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The Giant
2006-06-26, 12:57 AM
New comic is up.

Brett Wong
2006-06-26, 01:01 AM
FIRST



Edit: Woah, first time being on the first page let alone being first!

I was reading about Thog in a discusion when my "comic sences" started tingling. I looked and BOOM i went to check if anyone had replied and noone had!

and I quote "He shoots, he scores!"



lol "the crazy bitch shot me!"



Yo, i had it at like a minute after the comic was put up but then my post got deleted...... I LOVE YOU CTRL+C, CTRL+V!


awsome comic by the way.

rcuhljr
2006-06-26, 01:01 AM
Simply Awesome.

Toxic Avenger
2006-06-26, 01:03 AM
Heh heh...

Cheaters never always prosper.

Go Haley! :D

Flame_Drake
2006-06-26, 01:03 AM
**chuckles**

Yay for hard-cracking the problem ;D

Drake

grim_chook
2006-06-26, 01:03 AM
Yay! Third reply (or at least first page)

Simply gorgeous, these puzzles always used to **** me off.

Thumbs up for Hayley!

Winged One
2006-06-26, 01:05 AM
ROFL! Just in time for my vacation, too! I love cheatery ways to solve that problem. ;D

radishlaw
2006-06-26, 01:10 AM
the one-shot comics lately are great. really great.

Now that's an easy solution to the test.
I wonder what the next will be about...?

jujik
2006-06-26, 01:10 AM
Nice one, I always liked that puzzle. My quandary was always why adventurer always trusted random signs.. So when I put this puzzle in a dungeon the sign lied, both entities (golems) lied, and there was no safe passage :)

Durin
2006-06-26, 01:13 AM
great comic first page whoo

CelestialStick
2006-06-26, 01:15 AM
"Don't bite me!" LOL!

This is the first time Haley has done anything in ages!

Does anyone remember that she still has some secret about which even V doesn't know? Not to mention that she apparently still can't speak normally.

Woot! Still first page! :P

Fale
2006-06-26, 01:16 AM
For anybody who wants the real solution to the puzzle, you would just ask each person what direction the other one would say. Both would point to wrong path.

Felinoid
2006-06-26, 01:16 AM
LOL, this was almost as good as when the LG knocked off the Potter knock-off. *Brilliant unorthodox way to solve it, though the green one ought to have kept quiet to keep it from being so blatantly obvious.

So now the Test of the Body was solved by the Mind and the Test of the Mind was solved by Bodily harm. :D *I wonder if someone's going to solve the Test of the Heart with their stomach. :P

EDIT: I believe the customary expression is wuut? ::)

illathid
2006-06-26, 01:20 AM
Wow didnt expect that at all.... very well done.

edit: First page, huh, that was unexpected as well.

edit #2: Wait, is this the 3rd comic from last week? or is it the comic for monday?

Jonathan327
2006-06-26, 01:20 AM
Wins!

Bookman
2006-06-26, 01:21 AM
LMAO! That was freaking BRILLIANT!!! I laughed so hard my sister had to get on and see it! I'll haveta submit that as a way to solve that problem sometime ^_^

Emperor Tippy
2006-06-26, 01:23 AM
excellent.

Thray
2006-06-26, 01:23 AM
I've seen so many of these. My favorite is the one from girly with the sombrero.

grimdirge
2006-06-26, 01:24 AM
i loved it!

CelestialStick
2006-06-26, 01:24 AM
LOL, this was almost as good as when the LG knocked off the Potter knock-off. Brilliant unorthodox way to solve it, though the green one ought to have kept quiet to keep it from being so blatantly obvious.

So now the Test of the Body was solved by the Mind and the Test of the Mind was solved by Bodily harm. :D I wonder if someone's going to solve the Test of the Heart with their stomach. :P
Just so long as Elan doesn't have to solve it with his spleen. :D

Abd al-Azrad
2006-06-26, 01:27 AM
Wow, that was awesome. I am speechless.

kits.dm
2006-06-26, 01:29 AM
Oh man... never equalled but definitely surpassed. :) That has to be one of the coolest adaptations of solving that particular puzzle.

Keep up the great work Rich

Barazon
2006-06-26, 01:29 AM
Hehehe, just goes to show: an original trial is more fun to play, but an original solution is more funny to read!

Edit: Anyone happen to know the origin of this puzzle, or even know if this fact is known at all?

King_of_GRiffins
2006-06-26, 01:30 AM
In retrospect, I can't believe I actually considered using that once, or actually using logic to solve it.

BelkarsDagger
2006-06-26, 01:32 AM
Ah, the classic puzzle. I love it, and that tactic was unexpected. Great Comic.

WOOT 2nd Page!

ekedolphin
2006-06-26, 01:39 AM
I have to echo Belkar's statement here-- THAT WAS AWESOME! Gotta dig Belkar's approval (which doesn't fill Haley with shame), Haley's self-satisfied raspberry-blowing, and Vaarsuvius' annoyance at Haley's tactic.

LordOfNarf
2006-06-26, 01:41 AM
Great Job Giant! I love his one, i was looking at how V was going to give the long explanation for the simple answer, and haley solved the problem in an even simpler fashion, Great job!

Steward
2006-06-26, 01:44 AM
I have to echo Belkar's statement here-- THAT WAS AWESOME! Gotta dig Belkar's approval (which doesn't fill Haley with shame), Haley's self-satisfied raspberry-blowing, and Vaarsuvius' annoyance at Haley's tactic.

Haley's comet arrow was completely called for right there, in my opinion at least. Do you have any idea how often I have been forced to solve that stupid riddle?

"Don't bite me."

AmoDman
2006-06-26, 01:46 AM
Come ye test of the heart! Assuming that the previous test was not it...in which case the group has now failed ;).

Seffbasilisk
2006-06-26, 01:51 AM
hahahaa!

Gordian's knot! Awesome!

kolmik
2006-06-26, 01:52 AM
HAHAHAHAHA * Thats *exactly* how I would have done it. * GO Haley * ;D


<<EDIT>> woot 3rd page

Maxis_IronForge
2006-06-26, 01:59 AM
Edit: Anyone happen to know the origin of this puzzle, or even know if this fact is known at all?

It was in the movie Labyrinth, which dates back to the 80s. It probably comes from some greek poem or something if you look back far enough though.

btw, in the labyrinth version the guardians also would not speak unless asked a direct question, and would only answer one. Ofcourse Labyrinth was a solo-quest ("do we get one question each or one all up, and does this count as my question?"), and the little girl in the movie didn't have the capacity to do them bodily harm.

When I did this puzzle I forgot to use the sign, and thus the guardians had to explain the scenario themselves.

Thus my players spent their 1 question each arguing with the guardians about how many questions they got, since the guardians had already spoken more than once thus invalidating the whole speak once scenario anyway.

Despite how obviouse the answer was (a particular guardian had answered most of their queries fairly accurately), they decided to just rip the guardians (doorknockers) out of their sockets and torture the information out of them - they kept the truthful doorknocker as an unwilling guide till they left the dungeon.

CockroachTeaParty
2006-06-26, 02:16 AM
I was just about to say, this comic really reminded me of labryinth. All it needed was a certain rock star's crotch, then it would have been 12 different kinds of awesome.

Solmage
2006-06-26, 02:16 AM
Hahahahahhahahah!!

She shot me! You crazy bitch, I can't believe you shot me! - Muahahahahhaah I actually tried that once *:D *:D *:D

And the look on V is priceless!


Edit: Ooh and page 3... getting closer :)

Lord Herman
2006-06-26, 02:23 AM
This strip is funny.

(all superlatives have been removed from this post by order of the Union for Sparing Use of Superlatives)

Teron
2006-06-26, 02:28 AM
Delightful use (and abuse) of a cliché! *Vaarsuvius's reaction is very funny as well.

I've never posted on one of these discussion threads before. *Third page isn't bad, eh?

Matuse
2006-06-26, 02:29 AM
"You shot me, you crazy bitch, you shot me!"

That line gives me major deja vu from a movie or a TV show or something...but WHERE?

Leaving that aside...this comic rocked. Haley > All.

Solmage
2006-06-26, 02:29 AM
Wow didnt expect that at all.... very well done.

edit: First page, huh, that was unexpected as well.

edit #2: Wait, is this the 3rd comic from last week? or is it the comic for monday?

Yeah, this comic is a complete paradox... it is early and late at the same time! (Not to mention that an early comic is in itself somewhat of an oxymoron..) The comic is late for "I'll start working on the late friday comic" but early for the Monday comic it is replacing :-)

Holy_Knight
2006-06-26, 02:32 AM
Nice to see Haley getting to do something, and make herself useful. :)

...


...


Okay, not really a spoiler, but anyway:

Since there wasn't a limit on the number of questions, they could have just asked something they already knew the answer to first... it really wasn't that difficult of a puzzle... :P

faeline
2006-06-26, 02:37 AM
Perfect solution...

Which feels as though Haley is like on PMS.

"GAHH STUPID PUZZLE!" *shoot*

Ravens_Wing
2006-06-26, 02:37 AM
Dude that is awsome!

well thats one way to solve that problem...lol

warmachine
2006-06-26, 02:50 AM
Abusing puzzles of logic? This is sacrilegious! Has the author no love of the noble?

Oh, alright. It's funny.

The party should have been allowed only one question in total, otherwise you can detect the liar by asking "Are you a bullfrog?"

Also, Vaarsuvius should have known the solution straight away. Every intellectual knows this puzzle, especially someone his age. He's letting the side down. He's a disgrace!

Maxis_IronForge
2006-06-26, 02:58 AM
I was just about to say, this comic really reminded me of labryinth. *All it needed was a certain rock star's crotch, then it would have been 12 different kinds of awesome.

NARRRGH! I can't stab out my minds eye!

why did you remind me of that?!? the horror!

Meyoni
2006-06-26, 02:59 AM
"You shot me, you crazy bitch, you shot me!"

That line gives me major deja vu from a movie or a TV show or something...but WHERE?

Leaving that aside...this comic rocked. Haley > All.


Yes its from a movie...

Harley Davidson and the Marlboro Man
"You shot me Harley!, You f-ing shot me!, I can't believe you shot me!"

Take out the R in harley and its especally apt ^_^

kerberos
2006-06-26, 03:00 AM
For anybody who wants the real solution to the puzzle, you would just ask each person what direction the other one would say. Both would point to wrong path.

