PDA

View Full Version : Help with Latin needed.



SpamCreateWater
2017-09-14, 09:23 PM
An hour on the internet (google, wikipedia) and I'm no closer to having any clue of what I'm doing with this language :smalltongue:

I need some assistance with a character's name. The name is in Latin.
The character himself is from a tribe that wanders through a snow-covered tundra. His family are renowned for their hatred of Elves. I wanted to give him a name that reflected these two attributes.

First name: Son of the White Land - Filius de Terrae Alba
Family name: House of the Elf's Enemies - Domus de Inimīcī Dryadalis

Notes:
Alba is - from what I can see - the correct white word as the lands he comes from are a dull, dirty white.
Dryadalis doesn't seem to be an actual Latin word - but for reasons that came up in the one-shot it needs to stay as the word for Elf.

So. Do those names translate to what I think they translate to?
And is there a way to "join" the names together? So his full name/title is Son of the White Land of/from the House of the Elf's Enemies?

Anxe
2017-09-14, 09:56 PM
"Son of" is usually represented by altering the suffix of noun that the person is a "son of," not by adding Filius to the start. The suffix for "son of" is -icius. I think it would be Albaterricius for his first name? That matches with other ways Alba and Terra are mashed together. So his first name should be Albaterricius.

The family name looks right to me, but feels culturally wrong for the way Romans presented themselves as enemies and conquerors of specific places. When Scipio conquered Africa he didn't take the name of the people that lived there. He took the name of the place and became Scipio Africanus. That signified his status as an enemy and conqueror of all the people that lived in Africa. Romans are always conquerors, never just enemies.
So I would have the character's last name focused on the place where his Elven enemies live. I feel like I'm assuming a lot of things about the context of your campaign though. Maybe this wouldn't be an appropriate change at all.

SpamCreateWater
2017-09-14, 10:29 PM
"Son of" is usually represented by altering the suffix of noun that the person is a "son of," not by adding Filius to the start. The suffix for "son of" is -icius. I think it would be Albaterricius for his first name? That matches with other ways Alba and Terra are mashed together. So his first name should be Albaterricius.

The family name looks right to me, but feels culturally wrong for the way Romans presented themselves as enemies and conquerors of specific places. When Scipio conquered Africa he didn't take the name of the people that lived there. He took the name of the place and became Scipio Africanus. That signified his status as an enemy and conqueror of all the people that lived in Africa. Romans are always conquerors, never just enemies.
So I would have the character's last name focused on the place where his Elven enemies live. I feel like I'm assuming a lot of things about the context of your campaign though. Maybe this wouldn't be an appropriate change at all.

Thanks for the reply. The discourse is enough for me to solidify some of the fluffier and less defined parts of the name/culture, so it all helps. This area of the world hasn't been detailed in as much as others, so some of it is up in the air for me to "do with as I will".

Albaterricius would explain why he has changed his name while journeying through the rest of the realm :smalltongue: More on that below.
Would "-icius" only come in to play if the way they named their children was p/matronymic?
Would "-icius" still apply of the name was more of a title, say "A son of the White Land".

While it may feel culturally wrong from a Roman viewpoint, these people are far from Romans. They don't conquer; they come in and pillage a place, then leave the residents to build back up before returning and pillaging it again. The other point where this is different to the Romans is that these people live far away from elves. It's an ancestral/familial hatred, and the family hasn't seen an elf for a few generations (until recently).
Given that extra context, does this make it better?

Regarding changing his name while journeying through place other than his homeland.
Because I think I'm hilarious I've chosen the name Albiz. Now, my knowledge of Latin is terrible - to say the least - so please be gentle in any criticism as I explain why.
Alba is representative to him of his homeland. But Alba is the feminine form. He's a manly man, so doesn't want that (I have no idea if that's how it works at all). He settles with Albiz - perhaps he went with Albus initially but met with a drunk "French" person who kept mispronouncing his name and it stuck.
From what I can see Albiz - or, at least, how it's sounded - is the common Germanic root for the word Elf. So, if I have done my 5 minutes of Internetting correctly on two languages I know zero things about... he's called himself a name that, in another language, means Elf. And he is from a family who hate elves. Thoughts?

