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rferries
2017-09-19, 06:11 AM
Fighter



https://i.imgur.com/vhW3Jhp.jpg?2
https://i.imgur.com/nB0dKze.jpg?2
https://i.imgur.com/HaTNgtj.jpg?2



Soldiers and mercenaries, conquerors and guardians, tyrants... and heroes.


Alignment
Any.

Hit Die
d12.

Class Skills
The fighterís class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (architecture and engineering, dungeoneering, geography, local, history, the planes) (Int), Listen (Wis), Perform (oratory) (Cha), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Speak Language (none), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Rope (Dex).

Skill Points at 1st Level
(4 + Int modifier) ◊4.

Skill Points at Each Additional Level
4 + Int modifier.

Table: The Fighter


Level
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Special


1st

+1



+2



+2



+0


Armour Training, Shield Training, Weapon Training


2nd

+2



+3



+3



+0


Athleticism, Combat Medic, Veteran's Intuition


3rd

+3



+3



+3



+1


Brawler, Rally The Troops


4th

+4



+4



+4



+1


Bodyguard, Enchanted


5th

+5



+4



+4



+1


Powerful Build1 (Large), Slight Build (Small)


6th

+6/+1



+5



+5



+2


Alacrity (+10 feet, +1 attack), Vitality (+2)


7th

+7/+2



+5



+5



+2


Throw Mastery


8th

+8/+3



+6



+6



+2


Improved Athleticism


9th

+9/+4



+6



+6



+3


Adventurer


10th

+10/+5



+7



+7



+3


Powerful Build (Huge), Slight Build (Tiny)


11th

+11/+6/+1



+7



+7



+3


Improved Veteran's Intuition


12th

+12/+7/+2



+8



+8



+4


Alacrity (+20 feet, +2 attacks), Vitality (+4)


13th

+13/+8/+3



+8



+8



+4


Tough As Nails


14th

+14/+9/+4



+9



+9



+4





15th

+15/+10/+5



+9



+9



+5


Powerful Build (Gargantuan), Slight Build (Diminutive)


16th

+16/+11/+6/+1



+10



+10



+5





17th

+17/+12/+7/+2



+10



+10



+5





18th

+18/+13/+8/+3



+11



+11



+6


Alacrity (+30 feet, +3 attacks), Vitality (+6)


19th

+19/+14/+9/+4



+11



+11



+6





20th

+20/+20/+20/+20



+12



+12



+12


Legendary Champion, Powerful Build (Colossal), Slight Build (Fine)



1The values given in the table for this ability assume a fighter of base size Medium.

Class Features

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Fighters are proficient with all weapons (simple, martial, and exotic), with all types of armor (heavy, medium, and light), and with shields (including tower shields).

Armour Training (Ex)
A fighter reduces the armour check penalty of any armour he wears by 1 per class level, and increases the maximum Dexterity bonus of that armour by the same amount. He also reduces the arcane spell failure of that armour by 5% per class level.

Furthermore, a fighter treats any armour he wears as being 5% lighter per class level, reducing his encumbrance by that amount. Armour with an effective weight of 30 pounds or less is treated is medium armour, armour with an effective weight of 25 pounds or less is treated as light armour, and armour with an effective weight of 5 pounds or less is treated as being unarmoured (for the purpose of movement speed, class features with armour restrictions, and so forth).

Shield Training (Ex)
A fighter gains all the benefits of Armour Training (see above) for any shield he uses. Additionally, any shield bonus to his Armour Class (even from the Two-Weapon Defense feat, and to a maximum of his class level) also applies to his touch AC and to his saves against gaze attacks, breath weapons, bursts, rays, emanations, lines, and any effect requiring a Reflex save.

Weapon Training (Ex)
Whenever a fighter selects a feat that applies a benefit to a specific weapon (e.g. Weapon Focus, Improved Critical, etc), he applies the benefits of that feat to all weapons that could be selected for that feat. Furthermore, all weapons a fighter wields are treated as light weapons for the purposes of the Weapon Finesse feat. Finally, a fighter may use his Strength modifier in place of his Dexterity modifier on attack rolls with thrown or ranged weapons.

Athleticism (Ex)
Beginning at 2nd level, a fighter adds one-half his class level as a bonus on Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Jump, Ride, Swim, and Tumble checks. He may always take 10 on those checks, even if rushed or threatened.

Combat Medic (Ex)
At 2nd level, a fighter gains a bonus on Heal checks equal to one-half his class level. Furthermore, patients under his care recover from ability drain as though it were ability damage, and may substitute his Heal check result for their Fortitude saving throw when making saving throws to remove negative levels.

A fighter may make a Heal check (other than to provide long-term care) as an immediate action without provoking an attack of opportunity. He may also drink or administer a potion as an immediate action without provoking an attack of opportunity.

At the end of an encounter a fighter may make a Heal check for up to 8 wounded characters present. An amount of lethal damage suffered by each character (up to the Heal check result) is converted into an equal amount of nonlethal damage.

Veteran's Intuition (Ex)
Beginning at 2nd level, a fighter adds one-half his class level as a bonus on Listen, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot checks. Additionally, a fighter who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door or a trap is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if he were actively looking for it.

