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demonslayerelf
2017-11-22, 09:25 AM
I've been working on a project to redesign combat in 5e, and I had a thought which might change things a little.

All creatures, rather than just having attacks and grapples and whatnot, possess "Momentum."
Excepting special features, you may spend momentum to do things as an Action. You get your momentum at the beginning of each of your turns, upto your limit.
Your limit being the number of attacks you can make.(Basically, convert "Extra Attack" into "Extra Momentum" features.) Bonus Action and Reaction attacks, such as off-hand strikes, flurry of blows, and attacks of opportunity, do not cost momentum, and action surge gives you more momentum, equal to your limit.
Lastly, you may use an action to give yourself more momentum on the next turn, equal to half of your limit, rounding up.

As the system is now, what would the implications be, if grappling and attacking and the like each cost 1 momentum?

clash
2017-11-22, 11:19 AM
I think in order to give real feedback on this, I would need to know what the goal of the momentum system is. What do you hope to gain from the change?

Composer99
2017-11-22, 11:21 AM
So, at 1st level, your momentum limit is 1, and you get more momentum if and when you get extra attacks?

I can see a couple of downsides:
- you really can't do much with this resource until you get more momentum;
- unless you create abilities that benefit from manipulating momentum totals round-over-round, or that require some amount of momentum (rather than just requiring an action), it would be pointless.

The upside is that this gives you some options from 5th level on for characters with martial classes, and especially for fighters.

For instance, let's say you have some kind of pinning attack that does weapon damage and restrains the target, but costs 3 momentum.

If you have 2 attacks on your turn, hence 2 momentum, you can use your "defer" action to get an extra momentum on your next turn and then use this.

Obviously, you'd need to tinker with balance so that players are actually willing to do this kind of thing, because using 2 momentum on your turn and actually getting something done seems far better than deferring and only having 3 momentum on your next turn. ("I can make two attacks this turn, then two attacks on my next turn" versus "I can accomplish nothing this turn except what I can do with a bonus actions, then make three attacks on my next turn".)

Edit to add: Maybe you can give us some examples of special actions you could take if you had 2 momentum, other than the normal "two attacks or equivalent abilities when you take the Attack action"? Could you modify other actions described in the PHB?

GalacticAxekick
2017-11-22, 11:22 AM
In the core rules we have the action: a resource you can only spend on your turn and that is replenished at the start of your next turn. Actions can be used to do a variety of things, but most creatures are limited to one action. A few features (like Extra Attack and Action Surge) grant extra actions of one type or another. Movement, bonus actions and reactions do not cost actions.

You've proposed momentum: a resource you can only spend on your turn and that is replenished at the start of your next turn. Momentum can be used to do a variety of things, but most creatures are limited to an unspecified quantity of momentum. A few features (like Extra Attack and Action Surge) grant extra momentum for some uses or others. Movement, bonus actions and reactions do not cost momentum.

Nothing has changed.

You need to change how much momentum is available, what it can be used for, or how it is replenished, for this system to be anything but a new name for the old system. You've offered one idea: the ability to save half of your momentum for your next turn. But why rename the entire system just for that? Why not say "you can save your action (half of your attacks rounded up if it's the attack action) for your next turn"?

demonslayerelf
2017-11-22, 01:31 PM
I think in order to give real feedback on this, I would need to know what the goal of the momentum system is. What do you hope to gain from the change?

So, the purpose is that I figured it would be better to alter the current system in a way that wouldn't step on too many toes, rather than introduce a new subsystem entirely. I'm writing up a 30 or so page "handbook", so I can get through all of my thoughts without doing a series of minor things that build off of eachother.

These would be used for things like martial arts and the like, some of which would be more powerful than you could justify as being balanced with a single hit. It would be easier in my mind to say X costs 2 momentum, rather than saying "In using X, you give up a second attack." This was a question of what exactly would become screwy. For instance, this WOULD mean you could grapple in place of an attack, rather than a whole action, but I'm not competent enough to know the fuller implications.


