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View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next Idea on Saving Throws



demonslayerelf
2017-10-11, 05:33 PM
Hello all.
For context, I was catching up on Critical Role, and I realized something.

There's a lot of different ways to get out of a scenario.
For instance; Rocks falling on your head?
Sure, you could dodge out of the way. Or you could reach up and catch them, or hunker down and minimize damage by being small and round. So would it be a dexterity save at that point?

I propose; Justified Saving Throws. No alterations to the script required, this is totally manageable without it.

If the character(Not necessarily PC) can justify a different type of saving throw, they can make it with disadvantage.

For instance, the rocks fall example? That could be a DC 15 Dexterity Saving Throw, or it could be a DC 15 Strength save with disadvantage, but it obviously couldn't be a Charisma, Wisdom, or Intelligence saving throw(Unless you had something like "Telekinesis" active, but I digress.)

Being possessed by a ghost? That could be a Charisma save as you reassert dominance in your own body, or it could be a wisdom saving throw with disadvantage as you close your mind to the ghost's influence.

Fireball thrown into your lap? Could be a Dex save, or you could curl into a tiny ball and make sure only your back gets torched with a Con save at disadvantage.


Any thoughts?

Ixidor92
2017-10-11, 08:56 PM
I think I actually may try using this at my next 5e session, it seems like a reasonable idea. The situation you want to avoid is having your players always try to reason "well I can use this stat instead for my character" for every single situation. What you may want to do is say when the event happens you can either make X save normally or X save at a disadvantage, giving the players a choice of saving throw each time, rather than giving them the ability to justify their own saving throw choice.

demonslayerelf
2017-10-11, 10:26 PM
Thanks for the response, and I hope it goes well for you and your group.

My Justification Response:
I mean, sure, you can do that, that's just fine.
But then it seems more of a... "Oh, the DM is giving me the answer" thing. And I get that's not a problem everyone has, but some of us do. It just seems like more of a planned thing. "Rocks are falling, you can either dodge with a dex save, or you can attempt to catch them with a strength save with disadvantage." It just gives the implication of "These are your only two options," whereas with just 1, it's clearly just a rules thing. But with a justification, the players feel clever about it; "Hey, can I make a wisdom saving throw with my "Gust of Wind" to try to blow the "Stinking Cloud" away, instead of a constitution saving throw?" It just makes you feel a bit better than the DM telling you, "You could also make this save instead."

My Argumentative Response:
I'd like to see a player try to justify dodging boulders with charisma, unless they're a bard/sorcerer/warlock with Telekinesis active at the time it happens.

ericgrau
2017-10-12, 01:10 PM
Note that disadvantage is similar to a -3*, so they better have both a high stat and a high save in the save they prefer, yet a low stat and a low save in the save they hate.

* I assume difficulties are typically 5 to 15 higher than the modifier. I think others use 1 to 20, but then why not -5 to 25? -10 to 30? 5 to 15 is more likely.

I agree that making the player bring it up is better, because it reduces wordiness. 90% of the time the player won't fight for a different save because of the above, so you're just wasting time when you talk more as the DM. The other 10% of the time when it matters the player will give it a shot. Plus it's more entertaining this way to see them talk themselves out of danger. Plus as the DM you can still offer the option if you feel like it.

LlamaGuru
2017-10-17, 01:24 AM
I agree that it reduces some of the flavour if you let the players know that this an option directly. I think it'll feel like a bigger reward if they've convinced you of an idea they have had to get out the situation. Although having said that, once it works for one player in a group the rest will probably start thinking more creatively to capitalise on it. I think this is a really cool idea and will definitely use it in my next campaign, if my players can think to get out of situations in an inventive way. I really like the idea of a paladin or armoured fighter hunkering down to reduce the damage from a fireball rather than dodge out of the way.

Andrezitos
2017-10-23, 02:41 PM
Very cool idea indeed. If my memory helps me, there is something somewhere, inside one of the many DMs guides, that says that players agency should go first than rules. Let them decide which course of action they should take. The DMs job is to give meaningful and structured parameters. Think about, what better way to say that a boulder is coming at you than simply saying "A cloud giant tosses a rock at you, what are you going to do?"?.

FreddyNoNose
2017-10-23, 02:51 PM
Hello all.
For context, I was catching up on Critical Role, and I realized something.

There's a lot of different ways to get out of a scenario.
For instance; Rocks falling on your head?
Sure, you could dodge out of the way. Or you could reach up and catch them, or hunker down and minimize damage by being small and round. So would it be a dexterity save at that point?

I propose; Justified Saving Throws. No alterations to the script required, this is totally manageable without it.

If the character(Not necessarily PC) can justify a different type of saving throw, they can make it with disadvantage.

For instance, the rocks fall example? That could be a DC 15 Dexterity Saving Throw, or it could be a DC 15 Strength save with disadvantage, but it obviously couldn't be a Charisma, Wisdom, or Intelligence saving throw(Unless you had something like "Telekinesis" active, but I digress.)

Being possessed by a ghost? That could be a Charisma save as you reassert dominance in your own body, or it could be a wisdom saving throw with disadvantage as you close your mind to the ghost's influence.

Fireball thrown into your lap? Could be a Dex save, or you could curl into a tiny ball and make sure only your back gets torched with a Con save at disadvantage.


Any thoughts?

So you want to make it easy mode? Why not get rid of ST?