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Khi'Khi
2017-12-18, 01:00 AM
What are some questions your players or your GM seem to always ask that just drive you up a wall?

Mine's in the title. I can't stand when we finish an epic fight, the GM is trying to narrate, set a cinematic pace, or drop some plot development, only for one player to break the mood with "Do we level up yet?" Or something to that effect. It makes me want to respond with "Oh, shut it! Every time you ask I subtract 100 experience!"

Darth Ultron
2017-12-18, 01:06 AM
I think mine might be the vague ''Can my character do something or try something''.

I hate when players ask this, as it is such a waste of time, as the answer is always ''yes'' . It often takes so long to train players that they can have a character try to do anything they want....and they don't have to ask ''if'' they can try before they try.

RazorChain
2017-12-18, 01:19 AM
What are some questions your players or your GM seem to always ask that just drive you up a wall?

Mine's in the title. I can't stand when we finish an epic fight, the GM is trying to narrate, set a cinematic pace, or drop some plot development, only for one player to break the mood with "Do we level up yet?" Or something to that effect. It makes me want to respond with "Oh, shut it! Every time you ask I subtract 100 experience!"




Seems that your player extrinsic motivation is decreasing their intrinsic motivation. Playing the game for rewards is more important to them than playing the game for fun. I'm sorry for you but the game you are playing has conditioned your players through it's reward system so they'll keep pulling that lever in hope for rewards.

Now you just have to recondition your players. They'll get their rewards when you start packing your bags, when you have stopped the game or they'll have to train or only gain a level in a downtime, not in the middle of an adventure.

AMFV
2017-12-18, 03:16 AM
Seems that your player extrinsic motivation is decreasing their intrinsic motivation. Playing the game for rewards is more important to them than playing the game for fun. I'm sorry for you but the game you are playing has conditioned your players through it's reward system so they'll keep pulling that lever in hope for rewards.

Now you just have to recondition your players. They'll get their rewards when you start packing your bags, when you have stopped the game or they'll have to train or only gain a level in a downtime, not in the middle of an adventure.

Alternatively, gaining XP might be the part that OP's players find fun, more so than narration or what-not.

RazorChain
2017-12-18, 03:22 AM
Alternatively, gaining XP might be the part that OP's players find fun, more so than narration or what-not.


Yes that's what I was saying, it's what I was referring to as a reward system, people want rewards, rewards are fun.

AMFV
2017-12-18, 03:37 AM
Yes that's what I was saying, it's what I was referring to as a reward system, people want rewards, rewards are fun.

I was mostly trying to point out that "playing the game for fun" is true in both cases. If the thing I find most fun is plot development and narrative advancement, then I'd have the same issues as OP. Whereas if leveling up is what I find fun, then I'll have more fun knowing if I've advanced.

RazorChain
2017-12-18, 03:45 AM
I was mostly trying to point out that "playing the game for fun" is true in both cases. If the thing I find most fun is plot development and narrative advancement, then I'd have the same issues as OP. Whereas if leveling up is what I find fun, then I'll have more fun knowing if I've advanced.

Extrinsic motivation means you do things for reward while intrinsic motivation means you do a thing because you enjoy them. If my players enjoyment of my game was centered around getting XP then I would be sad too

Metahuman1
2017-12-18, 03:49 AM
"What's my X bonus again/What die do I roll?"


I don't mind if your brand new to the system.

I do however mind if we've been running this campaign for three months and you STILL can't figure out that D20 is always the one you use for skill checks and saves, and were really basic function's of the character have you constantly asking this question of me. (Seriously, how many times do you have to roll an attack or a save to figure out how to roll the D20, add and give me a total!)

AMFV
2017-12-18, 03:52 AM
Extrinsic motivation means you do things for reward while intrinsic motivation means you do a thing because you enjoy them. If my players enjoyment of my game was centered around getting XP then I would be sad too

XP is NOT A REAL REWARD. It's made up, the same way that RP is made up. Those are both intrinsic. You aren't getting a shot of heroin every XP point you get, you aren't getting money for it. The rewards you're getting are the same as points in a football game. Those rewards are only meaningful in the context of the game. In the same exact way that RP and narrative advancement is not meaningful.

And it's totally fine that you don't intrinsically enjoy the experience of leveling up and planning, but the language you are using is VERY strongly implying that what you do enjoy is the superior option and the other is a counterfeit. As somebody who enjoys both that's bull****.

icefractal
2017-12-18, 08:44 AM
Whether or not you're motivated by XP, there's no need to ask immediately after the fight. Are people really doing level-up in the middle of a session? Because that sounds like a great way to waste everyone's time. Figure out XP at the end of session, level-up between games, and avoid annoying interruptions.

Slipperychicken
2017-12-18, 09:00 AM
As a player, I ask about experience, treasure, or other rewards when I think the GM may have forgotten to calculate or award it. Usually the question is a few minutes later, little nudge like "Uhh hey, GM_Name, did you calculate experience for these guys?" or "Should we have gotten XP for that battle?". Though it can sometimes wait until after the session's over, I just worry whether I'll forget to even ask by then.

What annoys me is people who have played the same game for years, but still don't get the basics. My group has been playing 5e on and off since 2014, and they still need to be reminded, every single roll, that proficiency adds to attack rolls, skill, and ability checks and not to damage. A similar thing happens with shadowrun. Does it really take some genius-level intellect or great dedication to remember this kind of thing?

Hyooz
2017-12-18, 09:32 AM
I find that asking about stuff like experience after a fight tends to come from people new to the DM. I tend to handle XP and that sort of thing at the end of sessions, which people adjust to fine, but if I have some new people that don't know that, I'll get the question and just let them know "oh yeah, you got XP, I'll let you know how much at the end of the session."

For me, it's not a specific question, but more of a series of questions/rolls anytime I describe a room. I know it comes from different gaming styles, but if you walk into a room and I describe what's in it, that doesn't mean we need to spend the next 20 minutes with "I search the tapestry *rolls*." "I search the bed *rolls*." "I search under the bed *rolls*." "I search the... *gunshot*"

Especially when you aren't searching for anything in particular.

