You can't hear a Message, but can you hear the casting?

[sir_argo]

The spell Message insinuates that no one except you and the target hear a message that you whisper. But it says nothing about whether you can hear the actual casting of the spell. If you can hear the casting of the spell, it defeats the purpose of trying to whisper to someone.



Caster of Message:
"Omni Sayez Requim" <-- casts Message, everyone can hear that



"The guards backs are turned. Sneak past now!" <-- cannot be heard by others



Seems like the guards would hear the casting and be alerted.


Is this a case where we should deviate from RAW and say that the casting itself is also whispered and cannot be heard by anyone else?

[LeonBH]

Yes, you can hear the casting.

It's probably not meant to be a stealth spell, but a long distance communication spell. Note message can pass through walls as long as there is an indirect path from caster to target.

[Hyde]

The spell Message insinuates that no one except you and the target hear a message that you whisper. But it says nothing about whether you can hear the actual casting of the spell. If you can hear the casting of the spell, it defeats the purpose of trying to whisper to someone.



Caster of Message:
"Omni Sayez Requim" <-- casts Message, everyone can hear that



"The guards backs are turned. Sneak past now!" <-- cannot be heard by others



Seems like the guards would hear the casting and be alerted.


Is this a case where we should deviate from RAW and say that the casting itself is also whispered and cannot be heard by anyone else?

The casting has a verbal component, so it should be audible to everyone. you could argue some sort of check to make the casting less noticeable, but by RAW, anyone nearby should be able to determine that a spell was cast.

[Pex]

That is why Subtle Spell is a thing and helps make it worth playing a Sorcerer instead of a Wizard. Great fun that was.

However, Message has a range of 120 ft. You can cast it far enough away from the guards for them not to notice, but your invisible rogue friend right next to them can get the message without a problem. I like sending my familiar with our party scout as a second set of eyes. It also allows the scout to signal he wants to say something. I cast message and his response is what he wants to say. This way he can stay where he is if need be instead of returning to the party to report.

[Talamare]

You don' t need to shout it

I would just play it that it just forces a stealth check.


The casting has a verbal component, so it should be audible to everyone. you could argue some sort of check to make the casting less noticeable, but by RAW, anyone nearby should be able to determine that a spell was cast.

Where does RAW say how loud the verbal component needs to be?
I'm legit asking, because I'm not sure.

[Kuulvheysoon]

You don' t need to shout it

I would just play it that it just forces a stealth check.



Where does RAW say how loud the verbal component needs to be?
I'm legit asking, because I'm not sure.

See, this is why everyone devalues the sorcerer. No, it’s not the god-like being that the wizard is, but when people keep trying to steal one of their major class features for free (and DMs are letting them) it just hits them even harder. I rule that people have no idea what you’re casting, but they do know you’re casting.

[Talamare]

See, this is why everyone devalues the sorcerer. No, it’s not the god-like being that the wizard is, but when people keep trying to steal one of their major class features for free (and DMs are letting them) it just hits them even harder. I rule that people have no idea what you’re casting, but they do know you’re casting.

It's kinda of like how by strict raw, a caster only needs a free hand to use somatic.

So if his arms and legs are tied up, but his hands can still flutter about; then he is still able to cast.

or if he is being actively grappled, he is more or less technically still able to cast...

[DracoKnight]

It's kinda of like how by strict raw, a caster only needs a free hand to use somatic.

So if his arms and legs are tied up, but his hands can still flutter about; then he is still able to cast.

or if he is being actively grappled, he is more or less technically still able to cast...

Having just reread the somatic and material component rules, you can perform the somatics with the same hand that holds your spellcasting focus for the spell...so for Pact of the Blade Warlocks, Swords Bards, and Clerics War Caster isn’t as necessary as for other gishes.

On the topic of how spellcasting rules like to interact with the RAW in weird ways.

[LeonBH]

It's kinda of like how by strict raw, a caster only needs a free hand to use somatic.

So if his arms and legs are tied up, but his hands can still flutter about; then he is still able to cast.

or if he is being actively grappled, he is more or less technically still able to cast...

Right, but that's a thing every caster has. Grapples do not shut down spellcasting. Casting somatic component spells in front of the king will still be obvious. And silent casting of verbal component spells is 100% exclusive to Sorcerers with Subtle Spell.

[Naanomi]

Both somatic and verbal componants are implied to be noticeable and obvious in most cases. Subtle-spell or something that emulates it is the only clear workaround.

I have house-ruled that Arcane tricksters get it with Mage-Hand in the past (but not in my current list of house-rules), which worked well for me. I’ve also made a magic item that allowed subtle-spell equivalent for specific spells.