Brawler (Ex)
At 3rd level, whenever he makes a full attack a fighter may make an additional unarmed strike at his full base attack bonus -5, in addition to any other attacks he is allowed. He makes this attack as a punch, kick, or headbutt (so he can make it regardless of whether or not he has a free hand). The damage of this attack benefits from Powerful Build (see below).

Rally the Troops (Ex)
At 3rd level, a fighter gains either Fearsome Presence or Combat Inspiration (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?521615-Leadership-(revamped)) as a bonus feat.

Bodyguard (Ex)
At 4th level, as an immediate action a fighter may duplicate the effects of a shield other spell between himself and any number of friendly characters he is adjacent to or sharing a space with. This is a nonmagical effect.

Enchanted (Ex)
At 4th level, a fighter gains Enchanted (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?534772-A-few-simple-feats-(Enchanted-Flight-Insightful-Strike)&p=22336997#post22336997) as a bonus feat.

Powerful Build (Ex)
Beginning at 5th level, a fighter is treated as a creature of his actual size or a creature one size larger (whichever is most beneficial to him at the time). His effective size increases by one step per four class levels, to a maximum of Colossal. Your natural weapons, unarmed strikes, and any weapons you wield are treated as weapons of your effective size for the purpose of damage die.

Slight Build (Ex)
Beginning at 5th level, a fighter is treated as a creature of his actual size or a creature one size smaller (whichever is most beneficial to him at the time). His effective size decreases by one step per four class levels, to a minimum of Fine. He gains a size bonus to his attacks and AC as appropriate for his effective size.

Alacrity (Ex)
Beginning at 6th level, a fighter may make a full attack as a standard action rather than a full-round action. Furthermore, he gains a +10 foot bonus to his movement speed and may make an extra attack at his full base attack bonus whenever he makes a full attack. These benefits improve to a +20 foot bonus and two extra attacks at 12th level, and to a +30 foot bonus and three extra attacks at 18th level.

Vitality (Ex)
Beginning at 6th level a fighter gains a +2 bonus to his Constitution, Dexterity, and Strength scores. This bonus increases to +4 at 12th level, and +6 at 18th level.

Throw Mastery (Ex)
At 7th level, a fighter becomes extraordinarily proficient at throwing weapons. As a free action he may throw a weapon or shield at a target within 30 feet, treating the throw in all ways as though he had just made a melee or ranged attack (his choice). Furthermore, he may cause the weapon to continue on and strike additional targets at his full base attack bonus, up to the maximum number of attacks he could make during a full attack (see Brawler, above, and Alacrity, below). Each target must be within 30 feet of the last and no target can be hit more than once per throw. At the end of his turn, the weapon or shield returns to his hand (or falls at his feet in his square, at his option). Whenever a fighter uses this ability, he must wait 1d4 rounds before using it again.

A fighter of at least Large size (see Powerful Build, above) also gains the ability to throw rocks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/giant.htm) as a giant of his size.

Improved Athleticism (Ex)
Beginning at 8th level, a fighter gains a climb and swim speed each equal to one-half his land speed. Additionally, he becomes immune to damage from falling (and may share that immunity with up to a heavy loads' worth of creatures he is carrying). Finally, subtract the vertical reach (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/jump.htm) for a creature of his effective size (see Powerful Build, above) from the height he wishes to jump before calculating a Jump DC.

Adventurer (Ex)
At 9th level, a fighter is adept at rapidly travelling to other locations and even to other planes of existence, usually by mundane means (carts, ships, caravans, etc.) but occasionally with magical assistance (friendly wizard contacts, ancient portals only the fighter knows about, etc.). Once per week he may duplicate the effects of shadow walk as a spell-like ability, save that the effect is nonmagical for the purposes of antimagic fields, dimensional locks, and the like.

Improved Veteran's Intuition (Ex)
A fighter of at least 11th level has developed "hunches" that verge on the prescient. He gains blindsense out to 5 feet per two class levels. If he possesses the Blind-Fight feat, his blindsense improves to blindsight. Furthermore, he gains the ability to duplicate the effects of divination and discern location each once per day as spell-like abilities, save that the effects are nonmagical.

Tough As Nails (Ex)
At 13th level, a fighter wearing armour gains hardness 1 if itís light armor, 2 if itís medium armor, and 3 if itís heavy armor. This hardness is multiplied by the enhancement bonus of the armour (e.g. a suit of +3 full plate would grant the fighter hardness 9), and stacks with all other forms of hardness, damage reduction, and energy resistance. Energy damage and attacks from ranged weapons are not halved or quartered before applying this hardness.

Legendary Champion (Ex)
At 20th level, a fighter's Will save (as calculated from his class levels) increases to one-half his class level + 2. Furthermore, whenever he makes a full attack all his iterative attacks (including the attack from Brawler, above) are made at his full attack bonus.


I'm not too familiar with maneuvers but I do know they're commonly criticised as being too "anime"/magical for a supposed non-magical class. This fighter will still be superhuman, but hopefully in slightly more believable ways (think Conan's great strength, Xena's incredible agility, Roy's intellect and social skills, etc.). One idea I've incorporated here was mimicking supernatural effects through mundane means (e.g. instead of freedom of movement they get a big bonus on Escape Artist checks).

