Eldritch Blast - Nerf / House Rule

[Talamare]

Just sharing a way to nerf Eldritch Blast, this is obviously optional. As well as they is obviously plenty of debate on whether it even needs a nerf... Either way here goes!

Step 1 - Eldritch Blast is no longer a spell in the Warlock Spell List, nor is it classified as a Warlock Spell.

Step 2 - New Eldritch Invocation - Eldritch Blast, you learn the Eldritch Blast Cantrip.

Step 3 - Agonizing Blast now has Lv5 requirements.

Step 4 - Additional Beams Scale based on Warlock levels instead of Total levels

Why Step 1?
By removing this spell from all Spell Lists, it can no longer be taken. Magic Initiate takes spells from a Spell List, Bard's Lore takes spells from a Class. Meaning there will be no way to get Eldritch Blast without the Invocation. (Note, if I missed a way, just let me know)

Step 2
Acts as both a means of reducing the Cantrip 'tax' that Warlocks face, allowing them more diversity. Tho it also implements a new tax onto them on invocations. Optionally, you may bundle Agonizing Blast into Eldritch Blast.

Step 3
Just aligning it with other massive power spikes found in other classes. Not to mention removing the 2 level easy access dip that would still be possible.


Warlocks probably don't need a nerf or maybe they do. Eldritch Blast probably doesn't need a nerf, or maybe it does.
Don't use it, or use it. I honestly don't care that much, I just wanted to share the idea.

Step 4

My angle remains that the dip problem isn't in Agonizing Blast being available with just two levels of warlock, but in eldritch blast being a cantrip that gains additional beams with your total character level.

Make it a class feature or invocation that functions like the fighter's Extra Attack.


=========================================

Edit - Alternative as Suggested by a few different people below, keeping original for Posterity Sake

Step 1 - Eldritch Blast is no longer a Spell

Step 2 - Eldritch Blast is now a Class Feature that all Warlocks gain at Lv1

Step 3 - Additional Beams Scale based on Warlock Levels instead of Total Levels

Optional - Agonizing Blast now has a Lv5 requirement

[SkylarkR6]

Seems like you could just remove it from the spell list and make it a class feature so feats can't pick it up. Assuming you're DMing so you can just rule out multiclass at your table. EB is bread and butter.

[Millstone85]

My angle remains that the dip problem isn't in Agonizing Blast being available with just two levels of warlock, but in eldritch blast being a cantrip that gains additional beams with your total character level.

Make it a class feature or invocation that functions like the fighter's Extra Attack.

[Talamare]

Seems like you could just remove it from the spell list and make it a class feature so feats can't pick it up. Assuming you're DMing so you can just rule out multiclass at your table. EB is bread and butter.

Essentially what was done, but I suppose I made it more convoluted than a hard written feature.

[MrStabby]

If I were to be looking to nerf level 2 power spikes I would be looking at moon druid rather than warlock.

Is warlock really too powerful at levels 2 to 5. D10 plus casting stat damage seems pretty standard.

Between animated objects, banishment, polymorphism and the like I don't tend to find eldritch blast a problem spell

[ProseBeforeHos]

Eldritch Blast is warlock.

While I admit that I hate the design of warlocks as a class, and their over-reliance on this cantrip, this is not the way to go around fixing them.

My own home-brew is to say that a) eldritch blast gains extra attacks with warlock levels, not class levels, b) warlocks slots cannot be exchanged for sorcery points, c) pact of the blade warlocks gain thirsting blade as a class feature at warlock level 5.

These changes stop the cheese of sorlock and the extra cheese of coffee-lock, and slightly buff bladelocks (making them a more attractive option to players).

[SkylarkR6]

Essentially what was done, but I suppose I made it more convoluted than a hard written feature.

Basically. Also I was inferring the removal of the level requirement for Agonizing Blast. Other then 2/3 spells per short rest locks don't have a whole lot more other then, IMO, great RP tools in their fluff invocations and being a "face".

Alternatively, EB stays a cantrip with agonizing blast built in but caps out at 2 beams. Level 11 invocation that gives eb another beam, and then it's 4th at 17?
Would make casters a bit more powerful at lower levels but not any more so if shooting 1d10+stat as opposed to a s&b doing 1d8+2+stat with longsword and dueling, or glaive with 1d10+stat.

Everyone stays in line until their builds Branch out. And it stops the higher level shenanigans

[Elminster298]

Why? Bottom line is, if you are the DM and players are using cheese AFTER YOU HAVE already talked to them about it, just ban multiclassing. That's it. Stop acting like there is something wrong with the game just because you have bad players or are a bad DM. This would not change anything at an AL game. Only at your personal non AL game. So stop trying to "fix" the game and fix yourself instead.

[PeteNutButter]

The whole eldritch blast power in 2 levels is pretty strong, but it isn't without drawbacks. It comes mostly on bards or sorcerers who are then behind on a full level of spells. Putting out an average of 19 damage through most of tier 2 and 31.5 damage in tier 3 is good, but in an optimized party, can be necessary to keep up. Martial characters with feats can put out quite a bit more, and be tougher as well.