The ability for martial characters to be *sneaky* with their abilities in that way is one of the major boons they have over casters; I wouldn’t want to impinge on that too deeply

[Tanarii]

IMO a verbal component should generally be as noticeable as clearly saying anything out loud. That's not nearly as loud as many people think it is, but it's certainly loud enough to catch the attention of someone standing within 30ft of you in a totally silent place.

There are definitely times when a V component will be quieter than shouting something loud enough for someone to hear you clearly. Especially when they're 60ft away or more.

Also take into account it goes right through wooden walls, floors, etc. For those to be more than 3ft thick is very unusual IRL. It also works if there is an unblocked open path between you and the target at all, although it's questionable if that needs to be 120ft following that path or 120ft range in a straight line. (I assume the range is a straight line, and the not-straight path to the target can be any length.)

There are a bunch of spells that strongly imply to me that during the design through publishing phases, any described words or guestures in the text of the spell were intended to literally be what the V or S component are. But JC / Sage Advice has said after that point that this is not the RAI, so I guess (like many people do in this case) I'm just reading too much between the lines.


Having just reread the somatic and material component rules, you can perform the somatics with the same hand that holds your spellcasting focus for the spell...so for Pact of the Blade Warlocks, Swords Bards, and Clerics War Caster isn’t as necessary as for other gishes.War caster is generall more necessary for Valor Bards, Clerics, Druids and Paladins, because they're more likely to use a Shield, thus having no hand free for components. Even the Clerics / Paladins special ability to treat an emblazoned shield as free when it's an M-component spell doesn't help with V/S spells. (Paladins get a little bit of an out in that many of their combat smite spells are V-only)

[SharkForce]

there is also value in 1) being certain you are heard, and 2) knowing that while others can see that you cast a spell, they don't necessarily know that you're saying anything, and they definitely don't know what you are saying, or who you're saying it to.

think of it like modern encryption.... anyone competent with a basic set of tools can tell if you're broadcasting something, but encryption means they don't know what you're saying, and that's worth an awful lot of money to an awful lot of people today :P

[Talamare]

Anyone saying it must be loud enough for X, aren't right.
It doesn't NEED to be loud enough for ANYONE to hear.
There is no Feet distance labeled
There is no HINT of it using any type of speaking voice, shouting voice, whisper voice

The book is never clear on the subject, and even Sage Advice is vague on it.


So as a DM you're free to rule however you want, but try to be consistent.

Make it so that all Spell Verbal Component requires shouting if you want
or Make it that you could whisper it out.

[Naanomi]

Though we do know it is ‘chanting’ with ‘specific pitch and resonance’

[Saeviomage]

The assumption that spells must be cast in a normal speaking voice is bogus. There's no DC set for hearing a spell being cast, no "spells can be heard within X feet", no "you must speak the words in a normal speaking voice". Volume isn't listed as a quality that verbal components have. You don't become unable to cast spells if your mouth is muffled by a helmet, or your head is sealed in a box.

Only 3.5e ever had any language that said that verbal components needed to be spoken 'in a forceful manner', 2e and od&d only used it as a tag for deafness and silence to affect, 4e didn't have them at all except for rituals. 5e goes back to not stating it, except as a tag for silence.

Requiring spells to be spoken at full volume is just discouraging uses of magic that are subtle, which will push your game toward murderhoboism. If every spell I cast is automatically broadcast to everyone within 30ft, why would I bother with any spell that isn't a giant explosion? Slightly hyperbolic there... but only slightly.

Message would be a poor spell without the restriction of noisy casting... with it, it's a waste of space. That applies to a bunch of spells - thaumaturgy? Hard to use it for what it seems aimed at (ie - dramatic special effects during a seance or sermon) if you have to keep loudly speaking magic words all the time. Silent image? Pass without trace? They both seem like spells where announcing them loudly seems like a silly thing to do.

For that matter, if volume is required, then surely spellcasting would be stopped by lesser effects than silence?

Finally, I'm sure someone will bring up the 'poor' sorceror who has taken subtle spell. I say to you that he's not lost his niche if every spellcaster can potentially cast a spell undetected: because he can do it automatically, standing in plain view of his target, from an inch away. While ignoring counterspelling, silence, gags, restraints, and cheerfully enjoying a mouthful of his favourite ice cream.

[Tanarii]

Yeah, no. You guys need to be taking 3 levels in sorcerer and taking Subtle spell metamagic if you want to cast your V component spells without any possibility of being overheard.

