Your New Car

[Arlanthe]

(Kudos to Caelic on the Wizards Thread)


"We're going to be releasing a new model of car. We will no longer be providing any service whatsoever for your model. If something is broken, don't bother us about it, because it's not our problem; if you want a car that isn't broken, you should have waited until we released this year's model.

Now: the new car is going to have all different controls than the old ones. That means you'll have to learn to drive all over again. It also means that, once people get used to the new controls, you're going to have a harder and harder time finding people willing to drive your old model, or even ride in it.

The new model will have exciting new roads to drive on, but they'll all be toll roads, and you'll have to pay a monthly fee to use them. If you choose not to use the toll roads, that's your choice, but be advised that we'll be spending most of our time and effort on upgrading and maintaining those roads, so we probably won't have much time for those of you who aren't using them.

And, yes, it's true that we sold you an expensive new part for your car just last month, and have been steadily urging you to upgrade it for months now. Yes, it's true that we knew we were going to release the new model and told you it was still a long way off and that you should keep upgrading your car. But, hey! We did all of that because we wanted it to be a surprise. You like surprises, don't you?

Now: with all that being said, have fun driving your old rust-bucket along pothole laden roads. Those of us who are enlightened and know that "new" is always "better" will shake our heads sympathetically at you while we whiz along in our new cars.

Where will we be going? Why, to the dealership, of course. I hear that they're already planning ANOTHER new car that will make THIS one obsolete, and I want to be first in line to sign up for it!"

[Morty]

I can't see any mention of bands of armed thugs forcing you to buy this new car. Nor do I see anything that forced you to use that old car.

[Fax Celestis]

Hell, people (here's looking at you, Matthew) still play 2e, and it hasn't been current for 8 years now.

[ALOR]

I can't see any mention of bands of armed thugs forcing you to buy this new car. Nor do I see anything that forced you to use that old car.

i don't think the OP suggested that their are armed thugs forcing you to buy anything.

[Morty]

i don't think the OP suggested that their are armed thugs forcing you to buy anything.

Then what's the problem? If the OP finds Wizard's policy disgusting -something I don't really undersand- there's nothing that forces him to buy this "new car", and there were nothing that forced him to use "old car" either.

[kamikasei]

I call shenanigans.


"We're going to be releasing a new model of car. We will no longer be providing any service whatsoever for your model. If something is broken, don't bother us about it, because it's not our problem; if you want a car that isn't broken, you should have waited until we released this year's model.

RPGs don't wear down over time. If something doesn't work as you'd like it's that way from the time you started playing. Modifying it is zero-cost. Therefore "no service" is much less of an issue for a game than for a car.


Now: the new car is going to have all different controls than the old ones. That means you'll have to learn to drive all over again. It also means that, once people get used to the new controls, you're going to have a harder and harder time finding people willing to drive your old model, or even ride in it.

Cars from different manufacturers already have all different controls from one another, if they're like RPGs.

[Arlanthe]

I can't see any mention of bands of armed thugs forcing you to buy this new car. Nor do I see anything that forced you to use that old car.


Did I say that? It is a parody.

This is the third edition release this decade. Do we really need three releases per decade?

"Upgrading", "modernizing"? People, this is D&D- it runs on the technology of pencils, paper, and dice. It's not like a graphics card or digital camera that needs periodic updating, it is a pen and paper game.

[Morty]

Did I say that? It is a parody.

So was what I've said.


This is the third edition release this decade. Do we really need three releases per decade?

Maybe, maybe not. Some people need it, some prefer to stick with old ones. So they don't buy new ones.


"Upgrading", "modernizing"? People, this is D&D- it runs on the technology of pencils, paper, and dice. It's not like a graphics card or digital camera that needs periodic updating, it is a pen and paper game.

Pen and paper game that could use some changes in the rules.

[ALOR]

"Upgrading", "modernizing"? People, this is D&D- it runs on the technology of pencils, paper, and dice. It's not like a graphics card or digital camera that needs periodic updating, it is a pen and paper game.

QFT
very well said

[rollfrenzy]

Some things about your old car...

It's free to fix.

The roads it drives on are free to build and maintain.

Theres nothing that has changed about it, that makes it any different than it was last week.

If you like your old car, theres no need whatsoever to buy a new one.

It had it's quirks that some people were very vocal about disliking, those people are happy to get a new car.

It ran pretty well, was comfortable and fun to drive, a lot of people are happy with the old car and are free to keep driving it forever.

[AKA_Bait]

This is the third edition release this decade. Do we really need three releases per decade?

Um, you are aware that Wizards of the Coast purchased TSR right? I've been paying attention to WotC as a company since the very beginnings of Magic the Gathering and Jihad. They are a sucessful company because they put out flashy new stuff, be they entire systems, add-on's for systems, new series in the case of the ccg's they own, all the friggin time. I stopped playing Magic, around eight or ten years ago at this point, because of it.

Fortunatley, unlike in some of their games, the ccg's in particular, D&D is not a competitive game. You don't need to have the new stuff to play it and 'win' since winning is just having fun.

Do they want you to buy the new one? Of course, it's advertising. Are they going to try to make it look like 3x is a Ford Pinto? Of course, it's advertising. I really cannot comprehend why people are upset or surprised. WotC is a corporation and a very smart one at that. This is their business model. Enjoy one of the cars or get off the road.

[DrummingDM]

(Kudos to Caelic on the Wizards Thread)
Now: with all that being said, have fun driving your old rust-bucket along pothole laden roads. Those of us who are enlightened and know that "new" is always "better" will shake our heads sympathetically at you while we whiz along in our new cars.What's that? 3.5 Edition? Do we really need to add a .5 to what we just got? What's wrong with plain old 3?

(Heck - Third Edition? What folly is this? I'll stick with my AD&D 2nd Edition, thank-you-very-much.

(Double-Heck - 2nd Edition? Wha- in-the-Nine Hells is wrong with regular old Advanced Dungeons and Dragons?)

(Ohhhh, Triple-heck - Who needs this "Advanced" crap! I can just play Basic Dungeons and Dragons!)

Point being? Get over it. New editions have come out before, and people have functioned perfectly well adopting the new rules, or sticking with what they know. To my knowledge, no one has been forced at gun-point to upgrade their game, or have suffered any ill effects from failing to do so.

[rollfrenzy]

New editions have come out before, and people have functioned perfectly well adopting the new rules, or sticking with what they know. To my knowledge, no one has been forced at gun-point to upgrade their game, or have suffered any ill effects from failing to do so.

QFT (emphasis mine)

I do not understand the "MY BOOKS ARE RUINED" argument. So what if WoTC comes out with a new edition every ten minutes, find the one you like and play it. Believe me the graphics are gonna be the same, no matter how many editions come out.