Jay R
2017-12-18, 10:10 AM
Extrinsic motivation means you do things for reward while intrinsic motivation means you do a thing because you enjoy them. If my players enjoyment of my game was centered around getting XP then I would be sad too

Most people are motivated by both. Nobody can play D&D motivated only by Xp, because it would be much easier to simply stay home and make a character sheet with "1,000,000 xps" written on it.

So, since virtually all players are playing with both motivations, when the enjoyment of the encounter is over, it's perfectly reasonable to turn to the other goal of xps.

The only "annoyance" in this example is that some player was past the enjoyment of the encounter a few seconds before the DM was.

No big deal. They're enjoying the encounters, or they wouldn't come back.

The game is a success. Be proud.

Douche
2017-12-18, 10:10 AM
Not exactly in line with the thread but I hate when people want to do shopping during game time. It's so time consuming and boring for everyone. Even worse if they want something custom. I prefer to do shopping and/or inventory management stuff through text message/email. Then I just tell my players to screenshot the text to verify the item later on (which also saves me the effort of having to print them magic items)

I had this one DM, I would always try to do this with him - which was exacerbated by the fact that he gave us stupid amounts of gold, and I was the party treasurer so I felt responsible to spend it. I'd text him "Hey, I want to buy boots of Spider Climbing" and he'd be all "I like to roleplay shopkeeper encounters" which ultimately was just grating for everyone, and I feel like the other players resented me for taking up so much game time even though I was buying magic items for their benefit. Plus the shopkeeper encounters lasted maybe 30 seconds before it devolved into "I want to buy X, Y, Z" "Okay, roll investigation to find a shop that has it. Okay it'll be 4000 gold" which sounds expedited but in reality it still takes way too goddamn long when it could all be resolved via text message.

Psyren
2017-12-18, 11:00 AM
XP is NOT A REAL REWARD. It's made up, the same way that RP is made up. Those are both intrinsic. You aren't getting a shot of heroin every XP point you get, you aren't getting money for it. The rewards you're getting are the same as points in a football game. Those rewards are only meaningful in the context of the game. In the same exact way that RP and narrative advancement is not meaningful.

And it's totally fine that you don't intrinsically enjoy the experience of leveling up and planning, but the language you are using is VERY strongly implying that what you do enjoy is the superior option and the other is a counterfeit. As somebody who enjoys both that's bull****.

Agreed with this. Though I will say that our games are just "okay, you all level now" and we can pretty much tell when it's about to happen (usually after a climactic battle or major plot thread getting resolved) so nobody needs to ask.


Not exactly in line with the thread but I hate when people want to do shopping during game time. It's so time consuming and boring for everyone. Even worse if they want something custom. I prefer to do shopping and/or inventory management stuff through text message/email. Then I just tell my players to screenshot the text to verify the item later on (which also saves me the effort of having to print them magic items)

This is fine with an experienced group, but handing newer players some gp and turning them loose on an item list can go wrong in a dozen ways, if they even bother to do it. So I can see value in shopping while everyone is together. They should be trying to do it at the beginning or end though.

Slipperychicken
2017-12-18, 11:32 AM
For me, it's not a specific question, but more of a series of questions/rolls anytime I describe a room. I know it comes from different gaming styles, but if you walk into a room and I describe what's in it, that doesn't mean we need to spend the next 20 minutes with "I search the tapestry *rolls*." "I search the bed *rolls*." "I search under the bed *rolls*." "I search the... *gunshot*"


I think it's possible to get players to accept a different way of doing things. My GM would likely just stop me, ask if it's my character's intention to search the whole room, make one roll to represent the entire searching process, and move on.

King of Nowhere
2017-12-18, 11:34 AM
"What's my X bonus again/What die do I roll?"


I don't mind if your brand new to the system.

I do however mind if we've been running this campaign for three months and you STILL can't figure out that D20 is always the one you use for skill checks and saves, and were really basic function's of the character have you constantly asking this question of me. (Seriously, how many times do you have to roll an attack or a save to figure out how to roll the D20, add and give me a total!)

mine too. And that player of mine who does it has been playing for two years now.

that, in addition to "but I have a 12 [notice: she still hasn't learned the difference between ranks and modifiers] in knowledge: arcana" or "but I have dexterity 15" when talking about something completely unrelated. like "make a spot check" "rolls" "you failed" "but i have intelligence 20 +5 so I have 25 [notice: also the distinction between a stat and its modifier is a bit hazy]"

Geddy2112
2017-12-18, 12:33 PM
I don't mind being asked about loot, treasure, EXP, or similar questions. I do mind being interrupted mid sentence for such. Really, I hate being interrupted, regardless of the situation. This could be anything from "I roll X" in the middle of my sentence, or "what do the bodies have on them" when I was just about to describe it. I don't mind if players ask me these things, or describe their character actions, but wait for me to finish. When the DM is talking, shut up and listen.

I will say that I second the "what do I add to attack?" and similar questions unless the player is new. This really infuriates me when this kind of question is brought up in the middle of roleplaying-you could ask this anytime but you chose a tense roleplay moment to figure out your strength modifier?
We recently booted a player from our group because of their inability/unwillingness to learn. After six months at our pathfinder table(with a year or so experience in 5e) the player could not figure out what a standard action was, or how to determine their attack roll. Combined with asking this to interrupt the DM or other players, they were unanimously kicked.

Mr Beer
2017-12-18, 02:51 PM
I don't mind being asked about loot, treasure, EXP, or similar questions. I do mind being interrupted mid sentence for such. Really, I hate being interrupted, regardless of the situation.

This.

Once I finish describing exactly how the Emperor of Doom topples from his throne and falls into tiny sinister clockwork pieces or whatever, go ahead and ask me how much XP you get. Just don't do it mid sentence.

I wrap up in a short paragraph anyway. I guess if I acted out a full Hamlet-length soliloquy for every major villain death, it might get old.