The real problem is that when a bard or sorcerer dips warlock they outshine the regular warlock. Warlock is just weak IMO. Probably because the encounter per day/short rest ratio is generally way off what it should be. Maybe there is something else about warlock design, but I've repeatedly seen a recurring feel for warlocks that they are lackluster. Maybe people just get bored with them too quickly.

At any rate, changing the way eldritch blast works might not be a bad idea, but I'd avoid nerfing it on actual warlocks. Your proposed changes make warlocks terrible pre level 5, when they put out a whole 1d10 damage a round (which then oddly more than triples). I'd also avoid making any more invocation taxes. I'd just add one word to the spell:
"This spell creates more than one beam when you reach higher warlock levels..."

Bing bang boom. "Problem" solved.

[trctelles]

House rule that Eldritch Blast beams scale with Warlock level instead of total character level. This way Warlocks won't suffer from it, and dips will not be that usefull.

I know most people went nuts over Hexblade, but in the end of the day, warlocks aren't that strong on their own. Appart from Hexblade, the other Warlock patrons are really balanced, and even Hexblade is just considered "OP" because you get SO MUCH by dipping 2~3 levels with it.

I don't think Eldritch Blast needs a nerf, and I think most bards won't waste a magical secret to get a cantrip. As some other people stated, just make Eldritch Blast scale with Warlock levels and you should solve the problem of Bards and Sorcerers dipping for the best damage cantrip in the game.

[Davrix]

Why? Bottom line is, if you are the DM and players are using cheese AFTER YOU HAVE already talked to them about it, just ban multiclassing. That's it. Stop acting like there is something wrong with the game just because you have bad players or are a bad DM. This would not change anything at an AL game. Only at your personal non AL game. So stop trying to "fix" the game and fix yourself instead.

This

VERY MUCH THIS

Multi-class will always break / make combos that are better than anything else in ANY SYSTEM. There is no possible way for a design team to think of and test every possible combo in a way that mass play will give and by that time its usually to late. The open play test did a lot to help 5th but its not perfect and as time goes on power creep will happen. The simple solution is you don't allow multi-class. There boom done most of the cheesy idiot combos are taken care of and for the few sub-classes that can shine more then others? Easy fix, have the base stat array be the default. This curbs most power builds into reasonable limitations and even if you get a power player. Let them be one if only a little. Dnd is meant to be a game of fun, you should always try to set boundaries but never, EVER slap a player down for his or way of having fun and power game is many players way of having fun. Be a better Dm, plan around it, having control over the base stat array and class combos will give you the tools needed to challenge any power player and not kill the rest of the party outright if that's the situation your in. I get so sick and tired of all these little nerf or balance rules from Dm's because they don't like the balance, its broken. its pure cheese and it kills all my monsters before i can do anything cool. This is when I feel DnD becomes a dictatorship of suck and not a group game of fun.

[OldTrees1]

Strange that you would take 1 cantrip and nerf it so drastically relative to other cantrips. The math behind cantrip balance is that at each tier the cantrip scales to still be level appropriate (which means scaling with character level rather than class level). So I suggest not tying it to just Warlock levels (unless you want Warlock 15/___ 5s to be unable to use Eldritch Blast).

Your other nerfs seem better tuned to the particular issues you have. By requiring an invocation and upping the level of agonizing it now takes Warlock 2 to get Eldritch Blast and Warlock 5 to get Agonizing Blast. Both of these changes increase the multiclassing cost to acquire the ability while still making sure the cantrip remains level appropriate as the character levels up. If necessary you could even double down and move Agonizing Blast up to whatever level the Blade version is on (14th?).

[Contrast]

So I suggest not tying it to just Warlock levels (unless you want Warlock 15/___ 5s to be unable to use Eldritch Blast).

A fighter who multiclasses can't get 4 attacks but I'm pretty sure they still use the attack action. You weigh up the decision to multiclass with this in mind.

I'm inclined to agree putting off when you pick up agonising blast reduces a lot of the shenanigans as a lot of the power in picking up eldritch blast comes from agonising blast, however by doing this (and making eldritch blast itself cost an invocation) you're nerfing single classed warlocks and I don't think that's needed.

Making eldritch blast a class feature nerfs multiclassing dips (which is most peoples complaint) while leaving a single classed warlock untouched.

[OldTrees1]

A fighter who multiclasses can't get 4 attacks but I'm pretty sure they still use the attack action. You weigh up the decision to multiclass with this in mind.

I'm inclined to agree putting off when you pick up agonising blast reduces a lot of the shenanigans as a lot of the power in picking up eldritch blast comes from agonising blast, however by doing this (and making eldritch blast itself cost an invocation) you're nerfing single classed warlocks and I don't think that's needed.

Making eldritch blast a class feature nerfs multiclassing dips (which is most peoples complaint) while leaving a single classed warlock untouched.