[Matthew]

Hell, people (here's looking at you, Matthew) still play 2e, and it hasn't been current for 8 years now.

Heh, it's eight years out of print and I still haven't even come close to having read everything that was published during it's eleven year reign. Hell, I haven't even read all the stuff I downloaded off Wizards Old Edition Download Page. Even just playing through all the 1e Adventure Modules is liable to take years of a person's life (and I'm game to do it).

I still haven't played a Complete Warrior Samurai, and I definitely want to try that.

[Tyger]

Point being? Get over it. New editions have come out before, and people have functioned perfectly well adopting the new rules, or sticking with what they know. To my knowledge, no one has been forced at gun-point to upgrade their game, or have suffered any ill effects from failing to do so.

I was taken captive and held in a secure, secret underground location stocked only with Cheetos and Mountain Dew for 16 weeks. Throughout the period of my incarceration, I was not permitted contact with the outside world, nor was I permitted to get up from my chair for anything other than basic hygene reasons.

During this whole period, I had an electronic collar attached to my neck that gave me high voltage shocks whenever I suggested that classes should level up at different XP points, or if I referred to the Dwarf as a class. I was beaten with a phonebook for 15 minutes after trying to explain that THACO was a perfectly decent system.

After a period of sleep deprivation and intense gaming involving something called a Warblade, I was permitted to leave the compound. When I arrived home, I found that my bookshelves had been emptied of their previous contents and now contained 3.5 editions of the D&D game.

I have never recovered.

[SageinaRage]

"We're going to be releasing a new model of car. We will no longer be providing any service whatsoever for your model. If something is broken, don't bother us about it, because it's not our problem; if you want a car that isn't broken, you should have waited until we released this year's model.

Your old car will never break, and will continue to function on into the future. And, even if something happens to your specific car, the other cars sold of that same model will drop in price drastically.


Now: the new car is going to have all different controls than the old ones. That means you'll have to learn to drive all over again. It also means that, once people get used to the new controls, you're going to have a harder and harder time finding people willing to drive your old model, or even ride in it.

The old car was a manual, the new car is an automatic, with a/c and a cd player. I'm sorry they couldn't go back in time to invent things before you had a chance to buy them.


The new model will have exciting new roads to drive on, but they'll all be toll roads, and you'll have to pay a monthly fee to use them. If you choose not to use the toll roads, that's your choice, but be advised that we'll be spending most of our time and effort on upgrading and maintaining those roads, so we probably won't have much time for those of you who aren't using them.

The old roads still work fine, paving your own roads is entirely possible, they're still going to make more regular roads, and the toll roads aren't really toll 'roads' as they are toll 'teleporters' which let you drive across the country in a matter of seconds. (kind of stretching the metaphor there, but whatever.)


And, yes, it's true that we sold you an expensive new part for your car just last month, and have been steadily urging you to upgrade it for months now. Yes, it's true that we knew we were going to release the new model and told you it was still a long way off and that you should keep upgrading your car. But, hey! We did all of that because we wanted it to be a surprise. You like surprises, don't you?

Because advances in design and technology should be kept secret for as long as possible, so that people don't feel bad about not having it.


Now: with all that being said, have fun driving your old rust-bucket along pothole laden roads. Those of us who are enlightened and know that "new" is always "better" will shake our heads sympathetically at you while we whiz along in our new cars.

If the car is a rust bucket, on terrible roads, why did you buy it?


Where will we be going? Why, to the dealership, of course. I hear that they're already planning ANOTHER new car that will make THIS one obsolete, and I want to be first in line to sign up for it!"

It's a much better idea to just close the company, we have a car now, and will never need another.

[Matthew]

A frickin' Automatic?! Hide your head in shame.

[estradling]

Point being? Get over it. New editions have come out before, and people have functioned perfectly well adopting the new rules, or sticking with what they know. To my knowledge, no one has been forced at gun-point to upgrade their game, or have suffered any ill effects from failing to do so.


Depends on your definition of 'any' and 'ill effects'. I know a few people that really... really... really... want to play 2nd ed, and they will even DM the game, but, guess what? They can't really find enough players. So they can't really play. I'd call that an ill effect. Their books remain intact with an added layer of dust from having no reason to be used. Yes I know there are still groups playing 2nd ed out there... But, really, honestly take a good hard look at the games bing offered in the Recruiting players area how many 2nd ed games to do see?

If Wizards does a half-way decent job with the 4th ed you can expect the same thing to happen to 3.5. Games will dry up. Books will remain on the shelves and those with a lot of money invested in 3.5 will either have to find a small group of die-hard 3.5 fans or watch as all the players migrate away from them.

While not a group of armed book-burning thugs type of ill effects the end result is almost the same. You either convert or you don't play

[Fax Celestis]

I was taken captive and held in a secure, secret underground location stocked only with Cheetos and Mountain Dew for 16 weeks. Throughout the period of my incarceration, I was not permitted contact with the outside world, nor was I permitted to get up from my chair for anything other than basic hygene reasons.

During this whole period, I had an electronic collar attached to my neck that gave me high voltage shocks whenever I suggested that classes should level up at different XP points, or if I referred to the Dwarf as a class. I was beaten with a phonebook for 15 minutes after trying to explain that THACO was a perfectly decent system.

After a period of sleep deprivation and intense gaming involving something called a Warblade, I was permitted to leave the compound. When I arrived home, I found that my bookshelves had been emptied of their previous contents and now contained 3.5 editions of the D&D game.

I have never recovered.

Man, at least you got the phonebook. When I tried to explain that I actually liked Non-Weapon Proficiencies, they dipped me in Tabasco. That stuff got in my eyes. Man, that burns.

[AKA_Bait]

A frickin' Automatic?! Hide your head in shame.

QFT

What?

[tainsouvra]

I thought it was funny. It's just parody, I don't think it should be taken this seriously.

Also, nyah :smalltongue:

[YPU]

Exactly, there is more then a life time of 3.5 stuff. So, considering people have been arguing about the unbalanced nature of 3.5, is it all that strange that they will start all over. They have build a complete system, there are literally millions of options, do you really want more, I don’t think you would really like it anyway. So why should wizards not start a new edition. The only reasons would be that people would rather have a more balanced version of 3.5 and I am quite sure that is what 4e is all about.

[DrummingDM]

You either convert or you don't playThat's not ill effects. That's called "Darwinism." If you desire to play a system that is old, out-of-date, and clunky, you may. However, most everyone else has moved past you and is using a new system.

Is anyone out there really going to argue that a clarified, better-structured, easier-to-learn system of rules is a bad thing? Don't we WANT to increase the player-base? Don't we want to know that in 20-30 years our children will still be playing D&D, can still buy current materials, and that our hobby won't fall by the wayside?

I understood THAC0 just fine, but when I took the time to finally check out 3rd/3.5 I immediately saw that BAB was a much better, and simplified system for resolving combat results.

How many people do you think were baffled by THAC0 (I know many) who could easily grasp the concept of BAB? Simplification and modernization creates new players. I'm sorry if your out-dated game system suffers from a lack of players as a result. If the new system isn't as good as 3.5, you'll see plenty of the 3.5 "grognards" return to it. That's evolution, and marketplace economics.

[Telonius]

Mass transit is the way to go. Yay for free riders! :smallbiggrin:

[AKA_Bait]

The only reasons would be that people would rather have a more balanced version of 3.5 and I am quite sure that is what 4e is all about.

Well, that and WotC will make a bundle of money if the system is even decent. Which, of course, I have absolutley no problem with.

[estradling]

That's not ill effects. That's called "Darwinism." If you desire to play a system that is old, out-of-date, and clunky, you may. However, most everyone else has moved past you and is using a new system.

Yeah it is... But just ask the dinosaurs if they consider "Darwinism" an ill effect...

Oh wait... you can't... because they are dead... :) It might just be me but I'd call that an 'ill effect' :)

On another note the die-hard 2nd ed guy is laughing his head off right now. He is seeing the die-hard 3.5 ed guys have to deal with the exact crap that he went through.

[Fax Celestis]

Yeah it is... But just ask the dinosaurs if they consider "Darwinism" an ill effect...

Oh wait... you can't... because they are dead... :) It might just be me but I'd call that an 'ill effect' :)

On another note the die-hard 2nd ed guy is laughing his head off right now. He is seeing the die-hard 3.5 ed guys have to deal with the exact crap that he went through.

Why is that a bad thing? Evolution happens, regardless of format.

[estradling]

Why is that a bad thing? Evolution happens, regardless of format.

I'd didn't say it was bad. However saying it doesn't have ill-effects it not completely honest. Everytime things evolve there will be things (Or people in this case) stuck in the dead end path. Those small numbers who are left behind when things evolve around them experience ill-effects from it

[JadedDM]

On another note the die-hard 2nd ed guy is laughing his head off right now. He is seeing the die-hard 3.5 ed guys have to deal with the exact crap that he went through.

Yes. Yes, I am.

Oddly enough, though, I'm not laughing at the die-hard 3.5E guys, like I thought I would. I'm laughing at the die-hard 4E guys, who have all ready decided that 3E is terribly broken and poorly-made (I've been saying that for years, but as recently as a month ago, those same people who slam 3E today defended it with vigor) and that 4E, a system they know next to nothing about, is better in every way.

To all you 3E'ers who are feeling annoyed and frustrated, take heart. In five years or so, all those 4E'ers who are snubbing you and ridiculing your beloved system will get their comeuppance. They will rue this day. Rue it so hard. :smalltongue:

[bosssmiley]

First-off: OP, loved the post. Don't agree entirely with the sentiments expressed, but I can see some of the logic of it, and the imagery is telling.

As for the whole "3.5 is obsolete" thing. Yes, true, now that 4th Ed. is coming there will be no more WOTC support for 3.5, but there's still a big Intertube full of homebrew, 3rd party and WOTC free stuff out there that those of us who made the 1st-2nd, or 2nd-3rd Ed jumps would have killed for back in the day. You've also got an easy way of getting in touch with other luddite holdouts previous edition fans who - like you - don't want to join the Brave New World just yet thanks. :smallcool:

As for your old edition books now being 'useless'. What tosh! I *still* get mileage out of old OD&D/AD&D stuff that some of my current players never even knew existed. It's retro and old hat to me, but things like Hollow World, Birthright and Planescape are as shiny and new as the latest WOTC splatbook to them. It's the beneficial converse of the "What's new to you might not be new"/"ZOMG GW ripped of WoW!!1!" fallacy. :smallwink:

Retro-fitting, adaptation, literary, filmic and ludic grave-robbing. All grist to the gamer's mill. Change comes (unless you're a "Tekumel" fan :smalltongue: ), use it to your advantage.

"Love the game, use or discard (as you prefer) the proffered system."

Eggy, die-hard D&D fan ("Of which edition? What you got?")

[tainsouvra]

Oddly enough, though, I'm not laughing at the die-hard 3.5E guys, like I thought I would. I'm laughing at the die-hard 4E guys, who have all ready decided that 3E is terribly broken and poorly-made (I've been saying that for years, but as recently as a month ago, those same people who slam 3E today defended it with vigor) and that 4E, a system they know next to nothing about, is better in every way. It's really hilarious, isn't it? The best part is that, because their justification was (on some level) that newer is better, they'll never realize how much they contradict themselves. :smallsmile:

[Fax Celestis]

Yes. Yes, I am.

Oddly enough, though, I'm not laughing at the die-hard 3.5E guys, like I thought I would. I'm laughing at the die-hard 4E guys, who have all ready decided that 3E is terribly broken and poorly-made (I've been saying that for years, but as recently as a month ago, those same people who slam 3E today defended it with vigor) and that 4E, a system they know next to nothing about, is better in every way.

To all you 3E'ers who are feeling annoyed and frustrated, take heart. In five years or so, all those 4E'ers who are snubbing you and ridiculing your beloved system will get their comeuppance. They will rue this day. Rue it so hard. :smalltongue:

Not saying it's better, just saying that it has the potential to be.

[Tiki Snakes]

Yeah, speaking of, I'm soon to start a new Dark-Sun campaign. Never played 2nd edition in my life, and I can see the ways 3rd and above are far better, but frankly, the setting is really, really cool.

Worth wrestling with 2nd edition for. And, well, from my point of view? 2nd edition's rules are as mad as a box of frogs.

[Matthew]

Well, there is a 3e conversion of Dark Sun up on Athas.org, you might want to try that if you have trouble with 2e.

[hamlet]

Yes. Yes, I am.

Oddly enough, though, I'm not laughing at the die-hard 3.5E guys, like I thought I would. I'm laughing at the die-hard 4E guys, who have all ready decided that 3E is terribly broken and poorly-made (I've been saying that for years, but as recently as a month ago, those same people who slam 3E today defended it with vigor) and that 4E, a system they know next to nothing about, is better in every way.

To all you 3E'ers who are feeling annoyed and frustrated, take heart. In five years or so, all those 4E'ers who are snubbing you and ridiculing your beloved system will get their comeuppance. They will rue this day. Rue it so hard. :smalltongue:

QFT

I've been laughing for about two weeks now. I'm actually in pain because of it.

When 5.0 comes out in 2009, I will probably fall over dead because of it.

Long live AD&D!!!

[Arlanthe]

FYI, as the OP, I am really not opposed to change over time.

However I am opposed to turning D&D to an 18 month Magic: the Gathering Cycle. For any edition, a dozen years should be good, with perhaps a re-vamp midway at six years (as was done with AD&D 2nd Ed.). Then at least I could work up some enthusiasm for it. Now I just think Oi! I mean, I know all of my gaming group is irritated, but I'm also sure we'll all pre-order and play to stay current.

But three edition updates in a decade is a bit much for me... I'd prefer editions last longer than foreign wars.

[Dausuul]

Yes. Yes, I am.

Oddly enough, though, I'm not laughing at the die-hard 3.5E guys, like I thought I would. I'm laughing at the die-hard 4E guys, who have all ready decided that 3E is terribly broken and poorly-made (I've been saying that for years, but as recently as a month ago, those same people who slam 3E today defended it with vigor) and that 4E, a system they know next to nothing about, is better in every way.

To all you 3E'ers who are feeling annoyed and frustrated, take heart. In five years or so, all those 4E'ers who are snubbing you and ridiculing your beloved system will get their comeuppance. They will rue this day. Rue it so hard. :smalltongue:

Can't speak for anyone else, but what I've been saying is that 3E is substantially better than 2E. I don't recall ever claiming 3E was a perfect system; in fact, I've been complaining about problems in the system for years now. But many of those problems were inherited from 2E, and the new problems 3E created were vastly outweighed by the improvements it brought.

Now we're looking at 4E, and it looks like being substantially better than 3E. So I am happy. And when 5E comes around, I'll probably be happy about that, too, because it'll fix some of the problems 4E inherits from 3E. Sorry, I see no comeuppance in the works. :smallbiggrin:


It's really hilarious, isn't it? The best part is that, because their justification was (on some level) that newer is better, they'll never realize how much they contradict themselves. :smallsmile:

Don't believe I've contradicted myself at all. And even if I did think newer was always better, it would beat thinking newer was always worse... like some folks seem to.

[Green Bean]

Yes. Yes, I am.

Oddly enough, though, I'm not laughing at the die-hard 3.5E guys, like I thought I would. I'm laughing at the die-hard 4E guys, who have all ready decided that 3E is terribly broken and poorly-made (I've been saying that for years, but as recently as a month ago, those same people who slam 3E today defended it with vigor) and that 4E, a system they know next to nothing about, is better in every way.

To all you 3E'ers who are feeling annoyed and frustrated, take heart. In five years or so, all those 4E'ers who are snubbing you and ridiculing your beloved system will get their comeuppance. They will rue this day. Rue it so hard. :smalltongue:

Well, to be honest, the reverse is happening as well. Some people have already decided that 4E is going to be full of godlike, unrealistic, and likely unbalanced characters. And some of the very people who were previously talking about how broken 3.5 is are now looking fondly on it.

The thing is, we know next to nothing about the system. It could be fairy dust and Chuck Norris' sweat distilled into pure liquid gaming crack, or it can be an unholy fusion of Eye of Argon and Turkish Star Wars because right now it's too early to call.

As long as we can agree that neither side is entirely innocent of jumping to conclusions, I think we'll avoid too many hard feelings, right? :smallsmile:

[Matthew]

I don't know why people cannot avoid absolute statements in the context of 2e to 3e discussions. Why not "I can't speak for anyone else, but what I've been saying is that I think 3E is substantially better than 2E." ?

[Fax Celestis]

FYI, as the OP, I am really not opposed to change over time.

However I am opposed to turning D&D to an 18 month Magic: the Gathering Cycle. For any edition, a dozen years should be good, with perhaps a re-vamp midway at six years (as was done with AD&D 2nd Ed.). Then at least I could work up some enthusiasm for it. Now I just think Oi! I mean, I know all of my gaming group is irritated, but I'm also sure we'll all pre-order and play to stay current.

But three edition updates in a decade is a bit much for me... I'd prefer editions last longer than foreign wars.

Um, you realize 3.x has been existence for eight years now, right? That's not too far short of the 11 years that 2.x reigned.

[Dausuul]

I don't know why people cannot avoid absolute statements in the context of 2e to 3e discussions. Why not "I can't speak for anyone else, but what I've been saying is that I think 3E is substantially better than 2E." ?

Probably because it's such a pain to append "I think" to every sentence in one's post. Still, point taken.

[bosssmiley]

FYI, as the OP, I am really not opposed to change over time.

However I am opposed to turning D&D to an 18 month Magic: the Gathering Cycle. For any edition, a dozen years should be good, with perhaps a re-vamp midway at six years (as was done with AD&D 2nd Ed.). Then at least I could work up some enthusiasm for it. Now I just think Oi! I mean, I know all of my gaming group is irritated, but I'm also sure we'll all pre-order and play to stay current.

But three edition updates in a decade is a bit much for me... I'd prefer editions last longer than foreign wars.


Re-vamp? Re...Vamp.

I detect a subtle undercurrent here. Would you'd be someone else who hates White Wolf's WOD game turnover rate? I think I saw a 3rd Ed of "Changeling" (Changeling for the love of Pelor!) in my FLGS the other day. Remember folks, however quickly WOTC do their edition turnovers, WOD beat 'em to the punch. :smallamused:

Long live the WFRP/Talislanta pattern! Update once a generation (and even then only tweak the system slightly :smallbiggrin: ), any more often is naught but a cynical cash-grab, mugging your fanbase of their food money down a dark alley.

(yeah, irony. Slathered on with a trowel. REAL thick)

[Tiki Snakes]

Well, there is a 3e conversion of Dark Sun up on Athas.org, you might want to try that if you have trouble with 2e.

Well, I'm only playing in it, you see. The DM has the 2nd edition stuff from the first time around, and so on. In the theoretical future, I do smile heartily on 3/4 edition conversions of the Dark Sun though.

I've pretty much decided that Man Eating is the way Halflings of the non-Hobbity variety should always have been. >_>

[Matthew]

Well, I'm only playing in it, you see. The DM has the 2nd edition stuff from the first time around, and so on. In the theoretical future, I do smile heartily on 3/4 edition conversions of the Dark Sun though.

I've pretty much decided that Man Eating is the way Halflings of the non-Hobbity variety should always have been. >_>

Ah well. Never mind. You never know, you might find 2e Dark Sun to your taste.

[Arlanthe]

Um, you realize 3.x has been existence for eight years now, right? That's not too far short of the 11 years that 2.x reigned.

I'm counting 3.5, which in my opinion was a significant enough change to warrant new-editionism. I don't see the revamped 2nd Ed books that way because the rules remained the same.

[Tiki Snakes]

I'm counting 3.5, which in my opinion was a significant enough change to warrant new-editionism. I don't see the revamped 2nd Ed books that way because the rules remained the same.

I don't know, from what I know of it, 3rd edition is very much similar to 3.5, just with some few additions/subtractions, really. I mean, mechanically it worked pretty much the same way? D20's, skills, feats, ability modifiers *making sense* and so on.

[Orak]

I was contemplating the "toll roads" that wizards are putting in and comparing them to the real roads that I drive each week to get to my D&D game.

I live at the extreme opposite end of spread out city and I drive about 20 km each way. This chews though about 4 litres or just under a gallon of gas each trip. In Canadian funds this costs me about $4.40 each week in gas. Each month I spend almost $20 in gas just getting to my games.

Admittedly I am would still drive to my games even if it was cheaper to play over the computer because I game for the social aspect of D&D more than the convenience and cost effectiveness.

But I might still try out the online gaming roads so that I can play with friends that I have left behind in towns that are a days travel away. I would love to have the chance of finish DMing a game that reached epic levels and spanned a few years of play time but was a half a dozen sessions from completing.

So I may or may not travel these new toll roads but at least there will be the option of driving the online roads to destinations I could never take myself on a weekly basis.

[mudbunny]

(Kudos to Caelic on the Wizards Thread)


"We're going to be releasing a new model of car. We will no longer be providing any service whatsoever for your model. If something is broken, don't bother us about it, because it's not our problem; if you want a car that isn't broken, you should have waited until we released this year's model.

Of course, the fact that so many people have been complaining that the old car is horribly broken and needed to be replaced might have spurred us on a bit to work on the new car as well.


Now: the new car is going to have all different controls than the old ones. That means you'll have to learn to drive all over again. It also means that, once people get used to the new controls, you're going to have a harder and harder time finding people willing to drive your old model, or even ride in it.

Or at least, we think so. We haven't really decided how the new car is going to work exactly. We plan on taking the stuff that worked well from the old car, keep it, and add new stuff to replace the broken stuff in the old car. If it works together, great. If it doesn't, we will change it before we release it.


The new model will have exciting new roads to drive on, but they'll all be toll roads, and you'll have to pay a monthly fee to use them. If you choose not to use the toll roads, that's your choice, but be advised that we'll be spending most of our time and effort on upgrading and maintaining those roads, so we probably won't have much time for those of you who aren't using them.

Of course, we will not be forcing you to take those roads. Nor will we stop you from looking at maps to the destinations that the roads take you and prevent you from getting their on your own. Of course, the destinations are resorts, and are really a bonus on top of the car. We could charge *everyone* who buys the car the price to access the resorts, but that wouldn't be fair to those who don't want to go to the resort, would it.


And, yes, it's true that we sold you an expensive new part for your car just last month, and have been steadily urging you to upgrade it for months now. Yes, it's true that we knew we were going to release the new model and told you it was still a long way off and that you should keep upgrading your car. But, hey! We did all of that because we wanted it to be a surprise. You like surprises, don't you?

Of course, we could have been complete financial morons, like that guy down the street who swears that those nice people on the email really do have a winning lottery ticket in his name, and told people "Don't buy anything for the next 2 and a half years, because we are putting out a new model". But then we would be out of business, and then you wouldn't have any new stuff coming out anyways.


Now: with all that being said, have fun driving your old rust-bucket along pothole laden roads. Those of us who are enlightened and know that "new" is always "better" will shake our heads sympathetically at you while we whiz along in our new cars.

Again we would like to point to all of the people who have complained long and loud that the cars are broken and need to be replaced and remind them of the proverb:

Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.

[JadedDM]

But I might still try out the online gaming roads so that I can play with friends that I have left behind in towns that are a days travel away.

You know, I've been playing D&D online for over five years now. A little thing called OpenRPG? I don't know why everyone is acting like this is a new thing, or is somehow exclusive to 4E only...

[tainsouvra]

You know, I've been playing D&D online for over five years now. A little thing called OpenRPG? I don't know why everyone is acting like this is a new thing, or is somehow exclusive to 4E only... Presumably because the game is now being designed with online applications in mind, rather than attempting to translate a game into an online form. Stuff that was possible before should be standard issue now.

We'll see though--it's entirely possible that it's no more than a marketing push and the game's online presence won't be all that remarkable other than having the WotC logo on it.

[JadedDM]

Well, I mean it's possible (I guess) that 4E's DI will somehow be better than WebRPG or OpenRPG. I don't know how, but anything's feasible. But the truth is, WebRPG, OpenRPG and other such programs have been out there for awhile. They are completely free (no monthly subscription fees) and are specifically designed to cater to tabletop games, from everything to D&D, GURPS, BESM, and what have you. I see all kinds of games on there all of the time, from Dragonball to Serenity.

It just appears to me that WotC is taking something free and easy to use, and acting like it's brand new and charging money for it...

[OzymandiasVolt]

I was beaten with a phonebook for 15 minutes after trying to explain that THACO was a perfectly decent system.

Sorry about that. I guess I got a little carried away. <_<

[Tyger]

Sorry about that. I guess I got a little carried away. <_<

I recognize that typing!!! You were the one that sat in the corner the whole time, mumbling about these "Prestige Class" things!!!

Seriously though folks, there are more than enough 3.5 materials to keep any gamer in happy little bliss for the rest of his/her natural lifespan, and probably beyond. If you don't like 4E, oh well, don't play. Matthew will repeatedly tell anyone who will listen (the elderly do that a lot) that he's still playing 2e, and is happy as a clam with that.

Don't want to pay the monthly fee? Don't. Don't want to buy the books? Don't. Want to play D&D Basic? Go for it. But for the love of god, please stop bemoaning how D&D is over now, as 4e will destroy this game. Its not, and it won't. Not to mention... ummm... you have no idea what's in the game. Once its out, then you can go back to complaining, but please stop talking about this inferior product that you've never seen! :smallconfused:

[Arlanthe]

Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.

Once more, with feeling...

a) 3rd is better than 2nd, and 4th may or may not be better than 3rd, I agree we don't know. b) I just think it's too soon

[Matthew]

Heh, heh. I like all editions of the game for what they are. I don't really think it's too soon, maybe by like a year or something, but I wouldn't have expected 3e to go on much past that.

[Fhaolan]

"So, what are you working on, Bob?"

"Uhh... the creature list for Monster Manual CXXIV?"

"Now, now, Bob. I can read your screen from here. I can see that you're trying to decide how to tweak the character progression for the in-house game."

"Well... yeah, I guess."

"What's the matter, Bob? I've been noticing you're having trouble producing content for the publishing house."

"I just don't understand, really. Why are we producing this endless stream of monsters, prestige classes, and the like? We can't even play-test them properly because none of us play that version of the game anymore."

"We still play D&D in-house, Bob."

"Yes, but we've expanded and changed the rules so much in-house that it's unrecognizable. None of this stuff is compatable. The published rules are twenty years old!"

"You know company policy, Bob. We can't publish a new rule-set for D&D until people stop buying the current one."

"But that's only one guy! In Tibet! Nobody else is buying the stuff! We're losing money every day because Management is unwilling to upset one lone lunatic in Tibet!"

"He has a blog, Bob. He posts reviews. Company policy..."

"He posts in a language nobody can read! It was from one Dragon article on Gnomish!"

"Calm down, Bob."

"I can't do this anymore! It's all an elaborate fantasy!"

"Bob..."

"It's all in my head! I can't possibly be working for you! There's no way you'd still be in business with these kinds of policies!"

"Security..."

"I'll publish our new rules, and you can't stop me!"

---

Bob was subdued by tasers, a security guard having made a Move Silently roll, and a successful Backstab attempt.

His manager was promoted, to run the Tibet Division.

And D&D remained stagnant. Never changing, never progressing. Only endless copies of the same material re-edited over and over again, for all eternity. As it should be.

:smallcool:

[Fax Celestis]

"So, what are you working on, Bob?"

"Uhh... the creature list for Monster Manual CXXIV?"

"Now, now, Bob. I can read your screen from here. I can see that you're trying to decide how to tweak the character progression for the in-house game."

"Well... yeah, I guess."

"What's the matter, Bob? I've been noticing you're having trouble producing content for the publishing house."

"I just don't understand, really. Why are we producing this endless stream of monsters, prestige classes, and the like? We can't even play-test them properly because none of us play that version of the game anymore."

"We still play D&D in-house, Bob."

"Yes, but we've expanded and changed the rules so much in-house that it's unrecognizable. None of this stuff is compatable. The published rules are twenty years old!"

"You know company policy, Bob. We can't publish a new rule-set for D&D until people stop buying the current one."

"But that's only one guy! In Tibet! Nobody else is buying the stuff! We're losing money every day because Management is unwilling to upset one lone lunatic in Tibet!"

"He has a blog, Bob. He posts reviews. Company policy..."

"He posts in a language nobody can read! It was from one Dragon article on Gnomish!"

"Calm down, Bob."

"I can't do this anymore! It's all an elaborate fantasy!"

"Bob..."

"It's all in my head! I can't possibly be working for you! There's no way you'd still be in business with these kinds of policies!"

"Security..."

"I'll publish our new rules, and you can't stop me!"

---

Bob was subdued by tasers, a security guard having made a Move Silently roll, and a successful Backstab attempt.

His manager was promoted, to run the Tibet Division.

And D&D remained stagnant. Never changing, never progressing. Only endless copies of the same material re-edited over and over again, for all eternity. As it should be.

:smallcool:

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooo!

[JadedDM]

Pssh. I can concoct outrageous and imaginary scenarios too.

"So, what are you working on, Bob?"

"The new spell system for fifth edition."

"What? But...fourth edition won't even come out until this May!"

"Sure, I guess. But the magic system in 4E will have a few bugs in it, if you catch my drift. We'll need a new edition to fix them."

"But...but isn't that dishonest?"

"That's company policy. You know that. We are a business. We have to make money."

"But, Bob, couldn't we just make money by making a quality product, rather than intentionally bugging our own games so we can release fixes later on?"

"So naive...sure we could. But we couldn't make AS MUCH money. That's why we canceled Dungeon and Dragon magazines. People were furious, but they'll still fork over all of their cash to us like loyal lemmings, rushing toward a cliff."

---

And D&D was 'upgraded' to fix it every 3 or so years. Always changing, ever "progressing." Only new versions copies of the same material released over and over again, for all eternity. As it should be.

[tainsouvra]

Pssh. I can concoct outrageous and imaginary scenarios too. Ok, I got a kick out of that counterargument. That was funny.

[Fax Celestis]

Pssh. I can concoct outrageous and imaginary scenarios too.

"So, what are you working on, Bob?"

"The new spell system for fifth edition."

"What? But...fourth edition won't even come out until this May!"

"Sure, I guess. But the magic system in 4E will have a few bugs in it, if you catch my drift. We'll need a new edition to fix them."

"But...but isn't that dishonest?"

"That's company policy. You know that. We are a business. We have to make money."

"But, Bob, couldn't we just make money by making a quality product, rather than intentionally bugging our own games so we can release fixes later on?"

"So naive...sure we could. But we couldn't make AS MUCH money. That's why we canceled Dungeon and Dragon magazines. People were furious, but they'll still fork over all of their cash to us like loyal lemmings, rushing toward a cliff."

---

And D&D was 'upgraded' to fix it every 3 or so years. Always changing, ever "progressing." Only new versions copies of the same material released over and over again, for all eternity. As it should be.

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo *gasp* oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

[Matthew]

Wow, this is fun.

[WildBill]

The old car was a manual, the new car is an automatic
Well there goes my chance of buying it. Stupid automatics.

This is the best thread I've seen on here in awhile. Too bad I'm working and can't type out a full response now.
Keep up the awesomeness guys. (I'm from NJ, that's a perfectly aceptable way to address a group of men, or mixed gender, or even a purely female group. We had a nice chat about that today at work). I swear we actually work at my job. Really. Honest to <insert lawful good deity of choice here>.

[Fhaolan]

Absolutely. :smallbiggrin:

Just like the scenario at the begining of this thread. I can make up silly stories, analogies, parodies and whatnot for every side of this argument, pro/con/neither.

This kind of thing entertains the readers, and that's pretty much it. It's not going to change anyone's mind on anything because it's too exagurated and ridiculous.

To be really honest, I don't care about 4th edition beyond being curious about it. It's just another game system to me. I have lots. I will accumulate more over time. Some of them have never been published because I was playtester for a bunch of stuff that never made it to print. Every once in awhile I purge some of the that I'll never get around to playing. (Cult, for instance, and Rifts.)

I can understand how people can get upset about system change when they're enjoying what they're playing now. I can also understand how people get excited by the prospect of something new. And I can understand when people are too cash-poor to buy into a new rule-set, especially when they have to convice the entire gaming group to do so.

I will probably buy the core rules for 4th edition. There's a good possibility that my gaming groups will continue to play 3rd edition (they never made it to 3.5, actually, for various reasons).

This is a relatively expensive hobby. That's one of it's drawbacks. But really, when it all boils down, it's just a game. You can play, or not play. And you can play any version you and the other gamers in your group want. You don't need me, or anyone else here, to sign off on it.

If you're in a gaming group, and they don't want to change to a new system. Don't. If you really need new product from WotC every month to keep playing... If you really need the approval of a bunch of strangers online... Nobody here can really help you with that.

[Fax Celestis]

If you really need the approval of a bunch of strangers online... Nobody here can really help you with that.

Actually, we can, but it's not particularly psychologically healthy.

[Fhaolan]

Actually, we can, but it's not particularly psychologically healthy.

*sigh* Thank you for destroying the basis of my entire argument! :smalltongue: :smallbiggrin:

[The_Werebear]

The thing that worries me is the online fee. Now wait!* Stop!* Don't say it!* I KNOW they aren't forcing me directly to play the new system online at gunpoint, but... If they are focusing everything they have at the online crowd and putting the majority of stuff there, paying 10 bucks a month will start to smell might MMO ish to me. Really, I am worried it will turn into this (http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=86).

Here is a question- Does it count as forcing you to pay the extra and play with the online features if that is full of extra benefits? Indirect coercion. Like "Well, we play with online feature X, Y, and Z, but since you don't have access to those, you aren't going to be able to play in the game." More of a concern for places like the PbP games here. I have run into problems where I wanted to play in a game, but lacked access to the key information.

For those who wish to be scathing- I am not outright saying 4E will suck. I am just very nervous. I get that way every time anyone says "Monthly Fee"

And Fax-Sorry about the Tabasco... I suggested it, but I never thought they would be mad enough to try it. Be glad they didn't take the "Belt Sander up the nose" idea I had... Probably because it involved using the grapple rules.:smalltongue:

[Fax Celestis]

And Fax-Sorry about the Tabasco... I suggested it, but I never thought they would be mad enough to try it. Be glad they didn't take the "Belt Sander up the nose" idea I had... Probably because it involved using the grapple rules.:smalltongue:

At least I didn't get the honey and fire ants like the guy next to me. He was screaming, "Elf is a class! Elf is a class!" the whole time.

[Fhaolan]

In a way, perhaps.

The same way putting the SRD online for free, but leaving out very important chunks of the rules (like the experience tables) is forcing you to buy their books.

There's really two versions.

1) You buy a book. There is additional content, not critical to the book but would be cool to have, that is behind an additional price barrier such as an online subscription fee. This is content that they might have published in another book and required you to buy as a separate item anyway, but instead they put it online.

2) You buy a book. The last chapter of the book that actually tells you have to *use* the material in the book is missing and can only be accessed through an additional price barrier such as the online subscription fee.

The first is normal and expected.

The second is unethical.

I am reserving judgement on which one this will actually be. I wouldn't be that surprised at either version actually occuring, because I am by nature highly suspicious of corporate entities.

[SadisticFishing]

Yeah, because D&D and cars are EXACTLY the same.

4.0 is a new car entirely, and 3.5 is an old car that does not need repairing. We all have fun with it..

[JadedDM]

Yeah, anyone remember Final Fantasy 9? They released a strategy guide for it, but you had to access their website in order to get any of the important information. It was a big rip-off. I'm not saying WotC is doing the same thing, but it did remind me of that scenario when I heard about it.

[Polarbeast]

The first is normal and expected.

The second is unethical.
The first I can see as well... but I think the latter would result in enough outrage to make them back down and retract it.

As for the updating-your-car metaphor, I got mad the first time I heard of the upcoming announcement, having bought so much 3.5E stuff. I received the usual "if you don't like it, don't play it" response.

However, that would be easy. Naturally I won't play it if I don't like it. But I'm worried I WILL like it, that it will clean up a lot of rules issues and be fast and fun to play. That's what causes the irritation about having bought so much resource material, not the mere fact that the game has changed... I'd feel like my supplies were now useless because I WOULD feel like moving on and trying it out. I'd be torn between keeping/using/houseruling my stuff and leaving it behind to re-spend money for the new.

At least I didn't get my eyelids razored off like the guy next to me babbling incoherently about fighter/magic user/thieves. I tried to point out that the guy using the razor didn't have a weapon proficiency slot for it, but got backhanded for my trouble...

[Serenity]

So...Wizards shouldn't try to streamline and rebalance the rules and fix the flaws that everyone complains about because making a better game means people have to spend more money to play the better game? Isn't releasing quality products to make money how we want businesses to behave?

[The_Werebear]

So...Wizards shouldn't try to streamline and rebalance the rules and fix the flaws that everyone complains about because making a better game means people have to spend more money to play the better game? Isn't releasing quality products to make money how we want businesses to behave?

Yes. But we don't want them putting out new products every 5 minutes. Because then, to stay current, one must buy new books and learn the new system and new rules all over again. DND books are quite an investment in both time and money, and increasing the duration that a product will last leads to happy customers.

What is worrisome (at least to me) is that this update is faster than the previous system jumps (8 years is the shortest duration so far, especially with the 3.5 overhaul that required everyone to get new books, if they wanted the updated rules) and shows the most potential to keep draining money at a steady basis. Because they aren't saying that all new content will come in the form of these online updates. I am willing to bet there will be 4.0 equivalents of the complete series, to pull even more money.

There is such a thing as too much. And while no one is forcing anyone to buy the books, there is subtle pressure, both in keeping up with the mainstream community and ease of finding new games. If you doubt me on this, compare the number of games that are 3.X DnD available in recruiting versus 2nd Edition.

I am going to wait and see before I pass final judgment on 4E. A lot of potential is there... But if they want a whole new system and books and monthly fees for a retread and rules update (which is a real possibility, though maybe not the most likely one), I am going to be let down.

[Fhaolan]

There is another way of looking at it, but I wouldn't say it's a *good* way, or the correct way. It's just another way.

New editions of a game come about because the people writing the game discover that a lot of people are turned off of the game because the core rulebooks are arcane (1st edition DMG to 2nd edition). Or because the weight of all the suppliments are invalidating the core rules and magnifying minor loopholes and math errors (2nd to 3rd). Or because the product was rushed into production before it was really finished (3rd to 3.5). Or... because the designers realized that a lot of people are playing the game quite differently than the way they had written it, making their core assumptions invalid (3.5 to 4th).

There is always the chance that the designers are simply making a good-faith attempt at fixing what they percieve as glaring problems in the ruleset. Or what they've been *told* is glaring problems in the ruleset on every forum they visit, be it online like here, or offline at conventions. If all they hear about is CoDzilla, Wizard 'win' buttons, fighter sucking, and horrible grappling and whatnot, what do you think they're going to do? Sit there and say 'Suck it up! And stop licking my boots!' No. They're going to try to fix it. And a lot of these supposed problems can only be fixed if they go back to first principles.

They don't have to be money-grubbing bastards out to scrabble the last few coins from the depleted purse of the RPG hobby.

That would be the marketing department. :smallbiggrin:

[The_Werebear]

Quit being so mature and reasonable Fhaolan. You're taking the fun out of our paranoid, uninformed ranting.:smallwink:

[grinner666]

The only problem I have with the new edition is that I haven't seen nearly enough previews of it to decide whether I want it or not.

I'll tell you this: when 2nd Edition came out I bought all three of the core books as soon as I could. When 3.0 came out, the previews everybody in my group saw in Dragon told us all we wanted it.

When 3.5 came out, some of the people in my group resisted. In fact, one player REFUSED to ever purchase it, and wanted everyone in the group to agree to that tactic. After all, it had only been a few years since 3.0 had hit the shelves. But after looking at the previews, one of our players bought it. Eventually everyone did, even the (lunatic) holdout, because it was so clearly a superior product.

I'd like to know a LOT more about 4.0 before I buy. But I don't see a hundred bucks or so every four years as a horrendous expense.

And that's ALL I intend to spend on 4.0 at this point. I'll buy the three core rulebooks, but I don't intend to spend a lot of money on supplements. In 2.0 I spent a lot of money on game settings and adventures, and bought ... a total of three supplements. In 3.0 I bought only the Oriental Adventures game setting and a few supplements for that setting. In 3.5 I bought only the core books ... and waited over two years to buy the MM from that because the 3.0 book worked out just fine with 3.5. I intend to pinch Abe 'til he screams with 4.0, too ... assuming I buy. If not, I'll get along just fine with 3.5 and it's pothole-filled roads, thanks.

But I intend to suspend judgment until I actually see something from 4th edition.

[Matthew]

There is such a thing as too much. And while no one is forcing anyone to buy the books, there is subtle pressure, both in keeping up with the mainstream community and ease of finding new games. If you doubt me on this, compare the number of games that are 3.X DnD available in recruiting versus 2nd Edition.

There are 2e recruitment Threads?

[The_Werebear]

There are 2e recruitment Threads?

That is exactly the point.

[Matthew]

Ah, but this Forum is very 3e focused. there are other Sites out there (such as Dragonsfoot) that would give an equally skewed view in the opposite direction. That said, I agree broadly with the sentiment, and now am tempted to begin posting 2e Recruitment Threads...

[SageinaRage]

This is a relatively expensive hobby.

I'm flabbergasted by people who think that this hobby is in any way expensive. What could you possibly be comparing it to? For the vast majority of people, it's one book to buy every 4-5 years, at LEAST, and maybe a couple more books for classes and settings you like playing.

With the exception of going to the library for all of your entertainment needs, I really don't see very much being cheaper.

[Zincorium]

I look at it this way. In addition to playing D&D, I also am a computer gamer.

Most games need a fairly up to date system, and there is very little trade in value for used components, so you're paying pretty much full price for the components on upgrade. A new graphics card is easily hundreds of dollars for one that will run brand new games at acceptable levels.

Even if there are nine core books, I need all of them, and more will be released soon, at $40 apiece I'm still spending only about 360 for what is essentially a new computer and a new game to go with it. Now since I won't want or need all of the new core books besides the basic three, and I can probably get them for a bit less than forty, it seems like a pretty good deal.

Better yet, a friendly and localized group can get along alright with just one set of books (although PHBs for everyone is nice). There is no way in heck a LAN party can work with just one PC for everyone, especially if it only cost $120.

Compared to my other hobby, D&D could release new editions every two years and I'd still be spending less money on it. I don't want them that quickly, but then I don't like the way the computer hardware industry works either.

[Ryacko]

Don't play those unfun RPGs, play PARANOIA!

[ocato]

The main thing we need to remember is that the manufacturer does not hold the monopoly on repairs and upgrades. Heck, you can take your car apart and fix it however you like whenever you like for free. The books, the added material, the guides and the modules are all advice and suggestions on how to have fun, but you can play D&D with a bag of dice and some notebook paper. You might have to make some stuff up as you go along, design your own classes and monsters, and balance them how you like them over time, but you can do it. For free. And heck, you might just enjoy it.

[Fhaolan]

I'm flabbergasted by people who think that this hobby is in any way expensive. What could you possibly be comparing it to? For the vast majority of people, it's one book to buy every 4-5 years, at LEAST, and maybe a couple more books for classes and settings you like playing.

With the exception of going to the library for all of your entertainment needs, I really don't see very much being cheaper.

Paper models. Writing. Mooching off of friends and family (I count that as a hobby, although some manage to make it into a career).

You can do RPGs cheap, but that involves just buying the bare minimum to play the games. Most of the gamers I know buy *everything*. Every card game, RPG suppliment, computer & console game, minature, terrain, every scrap of lint that falls from the pockets of game designers.

I know one fellow who spends $1,000 US a month on this hobby, in increasingly weird and obscure ways. He collects each *printing* of a book, and catalogues the differences. He's constantly calling himself the Ackerman of RPGs (in which he completely misunderstands Uncle Forry's contribution to sci-fi).

[Anxe]

Well the difference between a car and a new edition is pretty big. A good car costs $10,000. The new edition shouldn't be more than $90. And since I haven't said it yet. Yes it is too early for a new edition. They should wait at least 10 years between each one.

[Sulecrist]

When I started 3.5 (roughly around when it came out) I was a kid in high school. Now I'm more than halfway through college (at my third school), I've lived in two different countries on my own, and played in hundreds and hundreds of hours of games. One semester, I spent over forty hours a week doing RPGs of various sorts.

I look at myself and how much I've changed, even when I'm just considering the games that've gotten me here. I still have no idea how to Grapple (other than that Attacks of Opportunity are involved) and I've never been in an Epic campaign, but I'm satisfied with my 3.5 experience. I got my money's worth.

The cash I spend on 4.0 would've gone to Wizards anyway. When the ToB wave subsided and my schedule opened up enough for another campaign, I preordered Saga and had a blast with it. I've spent the last few weeks (days? I lose track of time easily) with MM5 and it already feels like an old friend. So when 4th comes, I'll buy it and play it, and the story will go on with better rules and I'll finally have a legitimate reason to ban all of the splatbooks I don't like.

3.5 was my high school RPG experience. It was a good system. It's like my high school car (an Oldsmobile Silouhette; big green soccer mom tank). It was clunky and unsexy but it ran well and it got me and my friends where we needed to be.

I just bought a BMW 318i convertible (used; it's a '94, so that kind of kills the metaphor but we'll pretend it's new) and it runs infinitely better than the van ever did. It takes corners well, is more efficient, and gets me to the same places in comfort and class. It'll be the car that finishes college with me and I'll probably drive it until I meet someone and settle down. I think 4th Edition will be the same.

Hopefully the price of gas'll be reasonable, though.

[Altair_the_Vexed]

Pffft! Dare I say "LOL"? :smallbiggrin:

Me, I'm just I'm hoping there'll be a 4th Ed SRD.

Then - as I've done each time there's been an upgrade, but like it was with 3 and 3.5, for free rather than the thirty quid or so the books set me back when I had to save my pound a week pocket money and three pounds a week paper delivering wage - I'll steal the stuff I like and bolt it onto my ever-growing work of the last three decades.

[OzymandiasVolt]

I'm going to wait until it's released to draw conclusions. And I'm not going to complain because they didn't wait an arbitrary amount of time before officially fixing big errors in the system. I'm not the Highlander over here.