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Indon
2007-08-17, 02:23 PM
I am making this thread because it was taking up too much space in the 4'rd Ed. Wish List thread, and I feel it's something worth discussing.

This thread is half-game, half-theoretical discussion of the design intent and application of Paradox in White Wolf's Mage the Ascention, part of their World of Darkness.

The game part is, you describe a Mage magical effect, and someone else (probably me unless someone else wants to have a go) describes how it catastrophically backfires/drives you mad/etc. through Paradox expenditure.

The theory part is, feel free to discuss your opinions of what Paradox should be in the Mage system, vs. what it is, etc.

Personally, I feel that Paradox is designed in the Mage system to be a control on the actions of even the most powerful Mage, the enforcement of Static reality upon a Mage. Mind that Paradox can strike against even the most coincidental effects, and that coincidental effects can still generate Paradox (just less than Vulgar effects).

Indon
2007-08-17, 02:30 PM
In regards to the idea that Magic can act upon other supernatural creatures with impunity because people aren't supposed to believe in them:

It may be expected for people to not believe in supernatural creatures, but this does not mean they are not deeply ingrained in consentual reality.

Firstly, many people do outright believe in them.

Secondly, many, many more, while they don't believe in other supernatural creatures per se, may have a more overarching belief that "anything's possible" ("You can't believe some of the freaky stuff I've seen", and "there is more on heaven and earth than is in your philosophy" falls into this category as well), and are thus not exerting pressure on their existence within consentual reality.

Fax Celestis
2007-08-17, 02:46 PM
I agree with you in principle, but M:tA actually says, in text, that supernatural creatures--regardless of kind--do not provoke Paradox. Further, if you can make a magical effect look like a nonmagical effect (such as shooting a fireball out of an object that looks like a flamethrower), it's not Vulgar and therefore doesn't make Paradox.

BCOVertigo
2007-08-17, 02:46 PM
This has nothing at all to do with your game but what books does one need to play mage? (the 'core' so to speak)

I have a book for mage: the awakening and was interested in learning the system but then found out a newer edition was out and since I barely found ONE book from the older at half price books, I figure the newer edition may be easier to get my dirty little noob hands on.

On that note, I just got Antagonist under the impression that it is the equivalent of a Monster Manual for WoD.

Fax Celestis
2007-08-17, 02:50 PM
Mage: The Awakening needs two books: the M:tA book, and the nWoD core. Old M:tA (Mage: The Ascension) only requires one book: the M:tA book--though the Technocracy book is a very good addition.

...why on earth couldn't they have used a different acronym?

BCOVertigo
2007-08-17, 02:52 PM
Mage: The Awakening needs two books: the M:tA book, and the nWoD core. Old M:tA (Mage: The Ascension) only requires one book: the M:tA book--though the Technocracy book is a very good addition.

...why on earth couldn't they have used a different acronym?

Spite, sir. Spite.

So....while I don't need antagonist to play nWoD Mage, is it a useful addition for a new group of players?

Also what are some of the changes between editions?

Indon
2007-08-17, 02:57 PM
I've never played New Mage, but from what I gather magic works _entirely_ differently.

Considering I absolutely love the old Mage system, thinking it honestly the best-implemented magic system out of any game system I've ever played (albeit also the most difficult to understand and run properly), I've no interest in playing New Mage.

Edit: Yes, I am aware that supernatural creatures do not provoke the additional Paradox penalty that normal people do.

Fax Celestis
2007-08-17, 02:57 PM
Antagonists and Ghost Stories are excellent additions. They provide general rules for making foes for your opponents that aren't other mages.

However, be warned: M:tA is by far the most complex of the three new systems. V:tR and W:tF are a lot simpler. Prometheans might also be a good addition, if you feel like making Frankensteinian opponents.

I am saddened, however, by the discontinuation of Wraith: the Oblivion.

Indon
2007-08-17, 03:01 PM
Edit: And regarding your fireball-from-flamethrower example: Yes, at first that would be coincidental and incur no Paradox.

But should you fire it more times than the amount of fuel you seem to have would indicate, it stops being coincidental. It starts being, "Man, I wonder what that thing's running on?" and that's when Paradox starts building.

You fire it off one too many times and the Paradox expels, which is when Static Reality supplies you with a fuel (and demonstrates that you have been using it all the time, probably in a bad way).

Now, if you take steps to 'refuel' your 'flamethrower' (probably with quintessence), you make it look more reasonable and prevent the incurrence of Paradox from that way.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-08-17, 03:02 PM
Regarding the Paradox backlash game...

I cast Magic Missile at the darkness. What horrible thing happens?

More seriously, I use a Forces effect to manipulate gravity in a small area and pin, let's say, a Vampire to the ground with increased gravitational force. What horrible thing happens?

BCOVertigo
2007-08-17, 03:05 PM
Antagonists and Ghost Stories are excellent additions. They provide general rules for making foes for your opponents that aren't other mages.