Anxe
2017-09-15, 01:26 AM
The "icius" ending is still appropriate in the context of Albaterricius as a chosen name. And you're right it should probably be Albuterricius.

I think the main weird thing about the family name was including the "Domus" part. I think his full name would probably be Albuterricius de Iminici Dryadalis.

Shortening it to Albiz makes perfect sense. Latin roots have been bastardized all over the place and I think that's actually a version of Alba that's used in Turkey? Referencing Elves with it at the same time is pretty cool.

SpamCreateWater
2017-09-15, 02:13 AM
The "icius" ending is still appropriate in the context of Albaterricius as a chosen name. And you're right it should probably be Albuterricius.

I think the main weird thing about the family name was including the "Domus" part. I think his full name would probably be Albuterricius de Iminici Dryadalis.

Shortening it to Albiz makes perfect sense. Latin roots have been bastardized all over the place and I think that's actually a version of Alba that's used in Turkey? Referencing Elves with it at the same time is pretty cool.

Hmm. I think I'm leaning towards your example. I'll play about and see if I can make any other faux pas :smallbiggrin:

I feel I may be getting too hung up on my own experiences with Latin. Stella Maris, for example, is Star of the Sea. So I'm applying the same thought process to Son of the Land being Alba Terrae.
Domus was there, I guess, for a more formal House/Family title. To use Game of Thrones as an example, the House of Baratheon.

Thanks for your help :smallsmile:

Eldan
2017-09-15, 05:07 AM
I assume you mean "House" more in the sense of a noble family, not the actual building? Because in that case, I feel "Gens" is probably more appropriate than "Domus".

Thrudd
2017-09-16, 02:45 AM
There's also a difference between classical latin, medieval latin, and ecclesiastical latin, and the many in-between states of latin you see as it transitions into the other romance languages.

The use of "de" to mean "of" is one of those medieval things in the transition toward the romances. In classical latin, saying something is "of" something is formed by using the genitive case for the descriptive noun. That's where the "ius" names actually come from, smashing together filius with the genitive form of the father's name (like Julii filius into Julius or Luci Filius into Lucius). Terrae is the genitive form, so that's right but you don't need the "de". When "de" starts being used in this way, it is because the genitive case has disappeared - so it would more be "filius de terra" instead of terrae.

Classical latin also has few hard rules on word order. You don't need to put the adjective after the noun or the descriptor after the subject, it can be whatever way sounds best - usually putting first the word that wants to be emphasized. So it could be alba terra or terra alba

In your case, it's "son of the white land" not "white son of the land" (filius albus terrae) so it would be albae terrae filius. Of course, in Rome people weren't named in this way, and all "son of" names derived from a father's name, not a feminine gendered word. Since this name going to not work according to convention anyway, it could really be whatever you wanted. albaterrius, albaterricus

Inimici is the word for a personal enemy - so that sort of implies that someone is the enemy of one particular elf. If all elves, the clan or race or nation of elves are the enemies of your people, that would probably be more like "hostis/hostes". But that is what you would call the elves, it feels sort of weird using either of these "enemy" words to refer to yourself - I'm not sure if there are classical examples of Romans referring to themselves this way. Maybe 'adversus', as someone in opposition to something - or maybe something more descriptive would be appropriate like the "conquerors of elves" - that could be "victor" (like you beat them in a battle/war), "superator" (you are just way better than them), "domitor" (subduer or vanquisher), then of course add "es" for the plural form of these.

Now is "dryadalis" supposed to be the singular word for elf, and what case would it be? There are a lot of latin nouns with a singular genitive form that ends in "-is", and the nominative could be a lot of things. There are some nouns that are parisyllabic - both nominative and genitive singular are the same. But "-is" in latin is definitely a singular form. The plural for elves would need to be "dryadales" and the genitive plural would be "dryadalium" if it was a parisyllabic 3rd declension.

So to say "conqueror/superior of elves" it could be "victores/domitores/superatores dryadalium". Unless the family was named by the elves, in which case it could be "hostes/inimici dryadalium" or some such. To mash those words together into a name, could be a lot of things, too, that will sound pretty un-latin. You would only say "house of" when someone was being really descriptive or formal - the word for family wouldn't be mashed into the name itself. "This is albaterrius of the clan of elfbeaters" might be how someone introduces him, but he'd say his name was "albaterrius elfbeater" or whatever. Assuming the family name would be changed into a singular masculine form, like the first name, you might have something like Dryadomitius, or gens/gentis Dryadomitii.