[Talamare]

Yeah, no. You guys need to be taking 3 levels in sorcerer and taking Subtle spell metamagic if you want to cast your V component spells without any possibility of being overheard.

and no one disagrees <3

The point is that there are various volumes you could do, some have smaller chances of being heard.
It's generally why a lot of DMs will do a stealth check for it.

because that is what it boils down to, it's the DMs decision.

I would just recommend discussing at the table ahead of time, and try to keep it consistent.

[Tanarii]

Oh yeah. Sorry about being snippy. Yes, its up to a DM to decide exactly how loud a V component must be at minimum.

IMO it should be as loud as something spoke. It doesn't have to be booming, just no whispers. But that's my opinion on it, not a RAW requirement. If a DM wants to allow a new stealth check to not give away hiding after casting a non-attack spell, that's their opinion. I'm not going to demand Wotc release the RAW enforcement ninjas, and they'd deny me amyway if I tried. ;)

[Pex]

Great, another question to ask the DM how do you play the game relearning how to play depending on who is DM that day.

:smalltongue:

[Tanarii]

Great, another question to ask the DM how do you play the game relearning how to play depending on who is DM that day.

:smalltongue:
Sshhhh. Go back to sleep. There's nothing to see here and raise you from your slumber, kraken.

[LeonBH]

The official DM screen that WotC sells has rules on sounds that is neither in the PHB or DMG. A soft sound/sound you make when trying to be quiet may be audible up to 2d6 times 5ft away, whereas a normal sound may be heard up to 2d6 times 10ft away.

[SharkForce]

The official DM screen that WotC sells has rules on sounds that is neither in the PHB or DMG. A soft sound/sound you make when trying to be quiet may be audible up to 2d6 times 5ft away, whereas a normal sound may be heard up to 2d6 times 10ft away.

....

so if i whisper, that can randomly be heard from potentially 60 feet away?

i think that could use some revision. that seems a little off.

[Cespenar]

In an empty room at night, sure, a whisper can carry up to 60 ft.

For all other situations, the DM needs to fiddle with the DCs or advantage/disadvantage.

[LeonBH]

....

so if i whisper, that can randomly be heard from potentially 60 feet away?

i think that could use some revision. that seems a little off.

There is a 1/36 chance of that, yes. But well, on average, you can be heard from 35ft away. For spellcasting in terms of V components, I think it's a good place to start, since you can't actually hide the VM components without Subtle Spell. For actual whispering, a Stealth check is probably going to be called for.

[Sirithhyando]

I always thought the verbal component of the message spell was the message thus the verbal component would be audible only by the target.
I don't have the exact wording in front of me but that's how i've always seen it. Though I agree it makes the spell way stronger...

[PhoenixPhyre]

....

so if i whisper, that can randomly be heard from potentially 60 feet away?

i think that could use some revision. that seems a little off.

Whispers actually carry very well--hissing carries nicely. If you merely speak softly but in a normal fashion it carries a lot less well.

This is unrelated to the distances, but ... <shrug>

[Talamare]

Average Speaking Voice is around 60 dB, within about 10 ft away that drops to around 30~35 dB.

Average ambient noise of a quiet location is considered to be around 40 dB.

Average Whisper is considered to be about 20 dB, within about 5 ft away that drops to about ~15 dB.

The noise of your normal breathing is about 10 dB.

[Naanomi]

Average Speaking Voice is around 60 dB, within about 10 ft away that drops to around 30~35 dB.

Average ambient noise of a quiet location is considered to be around 40 dB.

Average Whisper is considered to be about 20 dB, within about 5 ft away that drops to about ~15 dB.

The noise of your normal breathing is about 10 dB.
As a teacher, I can verify that people (students) who think they are whispering inaudibly can in fact often be heard (sometimes intelligibly) from across a 40+ft classroom despite normal classroom noises.

Thinking you are whispering and actually doing so are sometimes different things, probably doubly so when chanting mystic syllables with specific pitches and intonations

[LeonBH]

As a teacher, I can verify that people (students) who think they are whispering inaudibly can in fact often be heard (sometimes intelligibly) from across a 40+ft classroom despite normal classroom noises.

Thinking you are whispering and actually doing so are sometimes different things, probably doubly so when chanting mystic syllables with specific pitches and intonations

Bringing up memories of high school here. Hehe.

[PhoenixPhyre]

As a teacher, I can verify that people (students) who think they are whispering inaudibly can in fact often be heard (sometimes intelligibly) from across a 40+ft classroom despite normal classroom noises.

Thinking you are whispering and actually doing so are sometimes different things, probably doubly so when chanting mystic syllables with specific pitches and intonations

As another high school teacher, I can confirm this.

