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GrayDeath
2018-01-08, 08:49 PM
Preface: I know that there are many many ways to paly a better" Paladin while using other classes, foremost CLeric Variants. That is not the point (aside from the fact that for me a Paladin should not have the full amount of spellcasting power of a cleric).

The Paladin Class is a classic. A true centerpiece of D&D.
But it is also, even with pathfinders improvements, to weak for what it aims to be: A true Champion of Good and Law.

This is where my remodeled Version comes in. I aim for a higher Power Paladin, that all the while does NOT manage to go beyond T3, or become TOO flexible. Just not as ... shall we say sub-optimum as the original.
As with all my CLasses, this is intended for full 3.p Play.
If only using 3.5 rules, changing the available Martial Disciplines and reducing the SKillpts/Level are likely enough to adapt the class.


All Feedback aiding this goal is very welcome.





The Paladin:


Paladin Orders: No matter if they follow a God or not, all paladins instinctively search for and join one of the following three Paladin orders. It simply is in their nature to be accompanied by likeminded people.

All Three Orders are Lawful Good and have had a hand in fightint Evil across the World. Merely their specific oaths and the virtues they value most vary.

All three follow the basic paladins code, which is:


1.: I will protect those that cannot protect themselves, even if I should not like them (only applies to nonEvil beings, of course).

2.: I will fight Evil in all its forms, from the most vile and destructive to the most subtle and seductive (meaning real E evil first, then major e evil, and only then small time evil).

3.: I will spread Good with all my power, wherever I go (being mercyful, helpful, furtthering the cause of good, and generally not being an *******)

4.: I will only speak the truth (meaning he cannot lie, but easily simply say nothing, as long as doing so is not evil, Attention, if chosen as Prime Code, a stricter ruling is applied!).

In addition to these “fixed” Codes and being Lawful Good Paladins dont HAVE to follow other rules, but most hold themselves to even higher standards, including but not limited to religious, Chivalrous or Noble Codes.
The Player and the DM should clarify these before the Game begins.

Many Paladins choose one of the above Tenets as ther Prime Code.

A prime Code has the following effects:

Any attempt of others to make the Paladin act against his Prime Code automatically fails. This includes direct Actions of Gods, Epic Spellcasters and similar Greater Beings.

Whenever actively pursuing his prime Code, the Paladin gains his Level in Paladin/4 to all Rolls.

If he ever willingly violates his prime Code, he automatically falls and the eventual Atonement will be quite hard.


Players of Paladins may, together with their DM, add up to 4 additional Codes that do not directly violate either being Lawful Good nor the 4 Codes above, to their Paladins Code of Conduct.
For each additional Code added, the Paladin gains one Bonus Feat of his choice (the first for the first additional Code is gained at Level 2, the second at Level 5, a third at Level 8 and a fourth at Level 11). For these Bonus Feats all Fighter Bonus Feats and, if utilized (see below) any Exalted BOnus Feat where the Paladin fulfills all requirements are available Choices.



1.: Order of the Pure Soul: The oldest of the Three. Paladins of this order are referred to as “Blessed”. Their primary virtue is absolute adherence to purity. This includes their paladins swearing oaths of chastity until and unless they find their one true love, and marry him/her.

Limitations: Oath of Chastity. In Addition Cannot imbibe Alcohol or other Drugs willingly.

Bonuses: At Levels 3, 7, 13 and 20, gain +1 to all Saves.
At Level 15 beomes immune to Attribute Damage and Level Drain.
At Level 20 becomes immune to Instant Death Effects and Mind Affecting Effects.



2.: Order of the Divine Mission: The Paladin order that always has a connection to either a particular God or Church. Unlike all other Orders, they often fulfill direct divine Mandates, and hence their Prime Virtue is Obedience.


Limitations: Must follow a Lawful good or neutral Good God and obey their orders, unless they would be countering the Paladin Code.


Bonuses: At Levels 5, 10, 15 and 20 gain one additional Spell known from the normally allowed lists.



3,; Order of the Sacred Blade: The most martial, and youngest of the three. Their prime Virtue is Courage.

Limitations: Can never refuse an honorable Fight or flee while allies are still engaged.


Bonuses: Gain Weapon Focues for three Weapons at Level 3, Weapon Specialization at Level 6, greater Weapon Focus at Level 10 and greater Weapon Specialization at Level 14.
In Addition, if they are not wielding a Magical Weapon that grants it any way, weapons they wield are considered Good and Law Aligned.