However, be warned: M:tA is by far the most complex of the three new systems. V:tR and W:tF are a lot simpler. Prometheans might also be a good addition, if you feel like making Frankensteinian opponents.

I am saddened, however, by the discontinuation of Wraith: the Oblivion.

Well vampires all have livejournals and werewolves are covered in (flammable) hair, so mage seems like the obvious choice. Besides if I can't bury my opponents in a torrent of eldritch annihilation why am I playing in the first place?

In case you wondered my favorite word from the old M:tA book was paraphobe. :smallbiggrin:

Indon
2007-08-17, 03:10 PM
I cast Magic Missile at the darkness. What horrible thing happens?

The Darkness casts Forcecage back at you?



More seriously, I use a Forces effect to manipulate gravity in a small area and pin, let's say, a Vampire to the ground with increased gravitational force. What horrible thing happens?

There are a lot of possibilities here, linked to what methodology you're using to affect this.

Say you're using 'superstrings' to affect the gravity field (Forces, Correspondence), since gravity is a mutually attractive force. A backfire in this case would cause those strings to temporarily 'snap', possibly causing a temporary antigravity field (small paradox expenditure) or causing a backlash causing an expulsionary force away from the source of the original field (for high paradox). That's more a technomagic view of that sort of thing, though.

Now let's say instead you're calling upon God to supress your opponent (Forces, Prime). More likely (particularly, if you expended Quintessence to initiate the effect) the effect just stops; Quintessence is Paradox Insurance. I'd personally also have it just stop if you don't have a large amount of Paradox accumulated.

Now, if you had a high amount of Paradox accumulated, you gain a couple points of Quiet and your friends see you collapse into a speaking-in-tongues seisure while you see your effect work just fine.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-08-17, 03:21 PM
Yeah. My only major campaign in the Ascension was as a Son of Ether, so I tend to express things technically, which is probably why you initially went with the first, sciency example. Of course, as an actual SoE, Paradox can always just make your Devices stop working/explode spectacularly.

horseboy
2007-08-17, 03:27 PM
I was talking about a published WW spell, that IIRC required 3 life, 2 time, matter, spirit (one of those was optional) and 1 prime. It allowed you to turn a vampire into a mortal, thereby stripping them of their supernatural abilities. It was in the player's guide, if I remember.

Indon
2007-08-17, 03:40 PM
I was talking about a published WW spell, that IIRC required 3 life, 2 time, matter, spirit (one of those was optional) and 1 prime. It allowed you to turn a vampire into a mortal, thereby stripping them of their supernatural abilities. It was in the player's guide, if I remember.

Never seen it. Is the players' guide different than the standard book, per chance?

horseboy
2007-08-17, 03:48 PM
Never seen it. Is the players' guide different than the standard book, per chance?

Yeah. They did that throughout the WoD series. They had the core rule book and then they'd give out a player's guide with new skills, fluff on different stuff gear, and what not. It's been 10 years, so they might not have called it a "player's guide".

Hmm, quick google (http://www.pen-paper.net/rpgdb.php?op=showbook&bookid=800) I think that's it. I only remember having that, the core book and Iteneration X.

Fax Celestis
2007-08-17, 03:49 PM
Never seen it. Is the players' guide different than the standard book, per chance?

It is indeed.

Indon
2007-08-17, 03:51 PM
It is indeed.

Hmm.

Seems to be a case of a bit of power creep. I don't recall the few static abilities in the original book to be all that ridiculous.

horseboy
2007-08-17, 03:55 PM
Hmm.

Seems to be a case of a bit of power creep. I don't recall the few static abilities in the original book to be all that ridiculous.

Well, usually they were the 2nd or 3rd book out in the series. But yeah, Mage was just Hella broken.

Indon
2007-08-17, 03:56 PM
Well, usually they were the 2nd or 3rd book out in the series. But yeah, Mage was just Hella broken.

Were there any _other_ effects like that listed in the books, or was that just the Shivering Touch of Mage?

Fax Celestis
2007-08-17, 04:00 PM
Were there any _other_ effects like that listed in the books, or was that just the Shivering Touch of Mage?

M:tA was the worst offender of Codex Creep.

horseboy
2007-08-17, 04:03 PM
Were there any _other_ effects like that listed in the books, or was that just the Shivering Touch of Mage?

It's the only one I remember. My area was very HEAVILY pro-vampire. I used to threaten them with it. There were a couple of other spells in there, but I don't remember what they did.

Fax Celestis
2007-08-17, 07:00 PM
It's the only one I remember. My area was very HEAVILY pro-vampire. I used to threaten them with it. There were a couple of other spells in there, but I don't remember what they did.

Mine was too, though I managed to get it so that I could LARP a Wraith in an MET V:tM game.

Aquillion
2007-08-17, 09:29 PM
...this is why, when you're in a campaign of Mage, you need to take the time to declare yourself the Messiah and run a PR campaign based on this.