Perception of sound is weird, as is production. And if chanting a spell's vocal components requires specific pitch and intonation, you can't whisper it--that would change both pitch and intonation. There's a reason that certain notes are much easier at loud volumes than at soft volumes, and certain sounds get muted. The frequency response of whispering is much different than that of normal speech.


Bringing up memories of high school here. Hehe.

I startle kids with that fact constantly. My classroom also echos, so I can hear them talking across the room over other people talking.

[Unoriginal]

it’s not the god-like being that the wizard is

Wizards aren't god-like beings.

[Talamare]

And if chanting a spell's vocal components requires specific pitch and intonation, you can't whisper it--that would change both pitch and intonation.

And if chanting a spell's vocal components requires specific pitch and intonation, you MUST whisper it-- or that would change both pitch and intonation.

because the required specific pitch and intonation IS a whisper...

You don't know, I don't know
Everything is vague

DM's decision
Try to keep it consistent

[PhoenixPhyre]

And if chanting a spell's vocal components requires specific pitch and intonation, you MUST whisper it-- or that would change both pitch and intonation.

because the required specific pitch and intonation IS a whisper...

You don't know, I don't know
Everything is vague

DM's decision
Try to keep it consistent

True enough. Evidence from balance and other SA responses suggests that the components are separate from any message conveyed. I certainly rule that all spells with verbal components are cast in a normal tone of voice unless Subtle metamagic is used.

[Tanarii]

The official DM screen that WotC sells has rules on sounds that is neither in the PHB or DMG. A soft sound/sound you make when trying to be quiet may be audible up to 2d6 times 5ft away, whereas a normal sound may be heard up to 2d6 times 10ft away.
That's roughly double the actual distances, of talking somewhat loudly, and something very loud (a dishwasher or washing machine). Based on both my personal testing on this IRL over the last few weeks, because I want to know my new house rule is reasonable accurate, and also the theoretically way dB for those works. About 1/2 those averages are the distances at which those two get reduced to the equivalent of speaking quietly.

Of course, if the enemy isn't expecting ANY noise at all that'd be sufficient to give you away. The DMG screen distances would be appropriate in a situation where the noise needed to be reduced to the equivalent of completely inaudible.

[LeonBH]

Pretty sure you have no specific love of Subtle Spell, Talamare, or else you wouldn't be rallying behind the cause of "give all casters stealth casting."

The disagreement is not really a big deal, as far as I'm concerned. My table runs on casting = unstealthy, but it's different flavors for different people. Among the many benefits of this Metamagic, I do appreciate Subtle Spell's ability to fall under Counterspell's radar the most, and letting that aspect leak into other classes just seems really unfair to that class, in my eyes.

For example, if Wizards were allowed stealth casting without Subtle Spell, they should always do so in combat. With each spell they cast, for the sake of consistency, they should also be given the chance to roll to hide their Counterspells, giving them potentially an unblockable Counterspell for free. Really rewards a Rogue dip for Expertise in that area, or going the UA feat for the relevant skill. A DM must consciously decide to give his caster NPCs high Perception bonuses to counteract that ability or the Wizard can pseudo-subtle cast everything.

It's just not fit to my taste. I understand it may fit yours. On the plus side, your Wizards must love you for that boon.

[LeonBH]

That's roughly double the actual distances, of talking somewhat loudly, and something very loud (a dishwasher or washing machine). Based on both my personal testing on this IRL over the last few weeks, because I want to know my new house rule is reasonable accurate, and also the theoretically way dB for those works. About 1/2 those averages are the distances at which those two get reduced to the equivalent of speaking quietly.

Of course, if the enemy isn't expecting ANY noise at all that'd be sufficient to give you away. The DMG screen distances would be appropriate in a situation where the noise needed to be reduced to the equivalent of completely inaudible.

Well, in theory, the minimum sound a human can hear is 0 decibels. That is how decibels are defined. When you fall into negative decibels, that does not denote silence, but rather the absence of audible sounds to human ears.

So if there is even a single decibel of sound that carries to you from 60ft away, in theory, you would hear it (assuming you have healthy human ears).

If you're surrounded by background noise, it is possible for that sound to be drowned out if it is too weak. You would actually subtract the values and may potentially end up with negative decibels if the remote whisper is faint enough, and the background noise is loud enough.

So with that said, I can imagine hearing someone speaking quietly from 12 meters away. They tend to not become inaudible, if not intelligible.

I suppose my point was just, you can still hear quiet things from reasonably far away in reality. Not that reality has anything to do with DnD. Hehe.

