e, and it's my second least favorite edition, so gain of salt and all that.

Our idea here was to try to integrate a rogue into a druid, and vice versa, make things make sense from both ends. What do you mean, by what you're not a fan of? The replacement was triggered at the same level it would've been gained regardless

Akayer
2017-08-15, 02:32 PM
Too many fiddly plusses.

Care to elaborate more? We were a bit iffy on the bonuses we gave, with Cloak and Claw and Holly and Thistle, unsure if it was proper, too much, or anything, it just felt like it made sense, given where we were going

JNAProductions
2017-08-15, 02:46 PM
5E has pretty much done away with random niggling +1 here, or -2 there, or anything like that. Cloak and Claw, in addition to being against the spirit, is RIDICULOUSLY overpowered, due to its stealth mechanic. Normal Stealth people have, at level 6, +3 Proficiency, +4 stat, for +7. Rogues and Bards add 3 to that, for +10. You add half of what an Expertise character gets IN ADDITION to your own proficiency and Dex mod, if you have them. (And it stacks with Pass Without Trace, for a potential +15.)

Holly And Thistle is ridiculous as well. +1 to AC isn't bad, since you did lose Medium Armor and never got Heavy, but +3 to attack and damage on melee is rather much, and +5 to ranged rolls? For reference, Archery Fighting Style (available only to Rangers and Fighters) gives +2, to attack only. Take, say, 5 levels of Ranger and you now have two attacks at +7 over what most people get, and +5 damage. At level 15, you're doing 1d8+10 damage twice per turn at a +17 attack bonus. A Fighter, for reference, gets three attacks at 1d8+5, with a +12 attack bonus.

Even ignoring the attack bonus difference, your Druid/Ranger multiclass, in addition to being a 12th level caster, does 29 damage compared to a Fighter's 28.5. Admittedly, Action Surge probably remedies the difference, but if you ever take Sharpshooter, you're shooting at the SAME attack bonus as an equal level Fighter, for 1d8+20 damage. All while being a near full caster.

A build could look like this:

Half-Elf (my favorite) Druid 10/Ranger 5. Starting stats are 8, 16, 14, 10, 16, 10. First two ASIs are +2 Dex and Sharpshooter, first Ranger ASI is +2 Dex, for an ending Dex of 20, a respectable Wisdom, and decent Con.

You are nigh-impossible to detect (Pass Without Trace and +5 from the appropriate form) and have two attacks at +12, hitting for 1d8+20 damage each, ignoring cover as well.

Against an equal level Fighter (AC 18-Defensive Fighting Style (and Archery-going Champion) and Studded Leather, and Sharpshooter, and 169 HP plus 20.5 from Second Wind) it will take just over five turns to kill them with ranged attacks and no spells. For reference, the Fighter takes (against your AC 17 and 113 HP) either slightly less turns (Sharpshooter off) or nearly nine turns (Sharpshooter on) to kill this Druid/Ranger. (Less one turn, due to Action Surge, at least.)

So, in other words, if you bother expending so much as one or two spell slots on Healing Word when you're heavily damaged, you can out-archer an equal leveled fighter. I could've made them a Battlemaster, for better burst, but then again, you're a 12th level caster, and so have PLENTY of other tricks.

Akayer
2017-08-15, 03:02 PM
5E has pretty much done away with random niggling +1 here, or -2 there, or anything like that. Cloak and Claw, in addition to being against the spirit, is RIDICULOUSLY overpowered, due to its stealth mechanic. Normal Stealth people have, at level 6, +3 Proficiency, +4 stat, for +7. Rogues and Bards add 3 to that, for +10. You add half of what an Expertise character gets IN ADDITION to your own proficiency and Dex mod, if you have them. (And it stacks with Pass Without Trace, for a potential +15.)

Holly And Thistle is ridiculous as well. +1 to AC isn't bad, since you did lose Medium Armor and never got Heavy, but +3 to attack and damage on melee is rather much, and +5 to ranged rolls? For reference, Archery Fighting Style (available only to Rangers and Fighters) gives +2, to attack only. Take, say, 5 levels of Ranger and you now have two attacks at +7 over what most people get, and +5 damage. At level 15, you're doing 1d8+10 damage twice per turn at a +17 attack bonus. A Fighter, for reference, gets three attacks at 1d8+5, with a +12 attack bonus.



So, perhaps bringing the Cloak and Claw stealth and perception down to.. +2 or 3, maybe? It felt so situational, given the limited times you can shift, that the +5 wouldn't have been a big deal.
And as for Holly and Thistle, perhaps bringing the melee bonuses down to a +1 or +2 overall, and the range to a +2 or +3? We don't have a lot of experience with 5e, I'm new to it, and my DM is a little wary as well.
We do appreciate the feedback, though!

JNAProductions
2017-08-15, 03:06 PM
Hidden Roots is fine.

Shapes Of The Night is fine.

Enhanced Spell List is fine.

Cloak And Claw should give JUST the damage, but have it proc like Sneak Attack.