I mean, really. How long would it take to convince people that you're the Messiah when you can perform genuine miracles? I think you'd have them firmly convinced long before the paradox became a problem. Start with the most insane mystically-minded folk who expect the Messiah to appear at any time anyway, and it's no problem.

horseboy
2007-08-17, 10:07 PM
...this is why, when you're in a campaign of Mage, you need to take the time to declare yourself the Messiah and run a PR campaign based on this.

I mean, really. How long would it take to convince people that you're the Messiah when you can perform genuine miracles? I think you'd have them firmly convinced long before the paradox became a problem. Start with the most insane mystically-minded folk who expect the Messiah to appear at any time anyway, and it's no problem.

Waco, TX :smallcool:

TheElfLord
2007-08-17, 11:11 PM
...this is why, when you're in a campaign of Mage, you need to take the time to declare yourself the Messiah and run a PR campaign based on this.

I mean, really. How long would it take to convince people that you're the Messiah when you can perform genuine miracles? I think you'd have them firmly convinced long before the paradox became a problem. Start with the most insane mystically-minded folk who expect the Messiah to appear at any time anyway, and it's no problem.

Well, you can't burn Paradox off naturally once you get more than 10 points, after that it just stacks up untill you go pop, so I would say you have 3-5 spells before it becomes a problem. While you might be able to convice some people you are the Messiah in that short amount of time, it won't be widespred. Plus trying to do that paints a giant target on your chest from all the supernatural groups that try to keep the supernatural secret. The Camirilla and the Technocracy would be knocking on your door before long. In fact, the Waco analogy is very apt in that regard.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-08-17, 11:22 PM
Gasp! The FBI are owned by the Technocracy!

Who didn't see that coming, honestly?

HidaTsuzua
2007-08-18, 08:49 AM
...this is why, when you're in a campaign of Mage, you need to take the time to declare yourself the Messiah and run a PR campaign based on this.

I mean, really. How long would it take to convince people that you're the Messiah when you can perform genuine miracles? I think you'd have them firmly convinced long before the paradox became a problem. Start with the most insane mystically-minded folk who expect the Messiah to appear at any time anyway, and it's no problem.

You're close. The true key to Mage power is just playing with consensual reality. I personally like setting up urban legends and email hoaxes myself. (http://snopes.com/snopes.asp) You'll have fun arguing with the GM about how many people have to believe before you find alligators in New York City or someone you don't like will die from antibiotic immune ebola-death-AIDS from leaks into newspapers and emails.

One fun trick is corner the supply of something rare but little used (some mineral or the like). Then set up a campaign of disease that needs the item in question to cure. Kill a few people with the symptoms, report to the news, and you have a disease. Then destroy all your supplies (after giving yourself the "cure") and have the supplies "special" in that they can't be made. After a critical point, reality will kick in and enforce your view of the world. Everyone else will be dead. You are now the last being and therefore the consensus. Now believe everyone back into existence but this time they are philosophical zombies and thus don't have a say in consensual reality. Enjoy being a god.

That or pull the ol' "well all the players agree therefore it's consensual and we're the majority of the people here, sorry Mr. GM, but Rule 0 doesn't exist anymore" trick. :smalltongue:

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-08-18, 09:27 AM
Also, keep in mind that supernatural creatures, like Vampires, are not considered 'witnesses', and so incur far less Paradox than 'Vulgar WITH witnesses' to screw when you go vulgar.

The above 'turn a vamp into a mortal' rote, which would only be temporary unless you managed to make like 5+ successes, would be vulgar, but since it has absolutley no visible effect, since a vamp looks just like a human anyways. In fact, the argument could be made that it is a coincidental effect because 'he may have thought he was a vampire, but everyone knows that vampires don't really exist, poor thing must have been insane to have thought bullets wouldn't affect him'. The belief system of society is that vamps don't exist. This is good for vamps in most cases, to keep the lynch mobs away, but it gives Mages effectively Carte Blanche on them since you're returning 'reality' to status quo. Same thing with any other supernatural creature. This was the loophole I had to royally screw supernatural things over with nonvisual rotes. Then there were the other coincidental rotes like Prime 2 Forces 2: Sunlight Grenades. Works just like flash grenades, looks just like flash grenades, but it's real sunlight which does ag damage to vamps. Or the Everchanging Sheath with Matter 2, so that the sword I pull from it 'just happens' to be the exact thing I need to defeat my opponent. Werewolf attacking? It 'just happens' to be silver. Changlings? It 'just happens' to be Cold Iron. Vampires? It 'jut happens' to be wooden and pointy. And if a cop wants a look at it, then it 'just happens' to be a cheap replica. This, coupled with a Mind2 coincedental 'jedi mind trick' is more than enough to keep me out of trouble.