Maybe, Superadryadius, victoridryadius, hostidryadalius - how much the name has mushed together and changed should probably depend on how long it has been since this clan was founded. If it is still early days, maybe people don't have shortened family names, but always announce the whole thing - "I am Albaterrius of the clan of Elf Conquerors". If he was speaking latin he'd say "Albaterrius gentis Domitorum Dryadalium sum".

MrNobody
2017-09-16, 03:10 PM
First name: Son of the White Land - Filius de Terrae Alba
Family name: House of the Elf's Enemies - Domus de Inimīcī Dryadalis

Notes:
Alba is - from what I can see - the correct white word as the lands he comes from are a dull, dirty white.
Dryadalis doesn't seem to be an actual Latin word - but for reasons that came up in the one-shot it needs to stay as the word for Elf.

So. Do those names translate to what I think they translate to?
And is there a way to "join" the names together? So his full name/title is Son of the White Land of/from the House of the Elf's Enemies?

Ok, the first name is easy! Latin speakers, and Romans most of all, LOVED playing with words*, so we already have a word for "son of the land": TERRIGENUS, a word often used to describe primordial men, giants (that, according to the myth, bore from the land), snails and snakes.

Adding albus (for white) to that we have ALBITERRIGENUS, that should be what you seek.

For the family name, adversus (or aversus) or bellator should be the most appropriate terms: since elves were not present in Roman mythology, dryad would be right.
This way, you can choose between DRYADAVERSUS OR DRYADOBELLATOR.

Personally, i dislike them both.
So i think you could do like romans that, when they run out of good words, they took them from Greeks.
In ancient greek -machos (pron. MaKos), is a suffix with a meaning similar to bellator.
So you have DRYADOMACHOS, a word with a real 'classical' sounding that to me fits the best.

* not as much as Greeks, that had a single word to describe the 'lover of the sound of the drum played by the arm of a Gaul'.

ahyangyi
2017-09-17, 11:53 AM
Speaking of elves and albus, they actually come from the same proto-indo-european root:

*h₂elbʰs (PIE) -> albus (latin)
*h₂elbʰs (PIE) -> *albiz (proto-germanic) -> lf (old english) -> elf (english)

Crazy.

KarlMarx
2017-09-17, 05:58 PM
Latin names have 2-4 parts, remember.

The first, or praenomen is the personal name, used by friends and family. There were only about a dozen of these, including Gaius, Lucius, Publius, Gnaeus, etc; they don't generally mean anything in particular. Google them, find a list, pick one you'd like.

The second, the nomen, signifies the gens or family of the person. Historically, these include Julius, Claudius, Cornelius, etc., most are either from the founder or from an ancient root.

The third, the cognomen, can signify two things. It can first be a name based on a person's achievements, such as Brutus or the previously mentioned Africanus. However, in many large gentes, it became used to specify the branch of the family to which the person belonged. Hence the Julii Caesares, Cornelii Scipiones, etc. This name can often develop to have a descriptor of the entire family in it.

In the event that a cognomen is used in the latter fashion, a further name may be adopted by an individual to distinguish themselves. Hence among the Cornelii Scipiones, for example, Cornelius Scipio Barbatus and Cornelius Scipio Africanus are different people.

In your character's case, I'd say it would be best to do as follows:

Praenomen and Nomen: just pick. Wikipedia has a huge list of them. They generally don't mean anything.

The next two are a little harder.

Cognomen: Here we need to make something translating roughly as 'from the enemies of x'. This concept, of an entire family being based on opposition to another group, was rare at best in Roman culture, which I'm just going to interpret as a positive here. Historically, names like Africanus generally wouldn't be inherited, though later this trend broke down--I believe multiple Claudii inherited the name Germanicus, for example. Unfortunately, there isn't really a Latin word for 'Elf'. The closest equivalent is probably the Dryad, hence, "Dryadicus" would be appropriate, or something similar such as "Nymphicus" or even possibly "Satyricus". Alternatively, one could transliterate Elf, for something like "Elficus", though I'm sure my classics professors would not be happy with my coining that term. It doesn't really sound at all Latin, though.