That's one posibility, the other is asking "what would you say if I asked what direction the oracle was" The lier would lie about lying and thus point in the right direction.

Of course since there was no limit on the number of questions there really was no puzzle. You just ask one question to which you know the true answer, and then ask the truthfull gaurd which path to take.

Totally awesome comic BTW.

GM_West
2006-06-26, 03:00 AM
Actually woke up my poor wife laughing at that one. She just shook her head sadly and went back to bed. At least she's made her peace with having married an eternal geek. Lucky me! ;D

Awesome comic, Giant. I've liked 'em all of late, but that one is a gem!

Adder
2006-06-26, 03:20 AM
Poor V ;D

And the best part of it; both our DM and half of the players in our P&P-Group are reading OotS, so I am entertaining the hope that we won't have to bother with this particular puzzle anytime soon.

Thank you for that one, Giant :-*

Solmage
2006-06-26, 03:22 AM
Nice one, I always liked that puzzle. * My quandary was always why adventurer always trusted random signs.. *So when I put this puzzle in a dungeon the sign lied, both entities (golems) lied, and there was no safe passage :)


The only problem I see with doing this is that from then on the group may easily fall into paranoia, where every single 'clue' they get will be treated with such suspicion as to become worthless, perhaps motivating them to do the opposite, or do something completely different. Sort of like just trying to carve/disintegrate/etc a doorway through the wall instead of trying to open the damn door.

Solmage
2006-06-26, 03:27 AM
Also, Vaarsuvius should have known the solution straight away. *Every intellectual knows this puzzle, especially someone his age. *He's letting the side down. *He's a disgrace!

Oh, he likely knew the solution right away. It would simply have taken him a few hours to completely expand on the nature of the test and ultimately the logic of its solution. 8) As to wether this would have prompted both blue and red to shout 'Just shut up! Go that way! Please!' after the first six hours, is now open to debate :D

CharedTheCinder
2006-06-26, 03:37 AM
HAHAHA the boss made me go outside because I was laughing so hard!

Awesome Giant! Just Awesome!

efi
2006-06-26, 03:40 AM
Oh, I totally expected this plotline.

And it was just boring...

No, it was a great strip!

No, it was not!

...

:D

Ronald_saveloy
2006-06-26, 03:46 AM
V: "Gordium called - they have a knot that you may want to take a look at!"

That's a classic one! ;D

Arian
2006-06-26, 03:49 AM
Nice reference to the Gordian Knot there.

I opened my mouth to say "Hang on, Gordius was the guy who tied the knot," but research shows that Gordium was indeed the town founded by him, where the Great Alex later came across the said knot. :-)

Haggis_McCrablice
2006-06-26, 03:53 AM
Wonderful use of the principle of Occam's razor. I'm reminded of the scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark in which Indiana Jones is confronted with a sword-wielding assassin and, instead of a long-drawn out batttle which was in the script, whips out a pistol and simply shoots the bugger. The truth behind this is rather unlovely, though: Harrison Ford has a severe case of dysentry and the Hershey squirts, and ad-libbed this out of impatience. Hopefully Haley's brilliant strategy wasn't just a pressing need to go to the potty....

The "one tells the truth, one always lies" riddle was also used to good advantage in The Powerpuff Girls and Samurai Jack.

Charity322
2006-06-26, 04:11 AM
"You shot me, you crazy bitch, you shot me!"

That line gives me major deja vu from a movie or a TV show or something...but WHERE?

Leaving that aside...this comic rocked. Haley > All.


It reminds me of Terminator 2 for some reason, I know the quotes aren't exactly the same.

Dr. Silberman: You broke my arm!
Sarah Connor: There's 215 bones in the human body. That's one.

Man: "You son of a bitch... you shot me! (glass breaking) You crazy bastard!"
Terminator: "He'll live."

Max_Sinister
2006-06-26, 04:12 AM
*g* Now that was a really funny strip. Didn't Terry Pratchett also once say that if he was ever at Monty Hall, he'd kick the host in the balls, pack the goats in the car and drive away?

Marcyss
2006-06-26, 04:18 AM
One of *the* best "which is the liar" ever!

Wonderful! :D

I'll have to remember that...

battleburn
2006-06-26, 05:02 AM
New solution to an ancient problem, you've got to love it.

But now for the final question...
What is the last test, the test of the heart.

Any suggestions??


-->Belkar's 'That was awesome' was awesome<--

Lauren
2006-06-26, 05:03 AM
Huzzah for another brilliant, LOL-inducing comic to take my mind off work and other things.

soni
2006-06-26, 05:09 AM
I was the fastest as solving the Rubik's Cube.

but then again, I took it apart and put it back together!

Ronald_saveloy
2006-06-26, 05:26 AM
Nice reference to the Gordian Knot there.

I opened my mouth to say "Hang on, Gordius was the guy who tied the knot," but research shows that Gordium was indeed the town founded by him, where the Great Alex later came across the said knot. :-)

Especially as Haley's approach to the Gordian knot would be exactly the same as Alexander's one.

rwald
2006-06-26, 05:29 AM
*g* Now that was a really funny strip. Didn't Terry Pratchett also once say that if he was ever at Monty Hall, he'd kick the host in the balls, pack the goats in the car and drive away?

To be fair, the Monty Hall problem is at least interesting in that the correct solution is completely counterintuitive. The truthful/lying guardian puzzle, along with the 4/2/3 legs puzzle, is on my list of "puzzles to never use because absolutely everyone already knows the answer." When I saw what the puzzle was, I knew that Rich wouldn't just give a straight answer; I was actually expecting Belkar to attack one of the guards in his rage, but close enough. Another example of intentionally incorrectly manipulating a classic puzzle is in the movie Mirrormask by Neil Gaiman; presented with the 4/2/3 legs puzzle, the protagonist doesn't give the proper answer and instead mentions the circus's performing dog, which walks on its hind legs for the midday show and then urinates some time in the afternoon.

Alfryd
2006-06-26, 05:37 AM
New comic is up.
Not bad. *Not bad at all.
When will people realise that violence is the answer?

The Glitter Ninja
2006-06-26, 05:40 AM
I love Vaarsuvius to death, but I also like it when she gets a comeuppance. "Wow you didn't really screw up" just kills me.

Baelfyre
2006-06-26, 06:06 AM
A treat. Classic OOTS.

Freelance Henchman
2006-06-26, 06:07 AM
Haley = teh cute !

kerberos
2006-06-26, 06:20 AM
Haley = teh cute !


I suspect red guy might disagree. :P

The Glyphstone
2006-06-26, 06:32 AM
I was the fastest as solving the Rubik's Cube.

but then again, I took it apart and put it back together!


Faster = repainting it. ;D

Delgarde
2006-06-26, 06:38 AM
Oh, he likely knew the solution right away. It would simply have taken him a few hours to completely expand on the nature of the test and ultimately the logic of its solution.

Yup, that's V all right. Never give a short answer when you can give a couple of hours of rambling exposition on why the matter is of no challenge to your mighty elven intellect yet would be an insurmountable challenge to the lesser minds that surround you and how the answer can be explained in this way and that way, without ever getting around to answering the actual question.

orcmonk89
2006-06-26, 06:40 AM
LOL that was awesome. It shows just how under-appeciated V's intellect is.

Great one. Man, these rock at the moment.

Kanashimi
2006-06-26, 07:10 AM
hee hee very good. I wonder how many pages V could have gone on for were it not for Hayley's quick solution!

Great comic!

UtherSRG
2006-06-26, 07:11 AM
Woot! Giant, you almost made me *snarf* my morning coffee. A most excellent way to solve this classic problem. Thanks for the great comic!


For anybody who wants the real solution to the puzzle, you would just ask each person what direction the other one would say. Both would point to wrong path.
Actually, it's:
Ask either person what direction the other would say. The response will be the incorrect path, as the truthful person will repeat the liar's response, and the liar will corrupt the truth teller's response.



That's one posibility, the other is asking "what would you say if I asked what direction the oracle was" The lier would lie about lying and thus point in the right direction.
True that. But then you only need one guard, and the quester doesn't know if the guard is the lying guard or the truthful one. The other's on a lunch break. ;D

Glorfindel
2006-06-26, 07:12 AM
Nice comic again! I liked this one. It reminds me of an entry in the Monster Manual, probably of a giant:

"Problems which cannot be solved by brute force are not worth thinking about."

Mr_Shrubber
2006-06-26, 07:17 AM
MST3K (Mystery Science Theater 3000) flashback!

"Ow! You shot my butt! What the hell? You shot me in the butt!"

God, I have to check that ep out again sometime soon.

UtherSRG
2006-06-26, 07:26 AM
Poor V ;D

And the best part of it; both our DM and half of the players in our P&P-Group are reading OotS, so I am entertaining the hope that we won't have to bother with this particular puzzle anytime soon.

Thank you for that one, Giant :-*
There are plenty of variations on this theme, so don't get your hopes up that you won't face it.

Nikolai_II
2006-06-26, 07:27 AM
Actually, it's:
Ask either person what direction the other would say. The response will be the incorrect path, as the truthful person will repeat the liar's response, and the liar will corrupt the truth teller's response.


Unless, as in the movie Labyrinth that was mentioned above, the guards are too stupid to figure out what the other one should be saying ;)

UtherSRG
2006-06-26, 07:30 AM
The only problem I see with doing this is that from then on the group may easily fall into paranoia, where every single 'clue' they get will be treated with such suspicion as to become worthless, perhaps motivating them to do the opposite, or do something completely different. Sort of like just trying to carve/disintegrate/etc a doorway through the wall instead of trying to open the damn door.
That's only a problem if you don't want your players to be paranoid. ;)

Blaznak
2006-06-26, 07:34 AM
Now THAT was a solution to a problem!!!

Very cool...

UtherSRG
2006-06-26, 07:37 AM
Unless, as in the movie Labyrinth that was mentioned above, the guards are too stupid to figure out what the other one should be saying ;)
Damn... y'all are going to make me go back and watch the movie..... :'(

Asoon
2006-06-26, 07:40 AM
First time in a LONG time i did more than an internal laugh of an OotS comic.

well done.