[Tanarii]

No it doesn't, and that's why I made a house rule for sound, specifically for distance at which battle is heard. I refuse to use DM screens, so I was unaware the 5e DM screen had distances on it.

My house rule is its DC 10 to hear (edit: and recognize / pay attention to) battle at 60ft. Normal speaking is half that, 30 ft, and that includes spell casting IMC. +/- 5 DC for each doubling or halving of distance.

That means for most creatures they will automatically detect it with passive perception, provided they are not distracted (-5 to PP), and even then creatures with a +5 bonus will notice it. If heavily focused on something to the equivalent of Mapping, Foraging or Tracking , no passive perception is allowed, based on the PHB rules in the Adventuring chapter. Ambient noise, like a bunch of orcs in a common room all talking to each other loudly, increases the DC. As well as making it likely the PCs will hear them first.

I also don't require stealth checks for surprise based on sound alone until the ambush element (forward scouts) are 30ft away, provided the main group is back 60ft away. IMO even in total silence there's no need for a fairly quietly moving group to make stealth checks at 60ft, so those Dex 8 HA-wearing characters aren't going to give you away if they hang back to that distance.

[LeonBH]

Glad to see your system working for you, then. My only concern is Counterspell has a 60ft range, and since they have to be within 30ft of enemy casters to hear the casting at all, it gimps that aspect of spellcasting since the spell is only effective for half its range.

However, it does keep everyone reasonably close together when battle starts, even the noisy ones. So I can see the utility there.

[Unoriginal]

From the Xanathar's:



But what about the act of casting a spell? Is it possible for someone to perceive that a spell is being cast in their presence? To be perceptible, the casting of a spell must involve a verbal, somatic, or material component. The form of a material component doesn’t matter for the purposes of perception, whether it’s an object specified in the spell’s description, a component pouch, or a spellcasting focus.

If the need for a spell’s components has been removedby a special ability, such as the sorcerer’s Subtle Spell feature or the Innate Spellcasting trait possessed by many creatures, the casting of the spell is imperceptible.
If an imperceptible casting produces a perceptible effect, it’s normally impossible to determine who cast the spell in the absence of other evidence.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Glad to see your system working for you, then. My only concern is Counterspell has a 60ft range, and since they have to be within 30ft of enemy casters to hear the casting at all, it gimps that aspect of spellcasting since the spell is only effective for half its range.

However, it does keep everyone reasonably close together when battle starts, even the noisy ones. So I can see the utility there.

That only affects spells with only verbal components. Somatic components are not subtle (by default) either and can be seen within (the usually much longer) vision range.

[LeonBH]

That only affects spells with only verbal components. Somatic components are not subtle (by default) either and can be seen within (the usually much longer) vision range.

While true, some spells exist without S components. Though I suppose they aren't in the majority.

[PhoenixPhyre]

While true, some spells exist without S components. Though I suppose they aren't in the majority.

Even M components aren't subtle either--with a focus it involves displaying the focus (at a minimum) or waving it around. With components, it involves "manipulating" them.

My default rule is that spellcasting is obvious to anyone paying attention. They may not know what is being cast, or who it targets, but they know that a spell is being cast. Especially in combat. Out of combat, attention is less acute so they may miss something (eg in a crowded room).

[LeonBH]

From the Xanathar's:

Some things, I hate XtgE for (Elven Accuracy, Eldritch Smite), while other things I love. The clarification that VSM spellcasting is perceptible by default is one thing I like very much, along with the setting of falling speed.

[LeonBH]

Even M components aren't subtle either--with a focus it involves displaying the focus (at a minimum) or waving it around. With components, it involves "manipulating" them.

My default rule is that spellcasting is obvious to anyone paying attention. They may not know what is being cast, or who it targets, but they know that a spell is being cast. Especially in combat. Out of combat, attention is less acute so they may miss something (eg in a crowded room).

This makes sense for certain types of spellcasting foci. A wand, staff, holy symbol, or component pouch might need to be handled. But as far as I know, you only need to touch the focus (not wave it around - that is an S component) to fill that requirement, making touching a crystal in your pocket a good way of hiding the M component. But I would be eager to be shown wrong on this one.

[PhoenixPhyre]

This makes sense for certain types of spellcasting foci. A wand, staff, holy symbol, or component pouch might need to be handled. But as far as I know, you only need to touch the focus (not wave it around - that is an S component) to fill that requirement, making touching a crystal in your pocket a good way of hiding the M component. But I would be eager to be shown wrong on this one.

