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Shas aia Toriia
2007-08-14, 09:10 AM
I was looking through some books, and I realized that you can dual-wield a fullblade! For those who don't know, they are the equivalent of a Gargantuan shortsword (or huge longsword, or large greatsword).

Dealing 3d6 each, you can do (assuming a natural strength of 18) 42 damage, without a critical hit. AT LEVEL 1.

If this has been said before, tell me, I just thought it was cool. Because who doesn't like one-shotting the BBEG at level 1?

Ulzgoroth
2007-08-14, 09:19 AM
Er, how are you wielding a fullblade in one hand?

Darrin
2007-08-14, 09:27 AM
I was looking through some books, and I realized that you can dual-wield a fullblade! For those who don't know, they are the equivalent of a Gargantuan shortsword (or huge longsword, or large greatsword).


Huh? A Fullblade does 2d8 damage, not 3d6. It's not the same thing as a large greatsword. Actually, it's closer to a large-sized bastard sword.

And unless you're an ettin or two-headed thri-kreen, I don't see how you're going to dual wield two of 'em. A medium-sized creature can only wield a fullblade two-handed. You *can* TWF fullblade with armor spikes, but I would think that's not quite as impressive. A large creature or something with Powerful Build could dual-wield two fullblades, but all of those involve a LA of some sort.



Dealing 3d6 each, you can do (assuming a natural strength of 18) 42 damage, without a critical hit. AT LEVEL 1.


Average damage of two fullblade hits (assuming 18 Str) would be closer to 24. Maximum damage would be 38. Remember, you only get half strength on your offhand weapon.

OverdrivePrime
2007-08-14, 09:27 AM
Some wild combination of monkey grip and TWF, I assume. With the penalties you'd be piling up on this build at level 1, you'd be lucky to hit in a suprise encounter with the broad side of a barn, much less the BBEG. Of course there always is that 1 in 20 chance that one of your attacks will be successful.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-08-14, 09:34 AM
...monkey grip...

Monkey Grip does not allow you to wield a 2-handed weapon in one hand.

Catch
2007-08-14, 09:39 AM
Monkey Grip does not allow you to wield a 2-handed weapon in one hand.

Oversized TWF, however, does.

kjones
2007-08-14, 09:45 AM
A Fullblade is a Large weapon that does (According to the Arms and Equipment Guide) 2d8 damage, not 3d6. (and why on Earth would you think of it as a "gargantuan shortsword"? Besides being somewhat counterintuitive, a shortsword does piercing damage, while all those other swords are slashing.) You could wield one one-handed by taking the Monkey Grip feat, though this gives you a -4 to attack. With TWF, you'll take an additional -4 to hit with each fullblade, meaning you'll attack twice at -8/-8. Assuming Str 18, this means that at 1st level you'll be attacking at -3/-3. If you hit with both, (rather unlikely) you'll deal an average of 10 damage with each one, so that's 22 damage. Maximum damage would be 40, more on a critical hit (which is pretty much what you would need to hit something with this build.)

Now, take that same Fullblade, and put it in the hands of a two-handed power attacker. He will attack at +5, and do, on average, 2d8+6 (11) damage. If he Power Attacks for 1 (best he can do at first level) he'll be doing 2d8+8 (12) at +4 to hit.

So, your TWF build looks impressive at first, but let's run the numbers. Say they're fighting something with an AC of 15, not unreasonable at 1st level. With the TWF, you'd need an 18 to hit on each attack - that's a 15% chance of doing 10 damage for each attack, so that's an average of 4 damage per round. With the THF, you'd need a 12 to hit, which is a 45% chance of hitting on each attack for 12 damage - average of ~6 Damage per hit. Not too much better - until you consider that the TWF'er needs to make a full attack to do that well, and the THFer only needs to make a standard attack.

It gets worse at higher ACs.

AC 18
TWF: Hits on a 20, so 5% chance. That's an average of 1 damage per round, for two attacks.

THF: Hits on a 14, so 35% chance. That's an average of 4 damage per round.