[The name after cognomen]: Next, we'd need to add "From the white land". Frankly, there's no way to come up with a phrasing for "white land" that doesn't sound awkward, though technically Albaterrius wouldn't be incorrect. Alternatively, going out on a limb that "white land" is referring to either a desert or a polar wilderness, which would respectively be [H]eremi[u]s (bracketed letters are optional) or (there's no Latin word for tundra so I'll bother the name of Aquilon, the North Wind) "Aquilis".

Now, one last thing to note. You can, if you need to further distinguish yourself, add another post-cognomen. If you do, and you're worried about having too many names, you can simply delete your gens name, move cognomen to nomen, etc.

SpamCreateWater
2017-09-17, 07:20 PM
I assume you mean "House" more in the sense of a noble family, not the actual building? Because in that case, I feel "Gens" is probably more appropriate than "Domus".
You're right; domus doesn't really fit, does it? Looking around, though, I think stirps is a better fit with the basic culture that's been presented.


There's also a difference between classical latin, medieval latin, and ecclesiastical latin, and the many in-between states of latin you see as it transitions into the other romance languages.

The use of "de" to mean "of" is one of those medieval things in the transition toward the romances. In classical latin, saying something is "of" something is formed by using the genitive case for the descriptive noun. That's where the "ius" names actually come from, smashing together filius with the genitive form of the father's name (like Julii filius into Julius or Luci Filius into Lucius). Terrae is the genitive form, so that's right but you don't need the "de". When "de" starts being used in this way, it is because the genitive case has disappeared - so it would more be "filius de terra" instead of terrae.

Classical latin also has few hard rules on word order. You don't need to put the adjective after the noun or the descriptor after the subject, it can be whatever way sounds best - usually putting first the word that wants to be emphasized. So it could be alba terra or terra alba

In your case, it's "son of the white land" not "white son of the land" (filius albus terrae) so it would be albae terrae filius. Of course, in Rome people weren't named in this way, and all "son of" names derived from a father's name, not a feminine gendered word. Since this name going to not work according to convention anyway, it could really be whatever you wanted. albaterrius, albaterricus

Inimici is the word for a personal enemy - so that sort of implies that someone is the enemy of one particular elf. If all elves, the clan or race or nation of elves are the enemies of your people, that would probably be more like "hostis/hostes". But that is what you would call the elves, it feels sort of weird using either of these "enemy" words to refer to yourself - I'm not sure if there are classical examples of Romans referring to themselves this way. Maybe 'adversus', as someone in opposition to something - or maybe something more descriptive would be appropriate like the "conquerors of elves" - that could be "victor" (like you beat them in a battle/war), "superator" (you are just way better than them), "domitor" (subduer or vanquisher), then of course add "es" for the plural form of these.

Now is "dryadalis" supposed to be the singular word for elf, and what case would it be? There are a lot of latin nouns with a singular genitive form that ends in "-is", and the nominative could be a lot of things. There are some nouns that are parisyllabic - both nominative and genitive singular are the same. But "-is" in latin is definitely a singular form. The plural for elves would need to be "dryadales" and the genitive plural would be "dryadalium" if it was a parisyllabic 3rd declension.

So to say "conqueror/superior of elves" it could be "victores/domitores/superatores dryadalium". Unless the family was named by the elves, in which case it could be "hostes/inimici dryadalium" or some such. To mash those words together into a name, could be a lot of things, too, that will sound pretty un-latin. You would only say "house of" when someone was being really descriptive or formal - the word for family wouldn't be mashed into the name itself. "This is albaterrius of the clan of elfbeaters" might be how someone introduces him, but he'd say his name was "albaterrius elfbeater" or whatever. Assuming the family name would be changed into a singular masculine form, like the first name, you might have something like Dryadomitius, or gens/gentis Dryadomitii.

Maybe, Superadryadius, victoridryadius, hostidryadalius - how much the name has mushed together and changed should probably depend on how long it has been since this clan was founded. If it is still early days, maybe people don't have shortened family names, but always announce the whole thing - "I am Albaterrius of the clan of Elf Conquerors". If he was speaking latin he'd say "Albaterrius gentis Domitorum Dryadalium sum".
Thank you for all of that information!

