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MeeposFire
2017-10-17, 11:16 PM
I am sure that this is not remotely new to this forum but I figured I would give this a shot for my own game. I am using some changes to some classes but I will mostly make this as if I made no changes to the 5e game. This will be made to be real bare bones to start. I will only comment on abilities that are not in the PHB, are new, or have been changed.

Swordmage

Hit dice: 1d10 per level

Proficiencies

Armor: light armor, medium armor
Weapons: simple weapons, martial weapons
tools: none

saving throws: Intelligence, constitution

skills: athletics, acrobatics, history, insight, intimidation, perception, persuasion, survival, arcana, investigation.


1. Warding, ritual book, sword bond
2. Fighting Style, spell casting
3. Swordmage tradition, bonus spells
4. ASI
5. War Magic, bonus spells
6. Swordmage tradition
7. Aegis
8. ASI
9. Bonus spells
10. Greater Warding
11. Elemental Strike
12. ASI
13. Bonus spells
14. Greater War Magic
15. Swordmage Tradition
16. ASI
17. Bonus spells
18. Improved Aegis
19. ASI
20. Capstone


Warding gives the swordmage a +1 AC when wielding a weapon and not wearing heavy armor. If the character wields a one handed weapon, no other weapon in the other, and no shield then the AC bonus increases to +3. This is your base warding bonus. If wielding a magical weapon with a permanent bonus to hit and damage (not given by a spell or the like) and you are getting the +3 base bonus to AC then you increase the bonus to AC by the amount of the weapon's bonus.

Ritual book operates like the ritual casting feat except that only swordmage levels are used instead of total levels and you use wizard rituals.

sword bond lets you perform a ritual with a weapon. After completing this ritual the weapon is considered an arcane focus for your swordmage spells and rituals. The hand holding the weapon is considered to be open for purposes of using somatic gestures and material components. The weapon can be teleported to your hand instantly with a bonus action so long as the weapon is on the same plane of existence. The weapon will also return immediately to the owners hand if it is a thrown weapon and it is thrown as a weapon attack at an enemy.

fighting style has all fighting styles as a choice except for protection.

spell casting is int based. It is prepared from a spell book. spells can be added to the book like a wizard though from the sword mage list. The swordmage list has many evocations, transmutation, teleportation, abjuration, and some divination and conjuration. The swordmage will be a 1/2 caster like the paladin and ranger but with cantrips at the same rate as the wizard.

swordmage traditions will be used to create unique sub types of the swordmage. These will be detailed later.

Bonus spells are spells that each tradition get as always prepared spells much like paladins get for their scared oaths.

War magic is like the EK ability except it only works for swordmage cantrips.

aegis is the same as the stone sorcerer's stone aegis ability except that the damage reduction used will be equal to prof bonus -1.

greater warding applies your base warding bonus to your saving throws.

elemental strike lets you deal one additional dice of damage with a non-weapon cantrip of the same damage type as the cantrip deals and +1d8 damage of an element of your choice (fire, acid, cold, or electricity) on any weapon attack. You can change the damage type on the weapon attacks on a short rest.

greater war magic lets you make a weapon attack with a leveled swordmage spell.

improved aegis is like earth's master aegis from the stone sorcerer.

Capstone needs to be created. I am not sure yet whether I should have just one for all swordmages or go with the paladin idea and have one for each type.


Let me know what you think on this bare bones concept.

MeeposFire
2017-10-17, 11:17 PM
Spells

TBD

MeeposFire
2017-10-17, 11:18 PM
Sword mage traditions

TBD

MeeposFire
2017-10-17, 11:19 PM
Last reserved post just in case.

Rerem115
2017-10-18, 08:43 AM
Just did a quick glance over; here's what stuck out to me.

1. Half casters don't get cantrips; giving the Swordmage cantrips makes it strictly better than any other half-caster, especially considering they are going to get a considerable portion of the Wizard's spell list.

2. I really don't like Warding. +1 AC at all times, while strong, is kinda boring for the core feature of your class. Having the AC scale with weapon enhancements is problematic; it lets that +2 sword be a +2 sword and +2 armor, while still allowing the wielder to wear +2 armor. Additionally, it creates a massive predicament for the DM; do you give your party +X items knowing that one member is going to be broken with it, or do you just avoid +X items altogether.

