PDA

View Full Version : Class Ranking (MoI, ToB, ToM)



Skjaldbakka
2007-08-13, 01:05 AM
I am going to be running a campaign that uses Tome of Battle, Tome of Magic, and Magic of Incarnum, and was hoping that other people who might have more XP using them could give me an idea of the power level of various classes. Here is my best guess from what I have seen so far.


Crusader
Swordsage
Incarnum
Totemist
Warblade
Soulborn
Binder
Shadowcaster
Truenamer

EDIT- I forgot that one of my prospective players really wants to play a soulknife in a game, so add Soulknife to the list (probably right above Truenamer)

Also, how does the low-magic environment of the campaign (set in modern Tokyo) and the prevelance of modern firearms affect this balance?

Jack Mann
2007-08-13, 01:17 AM
Actually, crusader is typically considered the most powerful of the martial adepts, by virtue of their actionless recharge mechanism. Certainly, the random nature of their maneuvers-granted system is irritating, but one can overcome the problems there with enough foresight. It becomes especially better when one combines it with the right prestige classes (master of nine, though it takes some work to qualify for, is especially good).

Skjaldbakka
2007-08-13, 01:23 AM
OK. If I can get my list in the right order, I'll have a better idea on how to start beefing up the weaker classes/toning down the stronger ones.

Roog
2007-08-13, 01:28 AM
I am going to be running a campaign that uses Tome of Battle, Tome of Magic, and Magic of Incarnum
...

Also, how does the low-magic environment of the campaign (set in modern Tokyo) and the prevelance of modern firearms affect this balance?

How are you handling firearms (re proficiencies)? Are they simple or martial or a mix, or are you using the Personal Firearms Proficiency from D20 modern and if you are what classes will get it as a class feature?

How powerful are firearms in your game? Are you using D20 modern weapon stats or some other set?

Gralamin
2007-08-13, 01:49 AM
I am going to be running a campaign that uses Tome of Battle, Tome of Magic, and Magic of Incarnum, and was hoping that other people who might have more XP using them could give me an idea of the power level of various classes. Here is my best guess from what I have seen so far.


Crusader
Swordsage
Incarnum
Totemist
Warblade
Soulborn
Binder
Shadowcaster
Truenamer

Also, how does the low-magic environment of the campaign (set in modern Tokyo) and the prevelance of modern firearms affect this balance?

Assuming you meant Incarnate not incarnum, I'd make it like this:

Crusader
Warblade
Swordsage
Shadowcaster
Binder
Totemist
Incarnate
Truenamer
Soulborn

But thats just me.

Skjaldbakka
2007-08-13, 01:49 AM
D20 modern guns and gun feats. Using the occupation rules to determine whether you get firearms proficiency. The various meta-gun use feats are in the campaign. I'm not using any of the various Falling Star disciplines.



Crusader
Warblade
Swordsage
Shadowcaster
Binder
Totemist
Incarnate
Truenamer
Soulborn

I thought that Shadowcaster was generally considered broken (as in it doesn't work well)?

MeklorIlavator
2007-08-13, 01:51 AM
I can say that the crusader is very good at what he does. Namely, not dieing. I think that the crusader and the totemist are probably near the top of the chart, as I hear both are pretty powerful. The Truenamer belongs at the bottom of the pool, due to the insane DC's unless you optimize solely for it, with access to custom items.

Skjaldbakka
2007-08-13, 01:54 AM
I was thinking about using the change I suggested in the Truenamer thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3026395&postcount=31).


+1 competence bonus to Truespeak checks per Truespeaker level.
Can use any utterance a number of times per day equal to his charisma modifier before the Law of Resistance applies.

@Gramalin
What puts soulborn at the bottom for you?

Thurbane
2007-08-13, 02:02 AM
But aren't all WotC base classes always perfectly balanced against each other? :smalltongue:

Gralamin
2007-08-13, 02:12 AM
D20 modern guns and gun feats. Using the occupation rules to determine whether you get firearms proficiency. The various meta-gun use feats are in the campaign. I'm not using any of the various Falling Star disciplines.




I thought that Shadowcaster was generally considered broken (as in it doesn't work well)?