Yeah, I figure that I'd be bastardising Latin enough that throwing the timeline out the window is par for the course :smallbiggrin:

That I don't need to pay attention to the word order is both relieving (because I can do what sounds better) and terrifying (because it will be so easy to mess it up). And while the timeline isn't something I'm worried about messing with, there's a fine line I want to toe where it still makes sense and isn't butchered too badly.

Albae Terrae Filius works. Part of the character is that his name is (comparatively) ridiculously long, but you can't take any of it out.

After your explanation of Inimici, I feel it fits even more into his story and would be a quirk of his family. The creator of this family line had a hate against an elf, his son took upon the mantle when they passed because the elves live for much longer than humans do. And then the name just stuck.

You've lost me on parisyllabic 3rd declension, so I'll just refer you to my original post. I don't even think it's a "proper" Latin word. But, if it is, it is preferable to stay as Dryadalis or as close to it as possible.

The family - regardless of how long they've been around - will not have shortened their name. It's one of the quirks that came up while playing.


Ok, the first name is easy! Latin speakers, and Romans most of all, LOVED playing with words*, so we already have a word for "son of the land": TERRIGENUS, a word often used to describe primordial men, giants (that, according to the myth, bore from the land), snails and snakes.

Adding albus (for white) to that we have ALBITERRIGENUS, that should be what you seek.

For the family name, adversus (or aversus) or bellator should be the most appropriate terms: since elves were not present in Roman mythology, dryad would be right.
This way, you can choose between DRYADAVERSUS OR DRYADOBELLATOR.

Personally, i dislike them both.
So i think you could do like romans that, when they run out of good words, they took them from Greeks.
In ancient greek -machos (pron. MaKos), is a suffix with a meaning similar to bellator.
So you have DRYADOMACHOS, a word with a real 'classical' sounding that to me fits the best.

* not as much as Greeks, that had a single word to describe the 'lover of the sound of the drum played by the arm of a Gaul'.
"I am DRYADOMACHOS" :smallbiggrin:
Love it. Going to have to make a buff elf for the next one-shot.

I'm not sure Albiterrigenus has the right sound I'm after. That's good to know about the primordial men and such, though. Thanks. I'm sure I can fit a reference to that into his/his clan's backstory.


Latin names have 2-4 parts, remember.

The first, or praenomen is the personal name, used by friends and family. There were only about a dozen of these, including Gaius, Lucius, Publius, Gnaeus, etc; they don't generally mean anything in particular. Google them, find a list, pick one you'd like.

The second, the nomen, signifies the gens or family of the person. Historically, these include Julius, Claudius, Cornelius, etc., most are either from the founder or from an ancient root.

The third, the cognomen, can signify two things. It can first be a name based on a person's achievements, such as Brutus or the previously mentioned Africanus. However, in many large gentes, it became used to specify the branch of the family to which the person belonged. Hence the Julii Caesares, Cornelii Scipiones, etc. This name can often develop to have a descriptor of the entire family in it.

In the event that a cognomen is used in the latter fashion, a further name may be adopted by an individual to distinguish themselves. Hence among the Cornelii Scipiones, for example, Cornelius Scipio Barbatus and Cornelius Scipio Africanus are different people.

In your character's case, I'd say it would be best to do as follows:

Praenomen and Nomen: just pick. Wikipedia has a huge list of them. They generally don't mean anything.

The next two are a little harder.

Cognomen: Here we need to make something translating roughly as 'from the enemies of x'. This concept, of an entire family being based on opposition to another group, was rare at best in Roman culture, which I'm just going to interpret as a positive here. Historically, names like Africanus generally wouldn't be inherited, though later this trend broke down--I believe multiple Claudii inherited the name Germanicus, for example. Unfortunately, there isn't really a Latin word for 'Elf'. The closest equivalent is probably the Dryad, hence, "Dryadicus" would be appropriate, or something similar such as "Nymphicus" or even possibly "Satyricus". Alternatively, one could transliterate Elf, for something like "Elficus", though I'm sure my classics professors would not be happy with my coining that term. It doesn't really sound at all Latin, though.