Holly And Thistle should be a universal +1 AC when in light armor or no armor (so as to also apply while wildshaped) and perhaps a single Fighting Style of your choice (modified to work with Wild Shape, maybe?).

Blackened Flowers needs to offer a save every round, because as it is now, it's also RIDICULOUSLY OP against anything not immune to poison.

Akayer
2017-08-15, 03:34 PM
Hidden Roots is fine.


Cloak And Claw should give JUST the damage, but have it proc like Sneak Attack.

Holly And Thistle should be a universal +1 AC when in light armor or no armor (so as to also apply while wildshaped) and perhaps a single Fighting Style of your choice (modified to work with Wild Shape, maybe?).

Blackened Flowers needs to offer a save every round, because as it is now, it's also RIDICULOUSLY OP against anything not immune to poison.

Our idea with the Cloak and Claw bonuses were more thematic than anything, meant to be a recon sort of setup, as opposed to Circle of Moon, with it's emphasis on using it for combat, or other means.

Holly and Thistle, I could definitely see the +1 AC working well, but not the fighting style. We were trying to give this Circle a bit of versatility, with the extra + to hit and damage on various weapons

Blackened Flowers, maybe the save to get rid of half of the rounds of currently affected poison, rounded up?

JNAProductions
2017-08-15, 03:38 PM
Our idea with the Cloak and Claw bonuses were more thematic than anything, meant to be a recon sort of setup, as opposed to Circle of Moon, with it's emphasis on using it for combat, or other means.

Holly and Thistle, I could definitely see the +1 AC working well, but not the fighting style. We were trying to give this Circle a bit of versatility, with the extra + to hit and damage on various weapons

Blackened Flowers, maybe the save to get rid of half of the rounds of currently affected poison, rounded up?

That's similar to what a Fighting Style would give you, but less blatantly overpowered.

And no-save to end the effect 100% entirely, every round. Poisoned is a debilitating condition. How would you feel, as a player, if your DM told you "You have been poisoned for 4 rounds. There is no save to stop it."

Akayer
2017-08-15, 04:19 PM
That's similar to what a Fighting Style would give you, but less blatantly overpowered.

And no-save to end the effect 100% entirely, every round. Poisoned is a debilitating condition. How would you feel, as a player, if your DM told you "You have been poisoned for 4 rounds. There is no save to stop it."

Cloak and Claw, how about giving them access to both Archery and Two-Weapon Fighting but limit the it to just being able to be used with finesse weapons for the second one? You take away the choice but retain the original goal of adapdability, as well as offering smaller and more specific overal bonuses.
Blackened Flowers, my only reservation about ending it immediately is that it may get to just seem useless as someone who you manage to poison and get 4 rounds on just immediately ends the effect with nothing actually happening to them. Only thought on a way to curb that would be to have them make the saving throw at the end of their turn?

JNAProductions
2017-08-15, 06:00 PM
End of the turn saving throw is fine, but they need one EVERY turn.

And no-give one Fighting Style. A choice is fine, but only the Champion gets two without multiclassing.

Akayer
2017-08-15, 11:04 PM
End of the turn saving throw is fine, but they need one EVERY turn.

And no-give one Fighting Style. A choice is fine, but only the Champion gets two without multiclassing.

Our current changes are as follows, opinions? Again, thank you for your help, more than appreciated!

Cloak and Claw-
Once you reach level 6 you learn to take advantage of even a momentary lapse in your quarry's guard, once per turn you can roll an extra 2d8 damage for melee, ranged and spell attacks made when you have advantage on the target or if another enemy of the target is within 5 feet of it, that enemy isn't incapacitated, and you don't have disadvantage on the attack roll. This additional damage goes up to 3d8 at level 10, 4d8 at level 14 and 5d8 at level 18.(edited)
Holly and Thistle-
Upon reaching level 10 your body has become more nimble and you have begun to master your prefered fighting style. You gain a +1 to your AC, and choose one fighting style of your choice from a list of Archery, Dueling, and Two-Weapon Fighting.
Blackened Flowers-
You learn to channel a crippling magical poison through both your weapons and spells. At level 14 your attacks are now considered magical for the purpose of overcoming resistances and immunities and are now imbued with a magical poison, as are your spells. The poison inflicts disadvantage on Ability Checks and Attack Rolls and halves the target’s Movement Speed. It does not discriminate between friend and foe, however you alone are immune to all of the poison's effects. Once per target per round, any target that is damaged by you in any way or that comes in contact with a non-illusion spell cast by you, such as Entangle, must make a Constitution saving throw against your Spell Save DC or become affected by your poison for 1d4 rounds. If a target currently affected by the poison fails the saving throw again they add another 1d4 to the rounds that they are currently affected for. There is no upper limit to the number of rounds that a single target can be affected for. A target currently affected by the poison can attempt the saving throw again at the end of their turn each round without risk in order to end the effect prematurely on a success. The poison cannot be harvested by any means, and if this is attempted any poison that is somehow extracted evaporates into harmless water vapor instantly. The Undead and Constructs are immune to the primary effect of the poison. Instead, they take 2d8 acid damage on a failed save as the magic of the poison corrodes and destroys their unnatural forms.