And, of course, as they progress in levels, the THFer will be able to Power Attack for more and more damage, while the TWFer will basically be SOL.

So, this is a good idea only if you're really besotted by the idea of a feller running around waving two swords the size of Nebraska. Which I gotta admit is pretty cool.

EDIT: I guess I don't really know how Monkey Grip works. I suspect it works out to be about the same though.

Spiryt
2007-08-14, 09:49 AM
Oversized TWF, however, does.


Prerequisite: Str 13, Two-Weapon Fighting.
Benefit: When wielding a one-handed weapon in your offhand, you take penalties for fighting with two weapons as if you were wielding a light weapon in your offhand (see page 160 of the Player's Handbook).
Special: A fighter may select Over-sized Two-Weapon Fighting as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Explain, please.

Damionte
2007-08-14, 09:49 AM
You would need certain variants.

You'd need to be either a Half Giant, Half Ogre, or Goliath. Start as a fighter, and take Exotic weapon Full Blade, & Two weapon Fighting. (depending on how your GM handles level adjustments.

Attacking at -4 / -4

Or start as a fuman fighter and take those two plus monkey grip.

Attacking at -6 / -6

With traits and faws you could pick up possibly two more feats @ lvl 1.

The First example picking up Oversized two weapon fighting & weapon focus to lower the penalty to

-1 /-1

The second doing the same to lower the penalty to

-2 / -2.

Then add in whatever your strength bonus is. So yeah it's doable. I mean it already requires a 17 strength so it's not inconcievable for this build to have an 18 or 20 strength at lvl 1.

worst case they have the bare minimum to qualify and are doing the human non unearthed arcana build to start with a -3/-3 penalty. Or they have the full optimised build with the Big guys and be +4 /+4 or + 5 / +5 with the Half Ogre.

All of this also asumes your GM allows in the fulll blade as written, which is an unconverted 3.0 exotic weapon. Being an unconverted weapon some GM's may dissallow it, or convert it's stats to match those of a an oversized bastard sword which is what it represents.

Catch
2007-08-14, 10:00 AM
Explain, please.

Monkey Grip allows you to wield a weapon one size category larger than normal at a -2 penalty. A medium longsword becomes a large longsword, 1d8 -> 2d6, which is the same as a greatsword. Oversized TWF allows you to wield a medium weapon in your off-hand as a light weapon.

Technically, you're wielding two large longswords, but if another character picked one up, it'd be greatsword-sized for them.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-08-14, 10:03 AM
Oversized TWF, however, does.

No. OTWF will reduce the penalties for wielding a non-light weapon in your off-hand.

Spiryt
2007-08-14, 10:06 AM
Monkey Grip allows you to wield a weapon one size category larger than normal at a -2 penalty. A medium longsword becomes a large longsword, 1d8 -> 2d6, which is the same as a greatsword. Oversized TWF allows you to wield a medium weapon in your off-hand as a light weapon.

Technically, you're wielding two large longswords, but if another character picked one up, it'd be greatsword-sized for them.

So, technically, OTF with Monkey Grip allows you to make this.

But yes, it sounds right.

Still, the only thing this combination gives you - you look dumb :smallbiggrin:

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-08-14, 10:11 AM
So, technically, OTF with Monkey Grip allows you to make this.

Not technically, but it might appear so.


Still, the only thing this combination gives you - you look dumb :smallbiggrin:


Well there is also the -4 to your attacks and the expenditure of two feats.

RTGoodman
2007-08-14, 10:16 AM
But apparently almost everyone in this forum has still not read what Lord Silvanos posted earlier.

Just so everyone knows, there are three major problems with this plan:

1. You appear to be using the outdated weapon-size rules from 3.0. In 3.5, a Large longsword is not equivalent to a Medium bastard/greatsword. It's just a longsword designed for use by a Large character.

2. MONKEY GRIP DOES NOT LET YOU WIELD A TWO-HANDED WEAPON IN ONE HAND! (Addendum: Please don't bring in anything about using Monkey Grip and the goliath/half-whatever racial ability Powerful Build - they don't stack! You can't use them together! And if you try, you'll be flamed to death by a flurry of posters!)