BWR
2017-12-18, 03:10 PM
I think mine might be the vague ''Can my character do something or try something''.

I hate when players ask this, as it is such a waste of time, as the answer is always ''yes'' . It often takes so long to train players that they can have a character try to do anything they want....and they don't have to ask ''if'' they can try before they try.

I choose to interpret this question as "are there any obvious reasons that my character is aware of but I as the player am not why my intended course of action would fail or have undesirable consequences?"
Maybe my players are different than yours, because this has so far been the correct interpretation.

Airk
2017-12-18, 03:14 PM
XP is NOT A REAL REWARD. It's made up, the same way that RP is made up. Those are both intrinsic. You aren't getting a shot of heroin every XP point you get, you aren't getting money for it. The rewards you're getting are the same as points in a football game. Those rewards are only meaningful in the context of the game. In the same exact way that RP and narrative advancement is not meaningful.

And it's totally fine that you don't intrinsically enjoy the experience of leveling up and planning, but the language you are using is VERY strongly implying that what you do enjoy is the superior option and the other is a counterfeit. As somebody who enjoys both that's bull****.

Yes, exactly, this. There are no rewards in RPGs that are actually extrinsic. They are all just part of the activity. At "worst" XP gives you a way to measure how well you are doing.

Jay R
2017-12-18, 03:41 PM
Yes, exactly, this. There are no rewards in RPGs that are actually extrinsic. They are all just part of the activity. At "worst" XP gives you a way to measure how well you are doing.

Also, it's her responsibility to track it. The player might be asking, not out of a greedy desire for points, but from a mature approach to meeting her responsibilities to the game.

Guizonde
2017-12-18, 03:56 PM
"what's the npc's name?"

*and a thousand dm's just head-desked simultaneously*

i've gotten really fast at improvising names to respond to this question, some with more success than others. "maurice the barkeep"? plausible. naming his son "puke"... eeeeeh, less so.

i occasionnally help out dm's, which leads to oddball names such as "frankalice" (awesome npc who lived on as the name for my follow-up character), "john-wrench the techpriest", and "sir ellipse" (viz, his name is always skipped before it's pronounced).

unfortunately, it's true for my friends as much as my npc's. my nicknames tend to stick like gum in a carpet. one of my dm's is still giving me grief for naming one of his bad guys "easy target" (even if it was true). hell, i nicknamed my pf dm "boss" shortly after meeting him, since he's got a very business-like tone of voice. without him saying anything, even his childhood friends have started calling him that.

said boss usually deflects the "name the npc" question directly to me nowadays. he just rolls with it so long as it's vaguely suitable and not overly vulgar or shocking ("groin-attack" gorski was a bit too unsubtle for a dwarf bouncer).

Faily
2017-12-18, 04:06 PM
"what's the npc's name?"

*and a thousand dm's just head-desked simultaneously*



Ding-ding! We have this thread's winner. :smallbiggrin:

While there are some questions that irk me, I've mostly gotten past the point of making too much a big deal out of it, but "name of the random NPC" will always be one that makes me and other GMs I know pull their hair in frustration.

Tinkerer
2017-12-18, 04:16 PM
Ding-ding! We have this thread's winner. :smallbiggrin:

While there are some questions that irk me, I've mostly gotten past the point of making too much a big deal out of it, but "name of the random NPC" will always be one that makes me and other GMs I know pull their hair in frustration.

This one doesn't bother me much now since I started carrying a list of NPC names with me. Before that though it got me every time.

Jama7301
2017-12-18, 05:56 PM
I've gotten "What's my thing that does the thing..." from a player before. That was a fun minute to suss out, full of me listing things with them answering "yeah" or "no" and "wait, what's that one again"?

Jay R
2017-12-18, 06:06 PM
"what's the npc's name?"

*and a thousand dm's just head-desked simultaneously*

Not mine. I usually already have a medieval or fantasy background for the location, so I have plenty of available names.

The NPC is supposed to be Welsh? Ewan, Llewelyn, Gwydion; Angharad, Tanwystyl, Eilonwy.

Nordic? Erik, Unferth, Hrothgar, Sigurd; Astrid, Gunnhilda, Sieglinde.

Middle Eastern? Ali, Jafar, Hazim, Abraham; Fatima, Sheba, Judith.

Halfling? Halfast Bolger, Fredegar Oldbuck; Rosie Proudfoot, Belladonna Burrows.

FreddyNoNose
2017-12-18, 06:15 PM
What are some questions your players or your GM seem to always ask that just drive you up a wall?

Mine's in the title. I can't stand when we finish an epic fight, the GM is trying to narrate, set a cinematic pace, or drop some plot development, only for one player to break the mood with "Do we level up yet?" Or something to that effect. It makes me want to respond with "Oh, shut it! Every time you ask I subtract 100 experience!"

XP is none of their business.

RazorChain
2017-12-18, 06:46 PM
Most people are motivated by both. Nobody can play D&D motivated only by Xp, because it would be much easier to simply stay home and make a character sheet with "1,000,000 xps" written on it.

So, since virtually all players are playing with both motivations, when the enjoyment of the encounter is over, it's perfectly reasonable to turn to the other goal of xps.

The only "annoyance" in this example is that some player was past the enjoyment of the encounter a few seconds before the DM was.

No big deal. They're enjoying the encounters, or they wouldn't come back.

The game is a success. Be proud.

Sure that's why I said it seemed that their motivation for reward seemed to be stronger than their enjoyment of the game, implying that they indeed had both. IME XP has never been awarded until the session is over.

johnbragg
2017-12-18, 07:02 PM
What are some questions your players or your GM seem to always ask that just drive you up a wall?

Mine's in the title. I can't stand when we finish an epic fight, the GM is trying to narrate, set a cinematic pace, or drop some plot development, only for one player to break the mood with "Do we level up yet?" Or something to that effect. It makes me want to respond with "Oh, shut it! Every time you ask I subtract 100 experience!"