Skill-wise, they have everything the need to be an army drummer, chief of police, avaricious mercenary, caravan guard, etc. Suppose I could have thrown in Hide & Move Silently too for urban thugs/special forces in an army, but those roles are better filled by multiclass fighter-rogues.

They can use any weapon, and use their shields to block some supernatural effects to an extent.

They have limited healing abilities, more useful at lower levels, and the ability to officially "tank" via Bodyguard.

I did give them the Enchanted feat, but that can be altered to a nonmagical benefit.

They are so strong/agile/adept at controlling a fight that they can act as creatures of larger or smaller size.

They can throw weapons/shields a la Xena or Captain America, and also Jump tremendous distances, to help them "fly"and otherwise reach aerial opponents.

They can "teleport" and "scry" to an extent.

Any other niches that need filling, to bump them up another tier or two? They're meant to complement the Revised Bard, Paladin, and Ranger classes. I realise I didn't give them fighter bonus feats, so that's another option.

AOKost
2017-09-19, 03:01 PM
My initial thoughts and feelings are that I would LOVE to play this fighter variant! It's everything that a Fighter should be, but is usually only piecemieled off.

The only kibitz I have before really trying to PEACH it right now is in the description of Alacrity, when you indicate the bonuses by level, you give 6th level twice, I believe the second should be 12th level.

rferries
2017-09-19, 08:06 PM
My initial thoughts and feelings are that I would LOVE to play this fighter variant! It's everything that a Fighter should be, but is usually only piecemieled off.

The only kibitz I have before really trying to PEACH it right now is in the description of Alacrity, when you indicate the bonuses by level, you give 6th level twice, I believe the second should be 12th level.

Whoops thanks, good catch!

nonsi
2017-09-19, 11:36 PM
.

I'm having a problem visualizing effective size shift of more than one step as "believable".
How are you supposed to squeeze somewhere that would make a kobold get stuck?
Equally unbelievable is a halfling performing an arm-bar on a titan. It's mechanically impossible, no matter how awesome you are.

OTOH, I'd spread improved iterative attack rolls evenly over multiple levels.
Example:
- level 6: +6/+2
- level 11: +11/+8/+5
- level 16: +16/+14/+12/+10
- level 20: +20/+19/+18/+17
You could combine it with Alacrity, which would justify advancing Alacrity bonuses a bit faster.
Both improvements would offset radical size-steps nicely and would be a lot more believable.


Also, no point in a fighter being proficient with all exotic weapons. Your Fighter is already quite front loaded.
Start with one at 1st and grant additional exotic weapons every few levels.


I also didn't notice anything that counters heavy armor speed reduction anywhere.


Finally, your Fighter is quite fragile when it comes to fear, compulsion, possession and everything else that involves direct mental influence.
Contrary to rogues that don't usually take the front line, all of the fighter's enemies are going to notice him as a threat. A manipulator will have a party with your Fighter.
If not good Will saves, your Fighter needs something to represent tenacity and battle hardiness.


[EDIT:]

Not crucial as the above, but still an issue on my part...
Some skills you've added as class skills are irrelevant to a combat powerhouse and inappropriate:
- Disguise
- Knowledge (the planes)
- Perform (any of them)
- Search
- Use Rope
1. They can be taken as C-C skills.
2. No justification in stepping on the toes of skillmoneys. Multiclassing is not a bad language. 3e provides more than enough to custom-made the character you envision.

rferries
2017-09-21, 04:18 AM
.

I'm having a problem visualizing effective size shift of more than one step as "believable".
How are you supposed to squeeze somewhere that would make a kobold get stuck?
Equally unbelievable is a halfling performing an arm-bar on a titan. It's mechanically impossible, no matter how awesome you are.

OTOH, I'd spread improved iterative attack rolls evenly over multiple levels.
Example:
- level 6: +6/+2
- level 11: +11/+8/+5
- level 16: +16/+14/+12/+10
- level 20: +20/+19/+18/+17
You could combine it with Alacrity, which would justify advancing Alacrity bonuses a bit faster.
Both improvements would offset radical size-steps nicely and would be a lot more believable.

Also, no point in a fighter being proficient with all exotic weapons. Your Fighter is already quite front loaded.
Start with one at 1st and grant additional exotic weapons every few levels.

I also didn't notice anything that counters heavy armor speed reduction anywhere.

Finally, your Fighter is quite fragile when it comes to fear, compulsion, possession and everything else that involves direct mental influence.
Contrary to rogues that don't usually take the front line, all of the fighter's enemies are going to notice him as a threat. A manipulator will have a party with your Fighter.
If not good Will saves, your Fighter needs something to represent tenacity and battle hardiness.

[EDIT:]

Not crucial as the above, but still an issue on my part...
Some skills you've added as class skills are irrelevant to a combat powerhouse and inappropriate:
- Disguise
- Knowledge (the planes)
- Perform (any of them)
- Search
- Use Rope
1. They can be taken as C-C skills.
2. No justification in stepping on the toes of skillmoneys. Multiclassing is not a bad language. 3e provides more than enough to custom-made the character you envision.