Additionally all Weapons wielded AND possessed by the Paladin have their hardness increased by 10pts and disarming him is at +3+Level/2 Difficulty.



Falling:

As this is the most debated and least well defined part of the original class, I intend to be really clear here:

A Paladin ONLY autmatically falls in one of the following 3 cases. (This does not mean he cannot fall otherwise, just that Player and DM must determine if he does, ideally beforehand).

1.: By Knowingly and willingly committing an Evil act of significant magnitude (this means either one that affects many other poeple, or a really big one that only affects one person, this should never be in question, as it requires something momentous) for which there was (even if only remote) an alternative.


2.: By being neither Lawful nor Good any longer


3.: By, in one action, acting against 2 or more (or if he has a Prime Code against that one) tenets of the Code.


Paladins that cease to bei either Lawful OR Good can no longer advance in paladin until they have atoned/regained the needed alignment, but do not lose their Paladin Abilities.
(Possible Exception see below).




ThePaladin


Level
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Special


1st

+1

+2

+2

+2
Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite Evil (1/day), Paladin Body


2nd

+2

+3

+3

+3
Divine Blessing 1, Divine Grace, lay on hands


3rd

+3

+3

+3

+3
Aura of Courage, Divine Health, Mercy


4th

+4

+4

+4

+4
Channel Positive Energy, Smite Evil 2(/Day), Paladins Stand



5th

+5

+4

+4

+4
Divine Blessing 2, Divine Bond


6th

+6/+1

+5

+5

+5
Mercy, Turn undead



7th

+7/+2

+5

+5

+5
Smite Evil 3/Day


8th

+8/+3

+6

+6

+6
Divine Blessing 3, Aura of Resolve


9th

+9/+4

+6

+6

+6
Mercy


10th

+10/+5

+7

+7

+7
Smite Evil (4/Day), Divine Ally


11th

+11/+6/+1

+7

+7

+7
Divine Blessing 4, Aura of Justice


12th

+12/+7/+2

+8

+8

+8
Mercy


13th

+13/+8/+3

+8

+8

+8
Smite Evil 5/Day


14th

+14/+9/+4

+9

+9

+9
Divine Blessing 5, Aura of Faith


15th

+15/+10/+5

+9

+9

+9
Mercy


16th

+16/+11/+6/+1

+10

+10

+10
Smite Evil 6/Day


17th

+17/+12/+7/+2

+10

+10

+10
Aura of Rigthousness, Divine Blessing 6


18th

+18/+13/+8/+3

+11

+11

+11
Mercy


19th

+19/+14/+9/+4

11

+11

+11
Smite Evil 7/Day


20th

+20/+15/+10/+5

+12

+12

+12
Holy Champion, Divine Blessing 7



Hitdie: D10

Skillpts/Level: 4+ Intelligence Modifier

CLass Skills: Craft (Weapons or Armor), Diplomacy, Handle Animal, heal, Knowldege (Religion and Nobility), Perception, Profession, Ride, Sense Motive.

Armor and Weapon proficiencies: All Armors, all Simple and Martial Weapons, Shields but not Tower Shields, any 3 Exotic Weapons.

Alignment: Lawful Good
At the DM`s Discression a Neutral Good Character that follows all 4 COdes to the Letter may also be a Paladin, if this fits with the Game World.

At Character Creation, choose one of the following Archetypes:

Saecular: A Paladin not bound to a particular Faith, or simply less mystical/Divinely inspired. YOu gain Initiating as seen below.

Divine: A more faithful, mystical or God Aligned Paladin. Gains better Spellcasting.

Attention: Only the Saecular Paladin Gains Initiating!

Initiating: A Saecular Paladin begins Play with 3 Maneuvers known, and 2 Maneuvers readied, as well as one Stance known.

He gains another Maneuver at Levels 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18 and 20.
He May exchange a Maneuver he knows for a new one (of the same school, prereqs. Need to be observed) at Levels 5, 10, 15 and 20.
He gains another Readied Slot at Levels 5, 11 and 17.
He gains another Stance at Levels 4, 8, 12, 16 and 20.

Available martial Disciplines are: Silver Craner, Diamond Mind, Devoted Spirit and depending on the Order (in Order of Age(Mentiona bove) either Riven Hourglass, Elemental Flux or Crimson Throne,.

Attention!

Spellcasting: Paladins are Spontaneous Spellcasters with a limited number of Spells known and per day, as shown in the tables below.