This is 3X specific, but I'm going to plug my experience houserule anyway. There are no XP, basically. You level up after 10 Average Difficulty Encounters. Hard encounters count double, easy encounters give you half. (This is faster than the WOTC-suggested 13 1/3, but makes the accounting easier).

So at most, the player is asking if this encounter was Easy, Average or Hard.

But that doesn't help when the player asks "IS there any loot" while you're giving the cinematic description of just exactly how the defeated Big Bad crumbles, sometimes revealing a new plot hook.

Psyren
2017-12-18, 07:17 PM
XP is none of their business.

It is in 3.5 - they need to spend it on things, so knowing how much they have is important.

Other systems this might be true, but only because it's not that important to track anyway.

mephnick
2017-12-19, 12:38 AM
"what's the npc's name?"

Same quote that kills me, different reasons.

As in, "I've said this characters name at least 5 times every week for 2 months, how the **** are you so inattentive?" reasons.

I have a couple players that refuse to learn the names of NPCs or party members. I think I should start docking XP every time they ask that question.

Guizonde
2017-12-19, 02:35 AM
Same quote that kills me, different reasons.

As in, "I've said this characters name at least 5 times every week for 2 months, how the **** are you so inattentive?" reasons.

I have a couple players that refuse to learn the names of NPCs or party members. I think I should start docking XP every time they ask that question.

i've been guilty of that for minor npc's, but in my defense, i've currently got 3 tables running as a player and usually confuse two or more npc's together. i write down some names, but not all of them and i can't always find them in time, so i usually fall back to insults, nicknames, disparaging remarks, or rarely glowing character commendations (usually reserved for barkeeps, but it did happen to a mechanic once).

BWR
2017-12-19, 03:39 AM
Same quote that kills me, different reasons.

As in, "I've said this characters name at least 5 times every week for 2 months, how the **** are you so inattentive?" reasons.


Tell me about it. Be it names of people, places, races, creatures - these are all constantly forgotten or badly mangled at my table. One player in particular is so bad I wonder if it's some form of learning deficiency. 5+ years in the game and he still says "Tytalus" instead of "Thyatis", just for starters.

Mordaedil
2017-12-19, 05:12 AM
If you don't want your players asking for experience, maybe playing without XP is a better solution for you? Have progress markers instead, so you give the players a mark for every solution they find and several ticks for solving a difficult encounter and if you run a 3.5 game and they want to do crafting, have them solve on how much one such tag is worth in experience and they can "lose" the tag for the experience to use as a resource on crafting, while you keep rewarding in tags and they can organize their own xp that they spend on crafting.

Figure out yourself how many markers they need to level, but keep it round and simple, so you don't suddenly go with 11 or so, and make sure it is consistent from level to level, but they become more valuable xp wise with each level this way.

As for obnoxious questions, "what dice do I roll for attack again?" is a common one, but it often means there's a fundamental problem and just telling them what dice to roll doesn't solve the problem. You need to take a step back and explain things better. Ask what it is that they don't understand about the rolling mechanic.

If your players struggle with your NPC names, that is fundamentally a problem that is on you. Maybe you made the name difficult to remember or too unique or maybe he simply blends together with other NPC's because he's not distinct enough. Maybe it is time to scale back your expectations a bit and steal names from sources your players are a bit more familiar with so that the names will stick a bit better.

For instance, I named an NPC advisor for the king in my campaign Lando, especially to make sure my players make note of him, but I also picked that name intentionally to build some expectations from the players. This is as much psychology as it is playing a game to have fun. The enemy spellcaster was a necromancer named "Lars". The name gave the players a good picture of what this guy was like. He was a mook, a smaller pawn in a larger picture and probably from rather humble roots and possibly in way over his head. It also made them underestimate him. But they didn't forget his name.

Learning names of imaginary people is actually really, really difficult and your players aren't suffering from some sort of learning disability from being unable to learn it. They just don't have a firm image of him as a distinct character. That is on you as a DM. It's not going to be helped and you might just need to admit defeat and pick an easier name. Being unable to distinguish "Tytalus" from "Thyatis" is a really easy mistake to make and isn't your players fault, sorry to say. You picked a bad name as a DM and you are too proud to admit fault.

Zombimode
2017-12-19, 06:52 AM
What are some questions your players or your GM seem to always ask that just drive you up a wall?

Mine's in the title. I can't stand when we finish an epic fight, the GM is trying to narrate, set a cinematic pace, or drop some plot development, only for one player to break the mood with "Do we level up yet?" Or something to that effect. It makes me want to respond with "Oh, shut it! Every time you ask I subtract 100 experience!"

I have an Excel list stored in my dropbox. After the session I will calculate the XP gains and update the list.
In Addition to shuting up all questions about XP gains, it makes leveling up mid-session impossible.

Leveling up mid-session is a hilariously bad idea anyway.

Also, you don't have to rely on your player's bookeeping abilities for experience totals.

Darth Tom
2017-12-19, 09:15 AM
I have to say that making players keep track of their XP and money is rather flawed. It sounds good as a way of making them take responsibility for their character and admin, but I've played too many games where everyone has been really confused how I ended up with so much more than everyone else, and never figured it out.

Knaight
2017-12-19, 02:04 PM
While there are some questions that irk me, I've mostly gotten past the point of making too much a big deal out of it, but "name of the random NPC" will always be one that makes me and other GMs I know pull their hair in frustration.

I can improvise NPC names pretty effortlessly - it's not an issue. What I can't name quickly and well are vehicles, and I run a lot of space opera.

RazorChain
2017-12-19, 07:39 PM
Ding-ding! We have this thread's winner. :smallbiggrin:

While there are some questions that irk me, I've mostly gotten past the point of making too much a big deal out of it, but "name of the random NPC" will always be one that makes me and other GMs I know pull their hair in frustration.

This just has to do with preparedness.

This link is your friend https://www.behindthename.com/

And I always bring my tablet/laptop hybrid to my games so if I can't find a name on the top of my head in 5 seconds flat then it takes me 1 second to click that tab and get me a name. It even has a random name feature, what more can we ask for?