_JM_
2006-06-26, 07:46 AM
I just love the reference to the Gordian Knot because, as Ronald_saveloy said Haley’s attitude was the same as Alexander the Great’s. Rather than waste time trying to use logic Haley shot one of the guards. Rather than waste time trying to figure out what bit of rope went over what to untie it Alexander hacked the Knot apart with his sword.

Though I think Alexander the Great would have done something more like Maxis’s players. Have his men seize both guards and hurt them until they agreed to lead him to the oracle, and use them as camp servants until they died.

(On the other hand he did have some respect for oracles and portents so he might have had qualms about hurting those in the service of an Oracle…unless he lost his temper and just killed them for their insolence ;) )

Nixie
2006-06-26, 07:52 AM
That was so awesome. I loved it. I agree, I think Haley would've disassembled a rubic's cube. I would too... (if I knew how...)

Lydia
2006-06-26, 07:54 AM
It reminds me of Terminator 2 for some reason, I know the quotes aren't exactly the same.

Dr. Silberman: You broke my arm!
Sarah Connor: There's 215 bones in the human body. That's one.

Man: "You son of a bitch... you shot me! (glass breaking) You crazy bastard!"
Terminator: "He'll live."

I think Jayne says something similar when River slices him with the knife in Firefly (the episode where they go to Ariel), except there it's 'cut' not 'shot', but that could also be quoting something else.

Korta
2006-06-26, 07:55 AM
Brilliant! I can never remember the right way to solve that truth/lie puzzle...but Haley's solution is the best! Nice to see her shine in a comic again, even if she can't speak yet!!!

Varian7
2006-06-26, 08:08 AM
LOL! Yay for Haley, very funny! Also yay for the third OOTS book to come out soon!

Ebonwoulfe
2006-06-26, 08:43 AM
I'm glad I read this on Monday morning, because it's going to make the whole day go great.

Corylus
2006-06-26, 08:54 AM
I liked the perfectly logical illogical response. :)

OzymandiasVolt
2006-06-26, 08:58 AM
Awesomeness, thy name is OotS.

Ethdred
2006-06-26, 08:58 AM
I'm glad I read this on Monday morning, because it's going to make the whole day go great.

I agree - I'd had a bad morning, so this really helped :)

And love the Gordium comment - along with Robespierre and Roy's comment to Elan at the start, Rich is becoming king of the one-liners!

JONJONAUG
2006-06-26, 09:02 AM
If they didn't say which direction in the first few panels leads to where, then the OOTS would have been a bit hasty in doing so.

It would have been much funnier if they went on the certain doom path just by taking the path of the person that told the truth, then ran back and took the other one.

Aerysil1
2006-06-26, 09:03 AM
THIS is why they are always STATUES!!!

blackfox
2006-06-26, 09:13 AM
Reminds me of... me...
I like V's little rant after Haley shoots the red one. Which is probably only because I can actually solve the Rubik's cube... That's going on my 'favorite quote' list. And the look on Haley's face? Classic. :)

Runolfr
2006-06-26, 09:31 AM
This one totally makes up for the hydra strip (meaning no offense to those who liked it).

That's a solution those logic-puzzle books never give...

Runolfr
2006-06-26, 09:41 AM
You know, a detect lie spell would utterly destroy puzzles like this...

Aeek
2006-06-26, 09:53 AM
thhbbbppt!

no decoding required so Haley must be cured !



I liked removing/replacing a Rubik's cube piece.



Did anyone notice that I'm unobservant?
I noticed you have a green belt and the green guy lied - coincidence?

Baar_Dau
2006-06-26, 10:11 AM
I registered just to say that this comic actually made me puke up orange juice.

Thanks a lot, Mr. Burlew. :)

AmberVael
2006-06-26, 10:13 AM
Did anyone notice that they never actually ASKED the truthful one which was the right way to go? they just assumed that the path next to him was the correct way and went. They still could be going the wrong way.

Did anyone notice that I'm unobservant?

Albion
2006-06-26, 10:29 AM
"Don't bite me." I think I just reacted the most to a bit with the lesser punch, but I guess I often do...

geez3r
2006-06-26, 10:35 AM
Is there any problem violence can't solve? Great comic Giant.

indianajoe
2006-06-26, 10:37 AM
Man....I've always despised those riddles....I wish they had options like that in most games.

Beelzebub1111
2006-06-26, 10:48 AM
I would have asked them both what color they were. But shooting in the foot is much funnier.

silvadel
2006-06-26, 10:52 AM
Maybe they DID only get one question and Roy botched the quest with his dumb first question -- and the Haley way was the only way to win at that point.

KayJay
2006-06-26, 10:59 AM
Oh, if only the arrow to the foot created the "crossed eyes" we all know and love.. then they'd be in trouble :)

Good strip... glad to know that Haley will still be able to play a role in the party even with her current ailments. It's also good that the last few strips haven't focused heavily on her aphasia... she's got it still, but it's just a background thing, rather than something everyone is focused on, and probably better that way.

Pheldagriff
2006-06-26, 11:12 AM
I think in the movie "speed", Keanu Reeves shot his partner in the leg when the bomb-guy kept him as a hostile

also, did anybody notice that Roy seemed to be instantly aware of the correct answer (he knew the puzzle) while V had to think about it.

Zora
2006-06-26, 11:18 AM
LOVE the new solution to the classic riddle!

baltor85
2006-06-26, 11:28 AM
Lol. These comics have been really good lately. Ever since the talking mouth, I've been at least laughing out loud(Even though the Mouth one made me choke on my food because I was laughing so hard). Great comic, the next time that my friends ask me that riddle, I will think back to #327 :D

And, best qoute, "Don't bite me."

Kontonshin
2006-06-26, 11:31 AM
Woohoo! I *love* logic puzzles, but the solution to this one was just awesome.

Somebody needs to send this to Raymond Smullyan...

Niskers
2006-06-26, 11:34 AM
I suppose page 8 is nothing to boast about...

Go Haley! About time my role model started getting some action again!

Aidan305
2006-06-26, 11:37 AM
Too...much...coolness...at one...time....

Hyper...ventilating...

So...funny...

Loved...V's comment...at the...end...

CatBoris
2006-06-26, 11:43 AM
Ahaha! So geeky! ;D

Roland St. Jude
2006-06-26, 11:44 AM
Wow, what a great strip! Rising action, excellent climax, amusing denoument. Funny at several points with a neat twist on a traditional puzzle (and a clever allusion to classic legend to boot!)

And yet for all the cleverness, I think my favorite part was "Don't bite me!" It's not a lie, it's just opposite, but it was very amusing.

Gregpooh
2006-06-26, 11:59 AM
They used this same puzzle in a Doctor Who episode way back before Labyrinth. I think it was the storyline with the pyramids, but it's been a long time since I've seen it.

So, now that I've shown my age and my geekyness...

My first thought when I saw the puzzle was a mental groan, can't Rich come up with something cleverer than this? I'm glad to see that he can.

Nice one.

Beelzebub1111
2006-06-26, 12:01 PM
Another good question: "Are you wearing a sombrero?" (http://www.go-girly.com/go/347)

SimonMoon5
2006-06-26, 12:03 PM
Gah, can you believe that as recent as just a couple of years ago, I actually had a DM stick this logic "puzzle" into a dungeon and he thought we might get stuck by it. (Of course, I was all like, "Well, duh, the answer is yadda yadda yadda because of yadda yadda yadda, come on guys, let's go.")

I think the DM was a bit flabbergasted to discover that he wasn't nearly as clever as he thought he was. But then, he was of the hack and slash mentality, so what do you expect?

(And I believe in addition to the liar and the truth-teller statues, there was a third statue (or illusion) with a magic mouth to explain the rules in the version this DM used.)

Solara
2006-06-26, 12:10 PM
Heh, typical V overthinking everything.

My first thought was just to ask what color the sky was, but Haley's solution was so much funnier. :D

"Don't bite me!"

Krytha
2006-06-26, 12:11 PM
hahaha that was great!

Aww... no longer king of the thread :'(

kerberos
2006-06-26, 12:14 PM
True that. But then you only need one guard, and the quester doesn't know if the guard is the lying guard or the truthful one. The other's on a lunch break. ;D
Quite so, in the version I first heard there was only one guy.

Wren
2006-06-26, 12:35 PM
called shot to the foot!

Daedrous Avari
2006-06-26, 12:38 PM
Funny, it reminded me of a simple way to solve the puzzle in Labyrinth.

Seffbasilisk
2006-06-26, 12:41 PM
Another good question: "Are you wearing a sombrero?" (http://www.go-girly.com/go/347)

Hahahahahaha! I was actually thinking of that when I first saw the puzzle!

ElfLad
2006-06-26, 12:57 PM
Ha, loved V's comment about the Gordian knot.

What's really funny is that even after Roy knew what to do, Haley went ahead and shot the guy anyway. She's so evil.

Lisa_mivita
2006-06-26, 01:22 PM
Yay for comics that are good enough to make a noob register! These last few have been great, and I am glad that the adventure has started up again!

Ronfar
2006-06-26, 01:36 PM
"My brain told me this was faster." - Fighter, 8-bit Theater

Marlene
2006-06-26, 01:55 PM
Bwahahaha! OMFG that was so funny! That's the first one in a long time that made me LAUGH, not just smile or snikker. Oh god that was funny.

EDIT: oy the filiter seems a little overzelous.

Zaruthustran
2006-06-26, 01:56 PM
Chuckle-worthy! Good comic.

kristineadam
2006-06-26, 02:04 PM
Haley is my hero! Thanks, Giant, for finding a way to let her shine--especially while poking fun of all those players who feel that the sound of their voice is more interesting than the game. (Not that I've met any, of course.)

Flashlight_Fish
2006-06-26, 02:17 PM
I know the conventional wisdom is that only the "fanboys" post here to rave about the comic, but just look at my post count.

This was one of the best yet. I really love how the strengths of each character get exploted in each story (both arc and individual comic) and it's extra awesome when one unexpectedly trumps the other, as in Haley finding the simplest answer to what looked like a job for V.

Funny and such good storytelling. Why this comic doesn't get more press is beyond me.

GypsyThorn
2006-06-26, 02:27 PM
Maybe they DID only get one question and Roy botched the quest with his dumb first question -- and the Haley way was the only way to win at that point.