TLDR; +1 AC is boring, and the rest is broken enough that no sane DM is going to give the party +X weapons

3. I don't like Ritual Book; it would be simpler just to copy the text for Ritual Casting as a Wizard.

4. I think Aegis is already a bit on the strong side, and that's when it's on the Sorcerer chassis. On a martial class, damage reduction+teleportation+reaction attack+extra damage is really strong. It's not necessarily broken, but to use a famous gaming company's term, it uses a lot of the classes "power budget"; if this ability is particularly strong, you have to tone down the rest of the class to balance for it, and if you want to include other strong abilities, you'd have to tone down this one.

5. Greater Warding. You mean I get a guaranteed +1 to every save, but usually it's +3, and goes up to a +6? Again, like Warding, it's simultaneously boring and overpowered, and guarantees that you will never get +X weapons from your DM. A better option would be to have it be like the Fighter's Indomitable, or maybe once per long rest you can roll any save as an Int save, or something of that nature.

6. Improved Aegis. Same judgement as Aegis.

7. War Magic/Greater War Magic. Why split this up, instead of having it be nice and simple like the EK ability it clearly is?


Overall, I'd say this class is already more than a little on the strong side, and that's without any archetype abilities.

JNAProductions
2017-10-18, 12:39 PM
Just did a quick glance over; here's what stuck out to me.

1. Half casters don't get cantrips; giving the Swordmage cantrips makes it strictly better than any other half-caster, especially considering they are going to get a considerable portion of the Wizard's spell list.

2. I really don't like Warding. +1 AC at all times, while strong, is kinda boring for the core feature of your class. Having the AC scale with weapon enhancements is problematic; it lets that +2 sword be a +2 sword and +2 armor, while still allowing the wielder to wear +2 armor. Additionally, it creates a massive predicament for the DM; do you give your party +X items knowing that one member is going to be broken with it, or do you just avoid +X items altogether.

TLDR; +1 AC is boring, and the rest is broken enough that no sane DM is going to give the party +X weapons

3. I don't like Ritual Book; it would be simpler just to copy the text for Ritual Casting as a Wizard.

4. I think Aegis is already a bit on the strong side, and that's when it's on the Sorcerer chassis. On a martial class, damage reduction+teleportation+reaction attack+extra damage is really strong. It's not necessarily broken, but to use a famous gaming company's term, it uses a lot of the classes "power budget"; if this ability is particularly strong, you have to tone down the rest of the class to balance for it, and if you want to include other strong abilities, you'd have to tone down this one.

5. Greater Warding. You mean I get a guaranteed +1 to every save, but usually it's +3, and goes up to a +6? Again, like Warding, it's simultaneously boring and overpowered, and guarantees that you will never get +X weapons from your DM. A better option would be to have it be like the Fighter's Indomitable, or maybe once per long rest you can roll any save as an Int save, or something of that nature.

6. Improved Aegis. Same judgement as Aegis.

7. War Magic/Greater War Magic. Why split this up, instead of having it be nice and simple like the EK ability it clearly is?


Overall, I'd say this class is already more than a little on the strong side, and that's without any archetype abilities.

Rerem has the right of it. This class is shaping up to be significantly too strong.

MeeposFire
2017-10-18, 01:15 PM
Just did a quick glance over; here's what stuck out to me.

1. Half casters don't get cantrips; giving the Swordmage cantrips makes it strictly better than any other half-caster, especially considering they are going to get a considerable portion of the Wizard's spell list.

2. I really don't like Warding. +1 AC at all times, while strong, is kinda boring for the core feature of your class. Having the AC scale with weapon enhancements is problematic; it lets that +2 sword be a +2 sword and +2 armor, while still allowing the wielder to wear +2 armor. Additionally, it creates a massive predicament for the DM; do you give your party +X items knowing that one member is going to be broken with it, or do you just avoid +X items altogether.

TLDR; +1 AC is boring, and the rest is broken enough that no sane DM is going to give the party +X weapons

3. I don't like Ritual Book; it would be simpler just to copy the text for Ritual Casting as a Wizard.

4. I think Aegis is already a bit on the strong side, and that's when it's on the Sorcerer chassis. On a martial class, damage reduction+teleportation+reaction attack+extra damage is really strong. It's not necessarily broken, but to use a famous gaming company's term, it uses a lot of the classes "power budget"; if this ability is particularly strong, you have to tone down the rest of the class to balance for it, and if you want to include other strong abilities, you'd have to tone down this one.

5. Greater Warding. You mean I get a guaranteed +1 to every save, but usually it's +3, and goes up to a +6? Again, like Warding, it's simultaneously boring and overpowered, and guarantees that you will never get +X weapons from your DM. A better option would be to have it be like the Fighter's Indomitable, or maybe once per long rest you can roll any save as an Int save, or something of that nature.