Psikerlord
2017-12-19, 09:27 PM
Some players are more interested in the game side of RPGs, as opposed to the story/cinematic side. One of my main concerns as a player, when we used xp, we "how much xp do we get!?"

Tanarii
2017-12-20, 12:45 AM
Same quote that kills me, different reasons.

As in, "I've said this characters name at least 5 times every week for 2 months, how the **** are you so inattentive?" reasons.

I have a couple players that refuse to learn the names of NPCs or party members. I think I should start docking XP every time they ask that question.
I've learned this one the hard way: give important NpCs you want the players to remember simple and memorable names.

They'll never remember the mercs with them are named Grigory and Frederick. But they'll sure remember Hans and Franz. They won't remember Captain Wozerlaski, but they'll remember Captain Joe. They won't remember At'latchian the Scout, but they'll definitely remember Fred the Scout. (Edit: yes, I've had a player that couldn't remember Frederick but had no problem with Fred. :smallamused: )

Alternatively, just give in an use the nicknames they give to the NPCs anyway. "Fancy-coat dude" or "ponycy Noble" or "rat bastard little kid who won't shut up". Or job titles. My worlds are populated with "the barkeeper" and "the Captain of the Watch" and "that sneaky Vizier" and of course "the King". And usually "the quest giver dude" floats around somewhere, if he's not one of those guys I just mentioned.

Mordaedil
2017-12-20, 03:10 AM
Yeah, that is my experience as well Tanarii.

Heck, it's been to the point where I learned to intentionally do a thing on purpose with my elves, where they have a complicated elven name, but a short easy to remember "human name" that the players usually use to refer them by, while I put a bit extra pressure on the elven players if they don't try to have a bit of pride in remember the more complicated elven name.

For example my elven bard was named Elanthiil, but the humans could refer to him as merely "Elan". And yes that was on purpose.

Another elf player I had was named La'rithyr and humans would call him by "Larry". That was a fun one.

Pelle
2017-12-20, 09:18 AM
I have become a fan of using alliteration to make it easier to remember npc names. One of my most memorable npc in my current campaign is Kåre Kjetting, a not-dwarf wielding a spiked chain...

BWR
2017-12-20, 09:23 AM
I have become a fan of using alliteration to make it easier to remember npc names. One of my most memorable npc in my current campaign is Kåre Kjetting, a not-dwarf wielding a spiked chain...

Wouldn't Kjetil Kjetting be better? Now make him a heretic, just to really pile it on.

Pelle
2017-12-20, 10:27 AM
Sure, but then I couldn't steal the name from an old punk rock band...

Tanarii
2017-12-20, 01:43 PM
I have become a fan of using alliteration to make it easier to remember npc names. One of my most memorable npc in my current campaign is Kåre Kjetting, a not-dwarf wielding a spiked chain...
That's probably why Hans and Franz are currently the two most remembered Henchmen NPCs IMC currently.

Jay R
2017-12-20, 10:20 PM
My answer to "How much experience do we get?" is:

"I'll figure that out tomorrow and send it by email." If this is your usual habit, then they will eventually stop asking.

BWR
2017-12-20, 11:51 PM
That's probably why Hans and Franz are currently the two most remembered Henchmen NPCs IMC currently.

Except that's a rhyme, not alliteration...

denthor
2017-12-21, 10:29 AM
"What's my X bonus again/What die do I roll?"


I don't mind if your brand new to the system.

I do however mind if we've been running this campaign for three months and you STILL can't figure out that D20 is always the one you use for skill checks and saves, and were really basic function's of the character have you constantly asking this question of me. (Seriously, how many times do you have to roll an attack or a save to figure out how to roll the D20, add and give me a total!)


There is an easy way around this. Always take the slow progress charts. If the do not advance they have fewer questions as to abilities.

Tanarii
2017-12-21, 10:44 AM
Except that's a rhyme, not alliteration...
Darn you to heck! :smallbiggrin:

Good point.

Tinkerer
2017-12-21, 10:46 AM
If I'm getting asked a question far too frequently I view it as a sign that I need to take steps to avoid it. I can definitely see the "How much experience do we get" question because it is an indicator of how they are doing. That's why when I hand out experience for larger xp based systems (aka not Savage Worlds or WoD etc...) I use index cards, break it down by how they got the xp, and hand them out at the end of session. Never hand out xp mid session as it just slows things down.

If someone is having issues getting a handle on the system I ask them to either show up 5 minutes early or stay 5 minutes late and we make up a cheat sheet (well, usually a cheat index card) which lays things out simply for them.

For people forgetting names... yeah, I'm the worst one at the table for that so it doesn't really bother me. I once worked at a store with 5 people in it and it still took me almost two months to be able to remember their names. I just remind them that they should record the names in their campaign journal and move on.

Drache64
2017-12-21, 11:20 AM
I hate being interrupted when role playing an NPC that is about to answer the question that is being asked.

NPC with thick accent "I have a simple task for you... You will accomplish this task and I will--"
Player "hey really quick DM, can I ask him for equipment!?"
NPC: "--will provide equipment..."

It can be taxing to provide an engaging NPC experience and frivolous interruptions out of character bug the heck out of me. Though I don't mind if they interrupt in character.

I also hate when one player derails or interrupts the current encounter because he has a random question about his character that if out of character and completely unrelated to what we're currently doing. I swear next time a lightning bolt will randomly strike that character.

Tanarii
2017-12-21, 11:57 AM
If players are talking over an NPC or each other when interacting with one, the NPC should react appropriately. And checks involved should be modified appropriately.

It also indicates that NPC monologues are so long it bores them (most DMs), that they had too much caffeine (usually me), or that they are a bunch of teens.

Nothing against DMing for a bunch of teens, it just requires fitting the DMing style to the players. :smallamused:

Drache64
2017-12-21, 12:21 PM
If players are talking over an NPC or each other when interacting with one, the NPC should react appropriately. And checks involved should be modified appropriately.