A wizard 15 / ____ 5 still gets a full powered Firebolt.
A eldritch knight 15 / ____ 5 still gets a full powered Green Flame Blade.
Is Eldritch Blast more like Cantrips or like Extra Attack? Personally it looks like a Cantrip to me.


That said, you have good points that the other nerfs unfairly impact Warlock 20s.


Honestly I think the problem (if there is one) boils down to Eldritch Blast being slightly better than other Cantrips. Eldritch Blast is almost just a type shifted FireBolt. But has much more support in the form of Hex and Agonizing Blast.

Huh, what about the d10s scale by character level but the number of attacks scale by Warlock levels?
A Warlock 20 would get 4d10+4*Cha+4*Hex
A Warlock 11/____ 9 would get 4d10+3*Cha+3*Hex
A Warlock 5/____ 15 would get 4d10+2*Cha+2*Hex
A Warlock 2/____ 18 would get 4d10+Cha+Hex
A Warlock 1/ ____ 19 would get 4d10+Hex (aka a type shifted FireBolt)

[trctelles]

Eldritch Blast acts exactly as Extra Attack. You have to make an attack roll for each beam, where other damage cantrips just roll more dice, making Eldritch Blast Deal consistent damage when compared to other cantrips. Also, Hex and Agonizing Blast scale really nicely with It.
Eldritch Blast was designed to make Warlock be able to do damage after they're out of spell slots, which will happen quite fast in a hard fight.

[Theodoxus]

If Eldritch Blast did fire damage, and Fire Bolt was replaced with Force Bolt, dealing Force instead of fire, I don't think anyone would regard EB as essential anymore.

But EB does Force, a nigh unresisted damage type, can add Charisma to each bolt, can fire separate bolts at multiple targets and can knock critters back 10' (or up to 40' depending on interpretation). Each of those things makes it better than any other cantrip... you want to knock EB down a peg, I suggest targeting any (or all) of these issues first.

[Dr. Cliché]

I don't see the necessity of nerfing EB. At most, I could understand EB an automatic class feature, rather than a cantrip (so that you can't just get it with Magical Secrets or such).

In terms of multi-classing, the issue I have with nerfing EB to only work with Warlock levels is that it screws over not only the strong builds but also the weaker (but fun/flavourful) ones.

For example, I've used a Warlock/Rogue before. There wasn't a huge amount of synergy between the classes and it was probably weaker than using a straight warlock or rogue. However, it was a lot of fun to play. But, if doing it had caused my primary attack cantrip to upgrade 2-3 levels later than everyone else's, I just wouldn't have bothered. I'd just have been too far behind.


If Eldritch Blast did fire damage, and Fire Bolt was replaced with Force Bolt, dealing Force instead of fire, I don't think anyone would regard EB as essential anymore.

But EB does Force, a nigh unresisted damage type, can add Charisma to each bolt, can fire separate bolts at multiple targets and can knock critters back 10' (or up to 40' depending on interpretation). Each of those things makes it better than any other cantrip... you want to knock EB down a peg, I suggest targeting any (or all) of these issues first.

The thing is though, Eldritch Blast is the core of the Warlock. If you bring it down to the level of the standard cantrips, then what's the point of even playing a Warlock? You'd just be playing a Wizard without about 1/5 of the spell slots. :smalltongue:

[Contrast]

Snip

Agree with others above who note that eldritch blast being good is a feature of warlocks, not a mistake to clamped down on.

If you're really worried about the multiclassed warlock I'd point out that a level 15 eldritch blast still does more damage than a level 20 firebolt.

Thinking about it my preferred solution if you want to reduce the effectiveness of warlock dips is to just change the wording of the cantrip itself rather than make it a class feature (as that makes things wonky as to if casting it is casting a spell) so that it only improves on warlocks levels rather than class levels like other cantrips. It makes it the exception but then warlocks are the exception to all spellcasting so *shrugs*

[Gardakan]

Why nerfing something that is ok.

There are far more powerful combinations then all those that rely around Eldritch Blast.

[Byke]

It's an optional house rule, your table uses. I just don't see why you would use it.

Step 1
By removing this spell from all Spell Lists, it can no longer be taken. Magic Initiate takes spells from a Spell List, Bard's Lore takes spells from a Class. Meaning there will be no way to get Eldritch Blast without the Invocation. (Note, if I missed a way, just let me know)

And this a problem how? without Agonizing Blast EB = FB

Step 2
Acts as both a means of reducing the Cantrip 'tax' that Warlocks face, allowing them more diversity. Tho it also implements a new tax onto them on invocations. Optionally, you may bundle Agonizing Blast into Eldritch Blast.

Cantrip tax? Every caster takes a damage Cantrip....not getting the Cantrip 'tax' argument. Yes it's definitely a invocation tax. Unless you give EB + 1 invocation that modifies EB.


Step 3
Just aligning it with other massive power spikes found in other classes. Not to mention removing the 2 level easy access dip that would still be possible.

What massive spike? You mean Level 5 - Two attacks? EB is great sustained DPS. What is the massive power spike that is such a problem < 5th level. It does the same damage as an Xbow + dex from any other ranged character.