Hell, Mind effects are nearly always coincidental unless you just get blatant about it. 'Who knew the guy had suicidal tendencies and decided to eat his gun?' 'Who me? I had a long day and fell asleep at the camera. That's a comfy chair.' 'Holy crap, my best buddy has been playing me all along and is infected with the Wyrm-Taint and been leading me down the primerose path the whole time. That traitor!'. It's like Suggestion, only moreso. My Akashic pwned all with a combination of Do and Mind rotes, and never a point of paradox.

Of course, when you really need to get vulgar... Forces3, Matter3. That vampire? Yea, the flash point of his body is now equal to the ambient temperature. Congratulations, you're on fire. Have a nice day. Or even: Matter 2 Prime2: Vampire? You're now a lawnchair. How about this one... Matter 2, Forces3, Corrospondence 3: Werewolf? You're now a silver magnet. You have the gravitational attraction equivelant to a point singularity, but only in respect to silver objects, and silver objects can cross the quantum barrier to get here from all over the world. have a nice day.We haven't even gotten into Time5: I go back in time and kill your father/sire, you cease to exist. Or Corrospondence 3, Prime 2, Forces 3: Force Field of Immunity. Or how about Mind3: planting a mental compulsion to stand there and do nothing... basically a Stop That gun. Let's not start with Entropy effects, which can screw anything over. Or Time effects which age the victim years a second.

Mage: The Ascention is broke.

Xuincherguixe
2007-08-18, 09:52 AM
Wow. Sounds excessively fun broken.

puppyavenger
2007-08-18, 10:06 AM
Is awkening any better?

also I take a giant box of red cylenders with strings at the end that are tied together then light the strings on fire and throw it at a building with a massive explosion afffect.

Indon
2007-08-18, 10:09 AM
Then there were the other coincidental rotes like Prime 2 Forces 2: Sunlight Grenades. Works just like flash grenades, looks just like flash grenades, but it's real sunlight which does ag damage to vamps.
Considering that unenlightened science can do this (emulate the wavelength of sunlight perfectly), it's not particularly vulgar. Biggest backfire you'd get is a dud, I'd say.



Or the Everchanging Sheath with Matter 2, so that the sword I pull from it 'just happens' to be the exact thing I need to defeat my opponent. Werewolf attacking? It 'just happens' to be silver. Changlings? It 'just happens' to be Cold Iron. Vampires? It 'jut happens' to be wooden and pointy. And if a cop wants a look at it, then it 'just happens' to be a cheap replica. This, coupled with a Mind2 coincedental 'jedi mind trick' is more than enough to keep me out of trouble.

Without Entropy or Correspondence supplimenting the transmutation of your sheath, that's hideously vulgar. It wouldn't be long before you drew your sword only to find you grabbed a rare, fatally venomous snake who bites you and slithers off.



Hell, Mind effects are nearly always coincidental unless you just get blatant about it. 'Who knew the guy had suicidal tendencies and decided to eat his gun?' 'Who me? I had a long day and fell asleep at the camera. That's a comfy chair.' 'Holy crap, my best buddy has been playing me all along and is infected with the Wyrm-Taint and been leading me down the primerose path the whole time. That traitor!'. It's like Suggestion, only moreso. My Akashic pwned all with a combination of Do and Mind rotes, and never a point of paradox.


Mind is relatively safe, but there's a reason it's said that every psychologist requires their own psychologist.



Of course, when you really need to get vulgar... Forces3, Matter3. That vampire? Yea, the flash point of his body is now equal to the ambient temperature. Congratulations, you're on fire. Have a nice day.

Spontaneous Combustion, I imagine, would be a little less vulgar than most other blatant forces/matter effects, but still of course, that's a good bit of Paradox. I'd probably backfire it by having the entire place swamped in gasoline, thus justifying that ignition and burning... of course, the whole area tragically goes up as well.



Or even: Matter 2 Prime2: Vampire? You're now a lawnchair.

You can't really transmute living things without Life as well. Otherwise, you could heal with just Matter, which you can't. This effect thus doesn't even _work_ (unless you mean some form of metaphorical lawnchair), but I'd give you Quiet for trying if you had enough Paradox already.

(Edit: Mind that things that sense the auras of living things, etc. still work with Vampires, they just register differently, so no, they aren't just unliving matter)



How about this one... Matter 2, Forces3, Corrospondence 3: Werewolf? You're now a silver magnet. You have the gravitational attraction equivelant to a point singularity, but only in respect to silver objects, and silver objects can cross the quantum barrier to get here from all over the world. have a nice day.

So you have a light-speed collision of significant quantities of matter within your line of sight? That's going to cause a multi-megaton explosion at the least. You're dead, and you started the next War on Terror.



We haven't even gotten into Time5: I go back in time and kill your father/sire, you cease to exist.

Aside from not being guaranteed success in killing your target, your time travel is going to have wildly varying side effects. A Ray Bradbury short comes to mind here, involving a butterfly...



Or Corrospondence 3, Prime 2, Forces 3: Force Field of Immunity.


Highly Vulgar. At best, you can't get rid of the field and you suffocate. At worst, it 'stores' all the energy it had absorbed and when removed, expends it explosively.