It also indicates that NPC monologues are so long it bores them (most DMs), that they had too much caffeine (usually me), or that they are a bunch of teens.

Nothing against DMing for a bunch of teens, it just requires fitting the DMing style to the players. :smallamused:

In my case they are teens on caffeine. It's mostly one very hyper player, the rest aren't bad.

Malimar
2017-12-21, 01:10 PM
This is 3X specific, but I'm going to plug my experience houserule anyway. There are no XP, basically. You level up after 10 Average Difficulty Encounters. Hard encounters count double, easy encounters give you half. (This is faster than the WOTC-suggested 13 1/3, but makes the accounting easier).

So at most, the player is asking if this encounter was Easy, Average or Hard.
I used to do this, except I used 14 encounters instead of 10 -- 14 is the DMG-recommended 13.33 except rounded up to a number that more readily divides in two, which I used in part because I would generally plan 7 encounters in advance, which is about the maximum we'd get through in a session.

Anyhow, it always felt like I had the characters leveling up too fast under this system. I could have just bumped the number of encounters per level up to 20 or something, but it just feels wrong, so for a new campaign I'm starting next week I'm switching back to XP. (Another benefit of the 3.5e-style XP system is that it is a river and therefore if you miss a session you'll fall behind but then you'll catch up.) It occurred to me that, since I keep track of XP and levels in my Excel Document Of Doomtm anyway, I could just not tell them how much XP they earn and just tell them when they level up, making it effectively the same as the above system from the player side of the table. But I figure letting them track it too will be a little more satisfying to them.

But yes, only giving out XP at the very end of the session, or even afterwards and sending the total out over e-communication, (and making it clear to your players that this is what you're doing) is the best policy.


There is an easy way around this. Always take the slow progress charts. If the do not advance they have fewer questions as to abilities.
You would hope and think so, but it ain't necessarily so.

Even for things that change every time you level up, it's always still in the same place on the character sheet, so one is justified in being irritated at players who ask "Where is that?" whenever they're called upon to roll a save. (Indeed, the more often you level up, the more often they have to update that number, so it should make them more capable of finding it.)

Xervous
2017-12-21, 01:33 PM
"what's the npc's name?"


"Well he said just a minute ago his name is..."

-"HOLD UP, he's got orange cloth twined in his beard. He's Licorice Beard and that's that."

Tanarii
2017-12-21, 04:01 PM
In my case they are teens on caffeine. It's mostly one very hyper player, the rest aren't bad.
Oh lord. Luckily for me, and sometimes unfortunately for my calmer players, I'm the one usually on 2 cups of coffee. I can even keep up with teens on Monsters if I try really hard.

BWR
2017-12-21, 04:19 PM
Somehow managed to miss this post, and I feel it probably deserved to stay missed.


If you don't want your players asking for experience, maybe playing without XP is a better solution for you? Have progress markers instead, so you give the players a mark for every solution they find and several ticks for solving a difficult encounter and if you run a 3.5 game and they want to do crafting, have them solve on how much one such tag is worth in experience and they can "lose" the tag for the experience to use as a resource on crafting, while you keep rewarding in tags and they can organize their own xp that they spend on crafting.

Figure out yourself how many markers they need to level, but keep it round and simple, so you don't suddenly go with 11 or so, and make sure it is consistent from level to level, but they become more valuable xp wise with each level this way..

So XP, only more complicated?
I fail to see the point.



As for obnoxious questions, "what dice do I roll for attack again?" is a common one, but it often means there's a fundamental problem and just telling them what dice to roll doesn't solve the problem. You need to take a step back and explain things better. Ask what it is that they don't understand about the rolling mechanic.

Possibly, possibly. Possibly also that they simply don't bother to learn even if they are perfectly capable of doing so, as evidenced by other elements they've mastered in the games. Depends on the person.



If your players struggle with your NPC names, that is fundamentally a problem that is on you. Maybe you made the name difficult to remember or too unique or maybe he simply blends together with other NPC's because he's not distinct enough. Maybe it is time to scale back your expectations a bit and steal names from sources your players are a bit more familiar with so that the names will stick a bit better. Learning names of imaginary people is actually really, really difficult and your players aren't suffering from some sort of learning disability from being unable to learn it.



Ehhhhh, no,
There is a limit to how many Bobs and Joes (or whatever equivalents) you can have in a game. Also, the setting is important. You won't see any Bobs in Rokugan, for instance. Suck it up and learn the names. Humans in general are very good at learning and remembering names. A little practice is all that's needed to pick up on foreign names.



. The enemy spellcaster was a necromancer named "Lars". The name gave the players a good picture of what this guy was like. He was a mook, a smaller pawn in a larger picture and probably from rather humble roots and possibly in way over his head..

Huh?
How does the name 'Lars' in any way give that image?



They just don't have a firm image of him as a distinct character. That is on you as a DM. It's not going to be helped and you might just need to admit defeat and pick an easier name. Being unable to distinguish "Tytalus" from "Thyatis" is a really easy mistake to make and isn't your players fault, sorry to say. You picked a bad name as a DM and you are too proud to admit fault.

I didn't choose those names. Tytalus is the name of one of the Houses in the Order of Hermes in Ars Magica, his second favorite House, Thyatis is one of the two major empires in Mystara, arch rival of the player's favorite empire. That's not me inventing names that are too similar, chum. That's him mixing **** up. This sort of stuff happens all the time. The guy has a trouble even remembering his primary character's full name. Don't insult me for his problems. Now, have any more wrong assumptions that need correcting?

Pelle
2017-12-21, 04:42 PM
Huh?
How does the name 'Lars' in any way give that image?


I guess because it's a common name IRL, like Joe and Bob in English.



I didn't choose those names. Tytalus is the name of one of the Houses in the Order of Hermes in Ars Magica, his second favorite House, Thyatis is one of the two major empires in Mystara, arch rival of the player's favorite empire. That's not me inventing names that are too similar, chum. That's him mixing **** up. This sort of stuff happens all the time. The guy has a trouble even remembering his primary character's full name. Don't insult me for his problems. Now, have any more wrong assumptions that need correcting?