You have to manipulate it the same way you manipulate the material component. At least for holy symbols, you have to have it visible (on a shield, around your neck, etc) and generally have to take it in a free hand (if it's not on a shield). I generally figure the motions are less detailed than a S component (although the two overlap a lot), but you still have to present it and generally do something with it.

[Tanarii]

Glad to see your system working for you, then. My only concern is Counterspell has a 60ft range, and since they have to be within 30ft of enemy casters to hear the casting at all, it gimps that aspect of spellcasting since the spell is only effective for half its range.The rule was designed to deal with three things:
- how likely is a nearby fight to draw additional enemies
- how far does an ambush group have to be from the non-ambush group
- how far away does an ambush encounter start, and a normal encounter start

(Note that 30ft and 60ft closely matches 2d6x5 & 2d6x10 starting encounter distances, which I did know the DM Screen has. I didn't know that was also the 'sound' distances they had, and what levels of sound they were using them for.)

Anyway, it's hardly surprising there'd be some unintended consequences from that. And thanks for finding them for me. :smallwink:

Also, I can think of two things that would also affect this if we're going down that rabbit hole:
- you have to be able to see a caster to counter spell anyway, so that means we're only worried about spells that are V only. (Those do exist, so it's an issue.)
- hearing V-only spells over the sounds of the battle you're in is likely to be an issue anyway


However, it does keep everyone reasonably close together when battle starts, even the noisy ones. So I can see the utility there.It's only when sight lines are interrupted. But a large majority of battles IMC are either underground, in ruins, or in areas with a fair amount of bush / forest / swamp / hills etc. Which is good in terms of general game play functionality, because Melee-oriented characters get into trouble pretty quick when you regularly start encounters at outdoor line of sight or 600ft max effective range. (That's not saying that games with game-play centered around open plains or highland moors are somehow wrong, just that players would need to take that into account and plan accordingly.)

[PhoenixPhyre]

It's only when sight lines are interrupted. But a large majority of battles IMC are either underground, in ruins, or in areas with a fair amount of bush / forest / swamp / hills etc. Which is good in terms of general game play functionality, because Melee-oriented characters get into trouble pretty quick when you regularly start encounters at outdoor line of sight or 600ft max effective range. (That's not saying that games with game-play centered around open plains or highland moors are somehow wrong, just that players would need to take that into account and plan accordingly.)

And I'd argue that outdoor LoS battles are kinda odd anyway--in most cases you have to identify the targets as being hostile (which isn't as easy as seeing "there's someone over there"). I tend to take ~100 feet as being the max "normal" starting range. Exceptions occur, but they're pretty rare.

[Talamare]

Pretty sure you have no specific love of Subtle Spell, Talamare, or else you wouldn't be rallying behind the cause of "give all casters stealth casting."

The disagreement is not really a big deal, as far as I'm concerned. My table runs on casting = unstealthy, but it's different flavors for different people. Among the many benefits of this Metamagic, I do appreciate Subtle Spell's ability to fall under Counterspell's radar the most, and letting that aspect leak into other classes just seems really unfair to that class, in my eyes.

For example, if Wizards were allowed stealth casting without Subtle Spell, they should always do so in combat. With each spell they cast, for the sake of consistency, they should also be given the chance to roll to hide their Counterspells, giving them potentially an unblockable Counterspell for free. Really rewards a Rogue dip for Expertise in that area, or going the UA feat for the relevant skill. A DM must consciously decide to give his caster NPCs high Perception bonuses to counteract that ability or the Wizard can pseudo-subtle cast everything.

It's just not fit to my taste. I understand it may fit yours. On the plus side, your Wizards must love you for that boon.

I take a neutral stance on it, because the book is vague.

A DM is free to rule on it however they, and their group feels is best.

If on your table Spellcasting with Verbal means it needs to be shouted, Awesome for your table.


If a Rogue/Wizard wants to stay out of sight during a combat situation to do a surprise Counter Spell, more power to that Rogue.
Once he is out in the open it wouldn't really work anymore. Tho that's how I would play out that situation when I DM.
Maybe you will play it out differently, and allow that Rogue to be the INVISIBLE COUNTERSPELLER OF DOOM!

It's upto to you, and your table, and your DM.
The book is vague on the subject

Play it how you want
Just try to be consistent on how you rule it at home.

[Unoriginal]

If a Rogue/Wizard wants to stay out of sight during a combat situation to do a surprise Counter Spell, more power to that Rogue.
Once he is out in the open it wouldn't really work anymore. Tho that's how I would play out that situation when I DM.
Maybe you will play it out differently, and allow that Rogue to be the INVISIBLE COUNTERSPELLER OF DOOM!