Good questions.
The thing is however, Shadowcaster is still magic, and therefore it still wins. The Tome of Battle classes are just awesome as well, though Warblade is just a bit stronger then Swordsage. Crusader is the best of the lot.
The Binder is Very Very Versatile, though The Totemist should come before it. The Binder and the Incarnate should of been equal.
The Truenamer is a terrible, terrible class, But I just see Soulborns as worse. I can't really explain why, but somehow I've always disliked them.

Skjaldbakka
2007-08-13, 02:23 AM
Isn't Truenamer also magic? Is the problem the difficulty to reliably use Utterances (which can be easily patched), or are the utterances worthless, or is it something else that makes it terrible, in your opinion? I have a player that the researcher feel of Truenamer will appeal to, so I would like to make it viable.

Krimm_Blackleaf
2007-08-13, 02:24 AM
But aren't all WotC base classes always perfectly balanced against each other? :smalltongue:

Heh.......

Gralamin
2007-08-13, 02:29 AM
Isn't Truenamer also magic? Is the problem the difficulty to reliably use Utterances (which can be easily patched), or are the utterances worthless, or is it something else that makes it terrible, in your opinion? I have a player that the researcher feel of Truenamer will appeal to, so I would like to make it viable.

Thats a good question. Its a combination of both. I personally love the fluff, but the utterances are pretty bad. Truenamer is the only type of magic I've ever seen that doesn't just win.

The best way I can think of fixing it is to let you use it more often, and improve the utterances.

Also, I recommend making Unnaming a utterance, not a spell.

ZeroNumerous
2007-08-13, 02:30 AM
Certainly, the random nature of their maneuvers-granted system is irritating, but one can overcome the problems there with enough foresight.

One could simply take Adaptative Style and ready only X maneuvers, where X equals the number of granted maneuvers you have. Change those maneuvers as a full round action. You're never required to ready as many maneuvers as you can, so you're perpetually capable of getting the same maneuvers over and over.

Dhavaer
2007-08-13, 02:40 AM
One could simply take Adaptative Style and ready only X maneuvers, where X equals the number of granted maneuvers you have. Change those maneuvers as a full round action. You're never required to ready as many maneuvers as you can, so you're perpetually capable of getting the same maneuvers over and over.

You are required to ready as many maneuvers as you can. I asked about that a few days ago in the simple questions thread.

Jasdoif
2007-08-13, 02:40 AM
You're never required to ready as many maneuvers as you can....Yes, you are. You're not allowed to leave a maneuver slot unfilled. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45885&page=41#post3020094)

EDIT: At least the ninja'ing was appropriate....

Skjaldbakka
2007-08-13, 03:02 AM
Does shadowcaster need any help? The abilities seem OK, but has anyone played one? Know what its strengths/weaknesses are? I recall someone suggesting that it have a more ToB style recovery for its abilities (make them usable 1/encounter, or spend a full-round action to recover the use of one).

Do you think it would be conducive to using the recharge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/rechargeMagic.htm) or Spell Points (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm) variants, instead of times/day?

Kioran
2007-08-13, 05:03 AM
The Warblade is not nearly on top of his game if you introduce firearms - he could be made to represent the "Yakuza-Swordsman", who is a nigh-on unstoppable force of carnage with a sword in his hand, but heŽll have problems with serious gunslingers. The Crusader suffers from the increased damage in Firefights - unless you only have fights with few participants, especially tons-of-mooks(tm) will do a lot more damage, which thins the Crusaders hard-to-kill bonus. Unless you mostly fight in cramped circumstances against few opponents, the Swordsage might be your best bet of the ToB classes - under these circumstances. More skills, a lot maneuvers for defense....
The crusader profits from being one of the few classes with healing capacity, though.

Incarnum - I would not know, IŽm not familiar

ToM - Truenamer doesnŽt do much. Generally, magic is going to be weaker if thereŽs grenades and machine guns around. Binders are okay, and even important, because they can heal.

But since is this Japan: Are guns handled very restictively, as in RL? Or is it going to be an all-out cinematic slugfest? That affects the balance as well. Especially for the Warblade.

Skjaldbakka
2007-08-13, 05:13 AM
But since is this Japan: Are guns handled very restictively, as in RL? Or is it going to be an all-out cinematic slugfest? That affects the balance as well. Especially for the Warblade.