3. OTWF also doesn't do what you say it does. It just lessens the penalties for wielding and oversized weapon (i.e., a one-handed weapon) in your off-hand, rather than a light weapon.

(EDIT: Technically, Catch's idea works, but I'm with acknowledging that it just makes your look silly.)

ZeroNumerous
2007-08-14, 10:22 AM
1: Large Longsword - 2d6 Damage. Medium Greatsword - 2d6. A large longsword is the equivalent of a medium greatsword.

2: No, but it lets you wield a large one-handed weapon which is the base equivalent of a medium two-handed weapon in one hand.

3: No one said it was optimal. Just that it was cool. (Honestly, two-weapon fighting with a pair of giant swords is kind of cool)

Spiryt
2007-08-14, 10:32 AM
3: No one said it was optimal. Just that it was cool. (Honestly, two-weapon fighting with a pair of giant swords is kind of cool)


We obviously have different definitions of coolness.

But yes, quite often, when you find something cool in D&D it comes to be higly weak mechanically. :smallannoyed:

JellyPooga
2007-08-14, 10:33 AM
1: Large Longsword - 2d6 Damage. Medium Greatsword - 2d6. A large longsword is the equivalent of a medium greatsword.


Except a Large Longsword is a 1-handed weapon and a Medium Greatsword is a 2-handed weapon...they might do the same damage, but they are different weapons. A medium creature trying to use a Large weapon suffers extra penalties for wielding a weapon not sized for them.

OverdrivePrime
2007-08-14, 10:43 AM
Fair enough. So what does allow a character to wield a two handed weapon in one hand? Are there rules somewhere on how this is treated?

An example, Haxor the level 8, strength 20 fighter is climbing a mountain when he's attacked by giant bats. Haxor, having used both Int and Wis as dump stats, has only brought his trusty greatsword with him, and forgot to bring his longsword, shortsword, daggers, gauntlets or any other items from his impressive collection of Things That Hurt Stuff.

By my reasoning, Haxor should be able to hold onto the mountain with one hand and with the other hand, swing his greatsword at the bats, but at a large penalty (-4 at least, probably more like -8). A greatsword isn't so ridiculously huge, heavy, or unwieldy that a sufficiently strong individual shouldn't be able to swing it one-handed, albeit at a large penalty to accuracy.

Darrin
2007-08-14, 11:31 AM
Fair enough. So what does allow a character to wield a two handed weapon in one hand? Are there rules somewhere on how this is treated?


There is no feat which allows this in 3.5. There are three two-handed weapons that have special conditions in their descriptions which allow you to use them as one-handed weapons: bastard sword, dwarven waraxe, and fullblade. Taking advantage of this generally requires taking the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat.

The 3.5 version of Monkey Grip, in addition to causing epic levels of confusion and frustration, only allows you to use an oversize weapon without increasing it's "handedness". Normally, if you tried to use a one-handed weapon that was a size larger, it would require two hands to wield properly, and would still have a -2 penalty for being the wrong size (no feat or ability ever printed anywhere can get rid of this size penalty).

The best way to dual-wield two fullblades would be a half-giant/half-ogre/goliath, or dual-wield two bastard swords and cast enlarge person or alter self on the character (although technically they wouldn't be fullblades, since 3.5 doesn't officially use "weapon equivalency" rules, they'd have the same stats as a fullblade).

Playing a thri-kreen, girallon, or grafting on some extra arms might allow multiple two-handed weapons, and adding an Extra Head template (i.e. as with an ettin) might produce some interesting results, but you're skirting awfully close to house rule territory there, and nowhere near ECL 1.

Darrin
2007-08-14, 11:37 AM
By my reasoning, Haxor should be able to hold onto the mountain with one hand and with the other hand, swing his greatsword at the bats, but at a large penalty (-4 at least, probably more like -8). A greatsword isn't so ridiculously huge, heavy, or unwieldy that a sufficiently strong individual shouldn't be able to swing it one-handed, albeit at a large penalty to accuracy.