6. Improved Aegis. Same judgement as Aegis.

7. War Magic/Greater War Magic. Why split this up, instead of having it be nice and simple like the EK ability it clearly is?


Overall, I'd say this class is already more than a little on the strong side, and that's without any archetype abilities.

Thank you for the feedback.

1. The cantrips are essential. Personally I do not think they are a problem (granted I am of the opinion that the other half casters should have them too and the only reason that they do not is for thematic or historical reasons) since remember weaker 1/3 casters get them too. Further notice that this class does not get extra attack or any other on turn damage ability. This class would need cantrips in order to do damage at all. Further swordmage fans from back in the day will expect the class to cast booming blade, greenflame blade, lightning lure, and sword burst because those are all swordmage originals from 4e. Also consider I am not giving them all the wizard spells from those schools (or at least that is not the plan) I am just saying the types of spells you would likely see a lot of and most of them (possibly all but have not looked through it completely yet) will be also on the wizard list. I had numerous people mention that they thought it would be neat to have a weapon using class that was built around using cantrips instead of just the attack action so I think that this would be the best place to try to make that work.

2. The warding is unfortunately a major part of the original class so not having it would probably be seen as a slap in the face of those who liked the original. As for the numbers themselves the +1 warding is essentially "you get plate AC in non-heavy armor", the additional +2 is "you get the shield bonus too if you use a weapon that woud normally get a shield", and the magic part is to mimic the ability to get magic shields which of course the swordmage would not be able to do. Essentially this ability allows them to share AC with paladins but without using heavy armor (swordmages did not use heavy armor). I could get rid of the magic item part and just let them live with the fact that there AC cannot improve like other shield warrior types do.

3. Simpler yes though I was trying to give them a nice sounding utility boost though admitiably there are not really that many rituals that are over 5th level so it really does not do much except get you access to them earlier. IF that is considered an actual problem yea I could just fold it into the swordmage casting and just make sure to add all of the ritual spells in.

4. I agree that aegis was on the strong side I was just trying to use what is clearly a swordmage ability given to another class with minimal changes (I changed the damage reduction progression only because 2+level/4 is just a silly formula and going prof bonus-1 gives almost exactly the same thing but only off by a level or two). I think it would be fair to nix the attack portion all together or put it on the improved version later and maybe drop affecting multiple targets.

5. You would never gain a +6 as the ability says you apply your base warding bonus which is either a +1 or +3. So essentially this is an ability that gives less of a bonus than a paladin aura and is self only. Personally I am not a fan of rerolls like that so I would not personally go that direction. Does knowing it only goes to +3 at most help?

6. War magic is split up on the EK as well. At level 7 it lets you use cantrips and make an attack (though notably it allows ANY cantrip the swordmage version only allows swordmage cantrips) and later I think at 18 it allows you to make that bonus action attack after casting any spell (once again the swordmage has to use a swordmage spell). I am just continuing that trend though the swordmage gets the improved version earlier in the level progression but essentially at the same time for the spell progression (both get the ability around the time they get 4th level spells).


Would some of these changes potentially change your mind on it if they were implemented (and also does my explanations help at all)?


EDIT: Also about that stone sorcerer it is not really behind this class. Its HP is on average 1HP less per level before con (and its con will likely be higher for most of the game). ITs AC is equal (13+con+shield means 18+shield base which is the same as the swordmage with warding using the same weapons). It also gets up to 9th level spells which the swordmage will not get. The swordmage will have better saves, rituals and better standard damage for a while (after stone edge not as much) but the stone sorc will have better nova damage and of course 9th level spells. It is not so clearcut as you might think even if htought of as melee spell guy killing via cantrips and weapons.

JNAProductions
2017-10-18, 10:10 PM
Aegis is way debatably too good on a Sorcerer. It's DEFINITELY too good on a melee character.

Rerem115
2017-10-18, 10:15 PM
Hmmm. All right, I'm starting to see your ideas behind this class.

1. Cantrips in exchange for Extra Attack is a bit of a new thing for what is ostensibly a martial class; since I'm not sure of the balance, I'll leave that for you to playtest. The biggest design challenge it creates is that it makes you much more MAD; with Extra Attack, you can buff Str/Dex and still do reasonable damage, but without it, you have to buff Int at the expense of Str/Dex, and still do less damage, since you're not a full caster.