This house rule basically forces a player to play full level lock and discourage / nerfs multi-classing.

If it's such a problem at your table, maybe you should have a house rule about not multiclassing instead of changing the game system. As multiclassing is the optional rule.

[Talamare]

It's an optional house rule, your table uses. I just don't see why you would use it.

Step 1
By removing this spell from all Spell Lists, it can no longer be taken. Magic Initiate takes spells from a Spell List, Bard's Lore takes spells from a Class. Meaning there will be no way to get Eldritch Blast without the Invocation. (Note, if I missed a way, just let me know)

And this a problem how? without Agonizing Blast EB = FB

Step 2
Acts as both a means of reducing the Cantrip 'tax' that Warlocks face, allowing them more diversity. Tho it also implements a new tax onto them on invocations. Optionally, you may bundle Agonizing Blast into Eldritch Blast.

Cantrip tax? Every caster takes a damage Cantrip....not getting the Cantrip 'tax' argument. Yes it's definitely a invocation tax. Unless you give EB + 1 invocation that modifies EB.


Step 3
Just aligning it with other massive power spikes found in other classes. Not to mention removing the 2 level easy access dip that would still be possible.

What massive spike? You mean Level 5 - Two attacks? EB is great sustained DPS. What is the massive power spike that is such a problem < 5th level. It does the same damage as an Xbow + dex from any other ranged character.

This house rule basically forces a player to play full level lock and discourage / nerfs multi-classing.

If it's such a problem at your table, maybe you should have a house rule about not multiclassing instead of changing the game system. As multiclassing is the optional rule.

Eldritch Blast is never Firebolt
Eldritch Blast makes Multiple Attacks which means higher consistency and has the option to 'aoe'

Warlocks are a little more reliant on Cantrips than other casters since they generally don't cast as many spells per day.

Level 5 is a power spike for all classes, I'm not sure you're arguing against.

There is no changes to Multiclassing that isn't commonly seen when attempting other Multiclass Combination.
Bringing them in line with other Multiclassing Combinations does not equal hating Multiclassing and wanting it completely gone.

[Dudewithknives]

The main problem I see with every single idea of how to change EB to keep people from dipping 2 levels of warlock and leaving is that it completely cheats the warlock to do it.

Warlock is already the worst class in the game, don't make them even worse.

Leave the invocations alone and just make EB a class ability gained at level 1.

Not a spell at all, a warlock class ability that produces multiple beams as the levels it does now.

Because it is not a spell sorcerer's can't quicken it, and their Sorcerer levels would not scale it.
Bards and Paladins levels will not scale it.
It is a ranged spell attack so martial can't sharpshooter it, or use archery style
It would still be the foundation of the Warlock class without being just bait for better classes to dip for.

Change the invocations to say instead of "when you cast Eldritch Blast" to say "when you use Eldritch Blast"

[Dr. Cliché]

Because it is not a spell sorcerer's can't quicken it, and their Sorcerer levels would not scale it.
Bards and Paladins levels will not scale it.
It is a ranged spell attack so martial can't sharpshooter it, or use archery style
It would still be the foundation of the Warlock class without being just bait for better classes to dip for.

But at this point you might as well just ban multiclassing with the Warlock, since you're basically saying it's not allowed to synergise with anything and the ability it relies on only scales if you don't take levels in any other class.

[Talamare]

But at this point you might as well just ban multiclassing with the Warlock, since you're basically saying it's not allowed to synergise with anything and the ability it relies on only scales if you don't take levels in any other class.
How I read your reply
"How dare you fix this! Might as well throw everything into the TRASH!"

[Dr. Cliché]

How I read your reply
"How dare you break this! Might as well throw everything into the TRASH!"

There, I 'fixed' your reply for you. :smallwink:

[Talamare]

How I read your reply
"How dare you break this! Might as well throw everything into the TRASH!"

There, I 'fixed' your reply for you. :smallwink:

Tho you didn't change the fact that you're overreacting to this?

Even if Eldritch Blast was DELETED, there would still be reasons to Multiclass into Warlock
Yet you agree that you only care about the 2 Level Dip to get Agonizing Blast?

[Dudewithknives]

But at this point you might as well just ban multiclassing with the Warlock, since you're basically saying it's not allowed to synergise with anything and the ability it relies on only scales if you don't take levels in any other class.

How is that any different than every martial having their levels not stack for extra attacks but casters do?

No, EB is not allowed to synergize with other classes, everything else works just fine.

Let's be honest, people want EB because it is like getting a free infinite ammo magic heavy crossbow that is based on a casting stat that you can steal for 2 levels in a crap class and take all their good abilities and leave.

How about people MC for an actual RP reason and not for power gaming reasons.

[Dr. Cliché]

Tho you didn't change the fact that you're overreacting to this?

Throwing something broken in the bin is "overreacting"?

If you say so, man.


Even if Eldritch Blast was DELETED, there would still be reasons to Multiclass into Warlock

Yeah, I'm going to have to disagree with this.