I think Rich screwed up (OMG!) in that he didn't add at the bottom of the sign ("Oh, and BTW, you only get one question...."). Or maybe if they had asked the red/green guys another question, they would have remained silent.

Of course, Haley took all the guessing out of the problem with her "shot" at answering the question.

So, we'll never know if they would have answered any other questions, now do we?

Otterella
2006-06-26, 02:40 PM
Too bad my DM always inscribes his riddles on inanimate objects. I'll never be able to try this method.

WeaponMasterLDO
2006-06-26, 02:53 PM
This comic is one of favorite non-rule related ones.
Thanks for making my afternoon.

Myoro
2006-06-26, 03:10 PM
Great comic! I think my favorite part is the sign that points out which direction is left and which is right. I love subtle little bits like that.

battleburn
2006-06-26, 03:18 PM
Great comic! I think my favorite part is the sign that points out which direction is left and which is right. I love subtle little bits like that.
Belkar's subtlety 'awesome' shows a new found respect of Belkar towards Haley.

And here's my spoiler for today:

Haley just hasn't tried speaking since the incident, the shock has brought back her speach, but she just doesn't know it yet.

Korith
2006-06-26, 03:29 PM
;D

Awesome twist on a classic riddle.

Kish
2006-06-26, 03:51 PM
And here's my spoiler for today:

"The incident"? *looks through recent strips for a shocking incident* Vaarsuvius being eaten by the owlbear?

If the incident you're referring to is before strip #320, you'd better read strip #320 again.

BlythraB
2006-06-26, 04:06 PM
hehehe... now when someone tells me that dumb riddle (nicely done Mr. Giant) I can say I'd stomp on one of their feet and wait for a reaction. Thank you!
also: "hey there green guy and red guy!" OotS is the high point of my week

Walt
2006-06-26, 04:28 PM
Have you ever noticed with puzzles like this, with guards who either lie or tell the truth, that everyone always just assumes that the sign explaining the puzzle is telling the truth?

Spolier: I'm hoping it turns out the sign is false, and both ways lead to "certain doom"!

- Walt

EDIT: Okay, I thought I'd read the thread, but I managed to miss jujik saying basically the same thing back on page 1. Never mind!

Felinoid
2006-06-26, 04:36 PM
Actually, it's:
Ask either person what direction the other would say. The response will be the incorrect path, as the truthful person will repeat the liar's response, and the liar will corrupt the truth teller's response.
Aaaaactually, the way he phrased it would work. If you ask them what they would say, you get two levels to it; the truth teller tells the truth about the true answer and the liar tells a lie about the lying answer. For the truth teller it doesn't really matter since truth stays truth, but here's the method for the liar:

What he would say would be a lie, and the wrong direction. But if you ask him to tell you that which he would say if you asked him that question, which would be the lie, he'll lie about it and flip it back to the correct path. So an alternate question to get the correct answer (safe path) would be, "Which direction would you tell me to go if I asked you which path was the safe one?"

Ing
2006-06-26, 04:49 PM
When I did this puzzle I forgot to use the sign, and thus the guardians had to explain the scenario themselves.
.

wouldn't one garudian have just lied and contradicted the other while they explained it thus ruining the puzzle?

ikcor
2006-06-26, 05:21 PM
Freakin' awesome today. Reminds of me of when Indiana Jones shot the guy holding the sword.

battleburn
2006-06-26, 05:46 PM
"The incident"? *looks through recent strips for a shocking incident* Vaarsuvius being eaten by the owlbear?

If the incident you're referring to is before strip #320, you'd better read strip #320 again.

I meant #316, but now that I looked at it again I see in the last panel she is speaking gibberish again, so that can't be it after all

Erathia
2006-06-26, 06:20 PM
wouldn't one garudian have just lied and contradicted the other while they explained it thus ruining the puzzle?


They could've been under an allotment to tell the truth for that one area alone.

When I faced this puzzle (I think anyone who tabletop RPGs will eventually be forced through this), I just asked them both what 2+2 was. That worked wonders.

Loball
2006-06-26, 06:24 PM
They could've been under an allotment to tell the truth for that one area alone.

When I faced this puzzle (I think anyone who tabletop RPGs will eventually be forced through this), I just asked them both what 2+2 was. That worked wonders.
Except you're usually limited to one question.

Tyni_Tim
2006-06-26, 06:35 PM
Well, that's how you solve that puzzle obviously. Hehe... :D

Tobimaro
2006-06-26, 07:11 PM
Another great comic, Rich.

I liked Green's expression. "She absolutely did not shoot you, and I completely expected it!" :o

And why do I get a feeling that Haley will be the next target of an Explosive Runes spell? ;)

denhard76
2006-06-26, 07:28 PM
Just go and watch

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091369/

If you are old enough to remember it happened in this movie. And I think she even got it right with out shooting any one.

Maerok
2006-06-26, 07:36 PM
What if the Red Guard was supposed to lead them the other way, and the Green Guard was supposed to lead them the way they are going?

M._A._Foxfire
2006-06-26, 07:40 PM
This has to be my favorite comic yet. Ahh, everything was just so classic. The Elan-and-Roy snippiness, Haley's solution and V's response, "Don't bite me," the Gordion Knot and Rubix cube... *sigh*

Still, that was a pretty easy puzzle.

M._A._Foxfire
2006-06-26, 07:53 PM
Another example of intentionally incorrectly manipulating a classic puzzle is in the movie Mirrormask by Neil Gaiman; presented with the 4/2/3 legs puzzle, the protagonist doesn't give the proper answer and instead mentions the circus's performing dog, which walks on its hind legs for the midday show and then urinates some time in the afternoon.

Or like so.

http://mixedmyth.comicgenesis.com/d/20010912.html

Nightfall
2006-06-26, 08:40 PM
That HAS to be the best one yet!!! ;D ;D

5tephen
2006-06-26, 09:01 PM
Posted by: Tarl Strongheart Posted on: Today at 7:28pm
Just go and watch

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091369/

If you are old enough to remember it happened in this movie. And I think she even got it right with out shooting any one.

NO, silly!
She gets it wrong, and ends up falling down the 'well of groping hands and experimental puppetry'.

Anyway, it's an old logic puzzle, as the Giant indicated in the strip. It generally needs more conditions, like: You may only ask one question, or They will only answer questions about the paths ahead.

Anyway, fun comic. Can't wait to see the challenge of Heart.

Alsadius
2006-06-26, 09:09 PM
Holy crap, he just made a Gordian Knot joke. That may even trump the habeas corpus refrence. I'm so with Belkar on this one.

Dudukain
2006-06-26, 09:38 PM
AWESOME.

All there is to say...

TroyXavier
2006-06-26, 09:39 PM
Another fun comic. This is so Hayley and I loved it. Her smirk at the end said it all.

HomerHT
2006-06-26, 09:55 PM
I don't normally post in the comic discussion thread.

But that was probably the funniest comic to date.

Mega thumbs up, Mr. Burlew!

DASLAYARGH
2006-06-26, 10:08 PM
This one was SOOO funny! Those puzzles used to drive me nuts! Next time I hear another one of them, i'll just remember to bring an arrow with me... heh.

Solmage
2006-06-26, 10:19 PM
hee hee very good. *I wonder how many pages V could have gone on for were it not for Hayley's quick solution!

Great comic!

Until he would have defeated the puzzle by putting the guardians (and the group) to sleep :) http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=10

Cruiser1
2006-06-26, 10:24 PM
In the movie Labyrinth (http://www.astrolog.org/labyrnth/movie.htm), the girl Sarah did actually answer the riddle correctly with "would he tell me this door leads to the castle". Yes, when she took the correct door, she immediately fell down a trap door into the Shaft of Hands, but that's part of the magic of the Labyrinth, where often the right way seems wrong, and vice versa. After all, soon after Sarah encountered the rock faces in the tunnel, which would say phony waranings like "don't go on" "this is not the way" and such, even though she was on the right track. :)

Serina_Spellbinder
2006-06-26, 10:24 PM
Anyone else have a flashback to the Dr. Who episode "Pyramids of Mars"? :)

Lyc
2006-06-26, 10:25 PM
They used this same puzzle in a Doctor Who episode way back before Labyrinth. I think it was the storyline with the pyramids, but it's been a long time since I've seen it.

Doctor Who - Pyramids of Mars. Broadcast in 1975, 11 years before Labyrinth. *;)

Though instead of two paths there were two buttons - One for instant death and the other to escape. And the guardians were killer robots dressed up as mummies.

Oh and for the obligatory 'geek factor' - the robots were called Osiran Servitor robots and were under the control of Horus which were guarding the Eye of Horus which was the power source which imprisioned Suetekh on Earth. And the Seutekh actor, Gabriel Woolf, recently voiced the demon in the more recent episode 'The Satan Pit' ;D

Shea Landford
2006-06-26, 10:57 PM
AWESOME COMIC RICH!!!!!! loved it. Those puzzles always annoyed me, and you just gave me the easiest way. Shoot somebody! "Don't bite me." ROFLMAO!


Loved it so much.
Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you.

UtherSRG
2006-06-26, 11:14 PM
Aaaaactually, the way he phrased it would work. If you ask them what they would say, you get two levels to it; the truth teller tells the truth about the true answer and the liar tells a lie about the lying answer. For the truth teller it doesn't really matter since truth stays truth, but here's the method for the liar:

What he would say would be a lie, and the wrong direction. But if you ask him to tell you that which he would say if you asked him that question, which would be the lie, he'll lie about it and flip it back to the correct path. So an alternate question to get the correct answer (safe path) would be, "Which direction would you tell me to go if I asked you which path was the safe one?"

My point, and you should not the word I bolded, was that only one guard needs to be questioned, not both. The rest was just cleaning up the language.

Swiftbow
2006-06-26, 11:16 PM
This just had me cracking up laughing, whereas I usually just chuckle.

That is undoubtedly the best way to solve a puzzle like that, lol.

Orzel
2006-06-26, 11:21 PM
Gahahahaha


I remeber my first occurence to that puzzle. I opted for punching rather than arrows.

CelestialStick
2006-06-26, 11:45 PM
Doctor Who - Pyramids of Mars. Broadcast in 1975, 11 years before Labyrinth. ;)

Though instead of two paths there were two buttons - One for instant death and the other to escape. And the guardians were killer robots dressed up as mummies.