So, at 1st level, your momentum limit is 1, and you get more momentum if and when you get extra attacks?...<SNIP>
Beat by beat, here.

That is, in fact the nature of this resource. Of course, how much can you do with one attack(Other than just an attack) anyway?
That was one of the things in the plan.

And as for tinkering with making "Defer" worth it(I like that word), there are three things to note.
Most creatures would also obtain them in some form or another, meaning something big(For instance, a dragon) could defer as the party approaches, then make three attacks in addition to a breath weapon. It would be bad.
If you have a thing with 3 or whatever momentum, you can prepare and use it the next turn. A pinning attack maybe, but I was imagining more of a "Throw them up in the air, jump, and then slam them into the ground" based on athletics checks and the like. More interesting.
If you just have nothing to do; For instance, if you're a barbarian or fighter, and the people you're about to fight is out of your reach, just hold an extra attack or two, then next turn unload on them.


In most ways this changes absolutely nothing...<SNIP>

Well, a few things to note again.
Spells and whatnot are an action, not a point of momentum. On purely an attack-basis, it's INTENDED to be more or less the same.
Grappling and the like is also a point of momentum, so on even the most basic level, someone could mix grappling and attacks, or try to grapple more than once.
Round up when "Deferring" for additional momentum, not down. Not really finicky, I think.
And for the reaction; What happens when the thing you want to smack sees you glaring daggers with a longsword, then decide to not step within 5 feet?



And, what are some examples and actions in the PHB?

Well, Grappling becomes 1 Momentum cost.
I said attacks that happen as a bonus action stay the same, but I think something like Flurry of Blows would actually just grant 2 more as a bonus action, and Martial Arts would always just give you 1 more as a bonus action.

Dash, Search, Hide, etc. would just remain as an action each, but I think Dodge and Disengage would be 1/2 of your momentum(Rounding up). I think Help would do be removed and split among a few other things, but the initial thought is for it to grant the attacker advantage for a number of attacks equal to half the spent momentum(Rounding up, again) to do it.

Feint is a simple one I've made, and it's that you spend momentum to do a deception vs insight roll, and on a success you get advantage on attacks equal to the number of points you expended. Throwing and Slamming are things you can do to a grappled creature, with slamming dealing some of the creature's hit dice as damage, and throwing to deal damage similar to falling. They're probably gonna have a clause to say "It starts at one, but then you can spend additional points of momentum(Upto your Strength modifier) to do more damage."

Anyway, thanks for feedback everybody, hope I gave satisfying responses.

GalacticAxekick
2017-11-22, 06:13 PM
Spells and whatnot are an action, not a point of momentum. On purely an attack-basis, it's INTENDED to be more or less the same. So spellcasting is unchanged. Noted.


Grappling and the like is also a point of momentum, so on even the most basic level, someone could mix grappling and attacks, or try to grapple more than once. [...] Grappling becomes 1 Momentum cost.People can already do this: "When you want to grab a creature or wrestle with it, you can use the Attack action to make a special melee attack, a grapple. If youíre able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them." So grappling and shoving are unchanged. Noted.


I said attacks that happen as a bonus action stay the same, but I think something like Flurry of Blows would actually just grant 2 more as a bonus action, and Martial Arts would always just give you 1 more as a bonus action. Flurry of Blows already grants two extra Monk weapon attacks, and Martial Arts already grants one extra Monk weapon attack, both as bonus actions. So Bonus Actions are unchanged. Noted.

If not for the next few ideas, the idea of "Momentum" would've just renamed rules that already exist. So let's look at these next few ideas:


Dash, Search, Hide, etc. would just remain as an action each, but I think Dodge and Disengage would be 1/2 of your momentum(Rounding up).Dodge and Disengage are fairly weak actions, being able to use one and still deal a bit of damage might be balanced! But if making that possible is your goal, Momentum isn't the best way to do it because "half your momentum (rounded up)" scales poorly. For example, a 5th and 13th level Fighter will both be making one attack alongside their Dodge or Disengage actions, even though the 13th level Fighter should be considerably more powerful.