Guns (and weapons in general) are going to be legally restricted, but there is an increased presence of underworld influences and corrupt mega-corporations with personal armed security teams. I pretty much expect the party will be largely unarmed except when they are expecting to run into trouble, but they can probably manage to acquire weaponry if they want to. Hopefully I can get at least one person to do the unarmed combat thing. Right now my line-up has a soulknife in it as well, and they are always armed.

Mooks with guns should be a relatively common opponent mid-game though. Early game is going to heavy mystery/lovecraftian horror style game. So early antagonists will mostly be cultists/gang members and OMG-what-is-that-thing!.

Oh, a side note that may be significant. Soulmelds can't be seen by normal people most of the time.

Overlard
2007-08-13, 05:16 AM
But aren't all WotC base classes always perfectly balanced against each other? :smalltongue:
Yep, they're all perfectly balanced.

Except the monk.:smallwink:

Skjaldbakka
2007-08-13, 05:35 AM
FWIW, here is the campaign blurb (from the yahoo group):


This is the place where I will be putting the information for my Lunar Dynasty game, a D20 game set in near-future Tokyo. This game will be using Tome of Battle, Tome of Magic, and Magic of Incarnum, and will run from 1st to 21st level.
I will be starting it in the fall, and the game will likely run from one to two years before completion. It will have a very anime feel. I imagine it will be similar to the 'vibe' of the anime Darker than Black, with a little bit of RahXephon as well. Just to give fair warning- you (the PCs) will be a 'cut above' normal people, normal people, when they need stats, being written up as 'ordinaries' from D20 modern. Which puts ToB, MoI, and ToM at a entirely different level (as you should be).

blue_fenix
2007-08-13, 10:13 AM
Shadowcaster definitely needs some kind of fix. It's two main weaknesses are multi-stat dependent casting (int AND cha) and very limited spells per day. At level six, a shadowcaster literally has exactly 6 non-0th level spells per day. Even at 20th level they have fewer spells known AND fewer spells per day than a sorceror.

One of the simplest fixes for them I've heard is letting them recover spells they've already spent. Maybe a full-round action per spell, or maybe 10 minutes of meditation to recover all their spells of a particular level. Also, letting them base all their casting on either int OR cha makes them much easier to build. There are a couple other shadowcaster fixes on the WoTC boards, but I can't access those at the moment, so you'll have to search them out yourself.

Skjaldbakka
2007-08-13, 10:06 PM
At level six, a shadowcaster literally has exactly 6 non-0th level spells per day. Even at 20th level they have fewer spells known AND fewer spells per day than a sorceror.

But we aren't comparing Shadowcaster to sorceror, we're comparing it to ToB, MoI, Binder, and Truenamer.

Lord Tataraus
2007-08-13, 10:36 PM
But we aren't comparing Shadowcaster to sorceror, we're comparing it to ToB, MoI, Binder, and Truenamer.

Yes, but I would argue that the ToB classes are very close in power to the Sorcerer, so it is relevant. I am currently playing a Shadowcaster with the following fixes: spells are 1/10 minutes, average base attack bonus and the addition of the feat Widen Mystery. with only that they are perfect battlefield controllers. The 1/10minute spells are basically the same as once per encounter, unless the encounter lasts longer than 10 minutes when they get a free recovery (but no recovery beforehand).

Truenamer is just plain crap. Their is no way to fix them without remaking the entire class. Of course, personally I dislike the flavor of the class, but even so, truespeak just isn't worth it.

As for the MoI classes, I have briefly looked at them and came to the following easement: Incarnate - a descent class, not much to say; just so-so. Soulborn - workable, but still sucky. Totemist - a powerful class reletive to the others, maybe not to ToB though.

My take:
Crusader
Warblade
Swordsage
Totemist - Shadowcaster - Binder
Incarnate
Soulborn
Truenamer
I think that the Totemist, Shadowcaster (fixed) and Binder are all pretty equal

Skjaldbakka
2007-08-13, 11:11 PM
Yes, but I would argue that the ToB classes are very close in power to the Sorcerer, so it is relevant.

Fair enough.