Or how about Mind3: planting a mental compulsion to stand there and do nothing... basically a Stop That gun.


This is another actually viable one. A simple bit of quick hypnotism really can do this.



Let's not start with Entropy effects, which can screw anything over.


'anything' includes the Mage.



Or Time effects which age the victim years a second.

Yes, create a chronological singularity. That's safe.



Mage: The Ascention is broke.

Well, you can sure try to break it, but with Paradox, it generally breaks you first.

Fax Celestis
2007-08-18, 10:43 AM
The problem, Indon, is that vulgar doesn't matter if no one sees.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-08-18, 11:36 AM
Considering that unenlightened science can do this (emulate the wavelength of sunlight perfectly), it's not particularly vulgar. Biggest backfire you'd get is a dud, I'd say. Actually, you'd get NO Paradox, because it is a COINCIDENTAL effect.



Without Entropy or Correspondence supplimenting the transmutation of your sheath, that's hideously vulgar. It wouldn't be long before you drew your sword only to find you grabbed a rare, fatally venomous snake who bites you and slithers off. Again, incorrect. Coincidental effect because it could have been anything, unless you have mundane people carefully watching to see what you pull out of your sheath enough times to start noticing that you're pulling something different out of the same sheath. And Matter 2 is all you need to change teardrops into diamonds, so changing the material of the blade is easy.




Mind is relatively safe, but there's a reason it's said that every psychologist requires their own psychologist. And again, coincidental effects don't generate paradox except in botches.


Spontaneous Combustion, I imagine, would be a little less vulgar than most other blatant forces/matter effects, but still of course, that's a good bit of Paradox. I'd probably backfire it by having the entire place swamped in gasoline, thus justifying that ignition and burning... of course, the whole area tragically goes up as well. That's the price for going Vulgar. Of course, without mundane witnesses, you don't have to worry.



't really transmute living things without Life as well. Otherwise, you could heal with just Matter, which you can't. This effect thus doesn't even _work_ (unless you mean some form of metaphorical lawnchair), but I'd give you Quiet for trying if you had enough Paradox already. Ahh, but a Vampire isn't alive, now is it? It's already a dead body, so now it's a lawnchair.


Mind that things that sense the auras of living things, etc. still work with Vampires, they just register differently, so no, they aren't just unliving matter) They're specifically excluded from Life, so they're Matter.



have a light-speed collision of significant quantities of matter within your line of sight? That's going to cause a multi-megaton explosion at the least. You're dead, and you started the next War on Terror. If you get any paradox in the first place. Sure, it's vulgar as hell. But without witnesses, a great many vulgar acts can be pulled off with little to no paradox



rom not being guaranteed success in killing your target, your time travel is going to have wildly varying side effects. A Ray Bradbury short comes to mind here, involving a butterfly... And again, assuming I go vulgar with it.


Vulgar. At best, you can't get rid of the field and you suffocate. At worst, it 'stores' all the energy it had absorbed and when removed, expends it explosively. Vulgar yes, but without witnesses, I don't need to worry about it.


another actually viable one. A simple bit of quick hypnotism really can do this. Yep, coincidental magic, absolutely no paradox whatsoever


'anything' includes the Mage. If you backlash, sure. Otherwise... have fun, go mad.



Yes, create a chronological singularity. That's safe. It sure is as long as you don't have witnesses.


Well, you can sure try to break it, but with Paradox, it generally breaks you first.

Depends on how canny you are on using it. Sure, if you go tossing vulgar effects around in public, you're gonna get hauled away by paradox spirits or suffer some similar fate. But no witnesses means no paradox.

Actually, one of my more interesting ideals is a perfectly mundane human whom I kept around me at all times to screw over mages. They'd pop off some vulgar effect in front of my buddy and the world would kick his arse for me.

puppyavenger
2007-08-18, 11:46 AM
Why does messing with the timestream take a witness to go wrong?

Fax Celestis
2007-08-18, 11:50 AM
Why does messing with the timestream take a witness to go wrong?

Because it's not vulgar unless there's a non-awakened witness.

Aquillion
2007-08-18, 12:15 PM
Of course, another classic trick is to be a stage magician. That can buy you a lot of leeway--suddenly people are saying "I wonder what trick he used to make it look like that guy was injured?" rather than "OH MY GOD HE JUST HEALED THAT GUY WITH A GESTURE!"

That and adopting a professional manner will get you a long way. "No, no, don't panic... I went through some premed training, wounds like this are never as serious as they seem at first... There, see? It's really just a flesh wound."

The Gilded Duke
2007-08-18, 03:03 PM
One fun character that I played a bit was a Virtual Adept mage who strongly beleived in the power and magic of Rhetoric. He mainly had mind and correspondance.

At one point, him and a sorcerer friend decided on a way to fight the ascension war. The two of us went to a hospital. We were both wearing suits and had clipboards. My mage used his mind correspondance rote "I have a clipboard, I belong here".