It might scale better if you offered a feature opposite to the Barbarian's Reckless Attack. "When you make your first attack on your turn, you can decide to attack recklessly carefully. Doing so gives you disadvantage on melee weapon attack rolls using Strength during this turn, but you gain one of the following benefits:
Attack rolls against you have disadvantage until your next turn."
Your movement does not provoke opportunity attacks until the end of your turn

1st, 5th, 13th and 20th level Fighters get 1, 2, 3 and 4 (disadvantaged) attacks under this system, rather than 0, 1, 1 and 2 normal attacks under the Momentum system.


I think Help would do be removed and split among a few other things, but the initial thought is for it to grant the attacker advantage for a number of attacks equal to half the spent momentum(Rounding up, again) to do it.Help is another underpowered action, particularly because it only advantages one attack and loses value as the party begins gaining extra attacks. But if your goal is to make it scale with extra attacks, Momentum isn't the best way to do it. A Helper with few momentum points (such as a Rogue, since it's features like Extra Attack and Action Surge that offer momentum) can't open an enemy up to the many attacks a high-momentum character (such as a Fighter), while another Fighter can. Ideally, the Help action should be useful for a member of any class.

The simplest way to make Help scale with extra attacks is to remove the "next attack" clause and replace it with a "next attacker" clause. "When you take the Help action, you can aid a friendly creature in attacking a creature within 5 feet of you. You feint, distract the target, or in some other way team up to make your allyís attack more effective. If your ally attacks The first ally to attackthe target before your next turn makes their attack rolls with advantage."


Feint is a simple one I've made, and it's that you spend momentum to do a deception vs insight roll, and on a success you get advantage on attacks equal to the number of points you expended.This actually scales perfectly well! The key difference between this and your other propositions is that it spends individual Momentum points instead of "half of your momentum (rounded up)". Halving and rounding hurts scaling by turning smooth transitions into jumps, while spending Momentum/potential attacks in order to improve an equal number of attacks scales perfectly.

In other words, this feature only works because it uses 5e's existing system. I could even rephrase it "You can use the Attack action to make a special attack, a feint. If you are able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them.

You can target one creature within your weapon's reach or range that can see you. Using your weapon, you try to feint the target by making a feint check instead of an attack roll: a Charisma (Deception) check contested by the targetís Wisdom (Insight) check. You have advantage on one attack roll against the target for every feint check that you succeed. These attacks must be made before the end of your next turn.


Throwing and Slamming are things you can do to a grappled creature, with slamming dealing some of the creature's hit dice as damage, and throwing to deal damage similar to falling. They're probably gonna have a clause to say "It starts at one, but then you can spend additional points of momentum(Upto your Strength modifier) to do more damage."Why not make these special attacks, like grappling or shoving? Spending additional momentum to deal more damage is fundamentally the same as spending more attacks to deal more damage.

demonslayerelf
2017-11-22, 06:53 PM
That's a lot to quote, so I'll just go beat by beat here, sorry if it's a little confusing.


Most of the game is unchanged, this is basically just a thing for Martials, and I don't want to do the cop out of using the spell subsystem again.


Noted. I always interpreted the idea that only one attack could be a grapple, not, theoretically, all of your attacks.


Most bonus actions are pretty unchanged, yeah. Some, almost all of them, actually, work the exact same way. There are a handful(Like the Monk things) that give more momentum instead, but an off-hand bonus or Frenzy attack is just an attack, for instance.


And I think I can sum up everything else you've said with the following line.
Is it perfect? No, it never can be. Is it done? Also, no. I haven't gone through every single one, but the notes are helpful. Except for the ones that instead say "Don't use momentum, just do this..." when I'm asking the implications of Momentum.

GalacticAxekick
2017-11-22, 07:53 PM
These are the implications Momentum:

Creatures who gain the Extra Attack feature (or similar features) can both attack and Disengage, Dodge or Help, but only at a fraction of their normal attack power. They can also advantage multiple attacks by Helping. These are cool options, but they scale poorly due to the Momentum system's "half rounded up" math.