Yet you agree that you only care about the 2 Level Dip to get Agonizing Blast?

Please quote where I said that.


How is that any different than every martial having their levels not stack for extra attacks but casters do?

Interesting point. But, in that case, why are you only interested in changing it for Warlocks?



Let's be honest, people want EB because it is like getting a free infinite ammo magic heavy crossbow that is based on a casting stat that you can steal for 2 levels in a crap class and take all their good abilities and leave.

Project much?

Again, when have I talked about just two levels in the Warlock class?

Why are you so desperate that Warlocks themselves be banned from multiclassing?



How about people MC for an actual RP reason and not for power gaming reasons.

I actually talked about this in an earlier post but I guess reading is hard.

[Byke]

Eldritch Blast is never Firebolt
Eldritch Blast makes Multiple Attacks which means higher consistency and has the option to 'aoe'

Warlocks are a little more reliant on Cantrips than other casters since they generally don't cast as many spells per day.

Level 5 is a power spike for all classes, I'm not sure you're arguing against.

There is no changes to Multiclassing that isn't commonly seen when attempting other Multiclass Combination.
Bringing them in line with other Multiclassing Combinations does not equal hating Multiclassing and wanting it completely gone.

Flip a coin once and you have a 50% chance to get heads or tails....continue flipping that coin and it's always 50% chance to get heads or tails. You just get more chances to hit or miss. As for the AOE option is it really different than an archer?

I'm still not getting why it being a cantrip is so bad? As for my argument below 5th level there is no power spike, it does 1d10 + Char, why make an argument for a non-issue?

The house rule to Warlock basically nerf some of the more interesting **edit Multi-classing**, for sorcerers and any other char class that need decent sustained DPS.

[Alderic78]

I also think that having it as a class feature would have been much better.
Wouldn't stop warlock dips, but that's not really the issue

[Vogie]

That's ridiculous - it's effectively nerfing the entire class because of one thing you dislike.

It also obliterates any of the non-blasting uses of EB:

Repelling Blast - Knocks target back, great around cliffs or walls
Grasp of Hadar - Pulls target forward, really useful for bladelocks, pit traps and nautical campaigns
Eldritch Smite - (Edit: 100%) chance to knock target prone
Eldritch Spear - extend range
Lance of Lethargy - Sap target's movement speed
Kiss of Mephistopheles - fireball combos to create AoE
Raven Queen’s Blessing - Battle healing


One of the interesting parts of the warlock is having a small cantrip that each warlock can customize using the limited number of Eldritch Invocations available. I mean, an 18th level warlock has only 8 invocations, and they could literally waste every single one on just customizing EB.

If you want to house rule a level requirement on Agonizing Blast to discourage dips, that's fine. But the rest of it is an utter misunderstanding of the class as a whole.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Just going to point out that Eldritch Smite always knocks the target prone.

More importantly, however, is the fact that it’s an invocation that has nothing to do with altering the capabilities of Eldritch blast, despite sharing the Eldritch in its name.

[the secret fire]

Why? Bottom line is, if you are the DM and players are using cheese AFTER YOU HAVE already talked to them about it, just ban multiclassing. That's it. Stop acting like there is something wrong with the game just because you have bad players or are a bad DM. This would not change anything at an AL game. Only at your personal non AL game. So stop trying to "fix" the game and fix yourself instead.

Thing is that multiclassing is only really problematic with one class, and specifically one feature of one class. Why ban multiclassing, in general, when you can fix the lion's share of the problems by simply reforming the biggest offender? I think the OP has the right idea.

[Elminster298]

Thing is that multiclassing is only really problematic with one class, and specifically one feature of one class. Why ban multiclassing, in general, when you can fix the lion's share of the problems by simply reforming the biggest offender? I think the OP has the right idea.

You only ban multiclassing AFTER you talk to your players about abusing cheese and broken builds. You state at session zero that any attempt to break the game with be shut down. If you have good players, things will run smoothly without problems. If you are a good DM, you can stop most problems before they happen...or fix them after the fact. I have several times ran "no holds barred, anything goes" games for when player's just want to play broken things. I have never and will never play with a GM who makes decisions for reasons such as this. It is unnecessary and a lazy way of running a game if you can't even simply talk to your players...

[jas61292]

Agonizing Blast is poorly designed, and anything to kill off 2 level dips in Warlock is a good thing. That said, Eldritch Blast by itself is a fine cantrip. It is iconic, and the fact that it is so good for damage is offset by it naturally having no other utility besides that. If you want to fix things, just make Agonizing Blast have a level requirement of 5. That is still earlier than any other class would get access to adding casting stats to cantrip damage, so its hardly killing pure Warlocks, but it makes it so that everyone and their mother doesn't suddenly want to make a pact with the devil (or really nowadays, a pact with a sentient weapon) for no good reason.

[Avonar]

Question: Is this actually a problem?

I've played with many people over 3 years and I've never seen anyone take a warlock dip just for Eldritch Blasting.