Edit: Their Spellcasting Stats are the same as for the regular Paladin, this includes bonus spells/Day and, due to being spontaneous casters, Spells known.


They can choose their Spells from the Paladin Spell List.
If the Paladin is a Divine Paladin, they can also choose from the Wizard List (only for Abjuration Spells and only up to one Spell per Level they know) and the Cleric List (only for Level 5 Spells).

Spell Tables below are for the Divine Version, for the Saecular Paladin, remove one SPell/Day/Known from all offered Spells, and stop the Spell progression at Level 4!



The Paladin – Spells known:
================================================== =
Level 1 2 3 4 5
================================================== =
1 1 - - - -
2 2 - - - -
3 3 - - - -
4 3 1 - - -
5 3 2 - - -
6 4 3 - - -
7 4 3 1 - -
8 4 3 2 - -
9 5 4 2 - -
10 5 4 3 - -
11 6 4 4 1 -
12 6 5 4 2 -
13 6 5 4 3 -
14 6 5 4 3 -
15 6 5 4 3 1
16 6 5 4 3 2
17 6 6 5 4 2
18 6 6 5 5 3
19 6 6 5 5 3
20 6 6 5 5 4





The Paladin – Spells per Day
================================================== =
Level 1 2 3 4 5
================================================== =
1 2 - - - -
2 3 - - - -
3 4 - - - -
4 4 2 - - -
5 5 3 - - -
6 6 4 - - -
7 6 4 2 - -
8 6 5 3 - -
9 7 6 3 - -
10 7 7 4 - -
11 7 7 5 2 -
12 7 7 5 3 -
13 7 7 6 4 -
14 7 7 6 4 -
15 7 7 6 5 2
16 7 7 6 6 3
17 7 7 6 6 4
18 7 7 6 6 5
19 7 7 6 6 6
20 7 7 7 6 6



Paladin Special Abilities:

Abilities not mentioend here function exactly as their Pathfinder Equivalents.

Paladin Body: At first Level, and every three Levels thereafter, a Paladin gains 10pts to one Energy Resistance of his choice. This can stack up to twice.

Divine Blessing: The paladin is changed by the large amount of pure Good and Lawful Energy always coursing through him. Every time this feat is gained, choose one Attribute. You gain +1 Sacred Bonus to it. This cannot be stacked more often than 4 times on the same attribute.
The 7th Level of Divine Blessing instead adds +1 to three different Attributes or +2 to one!

Paladins Stand: Starting at 4th Level, the Paladin gains the ability to channel a huge amount of the Energies of Good and Law for a short amount of time.
This ability may be used once per week/per adventure, whichever is a longer interval, and can only be used in truly fitting situations.
Examples. The paladin stays back to hold off a superior foe, and to allow his allies to flee. The Paladin does his utter best to vanquish a particularly powerful and nasty Evil at great danger to himself.

In any of these cases, the Paladin gains the follwiong Bonuses for 1 Minute+2 turns per Paladin Level:

DR/- +1/2 paladin Level, Fast Healing 5, +1+ 1/3 Paladin Level (round up) to all his attributes, +1 iterative attack at his second highest attack bonus, Fortification 50%, Freedom of Movement and Immunity to Mind affecting and Instant Death Effects.

After these Bonuses End, the Paladin is exhausted.

Turn Undead: At Level 6 the Paladin gains the Ability to turn undead as a Cleric of his Level in Paladin -1. All other Effects are as normal (unless Feats are taken to augment them of course).

Divine Ally: The Paladins Rightousness has forged a bond with a specific lawful Good outsider of up to the Paladins HD. This outsider is considered a close personal ally of the Paladin. The paladin can call for his ally once per day. If called in a dire situation, the Ally will always come. If called outside of such a situation, the paladin can explain why he would like the help of his ally, but usually he will come. While on the material plane, the paladins ally will do everything in his power to support the Paladins actions, as long as he is following his code and acting lawful Good.
Since the Ally is a single, specific outsider, if it is killed or somehow held captive semipermanently (say bound into an artifact), this ability does not work any longer.
Also, this is a two way street. if the ALLY is ever in real danger, he can also ask the Paladin for help, which, being a Paladin, he will provide if possible.
In the case of death beyond short term reformation, the Paladin may attempt to forge a Bond with another fitting outsider, but he may only do so once per level, the rate of success is at best 50%, and for every time this has happened, the success rate is lowered by 10%, down to a minimum of 10%.