1) Powerful/Slight build are very much "artificial" and will need some creative interpretations. A Hercules-type halfling might directly armwrestle a giant, but a Drizzt-type warrior could leap onto the giant's shoulders and grapple it by pulling its ponytail from behind or somesuch - or have an expert knowledge of pressure points and the like to restrain the giant. The only mechanics are rolling the grapple checks; the exact form that grapple takes is up to the PC's imagination.

2) That's a good way of progressing the ability but it'd be a pain to type up (and might get complex with multiclassing). I'll keep the capstone reward for players who do a straight 20 levels of fighter.

3) A PC is very unlikely to use more than one exotic weapon, so proficiency with all exotic weapons is little more than getting Exotic Weapon Proficiency as a bonus feat. Similarly, he's unlikely to get much use out of Weapon Training (except when dual-wielding with 2 different weapons). I've added a class level limit to Shield Training as well, so all other early features are dependent on sticking with the class.

4) I tend to be too wordy in my writeups, movement speed was buried in here:


Armour with an effective weight of 30 pounds or less is treated is medium armour, armour with an effective weight of 25 pounds or less is treated as light armour, and armour with an effective weight of 5 pounds or less is treated as being unarmoured (for the purpose of movement speed, class features with armour restrictions, and so forth).

5) Hmmmmm you have a point about mind control, but I definitely went with the "fighters are tough, agile, but vulnerable to Will saves" concept. Perhaps the Shield Training could just be a flat bonus to saves? I liked the idea of letting one's shield take the brunt of dragon's breath and fireballs, but maybe it could help block line of effect for charm spells too? The capstone ability grants good Will saves, at least.

Alternatively, this could encourage the party caster's to be team players and dish out more protection spells...

6) For skills I definitely went overboard. My rationale was:
-Disguise for when the daring heroes need to infiltrate a hostile cult/city -however they can just slap on robes and use Bluff, Disguise is more for Rogues impersonating specific individuals. Deleted.
-Perform for various army morale roles - generals orating to troops, legions singing war songs, trumpets/drums of marching bands... however they can just take Skill Focus (Perform) if they're that specialised. Whittled down to Perform (oratory) for fighters who are also party leaders/generals and need to inspire their troops.
-Search is an "adventurer" skill, plus fits the "guard/policeman" archetype, so I'll keep it.
-Use Rope is for soldiers who take enemy prisoners/police who restrain criminals/mercenaries who perform kidnappings, so I'll keep it too.

7) Yeah, multiclassing is always an option but I think most of the edits I've made fit "fighter" design. Also note this is a series of revised classes, so power levels have been bumped, including skill points as you say.

In fact, I might reduce Barbarians and Rogues to being sub-classes within fighter... they're the "non-magical classes" so arguably they could be one class adapted to multiple niches.

Thanks as always for the feedback!

Westhart
2017-09-21, 09:50 AM
Alright, exams and other college studies eased off for a momento, so I'll peach this real quick then go work some more on some other projects that have been in progress for awhile :smallbiggrin:. If I come off as rude/abrupt I am sorry, just trying to do this real quick.

All exotic... I am unsure whether for retraining that would count as feats for each but I would put a sentence just in case!

Armour training: Why does this reduce ASF? You do not have any subclassing (like 5e) where the fighter can cast minor spells... on second thoughts this might be nice for gishes, who do not get as many nice things as the wizard...

Shield training: There was a feat that gave similar so this is fine, in fact I like this.

Ath.: Like this, although most the times I aim for a competence bonus with classes, I feel that these are fine (not something you can do ridiculous stuff with, and your not using homebrew where spellcraft checks modify spell saves or anything strange, so these are good!

Since you are thinking about the barb, rogue as fighter subtypes I suggest you make this a subtype, gaining the ability to heal faster, and possibly Heal (ex) as a capstone? Otherwise I would allow them to make heal actions and administer potions as a swift action... maybe a move that does not provoke AoO. (Versus AoO & standard). This ability is unique, but at later levels (not sure when exactly, AFB) it will be easily outpaced, especially by heal

Vet Int: So you took the elf racial ability (believe there was a feat that allowed anyone w/trapfinding to detect the same way) and on top of that gave them a bonus to some decent skills. I would suggest you drop search (no trapfinding) and maybe give them intimidate ("What do ye know o' pain, see this 'ere scar boyo?") along with changing the bonus to competence (to avoid the christmas tree problem and stacking)

Brawler: I like this, suggest reducing the penalty at later levels, possibly a -2 (like twf)?

Rally the troops: This is nice, and even if you split this into subclasses (one of the things I like about 5e) I would suggest letting this stay universal, or giving the intimidate to barb subclass and make a commander (marshal, but better) subclass that gets combat inspiration

Bodyguard: Hmm, what if it is like below:
WFWR
Where w is a wizard, F is our lovely fighter, and r for the rogue attacking the wizard... How does he protect that way? I would suggest making this a Su or just leave it how it is because I'm overthinking things ^^

Enchanted: This is nice, no reliance on the local wizard/cleric for GMW/MV, although you'll still want the +1 to add enchantments to your weapon... Hmm, maybe make a fighter only feat that is an upgrade of your enchanted, and allows for a +1 special bonus at certain levels? So you could get flaming etc? It would obviously require the enchanted feat, nd maybe a few other prereqs, but it sounds like an interesting idea... FFT (food for thought; if I make up an acronym you don't know just ask me ><)

Powerful & Slight Build: Beautiful!