Agonizing Blast is poorly designed, and anything to kill off 2 level dips in Warlock is a good thing. That said, Eldritch Blast by itself is a fine cantrip. It is iconic, and the fact that it is so good for damage is offset by it naturally having no other utility besides that. If you want to fix things, just make Agonizing Blast have a level requirement of 5. That is still earlier than any other class would get access to adding casting stats to cantrip damage, so its hardly killing pure Warlocks, but it makes it so that everyone and their mother doesn't suddenly want to make a pact with the devil (or really nowadays, a pact with a sentient weapon) for no good reason.

The problem is that this it affects low level Warlocks significantly. The spell slots mean that cantrips will always be your main go to for attack, whereas wizards or sorcerors will have a number of chromatic orbs they can use in a fight. Agonizing Blast allows a warlock to remain on par in combat for those first few levels.

[Talamare]

The problem is that this it affects low level Warlocks significantly. The spell slots mean that cantrips will always be your main go to for attack, whereas wizards or sorcerors will have a number of chromatic orbs they can use in a fight. Agonizing Blast allows a warlock to remain on par in combat for those first few levels.

Assuming 2 Short Rests per 1 Long Rest
Lv1 - Warlock 3, Sorcerer 2, Wizard 3
Lv2 - Warlock 6, Sorcerer 4, Wizard 4
Lv3 - Warlock 6(Lv2), Sorcerer 4/2(optional 4/3), Wizard 4/3
Lv4 - Warlock 6(Lv2), Sorcerer 4/3(optional 4/4), Wizard 4/4

So it looks like Warlock is tied with Wizard at level 1
Strictly better than everything by a large margin at level 2
Strictly better than everything at level 3, at worst they have 1 less Lv1 cast in exchange for 3 additional Lv2 casts
Arguably equal at level 4, at worst they have 2 less Lv1 casts, in exchange for 2 additional Lv2 casts.

So...
Warlocks are basically just better at lower levels.

[Avonar]

Assuming 2 Short Rests per 1 Long Rest
Lv1 - Warlock 3, Sorcerer 2, Wizard 3
Lv2 - Warlock 6, Sorcerer 4, Wizard 4
Lv3 - Warlock 6(Lv2), Sorcerer 4/2(optional 4/3), Wizard 4/3
Lv4 - Warlock 6(Lv2), Sorcerer 4/3(optional 4/4), Wizard 4/4

So it looks like Warlock is tied with Wizard at level 1
Strictly better than everything by a large margin at level 2
Strictly better than everything at level 3, at worst they have 1 less Lv1 cast in exchange for 3 additional Lv2 casts
Arguably equal at level 4, at worst they have 2 less Lv1 casts, in exchange for 2 additional Lv2 casts.

So...
Warlocks are basically just better at lower levels.

I can't speak for everyone else of course but the 2 short per 1 long one with many encounters during a day is something I see rarely. Say you have 2 or 3 encounters in a day, entirely reasonable depending on the situation, that's 2 levelled spells for 2 or 3 fights. That can hurt, I've played wizards and warlocks and I always felt more able to be free with spells as a wizard.

Throw in Arcane Recovery and the wizard is much less reliant on cantrips.

[Talamare]

I can't speak for everyone else of course but the 2 short per 1 long one with many encounters during a day is something I see rarely. Say you have 2 or 3 encounters in a day, entirely reasonable depending on the situation, that's 2 levelled spells for 2 or 3 fights. That can hurt, I've played wizards and warlocks and I always felt more able to be free with spells as a wizard.

Throw in Arcane Recovery and the wizard is much less reliant on cantrips.

I included Arcane Recovery in those numbers, even Included Sorcerer using Sorcery Points to create additional slots.

Warlock has the advantage if you play roughly correct.

If you play wrong, Warlock might be disadvantaged or broken.
If you never have Short Rests, Warlock is garbage
If you have 100 Short Rest per Long Rest, Warlock is BEYOND BROKEN

Dungeon Master's Guide states that it should be 2 Short Rests per Long Rest.
Now I won't say that occasionally having 1 Short Rest per Long Rest and occasionally having 3 Short Rest per Long Rest is wrong.

However if either is your norm, then you are breaking the intended balance of the classes.

[Avonar]

I included Arcane Recovery in those numbers, even Included Sorcerer using Sorcery Points to create additional slots.

Warlock has the advantage if you play roughly correct.

If you play wrong, Warlock might be disadvantaged or broken.
If you never have Short Rests, Warlock is garbage
If you have 100 Short Rest per Long Rest, Warlock is BEYOND BROKEN

Dungeon Master's Guide states that it should be 2 Short Rests per Long Rest.
Now I won't say that occasionally having 1 Short Rest per Long Rest and occasionally having 3 Short Rest per Long Rest is wrong.

However if either is your norm, then you are breaking the intended balance of the classes.

Then apparently my entire group is playing wrong?

Fun part is that the official modules I've played almost never allow for only 2 short rests per long rest and 4+ daily encounters. So...apparently they're going against the rules in their own book?