Holy Champion The paladin is the very Epitome of a Force for Good and Law. He gains both the Good and Law Subtypes and counts either as his Race or an Outsider (whatever is more beneficial for him) at any time. He also gains DR 15/Evil OR Chaos (determined once and for all) and considers all creatures with that Subtype as Favoured Enemies (counting his Ranger Level as 20 for that purpose). In Addition, all Lawful Good Outsiders value him highly and start off at least at Friendly when meeting him.
If he uses Paladins Stand, he cannot die due to any means until the duration is over, however he must pass a save vs. the amount of hp he was in the negatives while it was running after it ends, or die instantly.



Optional Rules:

1.: Variant Alignment: At the DM`s Discretion a Paladin may also be of Neutral Good Alignment (if that Rule is used, the Paladin cannot chose a Prime Code or additional Paladin Codes, but is considered a Paladin while being either Lawful or Neutral Good!).


2.: Exalted Paladins: If the Exalted Feats from BoED are used in your game, Paladins that qualify for them may choose them as Bonus Feats gained froma dditional Codes.
For this Purpose please clarify with the DM which Exalted feats he deems usable, and if encessary adapt them to the campaign (recommended!).
The most often used Exalted Feats of a Paladin are:
Celestial Mount, Exalted Smite, Gift of Discernment, and Gift of Grace .

King of Nowhere
2018-01-11, 03:00 PM
I like the idea, and I was considering similar ideas myself.

But your rework seems really too powerful. +2 to a stat of a choice every three levels, stacking with everything else? all good saving throws, and they still get the CHA bonus to saving throws? Paladin's stand? lots of spells, some of them actually useful?

Also, your thread is marked as 3.x, but your reference about battle stances and manuevers make me think of pathinder. Maybe in pathfinder classes are more powerful, which woould explain why your guy seems so strong. Granted, this paladin still would likely be tier 3, because I've never seen anything past that tier without good spellcasting, but it's strong tier 3. And with spells upwards to level 5 may even actually reach lower tier 2

jqavins
2018-01-11, 04:21 PM
Regarding the paladin code and orders, I'm struck by a couple of things. First, strict adherence to these rules is what leads to the paladin's reputation for acting stupid. So just how strict is expected? From the code item 4, for example, do you really mean that a paladin can never play a bluff, either when it is a useful tactic against a BBEG or when it is socially expected in a poker game?

Second, apart from the existence of the code and the orders' rules themselves, there's nothing really Lawful in them. Neutral Good characters could very naturally live by the same principals, and chaotic goods could manage it as well, if they are willing to live by any code at all. The Order of the Divine Mission even allows for following a neutral good deity. So why the heck can't paladins be neutral good, or maybe even chaotic good? So the class prereqs could include "Alignment: Any good (rarely chaotic)"

GrayDeath
2018-01-11, 04:47 PM
I like the idea, and I was considering similar ideas myself.

But your rework seems really too powerful. +2 to a stat of a choice every three levels, stacking with everything else? all good saving throws, and they still get the CHA bonus to saving throws? Paladin's stand? lots of spells, some of them actually useful?

Also, your thread is marked as 3.x, but your reference about battle stances and manuevers make me think of pathinder. Maybe in pathfinder classes are more powerful, which woould explain why your guy seems so strong. Granted, this paladin still would likely be tier 3, because I've never seen anything past that tier without good spellcasting, but it's strong tier 3. And with spells upwards to level 5 may even actually reach lower tier 2


It is marked 3.x because there is no 3.p Option in the Threads here....

THe above is based on the already better Pathfinder Paladin. Yes, it is quite a bit stronger, intentionally so.
The original paladin was, outside of some cheesy class mix Optimization, horrible to mediocre at its role, which for a class with that many restrictions, is not good enough (no pun intended). Overall pathfinder updated all classes with more actual class features, and I`d say that my Paladin is about 20-30% stronger purely mechanically, than the original
The Attribute Bonuses are there to avoid being bad due to being MAD, as I did not want to reduce more if what he does to Charisma. If you have a better way of achieving this, I am all ears!

Aside from that, I want a Paladin Player to say "The Champion of GOod and Law feels powerful", that and achieving its original aim are more important to me than actually balancing him in comparison to other Medicasters. :)

As for reaching Tier 2: Nope. he is FAR from it. A well optimized Bard still has better casting, and doe snot reach Tier 2 without Supreme CHord and similar. :)



Regarding the paladin code and orders, I'm struck by a couple of things. First, strict adherence to these rules is what leads to the paladin's reputation for acting stupid. So just how strict is expected? From the code item 4, for example, do you really mean that a paladin can never play a bluff, either when it is a useful tactic against a BBEG or when it is socially expected in a poker game?