Not to be pedantic, but in this instance it wouldn't work anyway. If you make noise, your attempt at hiding end.

[Tanarii]

And I'd argue that outdoor LoS battles are kinda odd anyway--in most cases you have to identify the targets as being hostile (which isn't as easy as seeing "there's someone over there"). I tend to take ~100 feet as being the max "normal" starting range. Exceptions occur, but they're pretty rare.When LoS is going to be significantly more than my 'standard default' of 60ft, I have to start using DM judgement and figuring out what the players want to do if they're the first ones to spot the other creatures. I mean, even at 60ft it doesn't have to be automatically hostilities. These are just something I've come up with for adventurers in a hostile dungeon or other adventuring site where they expect / are fully intending to go full murder-hobo at the drop of a pin. Or know where the enemy is and are intentionally attempting to ambush.

More on topic, Message is actually an incredibly useful spell for scouts to have, and for someone to communicate back to the scouts. Provided they take into account that IMC it does normal speaking V component, and that means they may need to back off a bit to use it, depending on how loud nearby things are.

Of course, I have been subconsciously making a ruling on this, ie assuming it works a certain way: so long as there is any uninterrupted path to the target, not blocked by X thickness of Y material, the message can make it to the target. In other words, the "blocked" requirement doesn't apply to the 120ft range, it applies to the path the message takes.

[Talamare]

Not to be pedantic, but in this instance it wouldn't work anyway. If you make noise, your attempt at hiding end.

"if you make a noise"

That's the crux of the thread, now isn't?

"a noise"
"a sound"
"a chant"

It's all vague on how LOUD it is.
You're basically perpetually making noises by breathing, and after that by the literal sound of the blood in your veins moving or your heart beating.
None of those are naturally perceptible by the human ears tho

but they are noises.

So last time I'm saying this

It's vague
Use Rule of Cool, Use a Strict Code, Use Rule of Common Sense, Rule it however you want at your table
Try to be consistent

[Coffee_Dragon]

My default rule is that spellcasting is obvious to anyone paying attention. They may not know what is being cast, or who it targets, but they know that a spell is being cast.

Yes. No saying "I'm wearing big baggy robes so I can wave my focus around invisibly inside my sleeves". No saying "the verbal components of my spells are things like 'look out, Steve' so nobody can tell I'm a spellcaster in combat". Both of which are things I've seen people advise in "let's make spellcasters even better in this game" threads.

[Naanomi]

Yes. No saying "I'm wearing big baggy robes so I can wave my focus around invisibly inside my sleeves". No saying "the verbal components of my spells are things like 'look out, Steve' so nobody can tell I'm a spellcaster in combat". Both of which are things I've seen people advise in "let's make spellcasters even better in this game" threads.
Yeah I think the last conversation we had on this ended with someone defending 'mouthing words under your breath noiselessly while imperceptibly fiddling with the component in your pocket' as meeting the full VSM requirements for spellcasting. I... disagreed

[LeonBH]

Maybe you will play it out differently, and allow that Rogue to be the INVISIBLE COUNTERSPELLER OF DOOM!

If the rogue has Sorcerer levels and Subtle Spell, he can be the invisible Counterspeller of Doom indeed (provided he also has Greater Invisibility).

Otherwise, I would say there is a zero chance he can be. You have to choose counter the spell (protect your allies) or stay hidden (protect yourself).

[LeonBH]

It's only when sight lines are interrupted. But a large majority of battles IMC are either underground, in ruins, or in areas with a fair amount of bush / forest / swamp / hills etc. Which is good in terms of general game play functionality, because Melee-oriented characters get into trouble pretty quick when you regularly start encounters at outdoor line of sight or 600ft max effective range. (That's not saying that games with game-play centered around open plains or highland moors are somehow wrong, just that players would need to take that into account and plan accordingly.)

That does make it more reasonable, since melee fighting is essentially the most effective under those settings, where they have a chance to close in first before battle starts.

[Saeviomage]

Yes. No saying "I'm wearing big baggy robes so I can wave my focus around invisibly inside my sleeves". No saying "the verbal components of my spells are things like 'look out, Steve' so nobody can tell I'm a spellcaster in combat". Both of which are things I've seen people advise in "let's make spellcasters even better in this game" threads.

I think the first one is actually sort of sensible - but you're making it really really obvious that you're a caster by wearing the robes in the first place, and then you're not going to be able to move the focus with no chance of the movement being spotted... and if this is a common tactic, then "recognizing spells being cast with a focus in baggy robes" is probably taught in wizard counterspelling 101...