These are the implications of your other ideas, which clarify or modify the rules without using Momentum:

Creatures who gain the Extra Attack feature (or similar features) can replace one or more of their attacks with a grapple or shove. This may or may not have been permitted by the original rules, but you make it unambiguous.
The Monk's Martial Arts and Flurry of Blows attacks can be used to grapple and shove. These are cool options and they scale well.
Creatures can use their attacks to Feint (which gives a future attack advantage). This is a cool option and it scales well.
Creatures can Throw or Slam creatures they have grappled. The costs and precise effects of these actions have not been specified, and so the implications are unclear.

With these implications in mind, I have to ask you, what is your goal with the Momentum system? If you want Momentum for the sake of Momentum, I can understand you not wanting alternatives, but I don't understand you asking about the implications. If you want Momentum in order to restrict/offer certain gameplay options or represent certain themes, I can understand you asking about the implications, but I don't understand why you wouldn't want alternatives to achieve those things.

demonslayerelf
2017-11-24, 12:34 AM
With these implications in mind, I have to ask you, what is your goal with the Momentum system? If you want Momentum for the sake of Momentum, I can understand you not wanting alternatives, but I don't understand you asking about the implications. If you want Momentum in order to restrict/offer certain gameplay options or represent certain themes, I can understand you asking about the implications, but I don't understand why you wouldn't want alternatives to achieve those things.

My goal? Well, it's pretty simple. I want to make martial combat more than "Roll the same dice in the same attack each turn." Humans- Without magic or other creatures at all- spent millennia improving this concept. Martial arts of every kind, with any weapon, in countless styles and methodologies. DnD might have an abstract combat system, but that isn't an excuse to not include these things.

As such, I started writing a thing in the Home Brewery, which I'm calling the Warrior's Handbook. It's nowhere close to being finished, but part of what I noticed is that it was getting wordy and annoying to say "You take X fewer attacks this turn to do..." In addition, it got confusing, because I end up using the word "attack" like 5 times sometimes. So I basically said, "Could I replace this concept without being needlessly complicated?" I thought of a nice name that wasn't magical or abstract- Momentum- and I posted this idea.


I hope that answers the question, but I don't understand what you mean by "Alternatives." You mean, the alternate ideas you put up for some of these things? I mean, they're fine, but I want everything combative to tie into Momentum, to specifically move away from "In place of an attack" or "As an action" stuff. The action is "Use Momentum" or "Fight" or whatever you want to say, and there's a bunch of options for it.

GalacticAxekick
2017-11-24, 01:56 AM
My goal? Well, it's pretty simple. I want to make martial combat more than "Roll the same dice in the same attack each turn." Humans- Without magic or other creatures at all- spent millennia improving this concept. Martial arts of every kind, with any weapon, in countless styles and methodologies. DnD might have an abstract combat system, but that isn't an excuse to not include these things.

As such, I started writing a thing in the Home Brewery, which I'm calling the Warrior's Handbook.I totally agree! I've been working on a similar project, and I'm super glad to see someone else trying to broaden martial characters' horizons.


It's nowhere close to being finished, but part of what I noticed is that it was getting wordy and annoying to say "You take X fewer attacks this turn to do..." In addition, it got confusing, because I end up using the word "attack" like 5 times sometimes. So I basically said, "Could I replace this concept without being needlessly complicated?" I thought of a nice name that wasn't magical or abstract- Momentum- and I posted this idea. [...] I want everything combative to tie into Momentum, to specifically move away from "In place of an attack" or "As an action" stuff.I think I understand! Most of your ideas (clarifying the grapple and shove rules, letting Martial Arts and Flurry of Blows grappleshove, the Feint, the Throw, the Slam) still use the action & attack resource system. But because saying "in the place of an attack as part of the Attack action" is a confusing mouthful, in your opinion, you've renamed the resources "Momentum".