Second, apart from the existence of the code and the orders' rules themselves, there's nothing really Lawful in them. Neutral Good characters could very naturally live by the same principals, and chaotic goods could manage it as well, if they are willing to live by any code at all. The Order of the Divine Mission even allows for following a neutral good deity. So why the heck can't paladins be neutral good, or maybe even chaotic good? So the class prereqs could include "Alignment: Any good (rarely chaotic)"


That code especially is literal. He is not allowed to speak a lie.
Can he avoid mentioning facts? Yes. After all, if his memory was not absolute, he would fall almost automatically in any normal conversation otherwise ^^
Can he (grudgingly) ignore it when others lie? He can. Though he`ll likely talk to tham about it afterwards.
Can he use Tactics? of course, as long as he does not intentionally state something wrong. It is normal to do so inw ar to get a better position.

All of this becomes more problematic if he chooses this one as his Prime Code of course, but in that case it is intentional.

THe Codes are much much more "personal action direction" than the original. However, if you find real problems, please mention them, this class is not set in Stone (yet).



As for not per se being Lawful: They have a Code that they VERY strictly adhere to. Thats the minimum requirement for being lawful.
Now most Paladins, as mentioned, also follow other Principles/Codes, its just not mandatory any longer.
Also, following Neutral Good Deities is ALWAYS possible for paladins. As are Lawful neutral ones. Just saying. :)

So yeah, if you interpreted the abovementioned Codes as guidelines (which they are not), then any nonchaotic Good Guy could be a Paladin.
Heck, I added a At the DM`s discression Neutral Good People that follow the Code can also be Paladins" line.


Thank you both for the feedback!

Morphic tide
2018-01-12, 04:06 AM
Aside from that, I want a Paladin Player to say "The Champion of GOod and Law feels powerful", that and achieving its original aim are more important to me than actually balancing him in comparison to other Medicasters. :)
Reducing optimization needs to be moderately competent (though there's ways to be a Paladin able to easily match a Crusader (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?445134) it involves a lot of splat diving) is a good thing,


As for reaching Tier 2: Nope. he is FAR from it. A well optimized Bard still has better casting, and doe snot reach Tier 2 without Supreme CHord and similar. :)
To be fair, Tier Two is defined by having access to the game-breaking, but not all the game-breaking. Sorcerers are t2 because they don't have in-class theoretical access to their entire spell list, but the spell list offers every needed tool. Realistically, there's very few ways to actually play a Wizard that Sorcerers can't equal with the same tricks. And the tricks for Sorcerers to factually have access to every spell on their list is a hell of a lot less crazy than the trick for Wizards to do so, involving nothing more than a single Psionic power being usable at-will. They're still hugely ridiculous with just a 1/day use item of it, as they can use their best guess about what's needed and instantly alter the majority of their build if it turns out wrong. Wizards aren't as crazy with it, because their spell access is, by RAW, character-external. It's on an item, not on the character, so the psionic power can't actually pull a major spell access swap. It can be used to get arbitrary spell access by switching feats, but this actually does not alter prepared spells, so they still have to prepare the spells their book now has.


That code especially is literal. He is not allowed to speak a lie.
Can he avoid mentioning facts? Yes. After all, if his memory was not absolute, he would fall almost automatically in any normal conversation otherwise ^^
Can he (grudgingly) ignore it when others lie? He can. Though he`ll likely talk to tham about it afterwards.
Can he use Tactics? of course, as long as he does not intentionally state something wrong. It is normal to do so inw ar to get a better position.

All of this becomes more problematic if he chooses this one as his Prime Code of course, but in that case it is intentional.
"Not telling lies" as an oath, then permitting deceit by omission of fact? How very... compromising of you...

And now I'm thinking about fixing the mess of Exalted feats by having them directly provide what is needed to uphold their effects to proper mechanical competence. Like Vow of Poverty properly giving access to necessary magic item effects through inbuilt functions, namely scaling stat increases to cover lost magic item bonuses, and Exalted feats then carrying more exotic needs, like flight.