Alacrity: Like the speed bonus, nice enough not to step on the monk's territory, not too bad to be useless. I would be weary of the full as standard, especially with dipping swordsage for some diamond mind stuff... If in a campaign with that I would say that you can not use both at the same time... but then again, I made the mistake of letting a wizard take lesser celerity XD

Vitality: Nice

Throw Mastery: this + quickdraw can be devastating seeing that they are free actions... I would suggest making it a swift action since that is 1/turn. BELAY that, I didn't see the 1d4 round penalty... also you say "and Alacrity below" It should be above. Well, treating it as melee or ranged is nice, let's you add str to damage w/ thrown weapons... Not sure that was the point...

Imp Ath: That's 30'... assuming base 30 and levels of fighter giving +30'... not bad, but feel like this is moving in on monk territory even more... but then monks are rather... ****ty. The immunity to fall damage is what the monk's hould have been outright, no next to wall, and +10' (20'?) per two levels.

Adv: I don't know on this one... I feel it should be more Su, but I like the concept... really it is the whole "edge of the material/shadow planes" thing in the desc... I can imagine a player trying to use this as an extraplanar travel that is extroadinary... 3 levels earlier then a wizard, and 4 then a bard (12th & 13th respectively)

Imp Vet Int: Nice! I would personally give them a small chance 5%, 1%? of not using the spell like's accurately since it is more intuitive then spell... Of course I love wild magic and other random elements... so much that most of the party has bane (Chaotic outsiders) on their weapons XD

Hard as nails: I like the concept, but mechanic wise it might be better to just throw out DR X/- as giving characters a hardness for wearing armor is unusual. (I personally have no problem with it.)

Legendary Champion: I would give them an inherent bonuses on all saves... (Maybe 1/2 level) making them pretty much mage/dragon/psion/the weird thing in the corner/etc slayers etc Jumping to good saves right away? Kind of meh in my book.

Other Abilities You might Add:
Evasion? Not sure if you had it, but if you do I would allow it to be used in even heavy armor
Mettle? This one is nice for the fort saves and will saves, also helps cover your bad will somewhat.
Improved of either: While there is not a sourcebook (that I have) that gives Improved mettle I just follow the Impr evasion desc, adding these three would probabaly vault this up in power a bit, since you now are heavily resistant to magic with saves... (I think?)
Uncanny Dodge: This is an alright ability, and if you have it you can throw in Imp Unc Dodge to fill a later dead level...

As to making subclasses:
I recently (like last week) picked up the players handbook 5e, and its subclass system I really loved (Along with the idea of ritual casting... which I did not even read what it does, just looked at the feat but I already have a magic system idea now XD). While I love how you can multiclass between everything (3.5) (maybe a feat that allows for additional subclass abiltiies, to represent barb/rogue, commander/? etc?) it was really nice.

Some possible subclass ideas and abilities:

Barbarian

Rogue--- Iffy on the whole rogue thing...
Eldritch Knight: A gish type class, casting that caps at 4-7
This would have channel spell and comp, also a reason to keep the ignore ASF for the armor ability.
Commander: Not a huge fan of the old marshal
For this one you should see some of the 5e abilities of the fighter, I beleive they absorbed the marshal and made it much better.
Duelist: The usual fencer type
Dex to damage, specialty with one handed light weapons or using rapier and dagger (fancy name for that one), parry ability etc

All in all this class looks great, although they could use a little something at later levels, as it seems rather front loaded...

rferries
2017-09-21, 10:17 PM
Alright, exams and other college studies eased off for a momento, so I'll peach this real quick then go work some more on some other projects that have been in progress for awhile :smallbiggrin:. If I come off as rude/abrupt I am sorry, just trying to do this real quick.

All exotic... I am unsure whether for retraining that would count as feats for each but I would put a sentence just in case!

Armour training: Why does this reduce ASF? You do not have any subclassing (like 5e) where the fighter can cast minor spells... on second thoughts this might be nice for gishes, who do not get as many nice things as the wizard...

Shield training: There was a feat that gave similar so this is fine, in fact I like this.

Ath.: Like this, although most the times I aim for a competence bonus with classes, I feel that these are fine (not something you can do ridiculous stuff with, and your not using homebrew where spellcraft checks modify spell saves or anything strange, so these are good!

Since you are thinking about the barb, rogue as fighter subtypes I suggest you make this a subtype, gaining the ability to heal faster, and possibly Heal (ex) as a capstone? Otherwise I would allow them to make heal actions and administer potions as a swift action... maybe a move that does not provoke AoO. (Versus AoO & standard). This ability is unique, but at later levels (not sure when exactly, AFB) it will be easily outpaced, especially by heal

Vet Int: So you took the elf racial ability (believe there was a feat that allowed anyone w/trapfinding to detect the same way) and on top of that gave them a bonus to some decent skills. I would suggest you drop search (no trapfinding) and maybe give them intimidate ("What do ye know o' pain, see this 'ere scar boyo?") along with changing the bonus to competence (to avoid the christmas tree problem and stacking)

Brawler: I like this, suggest reducing the penalty at later levels, possibly a -2 (like twf)?