We then went to the burn ward. My mage took out a bible. He started praising Jesus and laying on hands. He used his "I'm praising Jesus pay attention to me" rote to make sure that everyone was focused on him. Whenever he laid hands on a burn victim, the sorcerer then healed them.

The burn victims beleived that they were healed through faith healing. Even if they disbeleived the healing, I didn't get any paradox. Also, because it was using static magic, the healing worked anyway.

As far as making vampires human... there was a bit in one of the vampire books about that. For a mage to cure a vampire, they have to countermagic the original "spell" put on them by god. This involves an opposed roll. You cannot get more successes then god. So in the VTM game it was impossible. In MTA it was possible.

There was a wonderful crossover adventure published called the Red Sign. In it vampires and mages try and find a cure for vamparism. Most of the game is a rapid search for artifacts to assist in the ritual. I think the way it finally gets resolved is the artifacts allow you to lower the difficulty. Normally the difficulty for turning back a vampire is 13 or so. Which means you have to roll a 13 on 10 sided dice. The books have the effect of lowering the difficulty.

TheElfLord
2007-08-18, 07:39 PM
Because it's not vulgar unless there's a non-awakened witness.

Um, no, thats wrong. Vulgar magic is vulgar magic, things are worse when there are witnesses.

Coincidental effect: Difficutly is highest sphere level +3, no paradox without a botch

Vulgar without witnesses: Difficulty is highest sphere +4 gain paradox equal to the highest sphere level

Vulgar with witnessess: Difficulty is hightest sphere +5 i think and you get paradox equal to highest sphere +1

Even if no sleepers see your blantant display of will working reality still noticed and reacts.

Roog
2007-08-19, 03:22 AM
I have been follow the discussion here and looking through the Mage rules (since I haven't actually played it), and have a few questions.

It looks the magic could be coincidental when is preformed, but later become vulgar if information about the event spreads. Eg a vampire is turned into a human and killed; later the vampire's ghoul servant examines the body and discovers it is not the corpse of a vampire. Is that how it does/could work?


The line between coincidental and vulgar seems a bit unclear.


Or the Everchanging Sheath with Matter 2, so that the sword I pull from it 'just happens' to be the exact thing I need to defeat my opponent. Werewolf attacking? It 'just happens' to be silver. Changlings? It 'just happens' to be Cold Iron. Vampires? It 'jut happens' to be wooden and pointy. And if a cop wants a look at it, then it 'just happens' to be a cheap replica.
That does not seem to be "coincidental" without careful preparation. If you had a set of the appropriate weapon types (with identical handles) hidden away somewhere (or reasonably could have them) with no sleepers in a position to know which you were actually carrying, then pulling out the right one that you "just happen to be carrying" would seem to be coincidental; but without a believable explanation it would be vulgar. Is that right?

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-08-19, 04:07 AM
I have been follow the discussion here and looking through the Mage rules (since I haven't actually played it), and have a few questions.

It looks the magic could be coincidental when is preformed, but later become vulgar if information about the event spreads. Eg a vampire is turned into a human and killed; later the vampire's ghoul servant examines the body and discovers it is not the corpse of a vampire. Is that how it does/could work? A ghoul isn't a sleeper, it's an awakened supernatural being. Doesn't count.



The line between coincidental and vulgar seems a bit unclear.

That does not seem to be "coincidental" without careful preparation. If you had a set of the appropriate weapon types (with identical handles) hidden away somewhere (or reasonably could have them) with no sleepers in a position to know which you were actually carrying, then pulling out the right one that you "just happen to be carrying" would seem to be coincidental; but without a believable explanation it would be vulgar. Is that right?

Not really, unless you have someone following you around watching you very carefully.

Consider a moment: I have a sword in my sheath. You've never seen me before, so you have no clue what it could be. It could be steel, it could be silver, it could be a replica, it could be wooden, it could be cold iron. You don't know. The material of the blade is in quantum flux, rather like Shrodiger's Cat. You don't know if the cat is alive or dead while in the box. When I activate the rote and pull the sword, suddenly the material of the blade becomes hardened in reality... based on what I want it to be at the time. Coincidental that you just happened to have a silver blade when encountering the werewolf. Or maybe not coincidental, maybe he KNEW he was going to go up against a werewolf and so deliberately packed a silver blade.

Now then, several days later, in a completely different part of town, I am accosted by some Technocrats. Now I want my sword to be folded steel. No one is around who saw my sword and recognised it as silver from before, so there's no cooberating witnesses to complain. So it's still coincidental. Hey, no problem, he has a folded steel blade. They're not unusual, must have cost a pretty penny, though.