[The name after cognomen]: Next, we'd need to add "From the white land". Frankly, there's no way to come up with a phrasing for "white land" that doesn't sound awkward, though technically Albaterrius wouldn't be incorrect. Alternatively, going out on a limb that "white land" is referring to either a desert or a polar wilderness, which would respectively be [H]eremi[u]s (bracketed letters are optional) or (there's no Latin word for tundra so I'll bother the name of Aquilon, the North Wind) "Aquilis".

Now, one last thing to note. You can, if you need to further distinguish yourself, add another post-cognomen. If you do, and you're worried about having too many names, you can simply delete your gens name, move cognomen to nomen, etc.

There is one thing that this character is not worried about. And that is having too many names. That his name will become longer as he continues his journey is amazing.

Thanks for this information. I'll be able to do a lot more with this than just pick a name. I've already got a few ideas :smallsmile:

Thrudd
2017-09-17, 07:50 PM
Thank you for all of that information!

Yeah, I figure that I'd be bastardising Latin enough that throwing the timeline out the window is par for the course :smallbiggrin:

That I don't need to pay attention to the word order is both relieving (because I can do what sounds better) and terrifying (because it will be so easy to mess it up). And while the timeline isn't something I'm worried about messing with, there's a fine line I want to toe where it still makes sense and isn't butchered too badly.

Albae Terrae Filius works. Part of the character is that his name is (comparatively) ridiculously long, but you can't take any of it out.

After your explanation of Inimici, I feel it fits even more into his story and would be a quirk of his family. The creator of this family line had a hate against an elf, his son took upon the mantle when they passed because the elves live for much longer than humans do. And then the name just stuck.

You've lost me on parisyllabic 3rd declension, so I'll just refer you to my original post. I don't even think it's a "proper" Latin word. But, if it is, it is preferable to stay as Dryadalis or as close to it as possible.

The family - regardless of how long they've been around - will not have shortened their name. It's one of the quirks that came up while playing.



Oh, I know dryadalis isn't a latin word. But if these guys speak latin-ish/fantasy latin, they would take a non-latin word and latinize it to conform to their grammar, as was commonly done with Greek names.

Wherever the word "dryadalis" came from in your world, the latin speakers would need to fit it into their noun system of case endings, so they could tell where it belongs in relation to the other words in a sentence and whether it is singular or plural. Even people's personal names get different endings so you can tell how they fit in the sentence - Julius is the one doing something, but if he's having something done to him it is Julium, and if someone is giving something to him it's Julio, and if the subject of the sentence belongs to him it's Julii.

So that's what I was doing for dryadalis.
Since it's ending already fits into a common type of latin noun, I'd think they'd just treat it like that sort of noun and use the appropriate endings when incorporating it into latin writing or speech.

SpamCreateWater
2017-09-17, 09:17 PM
Oh, I know dryadalis isn't a latin word. But if these guys speak latin-ish/fantasy latin, they would take a non-latin word and latinize it to conform to their grammar, as was commonly done with Greek names.

Wherever the word "dryadalis" came from in your world, the latin speakers would need to fit it into their noun system of case endings, so they could tell where it belongs in relation to the other words in a sentence and whether it is singular or plural. Even people's personal names get different endings so you can tell how they fit in the sentence - Julius is the one doing something, but if he's having something done to him it is Julium, and if someone is giving something to him it's Julio, and if the subject of the sentence belongs to him it's Julii.

So that's what I was doing for dryadalis.
Since it's ending already fits into a common type of latin noun, I'd think they'd just treat it like that sort of noun and use the appropriate endings when incorporating it into latin writing or speech.

Ah. I see.

So, taking as much of what everyone has said into consideration I will "update" the name.

When he is travelling outside of his homeland he will be known as Albiz Nivigenus to the outsiders.
Nivigenus being the adaptation of the above mentioned Terrigenus, but using the genitive form of Nix - Nivis - as he is from the snow.

While travelling within his homeland, or speaking to his people while outside his homeland, he will call himself Albae Terrae Filius Stirps/Stirpem Inimīcī Dryadalium .
Now, the bolded parts are what I'm having trouble with.
His name, which is also a title of sorts, is Son of the White Land of the Bloodline of the Foe of the Elves.