---

To actually critique what has been done, I dislike the way it was handled. The primary reason is a base class of two power sources, with sizable progression of each, which is a thing that never happens first-party. It is frequently prone to large problems, such as having healing spells known being utterly pointless due to Devoted Spirit access. Furthermore, the Oath bonuses do extremely little to alter the way the character plays, with Divine Mission being a no-brainer for optimization because of added Known Spells from such powerful lists. I'd have them be more like Sorcerer Bloodlines, each offering a specific spell each spell level and then abilities to further pin down the playstyle. You could add the Initiating to one such subclass-based option, or even several subclasses with different schools available, but not the base class.

Another thing I consider a problem is retaining uses per day on Smite Evil, because it's always been too few uses to really work out. It's too "swingy," as it can cause you to just butcher something you should hardly scratch, while also having too few uses to work in situations with any significant swarming. The Pathfinder version, which is what this class refers to, has the added problem of stacking with Maneuvers on the target for the entire fight on a Swift Action, which are intended to function in the same role. It bolsters the reliability of landing a hit to well past what it should be for the character's level and adds a sizable amount of damage to abilities that are already supposed to carry level-appropriate damage.

The flat bonuses scale much too quickly, as well. +2 to an ability score every three levels sends the baseline numbers too high. For comparison's sake, Barbarians cap out at a total of +16 split between two ability scores. This class gets +14, with far more granular scaling, able to be sent to any ability score desired in +2 increments. The cap of +6 does next to nothing, as there's no reason for this Paladin to focus on one ability score at all because they get enough ways to apply various ability scores, and enough incentive to split between them, that you really don't want to stick the full +6 in one score anyways unless the class has every ability scale with Charisma. Speaking of which, you forgot to define what ability scores the class abilities scale with. I'm not instantly certain of Maneuvers, but Spellcasting always has ability scores.

Meanwhile, Paladin's Body gives Energy Resistance 10 at first level of any energy damage type, then get another 10 to any type every three levels. This means that they can have massive damage reduction as needed by the campaign. Facing a plot heavy in just two energy damage types leads to a massive bonus to survivability by cutting large chunks of damage from each instance.

Paladin's Stand essentially reads "Kill the Big Bad, no questions asked" because of the half-level to DR/- and every ability score. And Fast Healing 5, immunity to Mind Effecting and Death effects, an extra attack at highest BAB and Freedom of Movement. For 10+2/level rounds, without reducing anything until it ends. At level six, this adds +6 to attack rolls and +3 damage on attacks (Smite + Strength/Dex), a 1st and a 2nd level spell slot (usually), +18 HP, +3 AC (provided it would not go over max Dex bonus), +18 skill points, +6 to every save (Divine Grace + Con/Dex/Wis) and +3 daily uses of Lay on Hands and a host of other things, just from ability score bonuses. Oh, and usually doubling move speed because why the hell not charge 120 ft.

In general, you took the already-borderline-if-not-actually t3 Pathfinder Paladin and gave virtually nothing but upgrades. Large ones, at that, by giving Cleric list spells, which house horrifically overkill buffs designed to let Clerics smash face as well as a Barbarian and some damn good utilities, and Wizard Abjurations at one per spell level. This only dodges t2 by lacking the higher-level spells needed to snap the game in half, but no worries, just summon an Outsider with better casting because you can summon an arbitrary Outsider with HD up to Paladin level.

GrayDeath
2018-01-12, 10:13 AM
Reducing optimization needs to be moderately competent (though there's ways to be a Paladin able to easily match a Crusader (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?445134) it involves a lot of splat diving) is a good thing,


Which is why I did it. I`ll get to the other points further down, but am glad you at least agree on principal.




To be fair, Tier Two is defined by having access to the game-breaking, but not all the game-breaking. Sorcerers are t2 because they don't have in-class theoretical access to their entire spell list, but the spell list offers every needed tool. Realistically, there's very few ways to actually play a Wizard that Sorcerers can't equal with the same tricks. And the tricks for Sorcerers to factually have access to every spell on their list is a hell of a lot less crazy than the trick for Wizards to do so, involving nothing more than a single Psionic power being usable at-will. They're still hugely ridiculous with just a 1/day use item of it, as they can use their best guess about what's needed and instantly alter the majority of their build if it turns out wrong. Wizards aren't as crazy with it, because their spell access is, by RAW, character-external. It's on an item, not on the character, so the psionic power can't actually pull a major spell access swap. It can be used to get arbitrary spell access by switching feats, but this actually does not alter prepared spells, so they still have to prepare the spells their book now has.


True.