A couple of days later, a cop, under the influence of a Mind rote that told him I was a suspicious looking person, walks over and asks to see my sword in private. So I surrender my blade after using my rote to make it a replica. He's never seen my blade before. I explain to him that I'm with a re-enactment society who have a thing for authenticity. So we make these very realistic looking replica swords for the crowds. But I wouldn't carry a real sword around, what kind of loonie do ya take me for? I even have my membership card of the re-enactment society on hand to show him. Again, coincidental. Lot of SCAers and such running around with fake blades. Cop frowns, I use a rote, find the magick on him, counter it, smile disarmingly, and he grudgingly lets me go with a warning that at a distance it looks real and he'd appreciate it if I wouldn't carry it around with me everywhere.

Now, if I had done something like pull a folded steel blade to fight a H.I.T. cyborg, then get jumped mid-fight by a werewolf and used it on the already pulled out blade... THAT would be vulgar. But I wasn't nearly so blatant about my magick use.

Roog
2007-08-19, 06:07 AM
A ghoul isn't a sleeper, it's an awakened supernatural being. Doesn't count.
Or whoever notices it, the question being whether retroactive paradox is a possibility.




Consider a moment: I have a sword in my sheath. You've never seen me before, so you have no clue what it could be. It could be steel, it could be silver, it could be a replica, it could be wooden, it could be cold iron. You don't know. The material of the blade is in quantum flux, rather like Shrodiger's Cat. You don't know if the cat is alive or dead while in the box. When I activate the rote and pull the sword, suddenly the material of the blade becomes hardened in reality... based on what I want it to be at the time. Coincidental that you just happened to have a silver blade when encountering the werewolf. Or maybe not coincidental, maybe he KNEW he was going to go up against a werewolf and so deliberately packed a silver blade.
The thing is I have been trying to find an example like this from the rules, in order to place the line between coincidental and vulgar magic. The kind of explanation you gave makes almost anything with no witnesses coincidental, because the entire event acts as a black box - but the rules make a distinction between "a vulgar effect with witnesses" and "a vulgar effect without witnesses".
So, what would you consider to be "a vulgar effect without witnesses"?

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-08-19, 03:07 PM
Or whoever notices it, the question being whether retroactive paradox is a possibility.
Anyone who would be a witness to the vamp being no longer a vamp would likely no longer be a sleeper. A sleeper is mundane, he doesn't know about vampires.


The thing is I have been trying to find an example like this from the rules, in order to place the line between coincidental and vulgar magic. The kind of explanation you gave makes almost anything with no witnesses coincidental, because the entire event acts as a black box - but the rules make a distinction between "a vulgar effect with witnesses" and "a vulgar effect without witnesses".
So, what would you consider to be "a vulgar effect without witnesses"?

Vulgar without witnesses is something blatantly not possible by the laws of physics that happens when there are no mortals around.

My above example of being vulgar, the blade is out of the sheath and in use and suddenly it goes from steel to silver. That's vulgar. If there were no sleepers around, it would be vulgar without witnesses.

So, 'just happening' to have the right material sword on hand: Coincidental. Sword changing materials on it's own out of the sheath? Vulgar without witnesses. Sword changing materials on it's on in front of April O'Neal and the Channel 6 news broadcast? Vulgar with witnesses.

Got it?

HidaTsuzua
2007-08-19, 08:27 PM
My general rule of thumb for telling the difference is if I can say "Who would have thought that <magic effect> would happen?" and have it sound plausible. "Who would have thought that I would have the right sword for this encounter on me?" works. "Who would have thought that my sword shoots lasers" wouldn't.

Nahal
2007-08-19, 08:35 PM
My general rule of thumb for telling the difference is if I can say "Who would have thought that <magic effect> would happen?" and have it sound plausible. "Who would have thought that I would have the right sword for this encounter on me?" works. "Who would have thought that my sword shoots lasers" wouldn't.

Coincidentally, paradox resulting from such an effect may result in something akin to "who would have thought my sword was actually a protoplasmic tentacle monster that shoot lasers?"

Fawsto
2007-08-19, 10:38 PM
Dudes, mages are the WhiteWolf's cheese!

It even looks like that WW made a copy of D&D on this...

If you are a clever guy, your mage is a rentless destructive machine, so Paradox is the only thing taht holds you back, without it, mages would be unstopabble.

WhiteWolf power list:

1st Place: Demon: The Fallen/ Angel: The Silver City
2nd Place: Mummy: The Rebirth
3rd Place: Mage: The Ascension (It would be easily the number 1 if there was no Paradox)
4rth Place: Werewolf: The Apocalipse
5th Place: Vampire: The Mask/ Changeling: The Dream
6th Place: Wratih: The Oblivion (their are compltely helpless against teh oblivion...)