Oh and for the obligatory 'geek factor' - the robots were called Osiran Servitor robots and were under the control of Horus which were guarding the Eye of Horus which was the power source which imprisioned Suetekh on Earth. And the Seutekh actor, Gabriel Woolf, recently voiced the demon in the more recent episode 'The Satan Pit' ;D

Did Sarah Jane Smith appear in that episode? I know it was a Tom Baker episode.

That reminds me: last weekend I just saw again the episode where Jon Pertwee dies and regenerates into Tom Baker.

Felinoid
2006-06-26, 11:46 PM
My point, and you should not the word I bolded, was that only one guard needs to be questioned, not both. The rest was just cleaning up the language.
Okay, you're not getting my point. You were talking about asking #1 what #2 would say, which would create a 1 truth, 1 lie system which would work, and is the standard solution. What I am talking about (and the original poster as well, I believe) is asking #1 what he himself (#1) would say if asked. That creates a 2 truth or 2 lie system (double negative becomes positive), which would also work. "Cleaning up the language" does not include radically changing the meaning.

KuH
2006-06-26, 11:53 PM
Um, did anyone notice the signs 'right' and 'left' are written on the arrows behind the green and red guys? All they needed to do is point at one sign/direction and say 'is that left'?

Of course, then there would be no fun violence ...

Lyc
2006-06-26, 11:58 PM
Did Sarah Jane Smith appear in that episode? I know it was a Tom Baker episode.
Yes she did.


That reminds me: last weekend I *just saw again the episode where Jon Pertwee dies and regenerates into Tom Baker.
The episode was "Planet of Spiders" :). The next episode was "Robot"

Grey Watcher
2006-06-27, 12:00 AM
That has to be the best solution to that puzzle ever. ;D

CelestialStick
2006-06-27, 12:07 AM
Um, did anyone notice the signs 'right' and 'left' are written on the arrows behind the green and red guys? All they needed to do is point at one sign/direction and say 'is that left'?

Of course, then there would be no fun violence ...
Rats, missed another Spot check! :D




Yes she did.

The episode was "Planet of Spiders" :). The next episode was "Robot"
Yes, I remembered that it was Planet of the Spiders. Pertwee was the first Doctor I ever saw, and I was very sorry to see him go. Of course he had in fact already gone, but when I was watching the shows as they first came to America, I didn't know that. Most Americans started with Tom Baker, and as he did the Doctor longer than anyone else, they weren't very forgiving of his replacements. Since I started with Pertwee I wasn't so connected to Baker and generally liked his replacements more than many fans seemed to.

As I understand it, Pertwee really lost his joy in doing the show after his friend and frequent co-star, Roger Delgado (who played The Master), died in a car crash. Now in that case, I never did like the replacement. Delgado's Master had a certain civility and humor to his character that the other guy's Master never had. In particular I liked the way that he always wanted the Doctor to join him in ruling the galaxy. The laster Master was too cold for that. So oddly enough, Delgato's Master, despite being evil, had a certain warmth to him. He and Pertwee certainly had an excellent chemistry, rarely reproduced between hero and villain eleswhere.

So does Pyramids of Mars start with Sarah Jane and the Doctor going back to the 19th century and running into some archeologist who has unearthed a mummy or something?

Kish
2006-06-27, 12:11 AM
Um, did anyone notice the signs 'right' and 'left' are written on the arrows behind the green and red guys? All they needed to do is point at one sign/direction and say 'is that left'?
If you're only allowed to ask one question, that would waste it, though. "Very good, you've ascertained that I tell the truth. And now you have no way of finding out what I know." With unlimited questions, it's a very simple puzzle, since there are a lot of questions that immediately make lying obvious. ("What color is snow? Is ice hot or cold?")

CelestialStick
2006-06-27, 12:16 AM
If you're only allowed to ask one question, that would waste it, though. "Very good, you've ascertained that I tell the truth. And now you have no way of finding out what I know." With unlimited questions, it's a very simple puzzle, since there are a lot of questions that immediately make lying obvious. ("What color is snow? Is ice hot or cold?")
("Is Kish evil? With evil tendencies?") ;)

charik
2006-06-27, 01:01 AM
OK, that does it! No more logging off the internet, no more sleep. I logged off about 5~10 minutes before the comic got posted. :(

Obligatory spoiler:V has attempted to solve both the Test of the Body and the Test of the Mind, only to have the problem solved by others before he or she or it can act. Belkar solved the first with aid from Elan (inspiring competence), Roy and Haley solved this one. That leaves V to solve the Test of the Heart. :o

ElfLad
2006-06-27, 01:05 AM
Or Durkon

Ebonwoulfe
2006-06-27, 01:21 AM
Alright Rich, I can't stop laughing at this. I know it's probably day in day out stuff for you, but this strip has had me laughing all day. The last row of panels is funnier and funnier every time I read it.

CelestialStick
2006-06-27, 01:25 AM
OK, that does it! No more logging off the internet, no more sleep. I logged off about 5~10 minutes before the comic got posted. :(

You're still sleeping? What's wrong with you Charik? Do you want to catch a life or something?! ;D

xyzchyx
2006-06-27, 02:04 AM
Reminds me of a slightly tougher version of the same sort of logic puzzle:

You have a choice of two paths ahead of you. One path leads to your goal, the other leads to destruction. There is one person here who knows which is the correct path to take, and will answer a single yes-or-no question given to him by your party. Any question may be asked, as long as it is yes-or-no. The veracity of the answer, however, is questionable, as there is a chance (completely random) that the answer will be the exact opposite of the truth. He is free willed and can consciously choose whether to lie or not, and is aware of it when he is lying. Even if the answer is the opposite of the truth, however, there will be no twisting of the meaning of the question... the answer will be either the exact opposite of the truth to the literal meaning of the question asked or else the actual truth. Absolutely no means, magical or otherwise, of either detecting lies or forcing the truth out of this person will be effective.

What question do you ask to find out which way to go?

Pesi
2006-06-27, 02:05 AM
This reminds me of 'The 10th Kingdom'.
Anyone who hasn't seen that should go and rent/buy that right now.

Lyc
2006-06-27, 02:42 AM
What question do you ask to find out which way to go?
You get your fighter to punch his lights out, and whilst he is unconscious you tie him to you 10' pole with your 50' of rope.

You then proceed on your way, pushing him in front of you as a living 'mine detector', ensuring that its in his best interest that he points out the best path. *;D Oh and the question is 'Hey isn't that Elvis/Lolth/whoever over there?' so he turns, giving you free attacks.

battleburn
2006-06-27, 02:47 AM
What question do you ask to find out which way to go?

What would you say, if I asked you if this (while pointing to one of the roads) is the right path.

Unless of course he chooses to lie about the truthfull answer he would give otherwise :-/

molonel
2006-06-27, 03:51 AM
Senseless violence, and maimed nobodies left writhing in the dust. I wholeheartedly approve.

(Tom Baker, for anyone who cares, was the only REAL Dr. Who. Anyone who says otherwise probably needs a map to find his arse with both hands, or is perhaps British, which is just as bad.)

(Except, of course, for those Brits who populate this forum, who are all exemplary human beings, and notoriously good in bed. Or so I hear.)

paul_brown_1973
2006-06-27, 04:24 AM
(Except, of course, for those Brits who populate this forum, who are all exemplary human beings, and notoriously good in bed. Or so I hear.)

I am excellent in bed; I can sleep for days.

Tom Baker was the only real Doctor, though. Even though I am warming to David Tennant and I liked Christopher Eccleston, I can't quite see it as Doctor Who. Also, Tom Baker was the only Doctor to have a song written about him by REM.

Antina
2006-06-27, 04:38 AM
"Gordium called" "Rubics Cube" - soooo GREAT *lofl* ;D

Yorkiebar
2006-06-27, 05:47 AM
"Don't bite me"

Love it, great comic as always Mr.Burlew!

xyzchyx
2006-06-27, 06:18 AM
You get your fighter to punch his lights out, and whilst he is unconscious you tie him to you 10' pole with your 50' of rope.

You then proceed on your way, pushing him in front of you as a living 'mine detector', ensuring that its in his best interest that he points out the best path. ;D Oh and the question is 'Hey isn't that Elvis/Lolth/whoever over there?' so he turns, giving you free attacks.While I know that some players might think that's a really ingenious solution, it wouldn't work. Sorry. It's part of the constraints of the puzzle. If the party tried that in the game I had this puzzle in, they'd soon learn that no attack against this person would connect, and no spell would be effective, both would be silently ignored with neither regard or retribution. The only thing to which he will respond in any way is to the single yes-or-no question that the party is entitled. Railroaded? Not really, as the party can always turn around and give up, and move on to a different adventure.

There really is an answer to this puzzle though... and it's not an unheard of problem.

Paladine
2006-06-27, 07:08 AM
While I know that some players might think that's a really ingenious solution, it wouldn't work. Sorry. It's part of the constraints of the puzzle. If the party tried that in the game I had this puzzle in, they'd soon learn that no attack against this person would connect, and no spell would be effective, both would be silently ignored with neither regard or retribution. The only thing to which he will respond in any way is to the single yes-or-no question that the party is entitled. Railroaded? Not really, as the party can always turn around and give up, and move on to a different adventure.

There really is an answer to this puzzle though... and it's not an unheard of problem.



Complete Invulnerability to both physical and magical attacks !!
Forget whatever is on the other end . this guy is the treasure !
You can kill gods with him on your side .

Kanashimi
2006-06-27, 08:12 AM
While I know that some players might think that's a really ingenious solution, it wouldn't work. *Sorry. *It's part of the constraints of the puzzle. *If the party tried that in the game I had this puzzle in, they'd soon learn that no attack against this person would connect, and no spell would be effective, both would be silently ignored with neither regard or retribution. *The only thing to which he will respond in any way is to the single yes-or-no question that the party is entitled. *Railroaded? Not really, as the party can always turn around and give up, and move on to a different adventure.

There really is an answer to this puzzle though... and it's not an unheard of problem.

Yes, but that wouldn't have been nearly as FUNNY!!!

Schpungus
2006-06-27, 08:17 AM
That's totally railroading. Making sure the only correct answer is Your Answer? Oh yeah. We're talking transcontinental, baby.