Do I have to link his "first name/title" with his "second name/title"?
I'm unsure what form of Stirps to use.
Using your above reasoning would Dryadalium be the "proper" adapted form for this?

Thrudd
2017-09-18, 12:23 AM
Ah. I see.

So, taking as much of what everyone has said into consideration I will "update" the name.

When he is travelling outside of his homeland he will be known as Albiz Nivigenus to the outsiders.
Nivigenus being the adaptation of the above mentioned Terrigenus, but using the genitive form of Nix - Nivis - as he is from the snow.

While travelling within his homeland, or speaking to his people while outside his homeland, he will call himself Albae Terrae Filius Stirps/Stirpem Inimīcī Dryadalium .
Now, the bolded parts are what I'm having trouble with.
His name, which is also a title of sorts, is Son of the White Land of the Bloodline of the Foe of the Elves.

Do I have to link his "first name/title" with his "second name/title"?
I'm unsure what form of Stirps to use.
Using your above reasoning would Dryadalium be the "proper" adapted form for this?

How did you get macrons in the forum? I had to install an addon to do that in my word processor. Are you just using the crazy long ascii codes to get them?

Yes, if you're literally trying to say son of white land of bloodline of enemy of elves, then you're going to have a long confusing string of genitives. Interpreting that would take some deduction based on context. It isn't unheard of, I've translated a few things with passages with strings of genitives close to this, but it does feel a little awkward with that many "of's" - though I suppose its awkwardness could lend itself to the air of pretentiousness. Putting the white land in front of the son does help a bit, though to differentiate in this case.

So, Albae Terrae (genitive singular white land) Filius (nominative singular son) Stirpis (singular genitive branch) Inimici (genitive singular enemy) Dryadalium (genitive plural elves).

Latin is very flexible and you can do what you want, but I have to say that using stirpis here feels out of place. the "stirps" is a branch off of a "gens" - so if you're announcing your branch it seems like you would also announce your clan/family name, unless you were announcing yourself only to others of the same clan.

And if you're an inimici, then I'd expect to have the name of an individual elf, or maybe elf should be singular (dryadalis) - like you're saying "my ancestor is the enemy of that elf" - and maybe everyone in the area knows who that elf was - like the infamous elf king who had a feud with your granddad. Or that this elf or a specific small group of elves has a vendetta against your ancestor personally (and not everyone else).
It's not really a title that I'd think someone would be proud of - but maybe your people don't know that *lol* - like he was called this by the elves, and he wore it like a badge of honor and it stuck, not really knowing that it is not complimentary to him.

SpamCreateWater
2017-09-18, 01:47 AM
How did you get macrons in the forum? I had to install an addon to do that in my word processor. Are you just using the crazy long ascii codes to get them?

Yes, if you're literally trying to say son of white land of bloodline of enemy of elves, then you're going to have a long confusing string of genitives. Interpreting that would take some deduction based on context. It isn't unheard of, I've translated a few things with passages with strings of genitives close to this, but it does feel a little awkward with that many "of's" - though I suppose its awkwardness could lend itself to the air of pretentiousness. Putting the white land in front of the son does help a bit, though to differentiate in this case.

So, Albae Terrae (genitive singular white land) Filius (nominative singular son) Stirpis (singular genitive branch) Inimici (genitive singular enemy) Dryadalium (genitive plural elves).

Latin is very flexible and you can do what you want, but I have to say that using stirpis here feels out of place. the "stirps" is a branch off of a "gens" - so if you're announcing your branch it seems like you would also announce your clan/family name, unless you were announcing yourself only to others of the same clan.

And if you're an inimici, then I'd expect to have the name of an individual elf, or maybe elf should be singular (dryadalis) - like you're saying "my ancestor is the enemy of that elf" - and maybe everyone in the area knows who that elf was - like the infamous elf king who had a feud with your granddad. Or that this elf or a specific small group of elves has a vendetta against your ancestor personally (and not everyone else).
It's not really a title that I'd think someone would be proud of - but maybe your people don't know that *lol* - like he was called this by the elves, and he wore it like a badge of honor and it stuck, not really knowing that it is not complimentary to him.

I use Alt codes if I can remember them, else I just use the wikipedia macron page and copy it.