If it's the player that made the names, he should be able to remember it. But if not familiar with the setting, those names seem horrible to remember, that was my first reaction as well.

BWR
2017-12-21, 05:18 PM
I guess because it's a common name IRL, like Joe and Bob in English.


I know. I live in such a country. I'm wondering how it makes people think of a scrawny nobody.

halfeye
2017-12-21, 05:23 PM
Humans in general are very good at learning and remembering names.

This is mistaken. Some are very good, a significant minority are relatively poor.

BWR
2017-12-21, 05:26 PM
This is mistaken. Some are very good, a significant minority are relatively poor.

I said 'in general', not 'all'.

Faily
2017-12-21, 05:50 PM
If it's the player that made the names, he should be able to remember it. But if not familiar with the setting, those names seem horrible to remember, that was my first reaction as well.

Well, Tytalus is his second (but possible his first) favourite House in Ars Magica, and he knows that setting better than most of us in the playgroup. Thyatis, being the arch-enemy of his favourite faction of Alphatia, is also part of one of his favourite settings which is Mystara. He was the only one who was also very familiar with Mystara among the players (BWR, as our GM, knew the setting well too), and knew about the two rivalling Empires before we started that weekly campaign years ago.


I mostly just suspect he is among those few people who have difficulties learning new names, and remembering certain things. He repeatedly made a wreck of my character's name in a previous Ars Magica campaign over the course of a few years too. Mechanics he remembers decently and learns decently too... given they align with what he is imagening in his head. :smalltongue:

PhoenixPhyre
2017-12-21, 06:16 PM
On the topic of names, I'm one of those people with strong difficulties remembering names. And I'm the DM. I tend to think in titles or short descriptions.

Once I had the players give a nickname for someone that worked well enough that I could remember it. There was this arrogant zealot of a paladin (in the classic mode). She happened to be an Aasimar, with glowing hair. One particularly flippant character called her "sparkles" to tick her off. It worked. And when her superior officer found out, she made it semi official. Although anyone but the boss or the character calling her that is legally recognized as a form of suicide. I don't think I even gave her a real name until later. She was just "that a** of a paladin" in my mental notes.

Pelle
2017-12-21, 07:04 PM
I know. I live in such a country. I'm wondering how it makes people think of a scrawny nobody.

Well you know, it's like people associate Ronny with roguish types, Kjell Bjarne with less smart people, and Lars with regular everyday normal guys, not BBEGs.


Well, Tytalus is his second (but possible his first) favourite House in Ars Magica, and he knows that setting better than most of us in the playgroup. Thyatis, being the arch-enemy of his favourite faction of Alphatia, is also part of one of his favourite settings which is Mystara. He was the only one who was also very familiar with Mystara among the players (BWR, as our GM, knew the setting well too), and knew about the two rivalling Empires before we started that weekly campaign years ago.

That's cool, but it was not clear from the first post on that topic. I don't think it's controversial to assume as a default that the GM creates the names of npcs unless specified otherwise.

halfeye
2017-12-21, 07:06 PM
I said 'in general', not 'all'.

In general implies on average, and those of us with poor memories for names are numerous enough to take the average well below "very good".

Tanarii
2017-12-21, 07:08 PM
Different people remember names differently. But most common are by seeing it written down a lot or by saying it a lot.

I know as I learn names best by seeing them written down. In fact, as a player I always keep notes of names of places & people, as well as reminders of things done, and review them periodically.

But when it comes to RPGs, I think the biggest problem is the GM is usually the one saying it, and in addition there's no actual person / creature they're seeing associated with it. I bet if you had a memorable picture for important NPCs, players would remember the names better.

Or at least remember the NPC at all better. "Who is this guy again?" is also an annoying question. But kinda funny when done in-character to a recurring character. "Who are you again?" is a nice way to insult a wanna-be-recurring villain. :smallamused:

Potato_Priest
2017-12-21, 07:41 PM
On names: I also get caught by this one fairly often, and I usually end up giving out something stupid, with only occasionally the presence of mind to spit out a pun like Woody Sawyer the woodsman or Mr. Meanor the thug.

PhoenixPhyre
2017-12-21, 07:45 PM
On names: I also get caught by this one fairly often, and I usually end up giving out something stupid, with only occasionally the presence of mind to spit out a pun like Woody Sawyer the woodsman or Mr. Meanor the thug.

I named a couple factions based on literal translations of their theme colors--

the faction with black flags were Kuro
the faction with white flags were Shiro
and the faction with blue armbands (and glowy blue incarnate-esque armor) were Ao.

All stolen liberated from Japanese. That way I could remember them.

And their bosses were named appropriately--the twin angel/devil hybrid bosses of Kuro were Lilitu and Lilu (demons from Sumerian myth).

My gnome lich was named L. For "lich." Nice guy, for a gnome.

Mordaedil
2017-12-22, 03:11 AM
Somehow managed to miss this post, and I feel it probably deserved to stay missed.
Wow, rude.


So XP, only more complicated?
I fail to see the point.

It's.. Really not more complicated. It's generally easier for people to understand a progress of 1/10th progression than x by experience.


Possibly, possibly. Possibly also that they simply don't bother to learn even if they are perfectly capable of doing so, as evidenced by other elements they've mastered in the games. Depends on the person.
This kind of attitude is also why people leave the game and never look back though.



Ehhhhh, no,
There is a limit to how many Bobs and Joes (or whatever equivalents) you can have in a game. Also, the setting is important. You won't see any Bobs in Rokugan, for instance. Suck it up and learn the names. Humans in general are very good at learning and remembering names. A little practice is all that's needed to pick up on foreign names.
I didn't say to not use regional names, but it pays to keep them simple, because people are only good at remembering names because they can associate memories with faces, smells and other senses that interacted with that other person. In a game where you might not have more than the DM's words, which might not be sufficient at giving a sufficient impression in the brief time you interact with them, you are less likely to remember their name. That said, for a region like Rokugan, I'd still run Matsuke, Natsuki, Yuki, Yoshi and similar names for NPC's.

