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Otto-Sieve
2007-08-11, 09:43 PM
I have an extra skill point left, and everytime i see rogue stats they have spot and listen. What im asking is, are these skills necessary?

I mean, we have an elf ranger in the party with 16 wis, with max ranks in both, and he is going to scout with me, so should i take them? becasue i know he is going to be better at it, with my 12 Wis. If i do, which one would be better?, because as i said, i have only one skill point left to spare.

Skjaldbakka
2007-08-11, 09:52 PM
I'd put Listen as higher priority than spot.

1) You can make Listen checks when asleep
2) You can make Listen checks to detect invisble creatures
3) You can make Listen checks to detect creatures behind barriers (such as closed doors).

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-08-11, 10:47 PM
Everyone should have Spot/Listen when possible. You never know when you'll be all on your lonesome, or when that Ranger will get a really low roll, and the second chance might be just what's needed (also, it's fun to be in the know without being reliant on someone else filling you in).

kpenguin
2007-08-11, 10:49 PM
I'd put Listen as higher priority than spot.

1) You can make Listen checks when asleep
2) You can make Listen checks to detect invisble creatures
3) You can make Listen checks to detect creatures behind barriers (such as closed doors).

Yeah, but Spot pinpoints where the enemy is at a lower DC then Listen, which just detects whether they're there.

reorith
2007-08-11, 11:13 PM
what is your role in the party? listen tends to be more useful than spot in my gaming experience.

TheDarkOne
2007-08-12, 05:19 AM
Yeah, but Spot pinpoints where the enemy is at a lower DC then Listen, which just detects whether they're there.

You also can't listen very well to oponents who are hiden but not moving.

Really, it doesn't matter how high other characters spot/listen is, if you fail a spot/listen check, you still miss out on the surprise round.

Skjaldbakka
2007-08-12, 05:29 AM
So there are merits to both. Are we talking putting one rank (total) into spot or listen, or are we talking 'which of the two, which I have some ranks in both, should I put one extra rank into?'.

Either way, one rank isn't huge. It might be worth putting that rank into a trained-only skill that you have a good stat for, so that you can attempt the roll. Do you have a rank in UMD? Tumble(I hope)? Sleight of Hand? Random Knowledge X?

Leon
2007-08-12, 09:48 AM
Drop them all into one, Listen for the reasons stated above - even you "main" Spot/listen user is going to fail a check and you could just be the one to pass it and save the day

Otto-Sieve
2007-08-12, 11:16 AM
I'm the rogue, and to answer the question, i have 4 skill points and i want to know what to put them in.

goat
2007-08-12, 11:21 AM
What sort of rogue? Dungeoneer? Thief? Con/face-man? Combat-rogue? Stealthy wand-blaster?

Storm Bringer
2007-08-12, 12:12 PM
What sort of rogue? Dungeoneer? Thief? Con/face-man? Combat-rogue? Stealthy wand-blaster?

i.e. the rogue class is at it's heart a very versitile one that is often used to cover very different party roles and skill sets. I'm going to assume form your comment you playing a standard lockpicky/trapmonkey type Dungeon thief (i.e. someone who will spend most of his carrer in a dungeon dealing with locked doors and traps.)

MrNexx
2007-08-12, 12:14 PM
I suppose saying "Do both, and slowly increase both, because they're both quite helpful" is verboten?

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-08-12, 12:44 PM
I suppose saying "Do both, and slowly increase both, because they're both quite helpful" is verboten?
Just what I was wondering, Mr. Nexx. It's not like you're absolutely required to max out all your skills.

Diggorian
2007-08-12, 01:14 PM
With Nexx and Windrider, I agree. [/yoda mode]

These are IMO the most often used and maybe even most important skills in the game. They spell the diference between being ambushed and setting an ambush, i.e. allowing you to play the scenario your way. If you can take up both, do it. If you prefer one, Listen: it's never turned off, faces far less obstruction methods than sight, etc.

A piece of friendly advice: dont think of it as competition with the elf, you're both on the same team. This team can definately benefit better from two members being able to act in the surprise round and giving each other back up.

Storm Bringer
2007-08-12, 01:27 PM
These are IMO the most often used and maybe even most important skills in the game.

our group learned that one the hard way in our first DND 3rd ed game. everyone was a veteran Adnd player, but we all found out very quickly after character gen that we really needed spot/listen/shearch. by level 20 we were quite good at it..........

Otto-Sieve
2007-08-12, 02:02 PM
I going to be a thief/dungeoneer and somewhat a combat rogue.

Subotei
2007-08-12, 04:03 PM
I going to be a thief/dungeoneer and somewhat a combat rogue.


Listen is your friend. Listen you can use round corners - no need to poke your head out - good for dungeon creeping.

the_tick_rules
2007-08-12, 04:07 PM
both are good, listen is a bit more tactically friendly by finding enemies out of line of sight or otherwise hidden, but spot lets you find secret entrances, that magical ring and other goodies that don't make noise, if you can take both, and some feat in complete adventurer that let's you do both in the same round with less effort if you want your charater to be a living radar.

Clove
2007-08-12, 09:02 PM
This might actually depend alot on your DM.

Does your DM almost always give a complementary Listen check with every Spot check? If so, then maxing Listen may be the way to go.

SensFan
2007-08-12, 09:15 PM
I don't think anybody mentioned this yet, so I will. If you get to act in a Surprise round, you will 95% of the time be able to sneak attack, the exception when the party gets ambushed, but you see/hear the baddies.