Sir_Norbert
2006-06-27, 08:56 AM
Reminds me of a slightly tougher version of the same sort of logic puzzle:

You have a choice of two paths ahead of you. One path leads to your goal, the other leads to destruction. There is one person here who knows which is the correct path to take, and will answer a single yes-or-no question given to him by your party. Any question may be asked, as long as it is yes-or-no. The veracity of the answer, however, is questionable, as there is a chance (completely random) that the answer will be the exact opposite of the truth. He is free willed and can consciously choose whether to lie or not, and is aware of it when he is lying. Even if the answer is the opposite of the truth, however, there will be no twisting of the meaning of the question... the answer will be either the exact opposite of the truth to the literal meaning of the question asked or else the actual truth. Absolutely no means, magical or otherwise, of either detecting lies or forcing the truth out of this person will be effective.

What question do you ask to find out which way to go?

"Did you know that the Oracle is serving free beer today?" ;)

Alternatively, building on battleburn's attempt: "If I were to ask you whether the left fork is the correct road and you chose to answer with the same veracity, truth or lie, as you now answer this question, would you say yes?"

Otterella
2006-06-27, 09:08 AM
In the movie Labyrinth (http://www.astrolog.org/labyrnth/movie.htm), the girl Sarah did actually answer the riddle correctly with "would he tell me this door leads to the castle". Yes, when she took the correct door, she immediately fell down a trap door into the Shaft of Hands, but that's part of the magic of the Labyrinth, where often the right way seems wrong, and vice versa. After all, soon after Sarah encountered the rock faces in the tunnel, which would say phony waranings like "don't go on" "this is not the way" and such, even though she was on the right track. :)

And don't forget that even the faces couldn't figure out the riddle, so they weren't entirely sure what their answers were supposed to be. It's entirely possible that the truth telling face thought he was telling the truth, but was mistaken, and therefore gave the wrong answer. That's why that movie is so funny.

battleburn
2006-06-27, 09:55 AM
"Did you know that the Oracle is serving free beer today?" *;)

Alternatively, building on battleburn's attempt: "If I were to ask you whether the left fork is the correct road and you chose to answer with the same veracity, truth or lie, as you now answer this question, would you say yes?"
I am not even entirely sure that this question is the answer. Because of the problem that the statue can choose whether to lie about that answer or not. If he lies about giving the answer in the same veracity you would still go to the wrong fork.
I think this puzzle is unsolvable, xyzchyx is there really an answer?

DwaggieBard
2006-06-27, 11:16 AM
Look, what you may not be getting is:

Lieing is not the same as saying the opposite of the truth. However, if he can only answer yes or no and there is only one layer to the question we will say the opposite. However, if he is saying anything other than yes or no to a single-layered question, he can say whatever he wants, as long as it's not the exact truth.

So, if you tell him 'and you chose to answer with the same veracity, truth or lie, as you now answer this question', he might just answer either way... right?

battleburn
2006-06-27, 11:25 AM
If you ask him: "Is this the road to the oracle." how can you possibly twist the answer. It is a yes or no question.
Besides it is a test of brains. Not a DM's way of trying to kill the team. So there is no reason to twist the answer.

Lyc
2006-06-27, 11:35 AM
No mine detector? Fine, we'll do it the boring way.... :'( (spoilsport)

*thinks*

* Have him stand exactly between the two portals with his arms outstretched to the sides.
* Place a SILVER coin in his right hand
* Ask "Is the gold coin I put in your hand closest to the safe route?"
* If he says "Yes" then he is lying about the coin and hence the portal. Choose the left one.
* If he says "No" then he is telling the truth about the coin and hence the portal, so pick the right one.
* If he goes into a logic siezure and his head explodes (there is no coin...no spoon...reality error, divide by zero error, BSOD), you get oodles of XP for destroying an unkillable monster and dont need to do the quest.
* Retrieve your coin (with interest)
* Continue on your way

sugarmouse121
2006-06-27, 11:48 AM
lol I like Haley's way of solving that riddle!
So they've done the:
Test of the Body
Test of the Mind

Just the test of the Heart to go!

CelestialStick
2006-06-27, 12:09 PM
Each of the actors who has played the Doctor on BBC has done an excellent job. People who think that anyone needs a map to find his nether regions, of course, can't be expected to appreciate such a wide range of talent. ;)

Wikkin
2006-06-27, 12:41 PM
Reminds me of a slightly tougher version of the same sort of logic puzzle:

You have a choice of two paths ahead of you. *One path leads to your goal, the other leads to destruction. *There is one person here who knows which is the correct path to take, and will answer a single yes-or-no question given to him by your party. *Any question may be asked, as long as it is yes-or-no. *The veracity of the answer, however, is questionable, as there is a chance (completely random) that the answer will be the exact opposite of the truth. * He is free willed and can consciously choose whether to lie or not, and is aware of it when he is lying. *Even if the answer is the opposite of the truth, however, there will be no twisting of the meaning of the question... the answer will be either the exact opposite of the truth to the literal meaning of the question asked or else the actual truth. *Absolutely no means, magical or otherwise, of either detecting lies or forcing the truth out of this person will be effective. *

What question do you ask to find out which way to go?

If I asked you yesterday if this (point to one direction) was the path that leads to our goal, would you have responded Yes or No?

If he's lying, he'd have to lie about the lie. If he's telling the truth, he'll be truthful.

kerberos
2006-06-27, 01:03 PM
If I asked you yesterday if this (point to one direction) was the path that leads to our goal, would you have responded Yes or No?

If he's lying, he'd have to lie about the lie. If he's telling the truth, he'll be truthful.

The problem is he doesn't have to lie about lying, he could be truthfull about lying or lie about being truthfull, This is just "what would you say if I asked" moved into past tense.

kerberos
2006-06-27, 01:03 PM
double post

UtherSRG
2006-06-27, 01:05 PM
Okay, you're not getting my point. You were talking about asking #1 what #2 would say, which would create a 1 truth, 1 lie system which would work, and is the standard solution. What I am talking about (and the original poster as well, I believe) is asking #1 what he himself (#1) would say if asked. That creates a 2 truth or 2 lie system (double negative becomes positive), which would also work. "Cleaning up the language" does not include radically changing the meaning.

You are mistaken. Here's his original quote (with new bolding by myself), and my reply:

For anybody who wants the real solution to the puzzle, you would just ask each person what direction the other one would say. Both would point to wrong path.
My reply:
Ask either person what direction the other would say. The response will be the incorrect path, as the truthful person will repeat the liar's response, and the liar will corrupt the truth teller's response.

But yes, Felinoid, your solution is correct, too. It just wasn't the correct correction to Fale's error. I was correcting the each and both. You were changing the solution to a different correct solution.

Sir_Norbert
2006-06-27, 01:07 PM
If I asked you yesterday if this (point to one direction) was the path that leads to our goal, would you have responded Yes or No?

If he's lying, he'd have to lie about the lie. If he's telling the truth, he'll be truthful.
That only works if he's known to either always lie or always tell the truth, you just don't know which. That's what makes xyzchyz's version more interesting, you have to work around that somehow.

To answer battleburn, I think my solution does work; let's say he indicates the left fork. If he's truthful, he's saying that if you simply asked him which fork to take and he answered truthfully he would have said the left fork, so of course you take that fork. If he lies, though, the truth must be that if you simply asked him which fork to take and he lied to that as well he would actually have said the right fork. So either way, the left fork is right!

To DwaggieBard: certainly I get that lying is not the same as uttering the logical opposite of the truth. (I'm not sure whether you mean that I don't get this or that battleburn doesn't....) Anyway, here we have someone who we know will either tell the truth or the logical opposite of the truth. That's the whole point; without that stipulation, the question would be unanswerable. (He could say anything he wanted to any question regardless of where the Oracle was.)

Elcaz
2006-06-27, 02:12 PM
If I asked you yesterday if this (point to one direction) was the path that leads to our goal, would you have responded Yes or No?

If he's lying, he'd have to lie about the lie. If he's telling the truth, he'll be truthful.


Err... I think that wouldn't get you anywhere. The way it's phrased it seems like you're asking him if he would have given you a yes or no answer (Yes, I would have responded yes or no, or No, I wouldn't have responded yes or no). Wether you get the truth or not, you'd still be without knowing which way to go.

Otterella
2006-06-27, 02:12 PM
Each of the actors who has played the Doctor on BBC has done an excellent job. People who think that anyone needs a map to find his nether regions, of course, can't be expected to appreciate such a wide range of talent. *;)

Now you've got me thinking about Christopher Eccleston's nether regions... how am I supposed to concentrate on work??

xyzchyx
2006-06-27, 03:01 PM
If I asked you yesterday if this (point to one direction) was the path that leads to our goal, would you have responded Yes or No?

If he's lying, he'd have to lie about the lie. If he's telling the truth, he'll be truthful.The problem with this is that while he may have told you the truth yesterday, he might lie about it today, and the answer you get would carry no additional information. If he *always* lied or *always* told the truth, this would work... but he doesn't, so it won't (it's a slightly simpler version of the riddle I asked, actually). However, you are definitely on the right track. The key is indeed to get him to lie about lying if he is the liar, but you have to do it such a way that if he lying about the hypothetical question then he will HAVE to lie about lying, ie, take away that choice (he either tells the whole truth, or else lies about lying). One way to accomplish this is to ask the following, while pointing in one of the two directions: "If I were to ask you if this way is the correct way to go, and you answered as truthfully as you answer this question, would you then answer 'yes'?". The phrase "...and you answered as truthfully as you answer this question.." is the key, because the statement itself is not a question, it is an assertion, and he cannot choose to lie about telling the truth to the hypothetical question or tell the truth about lying to the hypothetical question unless he twists the interpretation of the question, which he will not do. His answer, therefore, will always be yes if you pointed the correct way and no if you pointed to the wrong path.

Kanashimi
2006-06-27, 03:28 PM
I love logic puzzles!

CelestialStick
2006-06-27, 03:43 PM
Now you've got me thinking about Christopher Eccleston's nether regions... how am I supposed to concentrate on work??