Still, this class only has very very limited access to lists other than the paladin (only for Level 5 Spells, and not many at that). So Is ee no real problem with reaching Tier . Ever.
Unless of course one does a lot of multiclass optimization (can you say Sorcadin^^).





"Not telling lies" as an oath, then permitting deceit by omission of fact? How very... compromising of you...


Nope.
Its a literal Code. Intentionally so.

Reasonings: First and foremost, if that code was taken with a more all-encompassing interpretation, it would, as seen in the example above, make the Paladin totally unlayable. As you can never state ALL the facts you know and still be done within less than a few hours. Or fall if you overlook a minor detail.


Speaking only the truth, or if you`d like I could reformulate it as SPeak no Lie" says EXACTLY that. And nothing more.
THe wishiywashy interpretable Paladins Codes are the main source of discontent and "But all paladins fall stuff in every Game.

Now am I saying that a Paladin that chooses this as his PRIME Code would see it as "tightly focussed"? No.
But one who does, does so knowingly (and his player and the DM clarify that beforehand).

Is it a perfect way to deal with it? No.
But it is both easier to udnerstand, paly and truly ADHERE to than any "regular" Paladin Code. Also, please rmemeber, this is only one of 4 Codes. :)






And now I'm thinking about fixing the mess of Exalted feats by having them directly provide what is needed to uphold their effects to proper mechanical competence. Like Vow of Poverty properly giving access to necessary magic item effects through inbuilt functions, namely scaling stat increases to cover lost magic item bonuses, and Exalted feats then carrying more exotic needs, like flight.



Exalted Feats should do that. They are Mechanics that deny you access to a lot of stuff, and should reward you accordingly.
Sadly they do not, but then again, the BoED and the BoVD are .... debateable books at the very least any way.


To sum it up: I made a clear, concise, strict 4 point code that every Paladin HAS to follow.
And added that most follow even more strict/more encompassing COdes.

Because this way a Paladin is actually playable even if the DM and the Player do not perfectly see everything thee same way.

Again, not perfect, but playable and powerful.





To actually critique what has been done, I dislike the way it was handled. The primary reason is a base class of two power sources, with sizable progression of each, which is a thing that never happens first-party. It is frequently prone to large problems, such as having healing spells known being utterly pointless due to Devoted Spirit access. Furthermore, the Oath bonuses do extremely little to alter the way the character plays, with Divine Mission being a no-brainer for optimization because of added Known Spells from such powerful lists. I'd have them be more like Sorcerer Bloodlines, each offering a specific spell each spell level and then abilities to further pin down the playstyle. You could add the Initiating to one such subclass-based option, or even several subclasses with different schools available, but not the base class.



Healing Sels for paladins are pointless anyway, due to Lay on Hands. I dont see how access to Devoted Spirit, which takes a while to be able to heal others, worsens that problem.

Divine Mission adds 4 Spells known, 3 of them from the Paladin List or Abjuration SPells from the Wizard/Sorcerer List. Only one of them, the one fittingly gained at Level 20, gives them access to any one Level 5 Spell from the Cleric List.
Its still much less powerful than a Cleric, Sorcerer, or even Bard (with a little wiggling) has Access to.

But I see your point regarding the addition of Initiating from the Get Go without losing access to other goodies.

How about this: They choose if they get the improved Spell Access (going up to L5, up to one Abjuration Spell of the Wizard List for each Level) and instead gain Initiating as seen above?

Lets call the Option the Divine and the Saecular Paladin?







Another thing I consider a problem is retaining uses per day on Smite Evil, because it's always been too few uses to really work out. It's too "swingy," as it can cause you to just butcher something you should hardly scratch, while also having too few uses to work in situations with any significant swarming. The Pathfinder version, which is what this class refers to, has the added problem of stacking with Maneuvers on the target for the entire fight on a Swift Action, which are intended to function in the same role. It bolsters the reliability of landing a hit to well past what it should be for the character's level and adds a sizable amount of damage to abilities that are already supposed to carry level-appropriate damage.
[(QUOTE]

Care to clarify that paragraph a little?

On one hand you mourn that I did not make Smites at Will or per encounter, on the other I get the impression you consider them too powerful if added to an initiator (given the Crusader Exists this is strange?).