This is only power scaling levels, roleplay experience may change during non fighting games. =P

The Gilded Duke
2007-08-19, 11:20 PM
1st Place: Demon: The Fallen/ Angel: The Silver City
2nd Place: Wraith
3rd Place: Mage: The Ascension (It would be easily the number 1 if there was no Paradox)
4rth Place: Werewolf: The Apocalipse, Changeling the Dreaming
5th Place: Vampire: The Maskerade
6th Place: Mummy


Mummys are really hard to kill, but are not that tough offensivly. Demons have some of the most powerful reliable means of destruction. A starting wraith can have a power where you can rip out someone's soul and send it directly to oblivion, no matter what plane of existance they are currently in. Mages can do anything but have paradox. Werewolves have natural agg and lots of actions and good methods of healing. A well built changeling can have more actions. They can also give their actions to other people. Changelings are also capable of doing aggrivated damage.

Vampires can themselves be very powerful, but it depends on how you build them. Generally a starting vampire will be weaker then a starting character of any of the creatures above it on the list.

With wraith you suggest that they are weak because they are powerless against oblivion. They are not. They have a special power that helps them resist the temptations of their spectre. They have special methods of going into the edge of oblivion itself and surviving.

Wraiths only seem hopeless because they are up against some of the most powerful monsters in the oWOD. Werewolf is also similarly hopeless. The great enemey of mages is ultimatly just other mages. Demon is just other Demons.

Roog
2007-08-19, 11:39 PM
Anyone who would be a witness to the vamp being no longer a vamp would likely no longer be a sleeper. A sleeper is mundane, he doesn't know about vampires.
I can find references to say that someone who knows of magic is no longer a sleeper, but not to say that someone who knows of the supernatural is no longer a sleeper.

But if you don't like the example, you can easily enough think of some other effect that does not have witnesses when it is performed, but has witnesses later.



Vulgar without witnesses is something blatantly not possible by the laws of physics that happens when there are no mortals around.

My above example of being vulgar, the blade is out of the sheath and in use and suddenly it goes from steel to silver. That's vulgar. If there were no sleepers around, it would be vulgar without witnesses.

So, 'just happening' to have the right material sword on hand: Coincidental. Sword changing materials on it's own out of the sheath? Vulgar without witnesses. Sword changing materials on it's on in front of April O'Neal and the Channel 6 news broadcast? Vulgar with witnesses.

Got it?

This is the best example of the difference that I could find.


Coincidental Magic
Coincidental magic is the only choice for mages planning on sticking around for any length of time. By couching magical Effects in chance occurrences, the mage operates in plain sight with potential Sleeper witnesses none the wiser. Such castings are referred to as static magic, as they, like the powers of the sorcerer, work within the confines of static reality. If, for example, a mage experiences financial problems (a common problem for magicians who draw the attention of the Syndicate), it might be possible for her to conjure the money she needs from thin air. Of course, there is no way that static reality will accept such an occurrence as natural. However, a much less dangerous and equally expedient solution might be to return that Publisher's Clearing House Sweepstakes letter that's on the kitchen table... and guess who the Prize Patrol pays a visit to just before the IRS seizes her assets! Static reality, and the Sleepers responsible for it, would find such a turn of events extraordinarily lucky — but in no way magical.
Why (according to your explanation) could the Mage not just pull the cash out from under the floorboards of his house, since it 'just happening' to be there?

Kurald Galain
2007-08-20, 10:29 AM
"Man, I wonder what that thing's running on?"

Precisely.

A stories in one of the mage books is about a lowly mage being chased by a huge horrendous mechanical contraption from some evil technomancer... until he manages to get it to chase him into the sight of some sleepers (non-magical mortals). They stare in amazement and go "what the f is that?!", and at that point it breaks down under paradox.



Why (according to your explanation) could the Mage not just pull the cash out from under the floorboards of his house, since it 'just happening' to be there?

He could. Within the limits of consensual believability. That is why it is easier to call down lightning during a thunderstorm, than on a sunny afternoon. And if you do it too often, you run into the domino effect (a cumulative penalty to magically doing the same thing repeatedly)

Indon
2007-08-20, 11:53 AM
Because it's not vulgar unless there's a non-awakened witness.

I think it's been established in this thread by now that this is not true, and that vulgar magic is only _less_ vulgar without witnesses.

I imagine that's a big factor in you and Shneekey thinking Mage is so powerful.

In addition, not only is Vulgar magic guaranteed to generate Paradox, but storytellers are encouraged to be _mean_ about that Paradox... to, basically, let it store up until it will cause permanently detrimental effects.

And it's never said explicitly that any kind of spirit or anything enforces Paradox. That's something that is implied in Werewolf (from Umbra thickness), or Exalted (from, well, Pattern Spiders who inflict Paradox).

Indon
2007-08-20, 11:56 AM
He could. Within the limits of consensual believability. That is why it is easier to call down lightning during a thunderstorm, than on a sunny afternoon. And if you do it too often, you run into the domino effect (a cumulative penalty to magically doing the same thing repeatedly)

Note that if this amount _was_ so much as to become Vulgar, that it would (or at least, should IMO) expend Paradox in a way appropriate to the effect. So, say you find all of this money. The money was stolen, recently, and the serial numbers are in the police system. Uh-oh. (Or, alternately, all the money was counterfeit)