Rally the troops: This is nice, and even if you split this into subclasses (one of the things I like about 5e) I would suggest letting this stay universal, or giving the intimidate to barb subclass and make a commander (marshal, but better) subclass that gets combat inspiration

Bodyguard: Hmm, what if it is like below:
WFWR
Where w is a wizard, F is our lovely fighter, and r for the rogue attacking the wizard... How does he protect that way? I would suggest making this a Su or just leave it how it is because I'm overthinking things ^^

Enchanted: This is nice, no reliance on the local wizard/cleric for GMW/MV, although you'll still want the +1 to add enchantments to your weapon... Hmm, maybe make a fighter only feat that is an upgrade of your enchanted, and allows for a +1 special bonus at certain levels? So you could get flaming etc? It would obviously require the enchanted feat, nd maybe a few other prereqs, but it sounds like an interesting idea... FFT (food for thought; if I make up an acronym you don't know just ask me ><)

Powerful & Slight Build: Beautiful!

Alacrity: Like the speed bonus, nice enough not to step on the monk's territory, not too bad to be useless. I would be weary of the full as standard, especially with dipping swordsage for some diamond mind stuff... If in a campaign with that I would say that you can not use both at the same time... but then again, I made the mistake of letting a wizard take lesser celerity XD

Vitality: Nice

Throw Mastery: this + quickdraw can be devastating seeing that they are free actions... I would suggest making it a swift action since that is 1/turn. BELAY that, I didn't see the 1d4 round penalty... also you say "and Alacrity below" It should be above. Well, treating it as melee or ranged is nice, let's you add str to damage w/ thrown weapons... Not sure that was the point...

Imp Ath: That's 30'... assuming base 30 and levels of fighter giving +30'... not bad, but feel like this is moving in on monk territory even more... but then monks are rather... ****ty. The immunity to fall damage is what the monk's hould have been outright, no next to wall, and +10' (20'?) per two levels.

Adv: I don't know on this one... I feel it should be more Su, but I like the concept... really it is the whole "edge of the material/shadow planes" thing in the desc... I can imagine a player trying to use this as an extraplanar travel that is extroadinary... 3 levels earlier then a wizard, and 4 then a bard (12th & 13th respectively)

Imp Vet Int: Nice! I would personally give them a small chance 5%, 1%? of not using the spell like's accurately since it is more intuitive then spell... Of course I love wild magic and other random elements... so much that most of the party has bane (Chaotic outsiders) on their weapons XD

Hard as nails: I like the concept, but mechanic wise it might be better to just throw out DR X/- as giving characters a hardness for wearing armor is unusual. (I personally have no problem with it.)

Legendary Champion: I would give them an inherent bonuses on all saves... (Maybe 1/2 level) making them pretty much mage/dragon/psion/the weird thing in the corner/etc slayers etc Jumping to good saves right away? Kind of meh in my book.

Other Abilities You might Add:
Evasion? Not sure if you had it, but if you do I would allow it to be used in even heavy armor
Mettle? This one is nice for the fort saves and will saves, also helps cover your bad will somewhat.
Improved of either: While there is not a sourcebook (that I have) that gives Improved mettle I just follow the Impr evasion desc, adding these three would probabaly vault this up in power a bit, since you now are heavily resistant to magic with saves... (I think?)
Uncanny Dodge: This is an alright ability, and if you have it you can throw in Imp Unc Dodge to fill a later dead level...

As to making subclasses:
I recently (like last week) picked up the players handbook 5e, and its subclass system I really loved (Along with the idea of ritual casting... which I did not even read what it does, just looked at the feat but I already have a magic system idea now XD). While I love how you can multiclass between everything (3.5) (maybe a feat that allows for additional subclass abiltiies, to represent barb/rogue, commander/? etc?) it was really nice.

Some possible subclass ideas and abilities:

Barbarian

Rogue--- Iffy on the whole rogue thing...
Eldritch Knight: A gish type class, casting that caps at 4-7
This would have channel spell and comp, also a reason to keep the ignore ASF for the armor ability.
Commander: Not a huge fan of the old marshal
For this one you should see some of the 5e abilities of the fighter, I beleive they absorbed the marshal and made it much better.
Duelist: The usual fencer type
Dex to damage, specialty with one handed light weapons or using rapier and dagger (fancy name for that one), parry ability etc

All in all this class looks great, although they could use a little something at later levels, as it seems rather front loaded...

All exotic weapons - I don't intend for it to count as feats (in the same way that fighters don't get Simple Weapon Proficiency and Martial Weapon Proficiency as feats at first level).

ASF - yeah this is very much something for the gishes. Won't make up for lost caster levels but it's something at least.

Combat Medic - I've loved you ideas re:swift actions, potions, and attacks of opportunity and I've incorporated them all (as immediate actions, even).