Often it'll be 2 or 3 in a day with no rests on between or 1 big encounter. That's a problem.

Again I can only speak from personal experience, I don't know how many people follow your model.

And since I enjoy playing my warlock I guess I'm playing just fine, ignoring your definition.

[Dudewithknives]

Then apparently my entire group is playing wrong?

Fun part is that the official modules I've played almost never allow for only 2 short rests per long rest and 4+ daily encounters. So...apparently they're going against the rules in their own book?

Often it'll be 2 or 3 in a day with no rests on between or 1 big encounter. That's a problem.

Again I can only speak from personal experience, I don't know how many people follow your model.

And since I enjoy playing my warlock I guess I'm playing just fine, ignoring your definition.

This is the main issue with Warlock and some other classes but to a much lesser extent.

The classes are designed and balances around the adventure day is supposed to be 4 to 6 encounters, maybe not combat but situations to deal with, and 2 short rests in there somewhere.

However, not a single written adventure or module is written to do that.

They are almost all written to where you can rests almost as needed.

I also have never once seen a home-brew game that had 6 encounters and 2 short rests during the game.

It is usually the 15 min adventuring day 75% of the time, with the other 25% having 1 short rest during the day.
I have NEVER seen an adventuring day have 6 encounters. Most of the time it is 1, or maybe 2 if it is like fighting the grunts and then the bigger fight.
I think once I saw a group have 3 fights between long rests but the casters complained that they did not have any big spells for the last one and let's face it, the entire game is based around caster's resources. Nobody really cares if the barbarian has rages left or if the monk is low on ki points.

[alchahest]

maybe make agonizing blast like the reserve feats from 3.x. "As long as you have at least one pact magic slot available, add your charisma bonus etc etc etc"

[Easy_Lee]

Agonizing EB is a feat tax for most warlocks and is a powerful two-level dip. If you're really concerned about it, you should fix both problems at once. Make Agonizing Blast a class feature that scales with warlock level. That way your warlocks have an extra invocation to take something actually interesting and your sorlocks (if you have any) don't start combining Agonizing EB with Quicken.

In general, I don't think you need to proactively search out and houserule things like this because they may never come up at your table. You have better things to do with your time. Just ask your players at character generation what they're playing.

[KorvinStarmast]

The desire to fix that which isn't broken seems strong.

A comment further up recommended either letting multi classing go, or making an effort at the table (DM and player collaborate) for multi classing to have a strong RP element to it.

Eldritch blast is a good cantrip that, as noted in another post, has multiple invocations that allow the warlock to tailor its effects.
Leave it alone, and address what your actual problem is.

[Solusek]

The main problem I see with every single idea of how to change EB to keep people from dipping 2 levels of warlock and leaving is that it completely cheats the warlock to do it.

Warlock is already the worst class in the game, don't make them even worse.

Leave the invocations alone and just make EB a class ability gained at level 1.

Not a spell at all, a warlock class ability that produces multiple beams as the levels it does now.

Because it is not a spell sorcerer's can't quicken it, and their Sorcerer levels would not scale it.
Bards and Paladins levels will not scale it.
It is a ranged spell attack so martial can't sharpshooter it, or use archery style
It would still be the foundation of the Warlock class without being just bait for better classes to dip for.

Change the invocations to say instead of "when you cast Eldritch Blast" to say "when you use Eldritch Blast"

I really like this solution! Maybe even combined with having "Agonizing Blast" be a class feature that you gain at level 3 or 4 rather than an invocation at all. This would be a buff for single class warlocks (they get an extra free cantrip slot, and an invocation that doesn't have to be wasted on Agonizing), while severely lessening the cheese of a warlock 2 dip.

[Ganymede]

The easy fix is to eliminate the ability to fire multiple beams and lump the damage dice together into a single attack, like all other cantrips.

[Daphne]

Agonizing EB is a feat tax for most warlocks and is a powerful two-level dip. If you're really concerned about it, you should fix both problems at once. Make Agonizing Blast a class feature that scales with warlock level. That way your warlocks have an extra invocation to take something actually interesting and your sorlocks (if you have any) don't start combining Agonizing EB with Quicken.

I agree with Easy_Lee on this one. There's no reason to nerf single-classed Warlocks, and Agonizing Blast is an invocation tax.

Although 99.9% never get to tier 4, I think if EB was a class feature the fourth attack should come online only at level 20, the same level the Fighter gets it.

[sophontteks]

Just don't allow multiclassing and its solved. I personally don't feel that multiclassing was very well fleshed out and those who do it typically do so in order to game something. If its not a warlock dip, its something else. And these dips sure don't add to the RP experience in any way. It just feels as tacked on as the mechanic itself in all but a few circumstances.

The cantrip itself isn't overpowered on its own. If they nab it with a feat, great. Minor illusion can be even more broken to a creative mind. Without the warlock invocations boosting the damage, its not overpowered.