Your bottom line seems to be giving martial characters more options, just like me. But in order to write new features and accomplish that, you feel the need to develop a clearer language. You rejected the alternative features I wrote because they didn't use the "Momentum" language you're trying to introduce, and not because they failed to give martial characters more options. Am I understanding correctly?

demonslayerelf
2017-11-24, 03:31 AM
You're understanding to a degree? I mean, it's partially because you weren't using momentum for them(Being that I'm remodeling it on momentum), but it's also because I just have different ideas. I mean, they would be fine(And there's a couple I totally agree with. Help, mostly, but I plan to make like three things out of that anyway, since there's a lot of ways to help someone in combat.), they're just not exactly what I'm thinking, ya know?

Careful Attack is cool, but it's definitely more of a class ability-type deal. I mean, it's even modeled after a class feature.
And the comment on throwing and slamming is just(In my mind, anyway) ignoring the use of throwing someone 20 feet away by using several points of momentum, dealing extra damage, rather than just dealing the damage of 4 attacks, or, respectively, throwing people to the ground, and making it hard for them to get up by expending several momentum points, rather than(Again) just dealing damage. If you're after pure damage, make the attacks.

But if you're after pure damage anyway, become a Blastlock!Warlock and totally max your cantrip damage. This is for martial options, not damage.

GalacticAxekick
2017-11-24, 08:21 AM
You're understanding to a degree? I mean, it's partially because you weren't using momentum for them(Being that I'm remodeling it on momentum), but it's also because I just have different ideas. I mean, they would be fine(And there's a couple I totally agree with. Help, mostly, but I plan to make like three things out of that anyway, since there's a lot of ways to help someone in combat.), they're just not exactly what I'm thinking, ya know? To which I would respond, what are you thinking? I can't comment on your ideas until you tell them to me.


Careful Attack is cool, but it's definitely more of a class ability-type deal. I mean, it's even modeled after a class feature.That's a fair criticism.


And the comment on throwing and slamming is just(In my mind, anyway) ignoring the use of throwing someone 20 feet away by using several points of momentum, dealing extra damage, rather than just dealing the damage of 4 attacks, or, respectively, throwing people to the ground, and making it hard for them to get up by expending several momentum points, rather than(Again) just dealing damage. If you're after pure damage, make the attacks.I'm not ignoring those ideas. You just never mentioned them. When you described those features, you described pure damage. And I quote, "Throwing and Slamming are things you can do to a grappled creature, with slamming dealing some of the creature's hit dice as damage, and throwing to deal damage similar to falling. They're probably gonna have a clause to say 'It starts at one, but then you can spend additional points of momentum(Upto your Strength modifier) to do more damage'. "

Because momentum points are functionally identical to Attack action attacks, they have no unique implications. You can't ask "what would become possible if we used momentum?" because it's just a new language for the old system.

Instead, you need to take advantage of that new language to describe the mechanics you're proposing. You have fantastic ideas there, like spending multiple points to make effects harder to resist or to increase their range. Once you put those ideas on the table, we can describe implications, like "Fighters would be able to control space and nerf enemies much more reliably."

GalacticAxekick
2017-11-24, 01:30 PM
Here's my interpretation of Momentum (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/SygdmkLgz) based on the mechanics you've proposed so far. I've renamed it Action Points (or AP) to clarify that it's for actions (not movement) and that it's in units of points. But you could sub in the name "Momentum" and it would be the same thing.

demonslayerelf
2017-11-24, 03:08 PM
To which I would respond, what are you thinking? I can't comment on your ideas until you tell them to me.
I have a lot of ideas for each one at the moment.

I WAS thinking that it should be a momentum-for-momentum thing on most of them, but then you pointed out that Fighters would be the ones Helping the best, which isn't what I was going for exactly. I think I'd say that Rogues get momentum that they can only use to Feint, Help, or something. Just, as an example.

Or on throwing and slamming, I'll cover that right below.


I'm not ignoring those ideas. You just never mentioned them. When you described those features, you described pure damage. And I quote, "Throwing and Slamming are things you can do to a grappled creature, with slamming dealing some of the creature's hit dice as damage, and throwing to deal damage similar to falling. They're probably gonna have a clause to say 'It starts at one, but then you can spend additional points of momentum(Upto your Strength modifier) to do more damage'. "

I figured the names would give away what they would do. That's on me for assuming people would understand what I meant.