The second one... just no.

I think in general my idea is that if I would let someone do a task with a chance to not be noticed (pick a lock, persuade a guard, pick up an item), then I'll let the components of a spell that achieves that task be disguisable.

If something cannot be subtle (throw a grenade, stab someone), then the components won't be subtle.

[Naanomi]

I think the first one is actually sort of sensible - but you're making it really really obvious that you're a caster by wearing the robes in the first place, and then you're not going to be able to move the focus with no chance of the movement being spotted... and if this is a common tactic, then "recognizing spells being cast with a focus in baggy robes" is probably taught in wizard counterspelling 101.
Which of course is why monks and clever barbarians wear heavy robes and mutter to themselves sometimes

[Saeviomage]

There's a reason that certain notes are much easier at loud volumes than at soft volumes, and certain sounds get muted. The frequency response of whispering is much different than that of normal speech.

It is, because the purpose of whispering is not to make a really quiet noise. You're intending on having someone hear you and make out what you are saying.

If you just want to make a specific pitch and intonation, then you're not going to whisper it... but neither are you trying to make it heard by anyone other than yourself. Since there's a lower bound where voiced speech turns into whispers automatically, we're looking at something above that.

Research suggests that the quietest noise a human can make is from 48-64 dB, measured at 30cm from their face*. That's from people being asked to make the quietest "a" sound that they can. The "a" sound is one of the loudest sounds in speech**, so we've no real problem using the measurement to tell whether you can be heard. I would probably bump things up by a bit just to make it easier to maintain speech, so let's say 54-68dB at 30cm.

So - hearable over quiet ambient noise (40dB) if you're in their face. The quietest talkers are still hearable over ambient noise out to almost 5 feet. The loudest out to 30 feet.

Battle noise is most likely not going to be anywhere near ambient noise. Hitting a softball with an aluminium bat gives you 120+dB (so weapons or claws on armor is probably a fair bit louder), shouting voices are 90+, and the echos from those are going to be way over ambient noise for an extended period of time, plus add on simple things like the sound of people running around...

So - in battle, I don't think you're getting anything from being able to cast quietly: even if you have to cast at normal conversational levels, you're not getting heard.

Out of battle? Without noises to mask it, you probably call for a roll to see where someone sits in that 48-64dB range, and odds are it's the arm waving, concentration and moving lips that give you away, unless you're standing right in front of the target... in which case they're going to hear you no matter what.

*The softest sound levels of the human voice in normal subjects
Hana Šrámková, Svante Granqvist, Christian T. Herbst, and Jan G. Švec
Citation: The Journal of the Acoustical Society of America 137, 407 (2015)

**Clinical Measurement of Speech and Voice
By Ronald J. Baken, Robert F. Orlikoff
***https://www.hindawi.com/journals/tswj/2014/702723/

[Beelzebubba]

I'm harsh on it, because what usually happens is a) spellcasters try to do a thing with a spell before skill types can even ply their trade, and b) when they do it's automatic.

It's 'Rule of Cool' to let non-spellcasters have distinct advantages, and one of them is - for everyone except a Sorcerer burning points - is doing things much more on the sly.

Also, 5E has done a lot to make spells more noticeable, such as the changes to Charm Person. So, IMO it feels like an extension of their intent.

[Tanarii]

They have managed to make Magic feel like the brute force alternative to a bunch of (often sacred cow) things that can be alternatively done in a non-magical way.

Knock and Charm Person are good examples.

[Saeviomage]

They have managed to make Magic feel like the brute force alternative to a bunch of (often sacred cow) things that can be alternatively done in a non-magical way.

Knock and Charm Person are good examples.

Interesting note, knock probably comes out to about 100dB measured 30cm from your ear.

Also - if measures have already been taken to make certain spells obvious when used, that would suggest to me that the rest of the spells are not especially noticeable, which again is why I go with the "doing something with magic is roughly as detectable as doing it without magic".

[Tanarii]

Just as loud as anything else is battle is still less noticible than Knock, Thuderwave or Thinderous Smite. Those are clearly Audible out to 300ft. Using dB as a comparison, that means they're louder than a motorcycle at point blank range. That's LOUD.

My ruling of 60ft detectable if you're paying attention (+0 bonus vs DC 10) and double that if you're paying attention and good at detecting things (+5 perception bonus vs DC 15) for battle might be a tad short for particularly quiet places. But it's still much less than automatic to 300 ft.

Of course, that's not V components. That's shouting, metal on metal, and Fireballs. And interestingly, shatter spells don't have the 300 ft audible thing.