[QUOTE=Morphic tide;22745914]
The flat bonuses scale much too quickly, as well. +2 to an ability score every three levels sends the baseline numbers too high. For comparison's sake, Barbarians cap out at a total of +16 split between two ability scores. This class gets +14, with far more granular scaling, able to be sent to any ability score desired in +2 increments. The cap of +6 does next to nothing, as there's no reason for this Paladin to focus on one ability score at all because they get enough ways to apply various ability scores, and enough incentive to split between them, that you really don't want to stick the full +6 in one score anyways unless the class has every ability scale with Charisma. Speaking of which, you forgot to define what ability scores the class abilities scale with. I'm not instantly certain of Maneuvers, but Spellcasting always has ability scores.



Overlooked it.

The Paladins Spellcasting remains as in the original, Charisma and Wisdom Based.

I think you are both right and wrong here, I`ll widen the interval of getting the +2`s, but will keep them.

A Paladin is MAD as hell, that is why he gets them. And he`ll still need to reach the 3rd or 4th + to strike even in his needed Attribute heights with said barbarian or other MArtial. THat is why he gets them.





Meanwhile, Paladin's Body gives Energy Resistance 10 at first level of any energy damage type, then get another 10 to any type every three levels. This means that they can have massive damage reduction as needed by the campaign. Facing a plot heavy in just two energy damage types leads to a massive bonus to survivability by cutting large chunks of damage from each instance.



I think you misread. Any ONE Energy Type. Until the Paladin has a reliable damage reductiona gainst energy types he needs 10 instances of this ability, which he never reaches.

Does it help him survive? Yep.
Does gfiving it at first level make one Energy Type rather useless against him early game? Indeed.
But other CLasses can get that almost as soon, and casters can switch the elements they esist as eneded. The Paladin cannot. he merele requires enemies to adapt their SPells, or is very good at slaying dragons. Meaning it fits the fluff, and while strong is not TOO strong.





Paladin's Stand essentially reads "Kill the Big Bad, no questions asked" because of the half-level to DR/- and every ability score. And Fast Healing 5, immunity to Mind Effecting and Death effects, an extra attack at highest BAB and Freedom of Movement. For 10+2/level rounds, without reducing anything until it ends. At level six, this adds +6 to attack rolls and +3 damage on attacks (Smite + Strength/Dex), a 1st and a 2nd level spell slot (usually), +18 HP, +3 AC (provided it would not go over max Dex bonus), +18 skill points, +6 to every save (Divine Grace + Con/Dex/Wis) and +3 daily uses of Lay on Hands and a host of other things, just from ability score bonuses. Oh, and usually doubling move speed because why the hell not charge 120 ft.


I will modify the movement Speed, as youa re correct, the increased charge range did not instantly occur to me.

The other bonuses....well yes. They are incredibly good.

BUT: Read the limitations. Once per week or adventure. Only in FITTING situations.
Usually this means to avoid certaind eath, save those you care about, or yes, slay the Dragon.

If a Caster expends 4-6 of his spells, he gets a better effect.
EVERY SINGLE DAY HE WANTS TO.

Dont get fooled by the high numbers. Yes, they help. No they dont overpower everything. :)





In general, you took the already-borderline-if-not-actually t3 Pathfinder Paladin and gave virtually nothing but upgrades. Large ones, at that, by giving Cleric list spells, which house horrifically overkill buffs designed to let Clerics smash face as well as a Barbarian and some damn good utilities, and Wizard Abjurations at one per spell level. This only dodges t2 by lacking the higher-level spells needed to snap the game in half, but no worries, just summon an Outsider with better casting because you can summon an arbitrary Outsider with HD up to Paladin level.


Again, you misread things.

They only get access to Cleric Spells late, only a limited number of them, and their Sorcerer/WIzard access is ALSO limited (to one spell per level).

And yes, they fly short of T2.

As for the Ally, I clarified some things. Also, this is not a "random outsider with HD up to the Paladins but a single, very specific one, who might die semipermanently, hence loosing the Paladin the benefits.

So far,a side from some minor adjustments, nothing yous aid lets me think they are too powerful.

And even if your tone of writing was more than a little bit harsha t times, thank you for your feedback!

GrayDeath
2018-03-02, 10:21 AM
After some testing (good points/feedback above, thx again!) redid a few things.

The OP was edited accordingly, and I am quite sure the Paladin Rework "works within its wanted parameters now. :)

nonsi
2018-03-03, 02:08 AM
.
Ref saves column has errors at levels 11 and 20.

Also, you might wanna bold the things in the table that were added or modified compared to the PF Paladin.

GrayDeath
2018-03-04, 07:37 AM
Done and done.

Thx for catching that.