But as for making them just "Special Attacks" like grappling, it's not using the momentum thing. It doesn't scale at all, specifically, unless you say "You can give up attacks etc."


Because momentum points are functionally identical to Attack action attacks, they have no unique implications. You can't ask "what would become possible if we used momentum?" because it's just a new language for the old system.

Instead, you need to take advantage of that new language to describe the mechanics you're proposing. You have fantastic ideas there, like spending multiple points to make effects harder to resist or to increase their range. Once you put those ideas on the table, we can describe implications, like "Fighters would be able to control space and nerf enemies much more reliably."

That's what this was for. I just wanted to make sure there weren't long-reaching consequences that I didn't notice. Like, an ability I was forgetting about that you could do weird things with. I'm making pages filled with various things you can do with momentum. Stances, Techniques, and things like that. When I get format and whatnot ironed out, I'll probably put them up, I was just making sure that the foundational change wouldn't do something crazy and stupid, somehow.


Here's my interpretation of Momentum (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/SygdmkLgz) based on the mechanics you've proposed so far. I've renamed it Action Points (or AP) to clarify that it's for actions (not movement) and that it's in units of points. But you could sub in the name "Momentum" and it would be the same thing.

I mean, sure. I wasn't going to do Bonus Points, they were just going to stay as-is. Casting a spell is still an action or bonus action or whatever, it's just that using momentum is your action to begin with. Call it the "Use Momentum" action, or the "Combo" or "Clash" or something action if you want a nice name for it. I like what you did with Grappling, and I did forget about shoving, so throwing being a part of that works really well.

GalacticAxekick
2017-11-24, 03:54 PM
But as for making them just "Special Attacks" like grappling, it's not using the momentum thing. It doesn't scale at all, specifically, unless you say "You can give up attacks etc."Right, because you only said that they deal damage, and it would make no sense to give up attacks for increased damage when you could just make multiple attacks.

Only after being told that the Slam and Throw features were meant to have non-damage effects can I begin to think about scaling those effects.


That's what this was for. I just wanted to make sure there weren't long-reaching consequences that I didn't notice. Like, an ability I was forgetting about that you could do weird things with. I'm making pages filled with various things you can do with momentum. Stances, Techniques, and things like that. When I get format and whatnot ironed out, I'll probably put them up, I was just making sure that the foundational change wouldn't do something crazy and stupid, somehow.What foundational change? I cannot stress enough that Momentum, as you have described it, is only a change in language. The stances and techniques (like being able to save Momentum/attacks for later turns, being able to pour Momentum/attacks into one effect, and the specific effects available) are the only things that actually effect the options available to the player and the balance of the game.

"You can spend 1 Momentum to..." is just a different way of saying "As part of the Attack action, you can make a special attack that...".

"You can spend 1 or more Momentum to..." is just a different way of saying "As part of the Attack action, you can give up one or more attacks to...".

"You can save 1 or more Momentum until your next turn" is just a different way of saying "You can give up one or more attacks in order to gain an equal number as part of the Attack action on your next turn"

"You can spend 1/2 of your momentum (rounding up) to..." is just a different way of saying "You can give up 1/2 of the attacks you could make with the Attack action (rounding up) to..."


I mean, sure. I wasn't going to do Bonus Points, they were just going to stay as-is. Casting a spell is still an action or bonus action or whatever, it's just that using momentum is your action to begin with. Call it the "Use Momentum" action, or the "Combo" or "Clash" or something action if you want a nice name for it. I just wanted to pick either a points-based language or the action-based language, but if you want to use your hybrid you're free to do so. It's functionally equivalent.


I like what you did with Grappling, and I did forget about shoving, so throwing being a part of that works really well.Thanks! Pumping Momentum/actions into a shove was a great idea on your part. I'm not sure how to model "slamming," however, and as an effect that only seems to deal damage, I don't see why the game needs it.

demonslayerelf
2017-11-24, 04:15 PM
Right, because you only said that they deal damage, and it would make no sense to give up attacks for increased damage when you could just make multiple attacks.