ROFL! I have to admit that I'd never considered Christopher Eccleston's nether regions! :D

P.S. Is he your favorite Doctor?
Sometimes I think that Jon Pertwee is my favorite, and other times I think that I just have a sentimental attachment to him because he was the first actor I saw playing the Doctor. I didn't really like Colin Baker at first, because he seemed too obnoxious and arrogant, but the Trial of a Time Lord showed him as more vulnerable and really put him on the map. Then I was sorry to see him go. Looking back at the old William Hartnell (original) Doctor it's fun to see what a grumpy, selfish old goofball he started out as. Patrick Trouton (sp?) though was probably the funniest, or at least the goofiest, with Sylvester McCoy running a close and excellent second. I think Peter Davison typically gets the rawest deal, as he had the misfortune of following Tom Baker, who to many American audiences was the only real doctor. Davison played a deliberately more vulnerable doctor, with his companions picking up more of the slack, but while that differed from the Tom Baker version, it really harked back to the orginal Doctor much more. The Pertwee and (Tom) Baker Doctors tended to overshadow their companions to the point where the companions often just served as two-dimensional figures in need of constant rescue. These were problems of writing, however, rather than of acting.

Of course I like Tom Baker too, and even as an adult (chronoligically at least ;D) got my mother to knight me a long, long scarf, which I still have, although haven't worn in decades. I even modeled the personality of one of my 1st Ed D&D characters after the glib and flip Tom Baker Doctor.

Oh, I forgot to mention that when I first saw Eccleston I wasn't sure I could accept him as the Doctor. With his buzz cut and leather jacket, he looked too much like a typical European neo-Nazi skinhead. But as with Tom Baker, he grew on me enough that by the time he died, I was sorry to see him go. (I also wish they'd killed him off in some better way, but then I have my issues with the whole Planet of the Spiders death of Pertwee too. For that matter having Tom Baker fall off a radio telescope ranks right down there too. Indeed having the Time Lords force the Doctor to regenerate might actually be the best of a long line of bad regeneration plots, although having Bill Hartnell's doctor just be too old and unhealthy probably provides the best story. I can't recall at the moment how Davison and Colin Baker died. McCoy got shot to death by a gang of hoodlums in the American Doctor Who movie, which is probably more or less how he, like Batman, should have been killed long ago, considering the way that he routinely meddles without having any sort of defensive powers. :D)

Felinoid
2006-06-27, 03:56 PM
Failed Spot check, I see. *I seem to have mismatched the response to Fale with the kerberos quote; kerberos was the one talking about the #1-#1 solution. *My mistake. :-/

CelestialStick
2006-06-27, 03:58 PM
Failed Spot check, I see. I seem to have mismatched the response to Fale with the kerberos quote; kerberos was the one talking about the #1-#1 solution. My mistake. :-/
Rats. You probably caught it from me. I routinely fail my Spot checks. It's a common symptom of ADD. That's what you get for hanging out on these boards! ;)

Zeful
2006-06-27, 04:32 PM
You do realize that that riddle can't actually work.
Okay so you have two guys at a fork in the road with the one road leading to safety and so on. One guy is lying and one guy is telling the truth. You are allowed to ask one question that both will answer. Because you only have one question it has to be along the lines of "Which way is safe?" or "Which way leads to death/doom/kittens?" your going to get the same resoponse, they are going to point to opposite paths. If you ask a math problem, or something obvious, you now know who is lying but not which path is safe. If you ask them to take you to safety (the best question) you still have a problem. The truthful person will take you to saftey but the lier will take you down the path of doom. There is no question you can ask to 'win'. The answer in the comic is based on the assumption that they are standing infront of the realitive path (ie. the truth-teller in front of the path to saftey and the lier in front of the path to doom) otherwise you will get the same response every time.

CelestialStick
2006-06-27, 04:36 PM
You do realize that that riddle can't actually work.
Okay so you have two guys at a fork in the road with the one road leading to safety and so on. One guy is lying and one guy is telling the truth. You are allowed to ask one question that both will answer. Because you only have one question it has to be along the lines of "Which way is safe?" or "Which way leads to death/doom/kittens?" your going to get the same resoponse, they are going to point to opposite paths. If you ask a math problem, or something obvious, you now know who is lying but not which path is safe. If you ask them to take you to safety (the best question) you still have a problem. The truthful person will take you to saftey but the lier will take you down the path of doom. There is no question you can ask to 'win'. The answer in the comic is based on the assumption that they are standing infront of the realitive path (ie. the truth-teller in front of the path to saftey and the lier in front of the path to doom) otherwise you will get the same response every time.

Riddle me this, Batman. ;)

Doug_Lampert
2006-06-27, 04:58 PM
You do realize that that riddle can't actually work.
Okay so you have two guys at a fork in the road with the one road leading to safety and so on. One guy is lying and one guy is telling the truth. You are allowed to ask one question that both will answer. Because you only have one question it has to be along the lines of "Which way is safe?" or "Which way leads to death/doom/kittens?" your going to get the same resoponse, they are going to point to opposite paths. If you ask a math problem, or something obvious, you now know who is lying but not which path is safe. If you ask them to take you to safety (the best question) you still have a problem. The truthful person will take you to saftey but the lier will take you down the path of doom. There is no question you can ask to 'win'. The answer in the comic is based on the assumption that they are standing infront of the realitive path (ie. the truth-teller in front of the path to saftey and the lier in front of the path to doom) otherwise you will get the same response every time.What would the other guy have answered if I asked him which way is safe works fine.

Truthful guy tells you the wrong way, because that's what the other guy would say. Liar will tell you the wrong way because truthful guy would have pointed the right way. It's not that hard.

Additionally in the comic they did NOT simply assume truthful guy was in front of the safe path. Truthful guy had pointed down that path when Roy asked which way to go, and then Haley identified which was which.

DougL

kerberos
2006-06-27, 05:26 PM
The problem with this is that while he may have told you the truth yesterday, he might lie about it today, and the answer you get would carry no additional information. If he *always* lied or *always* told the truth, this would work... but he doesn't, so it won't (it's a slightly simpler version of the riddle I asked, actually). However, you are definitely on the right track. The key is indeed to get him to lie about lying if he is the liar, but you have to do it such a way that if he lying about the hypothetical question then he will HAVE to lie about lying, ie, take away that choice (he either tells the whole truth, or else lies about lying). One way to accomplish this is to ask the following, while pointing in one of the two directions: "If I were to ask you if this way is the correct way to go, and you answered as truthfully as you answer this question, would you then answer 'yes'?". The phrase "...and you answered as truthfully as you answer this question.." is the key, because the statement itself is not a question, it is an assertion, and he cannot choose to lie about telling the truth to the hypothetical question or tell the truth about lying to the hypothetical question unless he twists the interpretation of the question, which he will not do. His answer, therefore, will always be yes if you pointed the correct way and no if you pointed to the wrong path.

I don't think that solution actually works. Sure if he answered with the same truthfullness then it would work but he could simply lie about that. You essentially just ordered him to be consistent. If you could order him to do that you might as well just order him to be truthfull and say "If you were to tell the truth which way would you say was safe then", and if you can do that there's not much puzzle left.

Eriol
2006-06-27, 05:34 PM
The problem with this is that while he may have told you the truth yesterday, he might lie about it today, and the answer you get would carry no additional information. If he *always* lied or *always* told the truth, this would work... but he doesn't, so it won't (it's a slightly simpler version of the riddle I asked, actually). However, you are definitely on the right track. The key is indeed to get him to lie about lying if he is the liar, but you have to do it such a way that if he lying about the hypothetical question then he will HAVE to lie about lying, ie, take away that choice (he either tells the whole truth, or else lies about lying). One way to accomplish this is to ask the following, while pointing in one of the two directions: "If I were to ask you if this way is the correct way to go, and you answered as truthfully as you answer this question, would you then answer 'yes'?". The phrase "...and you answered as truthfully as you answer this question.." is the key, because the statement itself is not a question, it is an assertion, and he cannot choose to lie about telling the truth to the hypothetical question or tell the truth about lying to the hypothetical question unless he twists the interpretation of the question, which he will not do. His answer, therefore, will always be yes if you pointed the correct way and no if you pointed to the wrong path.
This is genious IMO. You restrain their answer, while still allowing them to lie OR tell the truth. Awesome.


Now bringing the realm of logical puzzles to math, has anybody seen (and/or know the answer) to the folowing puzzle:

x+y = xy = x/y
x and y are members of the Real Numbers

Hint: remember, you can't divide by zero, and lim y->0 isn't a single number, and wouldn't satisfy the rest either. And I guarantee there's a solution in the Real numbers (more than one in the complex numbers IIRC)

xyzchyx
2006-06-27, 05:50 PM
I don't think that solution actually works. Sure if he answered with the same truthfullness then it would work but he could simply lie about that.He can't lie about that without twisting the interpretation of the question.
You essentially just ordered him to be consistent.Exactly.


If you could order him to do that you might as well just order him to be truthfullOne of the constraints of the puzzle is that you cannot coerce him to tell the truth.

But nowhere in the constraints did it forbid you from wording the question so that he would have to be consistent.

Evik
2006-06-27, 05:52 PM
ah yes....i love new twists on old tricks :D

infiniteviking
2006-06-27, 05:58 PM
Vaarsuvius always has such great quotes -- especially when being sarcastic. Awww, he was really looking forward to expounding on the nature of the puzzle for the next few hours. "You probably would have disassembled Rubik's Cube as well".... so, so fantastic. And yay for Haley solving it without speaking a single word!

Interesting how the red guy was the honest one and the green guy was the liar. Broken stereotypes are great. In fact, this comic is great. Well played, Giant!

Charik, I like your spoiler.

Oh, and Gregpooh -- yay for the geek factor! It's spelled 'Sukteh', by the way. My favorite Doctor is actually Troughton, with Pertwee and both Bakers in a row ;D ;D ;D right after him.

xyzchyx
2006-06-27, 06:01 PM
This is genious IMO. You restrain their answer, while still allowing them to lie OR tell the truth. Awesome.


Now bringing the realm of logical puzzles to math, has anybody seen (and/or know the answer) to the folowing puzzle:

x+y = xy = x/y
x and y are members of the Real Numbers

Hint: remember, you can't divide by zero, and lim y->0 isn't a single number, and wouldn't satisfy the rest either. And I guarantee there's a solution in the Real numbers (more than one in the complex numbers IIRC)
The answer in R is x=1/2, and y=-1.

Edit: I initially thought there were, but there does not appear to be any answers in the complex plane other than this.

kerberos
2006-06-27, 06:17 PM
He can't lie about that without twisting the interpretation of the question.
He doesn't twist the interpretation of the question he just plain and simple lies through his teeth. At least that's how I see it.