Also jesus, drop that attitude, what is wrong with you?


Huh?
How does the name 'Lars' in any way give that image?
Others already brought this up, but Lars is a way too common name to give to someone you'd want to stick out as an important NPC.



I didn't choose those names. Tytalus is the name of one of the Houses in the Order of Hermes in Ars Magica, his second favorite House, Thyatis is one of the two major empires in Mystara, arch rival of the player's favorite empire. That's not me inventing names that are too similar, chum. That's him mixing **** up. This sort of stuff happens all the time. The guy has a trouble even remembering his primary character's full name. Don't insult me for his problems. Now, have any more wrong assumptions that need correcting?
Well, I can't help you with setting details you have no control over, but uh, it's still kind of on you as a DM if the players struggle with character names. I'm sorry if you feel that's me insulting you, I'm merely pointing out the core of the problem.

But don't worry, sometimes this isn't something that can be helped, so you don't have to take it that much to heart if you feel it somehow is a failing of yours or not. We're only human and we can't help everybody overcome their hurdles.

I mean, I could say "they need a different DM", but that doesn't help you either, does it?

dps
2017-12-22, 08:09 PM
Well you know, it's like people associate Ronny with roguish types, Kjell Bjarne with less smart people, and Lars with regular everyday normal guys, not BBEGs.


If I hear the name "Ronny" I associate it with either Ronald Reagan or Ronnie Spector; the name "Lars" makes me think of someone with a Swedish accent, with no other assumptions about them, and the other one is meaningless to me.

And count me among those who are bad with names. Heck, I've played in games where I didn't even know the names of the other players.

BWR
2017-12-23, 02:10 AM
It's.. Really not more complicated. It's generally easier for people to understand a progress of 1/10th progression than x by experience.


XP: You need X amount to get to Y level.
Progression markers: You need X amount to get to Y level.
All you are changing is the numbers involved and calling it 'progression markers' instead of 'xp'. Oh, and adding a bit about giving them xp to use for crafting. Why not just stick with xp, a system that is already in place, requires less work and is exactly as easy to understand as long as you can count upwards?


This kind of attitude is also why people leave the game and never look back though.


Acknowledging that sometimes people are responsible for their own problems?



I didn't say to not use regional names, but it pays to keep them simple, because people are only good at remembering names because they can associate memories with faces, smells and other senses that interacted with that other person. In a game where you might not have more than the DM's words, which might not be sufficient at giving a sufficient impression in the brief time you interact with them, you are less likely to remember their name. That said, for a region like Rokugan, I'd still run Matsuke, Natsuki, Yuki, Yoshi and similar names for NPC's.


Simple names, huh. You're aware that your example names are pretty much as difficult to remember as any other, right? Getting one's head around foreign languages can be difficult and everything tends to sound the same when you aren't familiar with it.



Also jesus, drop that attitude, what is wrong with you?


I hate ignorance and people insulting me.


Well, I can't help you with setting details you have no control over, but uh, it's still kind of on you as a DM if the players struggle with character names. I'm sorry if you feel that's me insulting you, I'm merely pointing out the core of the problem.


How is this on me? How in any way can it be on me that he has trouble distinguishing between names of things I didn't create, which don't exist in the same games, which he has known about for more than 20 years, which we constantly correct him on? How is it my fault he still messes up other PC names when we've been playing this game weekly for six years? It took me literally years to correct his pronunciation of 'ghoul' and 'idea'. This isn't my fault. This isn't on me, this isn't me being a bad GM, so stop trying to claim it is.


But don't worry, sometimes this isn't something that can be helped, so you don't have to take it that much to heart if you feel it somehow is a failing of yours or not. We're only human and we can't help everybody overcome their hurdles.


The hell are you talking about? I'm not the one trying to pin this on me. That's you. Overcoming hurdles? Workaround: players give people epithets that are easy to remember, or refer to them by titles/jobs. Done. This is how we do things all the time, because frankly, remembering every single NPC name ever - especially if they show up only once or twice - is pointless. What I was complaining about was a guy who can't seem to remember any NPC names ever, who literally mixes up things he has known for decades and sometimes can't even get other PC names right, PCs that we've been playing for years. It's annoying. It's really annoying. It's not game- or group- breakingly annoying.


I mean, I could say "they need a different DM", but that doesn't help you either, does it?

So you said you were sorry I felt you were trying to insult me, and then this. Not very sorry, I guess. And you wonder why I get upset with you.
Again, baseless and incorrect assumptions and I detect a feeling of unwarranted smug superiority. We've been playing together for 15 years or so at this point, and apparently I'm doing something right because work and health permitting, he still shows up every week and we have fun.

Pelle
2017-12-23, 02:28 PM
If I hear the name "Ronny" I associate it with either Ronald Reagan or Ronnie Spector; the name "Lars" makes me think of someone with a Swedish accent, with no other assumptions about them, and the other one is meaningless to me.

That's strange. One would maybe think that you come from a different country...

dps
2017-12-23, 05:41 PM
That's strange. One would maybe think that you come from a different country...

Or maybe a different generation.

Knaight
2017-12-23, 06:56 PM
XP: You need X amount to get to Y level.
Progression markers: You need X amount to get to Y level.
All you are changing is the numbers involved and calling it 'progression markers' instead of 'xp'. Oh, and adding a bit about giving them xp to use for crafting. Why not just stick with xp, a system that is already in place, requires less work and is exactly as easy to understand as long as you can count upwards?

"Changing the numbers involved" is a great term for glossing over pretty dramatic differences in ease of use. Speaking as someone who works with scientific equations a lot - changing the numbers involved is literally the only difference between working in metric and working with the American system; working in metric is vastly easier.

This is a similar case. A handful of one digit numbers which occasionally breaks into two digits (but only for totals) is easier to handle than routinely doing math on five and six digit numbers, particularly if you're doing it all in your head.