Only after being told that the Slam and Throw features were meant to have non-damage effects can I begin to think about scaling those effects.

What foundational change? I cannot stress enough that Momentum, as you have described it, is only a change in language. The stances and techniques (like being able to save Momentum/attacks for later turns, being able to pour Momentum/attacks into one effect, and the specific effects available) are the only things that actually effect the options available to the player and the balance of the game.

"You can spend 1 Momentum to..." is just a different way of saying "As part of the Attack action, you can make a special attack that...".

"You can spend 1 or more Momentum to..." is just a different way of saying "As part of the Attack action, you can give up one or more attacks to...".

"You can save 1 or more Momentum until your next turn" is just a different way of saying "You can give up one or more attacks in order to gain an equal number as part of the Attack action on your next turn"

"You can spend 1/2 of your momentum (rounding up) to..." is just a different way of saying "You can give up 1/2 of the attacks you could make with the Attack action (rounding up) to..."
Yes, I understand. Again, in this thread, THIS IS ALL I WAS MAKING SURE OF. It is a change in how attacking works, making it have a "power source" of it's own, rather than just being a thing you can do. All I was doing, was making sure this didn't do something stupid.


I just wanted to pick either a points-based language or the action-based language, but if you want to use your hybrid you're free to do so. It's functionally equivalent.
There isn't a change in actions. There are still actions, bonus actions, reactions, etc. I am literally only changing the act of attacking.


Thanks! Pumping Momentum/actions into a shove was a great idea on your part. I'm not sure how to model "slamming," however, and as an effect that only seems to deal damage, I don't see why the game needs it.

In my mind, it knocks people prone, makes it hard to get up, etc. That one's a little less intuitive. I am making the "Dazed" condition though, and it might do that.
I'm also making a "Crippled" condition, and it might also do that.

GalacticAxekick
2017-11-24, 04:43 PM
Yes, I understand. Again, in this thread, THIS IS ALL I WAS MAKING SURE OF. It is a change in how attacking works, making it have a "power source" of it's own, rather than just being a thing you can do. All I was doing, was making sure this didn't do something stupid.Except it isn't a change in how attacking works. The power source already exists, but just happens to be called an attack. You can make a melee weapon attack, a ranged weapon attack, a shove attempt or a grapple attempt by spending an attack.

In other words, you changing the name of the Attack action to "Use Momentum" and changing the name of its constituent attacks to "Momentum" doesn't do anything stupid. It doesn't do anything at all. Let's get to what Momentum/attacks can be used for.


There isn't a change in actions. There are still actions, bonus actions, reactions, etc. I am literally only changing the act of attacking.I know? I never you got rid of actions, bonus actions or reactions. I specifically called your system a hybrid between the action-based design language and a points-based design language, meaning that it has both.


In my mind, it knocks people prone, makes it hard to get up, etc. That one's a little less intuitive. I am making the "Dazed" condition though, and it might do that.
I'm also making a "Crippled" condition, and it might also do that.In the same way that additional Momentum/attacks can be spent to shove someone further when you shove someone away, additional Momentum/attacks could be spent to shove harder when you knock someone prone.

For one Momentum/attack, you simply knock the target prone. For two, you reduce their speed to 0 until the start of your next turn (meaning they cannot stand up, which in turn means they attack with disadvantage and that melee attacks against them have advantage). I would avoid adding effects beyond that, because being able to totally incapacitate a target for free would make martial characters overpowered.

demonslayerelf
2017-12-01, 10:08 PM
It's been a week, but I'm touching this idea again, and I actually do have 2 changes to make this time.

When you "Defer" as an action, you send half of your momentum points to your next turn, and half become additional reactions you may take. If the number is odd, choose where the odd point goes.
Additionally, when Rogues "Defer," they send half of their proficiency modifier(Relative to Rogue class levels. A Rogue 4 Wizard 4 would only send 1, for instance, as Rogue 4 only has proficiency of 2) in momentum to their reaction, in addition to normal momentum rules.