I understood not twisting the question simply to mean that he wouldn't answer a different question than the one you plainly intended to ask because your question was slightly ambiguous. For example on Wikkin's question “If I asked you yesterday if this (point to one direction) was the path that leads to our goal, would you have responded Yes or No?" he would not like Elcaz sugested have pretended that the question was whether he'd have answered either yes or no if he had been asked yesterday. I did not understand ths to mean that you could set up conditions that his answer must fulfill (with the exception of an explicit condition of truthfullness).

Your puzzle relies on a very peculiar interpretation of what it means to twist the questions, and logic puzzles are not supposed to be based on how you interpret the question, but on how to figure out the answer.

xyzchyx
2006-06-27, 06:37 PM
Your puzzle relies on a very peculiar interpretation of what it means to twist the questions, and logic puzzles are not supposed to be based on how you interpret the question, but on how to figure out the answer.
Uhmmm... what it means to not twist the question is to simply give an absolute unqualified answer to the question asked, whether the answer is true or not. All you have to do is ask your one question in such a way that there is a second hypothetical question embedded within it and that the answers to both would have consistent levels of truth (regardless of whether he lies or tells the truth).

UtherSRG
2006-06-27, 07:01 PM
Failed Spot check, I see. I seem to have mismatched the response to Fale with the kerberos quote; kerberos was the one talking about the #1-#1 solution. My mistake. :-/

And perhaps I failed my Diplomacy check, or whatever skill check would be appropriate for not having had to go back and forth on this as much as we did. ;D

CelestialStick
2006-06-27, 07:06 PM
And perhaps I failed my Diplomacy check, or whatever skill check would be appropriate for not having had to go back and forth on this as much as we did. ;D
Well sometimes the DC is just too high to reach unless you're a god. ;)

warlock
2006-06-27, 08:47 PM
go haley. way to take the wind out of v's sails.

Gamefreakguy
2006-06-27, 08:48 PM
I haven't read the other pages this time so I don't know if this has been mentioned, but...

Ahh! The red truth-telling goblin called Haley a name! Does that mean she really is a crazy b-?

EDIT:
Amazing comic, by the way. Best comis in a long time. And that's serious. Actually the ones lately all have been.

The_Kobold_Hero
2006-06-27, 08:53 PM
he he... I should try that next time my DM does that...

Kish
2006-06-27, 09:00 PM
Ahh! The red truth-telling goblin called Haley a name! Does that mean she really is a crazy b-?
I believe aphasia qualifies as a form of insanity, though I could be wrong. Haley is clearly not a dog or a wolf, but "bitch" is commonly used as a negative statement about someone's personality--a statement which the guard no doubt believes very sincerely indeed, just after being shot.

blackfox
2006-06-27, 09:05 PM
Somebody needs to send this to Raymond Smullyan...*shows thread to sister* See, my dear little sister? I'm not the only one who knows about Smullyan. You owe me five dollars.

Oh yeah, and "Don't bite me." Love it. :D

TheJet31619
2006-06-27, 09:14 PM
I believe aphasia qualifies as a form of insanity, though I could be wrong. Haley is clearly not a dog or a wolf, but "bitch" is commonly used as a negative statement about someone's personality--a statement which the guard no doubt believes very sincerely indeed, just after being shot.

Aphasia is a neurological disorder and has nothing to do with insanity.

CelestialStick
2006-06-27, 09:16 PM
Aphasia is a neurological disorder and has nothing to do with insanity.
Well said!

What is that unusual symbol you're using for your avatar?

theKOT
2006-06-27, 10:24 PM
From dictionary.com:

a·pha·sia Audio pronunciation of "aphasia" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-fzh)
n.

Partial or total loss of the ability to articulate ideas or comprehend spoken or written language, resulting from damage to the brain caused by injury or disease.

So you can see that Aphasia isn't really the word for Haley's condition, as she is suffering due to stress, not injury or disease.

Lord_Oni
2006-06-27, 11:06 PM
I dont feel like reading 16 pages of posts but has ony one noticed that since haleys being cured in comic #319 she hasent said a word. does anybody else suspect she is saving the reveal of her voice for either filler or some amazing event?

TinSoldier
2006-06-27, 11:09 PM
I dont feel like reading 16 pages of posts but has ony one noticed that since haleys being cured in comic #319 she hasent said a word. does anybody else suspect she is saving the reveal of her voice for either filler or some amazing event?What are you talking about? Haley hasn't been cured yet.

Lord_Oni
2006-06-27, 11:18 PM
I am assuming she has because in comic #319 in the last panel she speaks plain old 100% clear common. This leads me to beleive Haily has been cured

Steward
2006-06-27, 11:18 PM
I am assuming she has because in comic #319 in the last panel she speaks plain old 100% clear common. This leads me to beleive Haily has been cured

She was actually speaking in code that just happens to correspond exactly with Common.

Oh, and her speech bubble was transparent or something, so she was just talking in thought or to herself or whatever.

Lord_Oni
2006-06-27, 11:21 PM
Hmmmmm you do raise an interesting point that i seem to have overlooked. Perhpas she is not cured. Though maybe she is..... I am unsure at this point in time

Bilbo27
2006-06-27, 11:27 PM
I bet Haley would have broken the Rubiks cube.

Kish
2006-06-27, 11:32 PM
Hmmmmm you do raise an interesting point that i seem to have overlooked. Perhpas she is not cured. Though maybe she is..... I am unsure at this point in time
Reread strip #320, then.

CelestialStick
2006-06-27, 11:45 PM
Hmmmmm you do raise an interesting point that i seem to have overlooked. Perhpas she is not cured. Though maybe she is..... I am unsure at this point in time
She was taking to herself. Rich even posted on the thread to clarify that in the last frame she was still talking inside her head.

Felinoid
2006-06-27, 11:53 PM
Reread strip #320, then.
Xqp, that's the ticket.

I can't wait for her to be cured, though. I ate up those thinking strips like candy because at least she got to interact with someone, at the same time still feeling hungry because she was only interacting with herself. I long to see her as a full wise-cracking part of the party once again, especially after remembering those dozen "real zingers for Belkar" mentioned in one of the comics, and I hope that cleric is hurrying after the party with that specialized spell.

Messy
2006-06-27, 11:55 PM
(Hey guys, woot first post ;D)

Haley is not cured of speaking in cryptograms -- she says "Yes" in cryptogram-speech in comic #320. Reread it, it's a bit small.
I know I'll pretty much say this every comic because OOTS = best ever, but: GREAT COMIC RICH!! :)

(I can't seem to figure out how to quote someone, could someone PM me and tell me or something? Much appreciated!)

TheJet31619
2006-06-27, 11:55 PM
Well said!

What is that unusual symbol you're using for your avatar?

It's the Heartagram mainly used by the band HIM.

CelestialStick
2006-06-28, 12:14 AM
It's the Heartagram mainly used by the band HIM.
Never heard of either one of them, but I see the heart now.

charik
2006-06-28, 12:41 AM
From dictionary.com:

So you can see that Aphasia isn't really the word for Haley's condition, as she is suffering due to stress, not injury or disease.
Especially as she has no difficulty understanding speech.

kerberos
2006-06-28, 12:58 AM
Uhmmm... what it means to not twist the question is to simply give an absolute unqualified answer to the question asked, whether the answer is true or not. All you have to do is ask your one question in such a way that there is a second hypothetical question embedded within it and that the answers to both would have consistent levels of truth (regardless of whether he lies or tells the truth).


But it is in no way clear that lying to that question is giving an absolutly unqualified answer, at least not moreso than any other lie.

The thing is that if at any point when I was considering this puzzle I'd have thought of the corret answer I would have dismissed it because I would have thought it through and reached the conclusion that it didn't work.

For somebody who knows the standard version of the puzzle the problem isn't to figure out the answer, but to actually understand what the question is suposed to mean.

Itdano
2006-06-28, 01:13 AM
I didn't read any of this thread and am not going to get into all the minute details that I'm sure people are arguing regarding the classic Honest Guard/Dishonest Guard scenario and skip right to the first thing that came to mind when I read this comic. I am now doing this to every DM who ever pulls this out of his little bag of tricks. Every single one of them. Every single time they do it.

That is all.

Messy
2006-06-28, 01:17 AM
I am now doing this to every DM who ever pulls this out of his little bag of tricks.

Go Itdano! ;D

Kish
2006-06-28, 01:17 AM
I didn't read any of this thread
Hm.

The official posted Rules of Posting could use a slight addition, it appears.

Stile_De_Mornay
2006-06-28, 01:27 AM
Being as a liar would want you to fail and an honest person would wish you success, perhaps the question "Which way do you want me to go?"

The honest person would point down the correct path.

The liar being as he would want you do fail, would have to point down the correct path at this point in order to maintain his lie.

Invariel
2006-06-28, 01:42 AM
Unless the honest person honestly wants you to fail. In which case, he points down the "wrong" (but completely honest) path.

CelestialStick
2006-06-28, 02:01 AM
This reminds me of the episode of original Star Trek, "I, Mudd" in which Kirk says that "Harry Mudd is a liar" and Harry says, "yes, everything I say is a lie." The contradiction blows Norman's mind. :D

kerberos
2006-06-28, 02:31 AM
Being as a liar would want you to fail and an honest person would wish you success, perhaps the question "Which way do you want me to go?"

The honest person would point down the correct path.

The liar being as he would want you do fail, would have to point down the correct path at this point in order to maintain his lie.
The first time I heard this riddle I gave that answer, but that was because it had been specified that the cannibals (liers) and truthsayers each wanted me to go to their village. It doesn't work if this hasn't been specified, since with logical puzzles you can't make assumptions like that out of the blue.



Unless the honest person honestly wants you to fail. In which case, he points down the "wrong" (but completely honest) path.

Or perhaps the lier wants you to succeed.

kerberos
2006-06-28, 02:33 AM
This reminds me of the episode of original Star Trek, "I, Mudd" in which Kirk says that "Harry Mudd is a liar" and Harry says, "yes, everything I say is a lie." The contradiction blows Norman's mind. Cheesy
Actually there's no contradiction in that sentence. He lies about always lying. a contradiction/paradox would be "this sentence is a lie".