Veteran's Intuition - Intimidate is a flavourful addition but I do want to keep Search (the whole "adventurer" fighter theme - even if they can't disable a trap they can still spot it. I'm not too worried about stacking bonuses for these revised classes; the 1/2 class level bonus is based off the untyped bonus Bards get in Pathfinder for Bardic Knowledge.

Brawler - I dithered between making this a proper natural attack (possibly benefiting from Multiattack), or incorporating it into the capstone so that the -5 penalty is removed at 20th level. However it's meant to be just a minor extra attack, like in climactic duels in books/movies where the hero throws a punch/kick during a sword duel; I'll leave the penalty at -5.

Rally The Troops - I may just fully incorporate the ability into the class, and give the fighter the otption of only one skill (Diplomacy, Bluff, etc) as a class skill at character creation.

Bodyguard - very good point! I suppose I could steal the Aid Another restrictions, but I wanted the fighter to able to take some of the damage from ranged attacks and spells too... I suppose just handwave it as "the fighter reaches over his ally's shoulder to bat away the rogue's dagger with his sword" somehow.

Enchanted - great idea! Wish I'd thought of a feat chain for weapon/armour special abilities!

Alacrity - I don't know too much about swordsage/maneuvers/diamond mind (isn't that a monk ability?) abuse so I'll just have to plead ignorance and let the DM control broken interactions.

Throw Mastery - yeah, was meant to be a Xena type thing where at the start of each combat you'd hurl your chakram (or equivalent) and let it knock out a bunch of enemies while you use your sword in melee. It occurs to me that it's a rather specific ability,may have to excise it as a feat.

Adventurer - shadow walk is inferior to teleport and plane shift (Cleric 5th) for their specific purposes, but is more versatile in that it can semi-duplicate either effect. This ability comes online the same time they do and is useful more for story purposes (or perhaps a climactic escape). I agree the "nonmagical" thing is a real stretch (and I had to admit they might need wizards/portals anyways haha).

Improved Veteran's Intuition - this was meant to be another nonmagical effect - either you get "hunches" or you're informed by contacts of what's going on. Not as good as contact other plane obviously but I couldn't figure out how to make a mundane version of that.

Hard as nails - Hardness is rapidly becoming one of my favourite abilities, as it incorporates both DR and energy resistance... you have a point about a proper DR progression being easier to calculate though. I'll have a rethink.

Legendary Champion - jumping to a +12 Will save is clumsy, but I think bonuses to all saves might be troublesome if they're that high. I could give an inherent greater heroism instead.

Other Abilities:
I like all those suggestions! I may give them the option of choosing them (and of splitting Mettle into strictly Fort and Will saves); Uncanny Dodge is great "adventurer" flavour too.

Thanks and good luck on exams!

Westhart
2017-09-22, 07:10 AM
All exotic weapons - I don't intend for it to count as feats (in the same way that fighters don't get Simple Weapon Proficiency and Martial Weapon Proficiency as feats at first level).

My bad, overthought it ><


ASF - yeah this is very much something for the gishes. Won't make up for lost caster levels but it's something at least.

If you don't mindlosing 9's yu can take 4 levels then take a feat (can't remember name) that gives you +4 CL, can't pass your own HD.


Combat Medic - I've loved you ideas re:swift actions, potions, and attacks of opportunity and I've incorporated them all (as immediate actions, even).

Whoo


Veteran's Intuition - Intimidate is a flavourful addition but I do want to keep Search (the whole "adventurer" fighter theme - even if they can't disable a trap they can still spot it. I'm not too worried about stacking bonuses for these revised classes; the 1/2 class level bonus is based off the untyped bonus Bards get in Pathfinder for Bardic Knowledge.

Fair enough, but they can't find traps over DC 20 (30?) without trapfinding, just to note.


Brawler - I dithered between making this a proper natural attack (possibly benefiting from Multiattack), or incorporating it into the capstone so that the -5 penalty is removed at 20th level. However it's meant to be just a minor extra attack, like in climactic duels in books/movies where the hero throws a punch/kick during a sword duel; I'll leave the penalty at -5.

Fair enough


Rally The Troops - I may just fully incorporate the ability into the class, and give the fighter the otption of only one skill (Diplomacy, Bluff, etc) as a class skill at character creation.

Fair enough, although I personally would have to take bluff as those are the character types I prefer to play XP


Bodyguard - very good point! I suppose I could steal the Aid Another restrictions, but I wanted the fighter to able to take some of the damage from ranged attacks and spells too... I suppose just handwave it as "the fighter reaches over his ally's shoulder to bat away the rogue's dagger with his sword" somehow.

Ignore that! there is a feat (DotU?) that allows the same


Enchanted - great idea! Wish I'd thought of a feat chain for weapon/armour special abilities!

It's never too late :P


Alacrity - I don't know too much about swordsage/maneuvers/diamond mind (isn't that a monk ability?) abuse so I'll just have to plead ignorance and let the DM control broken interactions.

Basically gives them more actions by expending a swift, and yes I believe the monk has an ability of the same name, however diamond mind is also the name of the discipline.


Throw Mastery - yeah, was meant to be a Xena type thing where at the start of each combat you'd hurl your chakram (or equivalent) and let it knock out a bunch of enemies while you use your sword in melee. It occurs to me that it's a rather specific ability,may have to excise it as a feat.