2. Eliminating the magic item bonus is probably for the best; it would only function as intended if every S&B martial in the party had both a magic weapon and a magic shield, which is real Monty Haul territory.

3. It's not really a problem per say, it's just inconsistent with standard 5e casting; having the rituals be part of the class's spellcasting would bring it in line with other 5e classes, while opening up the level for a more flavorful ability.

4. That change would probably work.

5. While weaker, it's still problematic, because it limits player choice. You give the class every weapon and almost every fighting style, but then lock them into a particular combination in order to really take advantage of their core class features. That's why I think a re-roll system would be more effective, since it opens up the class to everything that you've given it.

6. My bad, my memory was fuzzy on the EK. It's probably fine as-is.


The big issue of comparing this class to the Stone Sorcerer is a bit more complicated than you make it out to be. Plain and simple, despite all it's buffs, the Stone Sorcerer should still have no real desire to be in melee range. Let me explain:
--It has d8 hit points (good, but not front line)
--It's a full caster, so it's going to want 20 Cha (2 ASIs)
--While it does get plate level AC, it needs 20 Con to get that (2 ASIs, minimum)
--If it wants to take advantage of being in the front lines (i.e., Quicken Spell+Attack), it has a maximum Str or Dex of 18 once all it's ASIs are accounted for, and that's if it takes no feats at all, which leaves it with a -1 in both Wis and Int

Additionally, perhaps moreso than any other 1/2 caster, the Swordmage is really pigeonholed into a particular build. While they are given every martial weapon and almost every fighting style, both their core class features require light/medium armor and a single one-handed weapon, which means it makes little sense to use GWF, TWF, or Archery. Making TWF even worse is the fact that your big power spikes are when you can cast and then attack as a bonus action, completely invalidating TWF. Since they only get one attack a round, it means that Dueling has little value. When all is said and done, 90% of the players who will use this class will be running around with a rapier, light/medium armor, and the Defense fighting style. That might not be a problem for you, but then why create the illusion of choice if one particular set so outclasses the others?

Arkhios
2017-10-19, 05:04 AM
In a way, you could say that paladin actally has a cantrip-like ability: Divine Sense. Of course, it's not a full-fledged cantrip, but it's essentially an utility cantrip in effect. (I know, I know, it's mostly useless, but it has its uses every now and then, depending on your DM giving chances to use it). PHB Ranger also has an utility "cantrip-like" feature, although it doesn't require activation: Natural Explorer (which, on the other hand, makes it slightly better as a "cantrip" than Divine Sense).

Following that guideline even Swordmage could have a "cantrip-like" feature, but I'd say it had to follow either Divine Sense's or Natural Explorer's example.

As for the Warding, just word it so that you lose both benefits if you ever wear heavy armor and/or use a shield in addition to the choice of weapon as is already present (as you can get shield and/or heavy armor proficiency from multiclassing or with feat)

MeeposFire
2017-10-19, 07:38 PM
In a way, you could say that paladin actally has a cantrip-like ability: Divine Sense. Of course, it's not a full-fledged cantrip, but it's essentially an utility cantrip in effect. (I know, I know, it's mostly useless, but it has its uses every now and then, depending on your DM giving chances to use it). PHB Ranger also has an utility "cantrip-like" feature, although it doesn't require activation: Natural Explorer (which, on the other hand, makes it slightly better as a "cantrip" than Divine Sense).

Following that guideline even Swordmage could have a "cantrip-like" feature, but I'd say it had to follow either Divine Sense's or Natural Explorer's example.

As for the Warding, just word it so that you lose both benefits if you ever wear heavy armor and/or use a shield in addition to the choice of weapon as is already present (as you can get shield and/or heavy armor proficiency from multiclassing or with feat)

I forgot to add that in it was supposed to be there about shields and heavy armor.

Arkhios
2017-10-20, 02:01 AM
I forgot to add that in it was supposed to be there about shields and heavy armor.

By the way, there is a magic sword in DMG, called Defender (pg. 164). How about using that as a chassis for a "cantrip-like" feature, usable a number of times per long rest equal to your Int modifier, lasting 1 or 10 minutes per use. At certain levels, the feature could be used to grant a bonded weapon a gradually increasing bonus (max +3) to attack and damage rolls (in addition to making the weapon magical), which you could then alter to grant a bonus to AC instead, up to the maximum bonus the feature could bestow to the weapon. (Reducing the max bonus to atk/dmg by an amount of your choice, and increasing the AC by an equal amount)

cdax
2017-11-01, 02:16 AM
Seems cool. :)