[sithlordnergal]

You know, I have never really gotten the whole issue with Eldritch Blast. I took it once on a Lore Bard and regretted taking it instead of taking one level of Sorcerer to get Fire Bolt and Chill Touch, and using my Magical Secrets for a more useful spell.

Sure, on a Warlock Eldritch Blast is great because of the invocations, but on anyone else? You're basically looking at a Force based Firebolt, with damage you can choose to split between multiple enemies.

[Pex]

How about people MC for an actual RP reason and not for power gaming reasons.

Why can't people do it for both reasons?



Leave it alone, and address what your actual problem is.

A DM hating a player wants a cool thing.

[Oerlaf]

The eldritch blast doesn't need a nerf, IMO.

Without the Agonizing Blast the spell has just the same expected damage as with a fire bolt, but allows spreading the damage

Proof for the 2nd tier.

Let z=AC-tohit be our main variable. We hit if a die roll equals or exceeds z.

The probability of a critical hit is always 1/20, the probability that we hit without critical equals (20-z)/20, since we must have die rolls from z to 19. That leaves us with 1-1/20-(20-z)/20=(z-1)/20 probability of missing a target.

Fire bolt: hit - 2d10 damage, miss - 0 damage. We expect 11 damage in average, so we have the following random variable for z varying from 2 to 20 (if z<2 set z to 2, if z>20 set z to 20).



Probability
(z-1)/20
(20-z)/20
1/20


Value
0
11
22



The average equals (20-z)/20*11+1/20*22=11*(22-z)/20.

Eldritch blast In 2nd tier the eldritch blast produces two beams each of which can hit for 1d10 damage or miss. We can possibly have nine outcomes in this case (m - miss, n - normal hit, c - critical hit).

mm with probability (z-1)^2/400 and 0 for average damage

nn with probability (20-z)^2/400 and 11 for average damage

cc with probability 1/400 and 22 for average damage

mn OR nm with probability (z-1)*(20-z)/400 each and 5.5 for average damage each

mc OR cm with probability (z-1)/400 each and 11 for average damage each

nc OR cn with probability (20-z)/400 each and 16.5 for average damage each.

Therefore, our value for expected damage is as follows:




Probability
(z-1)^2/400
(z-1)*(20-z)/200
((20-z)^2+2(z-1))/400
(20-z)/200
1/400


Value
0
5.5
11
16.5
22



If we find the expected damage, we will know that it is equal to 11*(22-z)/20 - exactly the same damage as fire bolt.

Variance

However, the variances are different if we consider the average damage as constants. Otherwise there are longer computations.

Variance for fire bolt cantrip is 3z/50-z^2/400-1/100, while variance for eldritch blast cantrip without invocation is 3z/100-z^2/800-1/200 - twice as small as for the fire bolt


Hence, for the 2nd tier
the eldritch blast spell without invocations has the same expected damage as a fire bolt spell, AND it has a smaller deviation from the average. That means that the warlock will have average results more often than a wizard with fire bolt.

[Joe dirt]

u could make it to where only warlock levels count toward extra beams, that way a dedicated warlock isn't nerfed but anyone multiclassing is

[Pex]

Or a character can multiclass one level of Divine Soul Sorcerer and take as his Cantrips Fire Bolt, Ray of Frost, Sacred Flame, and Toll The Dead. Firebolt is his go to Cantrip. When fighting a creature resistant to fire use Ray of Frost. If the creature is resistant to both, Sacred Flame or Toll the Dead will do the trick. May not be as devastating as Agonizing Eldritch Blast, but he's only spending one level and can pick up Shield and Absorb Elements. A fair trade. If he's willing to spend a second level as he would have in Warlock, hello Quicken!

[Sicarius Victis]

Or a character can multiclass one level of Divine Soul Sorcerer and take as his Cantrips Fire Bolt, Ray of Frost, Sacred Flame, and Toll The Dead. Firebolt is his go to Cantrip. When fighting a creature resistant to fire use Ray of Frost. If the creature is resistant to both, Sacred Flame or Toll the Dead will do the trick. May not be as devastating as Agonizing Eldritch Blast, but he's only spending one level and can pick up Shield and Absorb Elements. A fair trade. If he's willing to spend a second level as he would have in Warlock, hello Quicken!

Quicken takes 3 Sorc levels, not 2.

[stoutstien]

Just make agonizing blast scale with warlock lvs so only add +Cha if you stay warlock. As for the other warlock fotm cheese
Devil sight- doesn't stop aoe attacks and darkness means no hex ect.
Hexblade- Cha to attack and damge with weapons...so yea might help bard who want to gish it up but hardly game breaking.
Miss anything?

[Pex]

Quicken takes 3 Sorc levels, not 2.

So it is. Silly me.

A one level Divine Sorcerer dip is still worth it for those who would have dipped into Warlock but don't appreciate an Eldtrich Blast nerf. Even a Dragon Sorcerer is ok to minimize hit point loss, some AC when not wearing armor such as being woken up while sleeping for a fight, with Chill Touch and Acid Splash to complement Fire Bolt and Ray of Frost.