I like it how it is, but as a free action you can theoretically throw an inf amount ('till you run out of ammo) I would make it a swift 1/round.


Adventurer - shadow walk is inferior to teleport and plane shift (Cleric 5th) for their specific purposes, but is more versatile in that it can semi-duplicate either effect. This ability comes online the same time they do and is useful more for story purposes (or perhaps a climactic escape). I agree the "nonmagical" thing is a real stretch (and I had to admit they might need wizards/portals anyways haha).

Improved Veteran's Intuition - this was meant to be another nonmagical effect - either you get "hunches" or you're informed by contacts of what's going on. Not as good as contact other plane obviously but I couldn't figure out how to make a mundane version of that.

Hard as nails - Hardness is rapidly becoming one of my favourite abilities, as it incorporates both DR and energy resistance... you have a point about a proper DR progression being easier to calculate though. I'll have a rethink.

These are good points


Legendary Champion - jumping to a +12 Will save is clumsy, but I think bonuses to all saves might be troublesome if they're that high. I could give an inherent greater heroism instead.

For the saves, you could give them all good, not too OP for a mellee in my opinion


Other Abilities:
I like all those suggestions! I may give them the option of choosing them (and of splitting Mettle into strictly Fort and Will saves); Uncanny Dodge is great "adventurer" flavour too.

Thanks and good luck on exams!
Yeah no problem!

Westhart
2017-10-17, 09:33 AM
It's been a while, but something just struck me, since the penalties from twf are to represent the attacks from BAB -5 for next etc (excluding the base -2 for TWF, talking about the others) would you say they still take the normal penalties from TWF, or just the -2? (So it would be 20/20/20/20 normally, then 18/18/18/18/18/13/8? or would they all be at +18 since he takes additional attacks at his full BAB?

rferries
2017-10-17, 10:06 AM
I had originally intended them to have full BAB with TWF, but given the extra attacks from Alacrity I think they should keep the penalties to their off-hand weapon.

Westhart
2017-10-17, 10:11 AM
I had originally intended them to have full BAB with TWF, but given the extra attacks from Alacrity I think they should keep the penalties to their off-hand weapon.

ah, alright :smallsmile:

Westhart
2017-10-17, 10:18 AM
I just realized that this is incredibly good (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Table_of_Creature_Size_and_Scale) if you think about it with the build traits... At least I think it works that way, since you are treated as that size whenever it is best and all... Might be a mistake in there, and I feel an incoming DMG or two :smallbiggrin:

rferries
2017-10-17, 08:09 PM
I just realized that this is incredibly good (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Table_of_Creature_Size_and_Scale) if you think about it with the build traits... At least I think it works that way, since you are treated as that size whenever it is best and all... Might be a mistake in there, and I feel an incoming DMG or two :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, it was intended to allow people to stay useful as grapplers (or bull rushes, overruns, etc.) throughout their career.

Westhart
2017-10-17, 08:14 PM
Yeah, it was intended to allow people to stay useful as grapplers (or bull rushes, overruns, etc.) throughout their career.

Makes me want to throw together a martial rogue instead of the caster rogue I intended for the next time I rejoin my game (when I get stable internet and a decent computer at home). Good class, wish that the TWF was at full BAB only because that would be great, something like fighter 20, then 30 levels of rogue stuff TWF + poison using my shadow death? (Yeah yeah, avg level is 50 where I play, although we have any where from 10th-125th level characters... mostly due to RHD) That sounds fun... Hmm... Might have to see if I can get the time to run a game :smallbiggrin:

Nice class as always!

rferries
2017-10-17, 08:21 PM
Makes me want to throw together a martial rogue instead of the caster rogue I intended for the next time I rejoin my game (when I get stable internet and a decent computer at home). Good class, wish that the TWF was at full BAB only because that would be great, something like fighter 20, then 30 levels of rogue stuff TWF + poison using my shadow death? (Yeah yeah, avg level is 50 where I play, although we have any where from 10th-125th level characters... mostly due to RHD) That sounds fun... Hmm... Might have to see if I can get the time to run a game :smallbiggrin:

Nice class as always!

Ha at those levels you might as well use full BAB for the TWF too :D

Westhart
2017-10-17, 08:24 PM
Ha at those levels you might as well use full BAB for the TWF too :D

Well, most games (I play in) have the race for high AC/Saves/etc cut down, and magic items are rare... An idea sponsored by the second DM I had, who tied Experience to Memory, thus the spamming of magic items was extremely rare, as you couldn't choose what memories you lost.

We also didn't use the ELH

rferries
2017-10-17, 08:25 PM
Well, most games (I play in) have the race for high AC/Saves/etc cut down, and magic items are rare... An idea sponsored by the second DM I had, who tied Experience to Memory, thus the spamming of magic items was extremely rare, as you couldn't choose what memories you lost.

We also didn't use the ELH

Said it before, I'll say it again - your campaigns always sound wild :D

Westhart
2017-10-17, 08:44 PM
Said it before, I'll say it again - your campaigns always sound wild :D

:smallwink: