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Bartmanhomer
2017-12-02, 07:28 PM
Have there been any RPG theories in any RPG. If so, are they true or just an imaginative theory?

JBPuffin
2017-12-02, 07:30 PM
Elaborate, please - Iím curious, but have no idea what that sentence means.

Nifft
2017-12-02, 07:32 PM
"I drink, therefore I make hilarious in-character decisions for my low-intelligence character, therefore we all have fun, and therefore I am."

Bartmanhomer
2017-12-02, 07:35 PM
Elaborate, please - Iím curious, but have no idea what that sentence means.

Ok for example I mention in the OOC game that dwarves and elves use to wage war against each other at one point in D&D 3.5 game. But that just my theory.

Arbane
2017-12-02, 09:06 PM
I still don't get what you mean.

But if you mean "Are there any RPGs where characters in their worlds think they might be in an RPG", then I can think of two: that shows up as a possible Big Plot in Over the Edge, and IIRC being Illuminated in RuneQuest's Glorantha (not necessarily a good thing) means you know "it's all a game", even if you're unclear on the details.

Bartmanhomer
2017-12-02, 09:10 PM
I still don't get what you mean.

But if you mean "Are there any RPGs where characters in their worlds think they might be in an RPG", then I can think of two: that shows up as a possible Big Plot in Over the Edge, and IIRC being Illuminated in RuneQuest's Glorantha (not necessarily a good thing) means you know "it's all a game", even if you're unclear on the details.

That the fourth wall break. I meant in historical RPG in the RPG world timeline.

Arbane
2017-12-02, 09:46 PM
That the fourth wall break. I meant in historical RPG in the RPG world timeline.

Well, pretty much any modern-day or futuristic RPG should have RPGs in it, obviously. Otherwise, the only thing I can think of was a pool in Exalted that seemed to lead to a MUSH-like realm. (And the Fair Folk, who are like really obnoxious LARPers.)

But generally, RPGs try to avoid recursion (https://xkcd.com/244/).

JeenLeen
2017-12-02, 11:05 PM
I'm also not following what you mean.
RE: "Ok for example I mention in the OOC game that dwarves and elves use to wage war against each other at one point in D&D 3.5 game. But that just my theory. "
Are you saying something OOC about a game you are playing IC, like making up a theory you the player have about what is the history in-game? What do you mean by 'just my theory'--by which I mainly ask, do you mean this is just an example you are making up ('my theory' = 'my example') or it is a theory you, as one player, have about the setting that may or may not be true?
There's plenty of games where the exact canon is not specified, or at least not known by the PCs, so a lot of it is theories the PCs (and players) may or may not believe to be the truth.
My personal theory about the Mage setting in oWoD is that history changes based on belief. So while in about 100 AD it was true that there were dragons in the 2000 BCs, in the modern days that is no longer the case in the 2000 BCs since the modern paradigm has changed history. I don't think that's canon, but I don't think mages in-game could disprove it either (or they'd die of paradox from Time magic trying to prove it, if theoretically they could prove it.)

RE: "I meant in historical RPG in the RPG world timeline."
What do you mean by "historical RPG"? And is the preposition 'in' really what you mean in both places?

Not meaning to offend, but I'm having trouble parsing what your sentence means, and I'm not sure if it's that the idea is very esoteric and hard to put into words and/or there is a minor typo that is obfuscating what you mean.

To look at another interpretation: I think some games do allow players to put buy-in into world-building at game-start, so a theory you have about the setting could be made canon if you wish it to be. I'm not very familiar with these games, though.


Well, pretty much any modern-day or futuristic RPG should have RPGs in it, obviously. Otherwise, the only thing I can think of was a pool in Exalted that seemed to lead to a MUSH-like realm. (And the Fair Folk, who are like really obnoxious LARPers.)

But generally, RPGs try to avoid recursion (https://xkcd.com/244/).

To go with Arbane's interpretation, I think the Games of Divinity in Exalted could potentially be really distracting RPGs, and maybe the Primoridials making reality was their equivalent of a cool RPG (until the creations killed/imprisoned them).
In oWoD Mage, I think there's some canon Marauders who think everything is a video game. Also, such seems a valid way to play a Reality Hacker (sub-faction within the Virtual Adepts), though it is not the norm for that sub-faction. I loved playing as PC who thought everything was a video game. His hope was that, if he did 'good enough', he'd Ascend and become a real person outside the game.

There's one video game RPG I know of where everything's a video game, but I'll spoiler it since it's a HUGE spoiler
the Star Ocean games. I forget the exact one where this is a major plot point, but it's the one released for the Playstation II, not the earlier one about Claude and Rena. Though it makes it clear that all the Star Ocean games take place in a section of an MMORPG that has been sealed off due to the AIs 'hacking' the system.
And, of course, there's the .SIGN//hack and other similar games where you play as players who play as PCs in a multi-player online RPG. I heard there's a Sword Art Online game, too, now.

Bartmanhomer
2017-12-02, 11:10 PM
I'm also not following what you mean.
RE: "Ok for example I mention in the OOC game that dwarves and elves use to wage war against each other at one point in D&D 3.5 game. But that just my theory. "
Are you saying something OOC about a game you are playing IC, like making up a theory you the player have about what is the history in-game? What do you mean by 'just my theory'--by which I mainly ask, do you mean this is just an example you are making up ('my theory' = 'my example') or it is a theory you, as one player, have about the setting that may or may not be true?
There's plenty of games where the exact canon is not specified, or at least not known by the PCs, so a lot of it is theories the PCs (and players) may or may not believe to be the truth.
My personal theory about the Mage setting in oWoD is that history changes based on belief. So while in about 100 AD it was true that there were dragons in the 2000 BCs, in the modern days that is no longer the case in the 2000 BCs since the modern paradigm has changed history. I don't think that's canon, but I don't think mages in-game could disprove it either (or they'd die of paradox from Time magic trying to prove it, if theoretically they could prove it.)

RE: "I meant in historical RPG in the RPG world timeline."
What do you mean by "historical RPG"? And is the preposition 'in' really what you mean in both places?

Not meaning to offend, but I'm having trouble parsing what your sentence means, and I'm not sure if it's that the idea is very esoteric and hard to put into words and/or there is a minor typo that is obfuscating what you mean.

To look at another interpretation: I think some games do allow players to put buy-in into world-building at game-start, so a theory you have about the setting could be made canon if you wish it to be. I'm not very familiar with these games, though.



To go with Arbane's interpretation, I think the Games of Divinity in Exalted could potentially be really distracting RPGs, and maybe the Primoridials making reality was their equivalent of a cool RPG (until the creations killed/imprisoned them).
In oWoD Mage, I think there's some canon Marauders who think everything is a video game. Also, such seems a valid way to play a Reality Hacker (sub-faction within the Virtual Adepts), though it is not the norm for that sub-faction. I loved playing as PC who thought everything was a video game. His hope was that, if he did 'good enough', he'd Ascend and become a real person outside the game.

There's one video game RPG I know of where everything's a video game, but I'll spoiler it since it's a HUGE spoiler
the Star Ocean games. I forget the exact one where this is a major plot point, but it's the one released for the Playstation II, not the earlier one about Claude and Rena. Though it makes it clear that all the Star Ocean games take place in a section of an MMORPG that has been sealed off due to the AIs 'hacking' the system.
And, of course, there's the .SIGN//hack and other similar games where you play as players who play as PCs in a multi-player online RPG. I heard there's a Sword Art Online game, too, now.

Ok one of the players was talking about Dwarves enemies in OOC. And I was making a theory that is possible dwarves and high elves were enemies at one point which lead to a war against them. I hope that clears it a bit.

JeenLeen
2017-12-02, 11:28 PM
Ok one of the players was talking about Dwarves enemies in OOC. And I was making a theory that is possible dwarves and high elves were enemies at one point which lead to a war against them. I hope that clears it a bit.

That does clarify. Thank you.

To me, that's just people talking out-of-game about what could be possible in-game. Not really different from speculation in the real world, except the truth might not be a solid thing (that is, the DM may not have decided yet why the dwarves are enemies in the present.) So I reckon this would be the case in most every game, since players would speculate about the motivations and history of individuals and societies in the setting.

I guess games that have a more fully developed metaplot would have it be true or false more often, instead of undecided, though that assumes the DM is adhering to the canonical lore instead of winging it. Also, in some games (oWoD comes to mind), the history of the setting is not internally consistent. Even if belief doesn't rewrite history, the history as known by one supernatural group (and seemingly declared as canon by the rulebooks) is contradictory to the canon in another rulebook.

Or does my answer make you thing I still misunderstand?

Arbane
2017-12-02, 11:28 PM
Ok one of the players was talking about Dwarves enemies in OOC. And I was making a theory that is possible dwarves and high elves were enemies at one point which lead to a war against them. I hope that clears it a bit.

No, it really doesn't.

Oh, wait, I THINK I get it - you're asking if there's any RPGs where the players speculating on facts in the game can make them true?

Yes. Pretty much any RPG run by a GM who's willing to improvise.

I think the French RPG Donjon has specific rules for PCs' actions letting the players define some facts about their circumstances, and so does Adventure's 'Inspiration' points. Feng Shui says that the GM shouldn't stop PCs from adding details to a scene if it'll let them do a cool stunt.

Bogwoppit
2017-12-03, 03:52 AM
... Pretty much any RPG run by a GM who's willing to improvise.

I think the French RPG Donjon has specific rules for PCs' actions letting the players define some facts about their circumstances, and so does Adventure's 'Inspiration' points. Feng Shui says that the GM shouldn't stop PCs from adding details to a scene if it'll let them do a cool stunt.
Yeah, lots of GMs do this. I play in a groups that are all sharing GM duties and building the world together, so its normal for us.

There are plenty of game systems that have mechanics specifically for the players to add stuff to the game - stuff that has an immediate effect, like in an action scene, or stuff with a longer setting effect, like adding to a game's back story.
More examples: Dr Who Adventures in Time and Space, Rocket Age and others using that system - players get to change the story by spending points during play.
Microscope (not a very traditional RPG, but marketed as one, so I'll allow it) - players routinely get to change the whole setting history, which is practically the whole point of the game (look it up, it's awesome fun).

Bartmanhomer
2017-12-03, 08:59 AM
That does clarify. Thank you.

To me, that's just people talking out-of-game about what could be possible in-game. Not really different from speculation in the real world, except the truth might not be a solid thing (that is, the DM may not have decided yet why the dwarves are enemies in the present.) So I reckon this would be the case in most every game, since players would speculate about the motivations and history of individuals and societies in the setting.

I guess games that have a more fully developed metaplot would have it be true or false more often, instead of undecided, though that assumes the DM is adhering to the canonical lore instead of winging it. Also, in some games (oWoD comes to mind), the history of the setting is not internally consistent. Even if belief doesn't rewrite history, the history as known by one supernatural group (and seemingly declared as canon by the rulebooks) is contradictory to the canon in another rulebook.

Or does my answer make you thing I still misunderstand?
No you sum it up right.

No, it really doesn't.

Oh, wait, I THINK I get it - you're asking if there's any RPGs where the players speculating on facts in the game can make them true?

Yes. Pretty much any RPG run by a GM who's willing to improvise.

I think the French RPG Donjon has specific rules for PCs' actions letting the players define some facts about their circumstances, and so does Adventure's 'Inspiration' points. Feng Shui says that the GM shouldn't stop PCs from adding details to a scene if it'll let them do a cool stunt.
I'm glad that you understand. :smile:

RazorChain
2017-12-03, 11:47 PM
Any improvising GM worth his salt steals his players ideas (if they are good). If the PCs are investigating a disappearance of couple of children and see their ghosts pointing at the well. The players of course misinterpret the clue and think the ghosts were pointing at the forest beyond the well. Then the players theorize that those elves in the forest were WAY too nice and helpful and conclude that they are baby eating monsters.

Now the adventure shifts from finding a couple of missing children that fell down the old well to exposing an evil elven cannibalistc tribe!

weckar
2017-12-04, 04:35 AM
BMH, I think your threads may take off a little more smoothly if you put your examples and what you wanted to get out of the thread in your initial post?

From the way I read you thus far, it seems you are talking about 'canon' theories in RPG settings, or something?

Bartmanhomer
2017-12-04, 05:34 AM
BMH, I think your threads may take off a little more smoothly if you put your examples and what you wanted to get out of the thread in your initial post?

From the way I read you thus far, it seems you are talking about 'canon' theories in RPG settings, or something?

Really? I didn't realize that. :confused:

RedMage125
2017-12-06, 12:06 PM
Well, pretty much any modern-day or futuristic RPG should have RPGs in it, obviously.

XCrawl had people play a Tabletop RPG called "DungeonBattle". And it was people LARP-ing that game and ending up fighting real ghouls that led to the creation of the Xcrawl games.

Douche
2017-12-06, 02:30 PM
I just read the thread and I want to share my experience.

I once had a toy boat but it cracked so that I could no longer hear the ocean inside it. When my aunt asked me about the crack, I revealed to her that the sliding door was left open.

Mordaedil
2017-12-07, 02:53 AM
I was going to guess you were wondering about setting myths.

Well, generally everything expanding one or two generations of any given race is going to be considered myths by that race. We're seeing it happen today with contemporary history, where there's a lot of thoughts of previously documented wars and we wonder what is true of any of the reasons given behind them and we start to romanticize them too. It is also happening to the first world war right now and we're seeing the coming generation not understand the lessons taught to us by the 2nd world war and repeating the same mistakes.

Uhm, but anyways, usually a lot of myths are presented in the setting details for whatever game you are running, but any DM worth their salt will be willing to allow general new myths to be established for the game as long as it does not conflict with other information.

Which can be really hard to pull off.