Oh, and to add: While you can hold a two-handed weapon in one hand, and releasing one hand is usually considered a free action (such as reloading with bows), you must have both hands free to attack with a two-handed weapon. Unless you're using Slippers of Spiderclimb (and not the spell, which still requires one hand to maintain your grip), any climbing character can hold on with one hand but is prevented from using or making attacks with a two-handed weapon.

brian c
2007-08-14, 11:43 AM
If you really want to dual-wield fullblades, the best way to do it is to be a Large sized race such as Half-Ogre. Pick up OTWF and then your penalties won't be too absurd, but it'll still be very suboptimal. Also, since Half-Ogres have LA +2 (or LA +1 if you can convince your DM that only the SS one exists*) this isn't possible at first level.


*This also involves the assumption that your DM doesn't view SS as a totally broken book, as many on this board do. If your DM isn't familar with it though, you could sneak it under his/her nose and get a LA +1 Half-Ogre

Krellen
2007-08-14, 11:48 AM
Am I the only one that thinks 3.5's "weapon size" rules are needlessly complex compared to 3.0's equivalent?

Arbitrarity
2007-08-14, 11:52 AM
Probably. Just having "Large" "Medium" and "small" sized weapons, with the appropriate scaling (I.e. large creatures wield medium sized daggers, which are one handed to medium creatures, two handed to small creatures) would be much easier.

UserClone
2007-08-14, 04:36 PM
For what it's worth, I think it was more badass that my Anthropomorphic-Baleen-Whale Barbarian4 could wield a Mwk Large Fullblade at a +16 AB, and deal a minimum of 15 damage. Course, he was also a 16ft tall, 2800+ lb., blubbery, lumbering mass of death. Superbad.

Zincorium
2007-08-14, 04:44 PM
Also, just for the record, monkey grip specifically does not work with weapons wielded in your off hand or double weapons.

Anytime someone suggests MG in a build, I give it a 90% chance they have not read the feat recently and do not know jack about the details of how it works.

Matthew
2007-08-14, 04:47 PM
Gah!

Anyway, under 3.0 Rules for Monkey Grip, I think that this works. [Edit] Since a Full Blade is listed as a Huge Weapon, a Character would have to be Large to make use of the 3.0 version of Monkey Grip. Under 3.5 Rules it doesn't for a number of reasons, but one of the most important is that Monkey Grip does not apply to an Off Hand Weapon. [Edit] Ninja'd.

Dungeons & Dragons 3.0


MONKEY GRIP [GENERAL]
You use a wider variety of sizes of weapons.
Prerequisites: Base Attack Bonus +3, Weapon Focus with the appropriate weapon, Str 13+.
Benefit: You can use one melee weapon that is one size larger than you in one hand. For example, a halfling with the Monkey Grip feat can use a longsword in one hand. You suffer a 2 penalty on your attack roll when using this feat. This feat can be taken multiple times, each time with a different weapon.
Normal: Only weapons of your size or smaller can normally be wielded with one land.

Dungeons & Dragons 3.5


MONKEY GRIP [GENERAL]
You are able to use a larger weapon than other people your size.
Prerequisite: Base Attack Bonus +1.
Benefit: You can use melee weapons one size category larger than you are with a -2 penalty on the attack roll, but the amount of effort it rakes you to use the weapon does not change. For instance, a Large longsword (a one-handed weapon for a Large creature) is considered a two-handed weapon for a Medium creature that does not have this feat. For a Medium creature that has this feat, it is still considered one-handed weapon. You can wield a larger light weapon as a light weapon, or a larger two-handed weapon in two hands. You cannot wield a larger weapon in your off-hand, and you cannot use this feat with a double weapon.
Normal: You can use a melee weapon one size category larger than you are with a -2 penalty on the attack roll, and the amount of effort it takes to use the weapon increases. A larger light weapon is considered a one-handed weapon, a larger one-handed weapon is considered a two-handed weapon, and you cannot use a larger two-handed weapon at all.