The ancestor who created the family line isn't actually of the area; so between the passage of time and age-old language barriers I can see the pretentiousness (and not knowing what the inflection means) working :smalltongue: And, yes, the ancestor was an enemy of a particular elf. The story has evolved somewhat as I'm working through the history with the DM. So Dryadalis it is. If I were to put the elf's name in there, where should it go, and how would it affect Stirpis Inimīcī Dryadalis? Stirpis Inimīcī Elfdudeicus Dryadalis?

Well, if I have to announce my clan/family name as well as my branch - and why wouldn't I, it makes a longer name - then I guess it would be Albae Terrae Filius Stirpis Inimīcī Dryadalis Genitis Nivigenus? Or Gens Nivigenus? Or just Nivigenus?
Would Stirpis Inimīcī Dryadalis go before Genitis Nivigenus?

Thank you for this.

Thrudd
2017-09-18, 11:09 AM
I use Alt codes if I can remember them, else I just use the wikipedia macron page and copy it.

The ancestor who created the family line isn't actually of the area; so between the passage of time and age-old language barriers I can see the pretentiousness (and not knowing what the inflection means) working :smalltongue: And, yes, the ancestor was an enemy of a particular elf. The story has evolved somewhat as I'm working through the history with the DM. So Dryadalis it is. If I were to put the elf's name in there, where should it go, and how would it affect Stirpis Inimīcī Dryadalis? Stirpis Inimīcī Elfdudeicus Dryadalis?

Well, if I have to announce my clan/family name as well as my branch - and why wouldn't I, it makes a longer name - then I guess it would be Albae Terrae Filius Stirpis Inimīcī Dryadalis Genitis Nivigenus? Or Gens Nivigenus? Or just Nivigenus?
Would Stirpis Inimīcī Dryadalis go before Genitis Nivigenus?

Thank you for this.

I'd think you'd use either the name or the singular word for elf, but not both. The name's genitive form should end in "-is", most likely. The name of your gēns already has the word gēns mashed into it - you could still do it that way, though, that happens over time. If Nivigenus is the nominative form then genitive ends in "-ī". Gentis Nivigenī would say "of the clan of Nivigenus".
Again, you can put everything in any order, but you probably do want the branch name in front of the clan name, just to help make it understandable.

SpamCreateWater
2017-09-18, 06:29 PM
I'd think you'd use either the name or the singular word for elf, but not both. The name's genitive form should end in "-is", most likely. The name of your gēns already has the word gēns mashed into it - you could still do it that way, though, that happens over time. If Nivigenus is the nominative form then genitive ends in "-ī". Gentis Nivigenī would say "of the clan of Nivigenus".
Again, you can put everything in any order, but you probably do want the branch name in front of the clan name, just to help make it understandable.

Awesome. Thanks for your assistance with this :smallbiggrin:

KarlMarx
2017-09-18, 07:17 PM
Do I have to link his "first name/title" with his "second name/title"?
I'm unsure what form of Stirps to use.


No and Stirps is fine.

Again, many Romans, especially towards the later Empire, had well over half a dozen names. For example, the full name of the emperor Trajan is, I believe:

Imperator Caesar Marcus Nerva Traianus Ulpianus Divi Nervae filius Augustus

To be fair, some of those names are simply titles, not distinct to any one emperor. Nonetheless, the name roughly translates as "Emperor Caesar Marcus Nerva Trajan, once Ulpius, August son of Divine Nerva."

So the names being discussed aren't as improbable as we might think. Don't get me wrong, they're still horrendously improbable, but they're not beyond the pale in terms of what fantasy latin-esque cultures might generate. I don't see anything particularly wrong grammatically, though that's not to say the names don't read like gibberish in proper Latin.

Also remember that many names relied on ancient forms and thus would not be grammatically or linguistically correct within classical Latin, which generally isn't considered to have 'begun' before the end of the Republic (a period which, in turn, most would say began either a) with the sack of Carthago in 143 BCE or b) the assassination of Tribune Tiberius Sempronius Gracchus in 133 BCE). Thus, you can always say the name comes from an archaic period of the language within its fantasy continuity.

As an aside, I love the idea of adding new names to reflect your experiences. It's totally something the Romans did, if not in abundance, and seems perfect for an adventurer.