Truenamer is just plain crap. Their is no way to fix them without remaking the entire class. Of course, personally I dislike the flavor of the class, but even so, truespeak just isn't worth it.

That is unfortunate. I am going to have to playtest a few fixes for this class, since one of my players likes the flavor.

Roog
2007-08-13, 11:40 PM
D20 modern guns and gun feats. Using the occupation rules to determine whether you get firearms proficiency. The various meta-gun use feats are in the campaign. I'm not using any of the various Falling Star disciplines.

If you are using D20 modern gun rules then your current class lists make it very difficult to pick up the appropriate feats.

I would suggest adding a class with a feat at first level to enable a character who wants to learn Personal Firearms Proficiency to pick it up when they go up a level, and the Feat Rogue (maybe with the option of SA instead of a feat) or maybe Generic Expert from UA would fit the requirements. They would fill in some gaps in your class setup, and unlike the other classes could be mutliclassed with without significantly effecting the characters theme.

Skjaldbakka
2007-08-15, 09:01 PM
That isn't necessary, since various occupations give Personal Firearms Proficiency for free.

Roog
2007-08-16, 01:34 AM
That isn't necessary, since various occupations give Personal Firearms Proficiency for free.

Yes, but you only get the Occupation for a starting character.

There are several reasons why I would suggest a class like this:

1 - If someone starts in an occupation without Personal Firearms Proficiency, then since none of the classes you have listed gives a bonus feat that could be used on Personal Firearms Proficiency, only their 3N level feats could be used to purchase it. If you have a class with a bonus feat at first level any character who really wants to learn how to use guns can take a level of that class.

2 - Firearms in D20 modern come with a whole range of proficiencies to make them more effective. Sneak attack or similar also match the way handguns often work in stories. The Classes you have do not have bonus feats that could be used for this.

3 - If the class that was able to gain firearm feats was a 3/4 BAB class, that would help preserve the feeling of the full BAB classes as masters of melee.

4 - You do not have a class for the character who wants to concentrate on skills. Currently the closest you have is the Swordsage, who can make an effective character in terms of physical skills. You have no classes with the following skills: Computer Use, Decipher Script, Demolitions, Disable Device, Disguise, Forgery, Gather Information / Investigate, and Slight of Hand; and only the Truenamer has most of the Knowledge skills (including Technology and Business).

5 - You do not have a mundane class. The closest you have is the Warblade, but what do you do for a PC/NPC without "supernatural" abilities who is not a master of HtH combat?


The classes I suggested may not be an ideal fit for your game and may have inappropriate abilities (eg Trapfinding and Trap sense), but they were the best fit of the base classes I could find to illustrate what character possibilities would be needed to fit the world and could not be made with your class list.

The only classes you have that I can see seriously using guns in combat are Soulborn and Totemists.

Skjaldbakka
2007-08-16, 10:00 PM
1-3
I would imagine that anyone who really wants to use a gun would either take the feat at first level, or be of an occupation that grants firearms proficiency. Further, the PCs are not normal people, for various and sundry plot reasons. I don't really want PCs focusing on using guns, but it is an option, since there are guns, and NPC and the like will be using them a great deal. I also have some issues with using a class for the sole purpose of my players dipping two levels to get firearms feats.

4-
It doesn't look it, but the Incarnum makes a great skill monkey when he wants to, via soulmelds.

More seriously though, there are a large number of ways to gain extra class skills. Your occupation gives class skills, Martial Study gives class skills, and soulmelds, while they don't give you class skills, they can significantly augment skills.

5-
There are no mundane PCs, due to plot. Fighter, Rogue, Expert, Warrior, and the various 'ordinaries' from D20 modern are available for NPCS that are 'mundane'.

So, bottom line is, the following was intentional:


If you are using D20 modern gun rules then your current class lists make it very difficult to pick up the appropriate feats.

TheLogman
2007-08-16, 10:14 PM
Binder=Awesome, since he can almost be any class, or can just have awesome special abilities. On top of that, at later levels, he can be two classes, AT THE SAME TIME. I would rank him higher than he currently stands, because of his versatility in all cases. Sure in a fight or something, he's as powerful as a Totemist, but he can heal, something not many if any of those classes can do.