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Barna13
2018-01-18, 06:36 PM
My goals with this remake: I love healers. I know they're not optimal, but there's a sick power fantasy of holding your ally's life in your fingertips, knowing that you alone hold their life in your hands like a Machiavellian puppet master, and that your scorn could lead to their brutal demise! What was I talking about? Right, healers, I like healers. Which is why the healer class(from miniatures handbook) makes me so angry. Clerics are better at healing than they are(should they choose to go down that route), and also get all the other stuff that make clerics awesome. I wanted to remake healer to both be the best class at healing(which really should have been a no-brainier), while also keeping them viable through all levels.

With that said, here's my attempt to redo the healer class: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UMlxLUGyWLD02tdpk522kK3E3WyHjnzANEUDFrhtJ_w/edit?usp=sharing

All commentary is welcome, good and bad.

Kamai
2018-01-19, 01:28 PM
I would need some time later for my full thoughts, but for a character that has a vow of pacifism, the healer has very few ways on their native spell list to stop fights. There may be some things that sanctified spells allow, but I admit that I don't know much about them.

Barna13
2018-01-19, 03:28 PM
I would need some time later for my full thoughts, but for a character that has a vow of pacifism, the healer has very few ways on their native spell list to stop fights. There may be some things that sanctified spells allow, but I admit that I don't know much about them.

Correct, but in my opinion a healer shouldn't have spells that directly impede the enemy. The only way they have to stop an enemy is to talk their way out of a situation(They're a CHA based character with diplomacy as a class skill).

nonsi
2018-01-19, 03:40 PM
.
Your fix seems better than the official Healer, but it's not enough in my view.

1. Use Pathfinder's version of the Heal skill. It's by far superior to the 3.5e version. You might also wanna consider adding my suggestions regarding Heal (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18777390&postcount=7) as well (see "Modified Skills" spoiler).
2. My Priest (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18777415&postcount=13) class has a Healer variant. It might also provide some useful stuff that will suit your needs. I believe that my suggested Mercy is superior to Advanced Learning.
3. There's no reason why you couldn't allow all spell levels to culminate at 6 / day.

Barna13
2018-01-19, 04:09 PM
.
Your fix seems better than the official Healer, but it's not enough in my view.

1. Use Pathfinder's version of the Heal skill. It's by far superior to the 3.5e version. You might also wanna consider adding my suggestions regarding Heal as well (see "Modified Skills" spoiler).
2.My Priest class has a Healer variant. It might also provide some useful stuff that will suit your needs. I believe that my suggested Mercy is superior to Advanced Learning.
3. There's no reason why you couldn't allow all spell levels to culminate at 6 / day.

As for 1, they're similar enough that I find it hard to justify making a mention of it, particularly without just saying, "Look at pathfinder". Not to mention the fact that both versions of the skill are almost immediately rendered redundant by any and all magical healing.

As for 2, Mercy probably is probably worse than advanced learning, given the power of some summons. While removing conditions by sacrificing healing is a sort of neat idea, in my opinion it adds too much complexity without adding much functionality or interesting options. After all, the healer's new ability to cast all spells on their list, along with the savior ability, allows them to deal with conditions very effectively.

As for 3, A healer gets gate at 9th level. 6 of that+bonus spells seems a bit excessive.

Deepbluediver
2018-01-19, 07:25 PM
My understanding of the Healer's problems is that it's not just with the hero- in order to make the Healer an attractive class, you'd really have to make some serious design changes to D&D 3.5. Part of it is that a Cleric, even an evil one, can already provide all healing a normal party needs. Unless your group is going all-out balls-to-the-wall suicidally reckless, you don't really need more healing than that. Also, there's no real penalty to walking around at 1 HP; you're just as effective offensively then as you are at full heath. Address those 2 issues and people might start considering the healing again, in large groups that had filled all the other standard roles.


I sure I could spend several more paragraphs ranting about game-design theory, but lets move on to your fix, specifically....

(1) I like the d12. I like things that break from stereotypes, and if there's any caster-class that deserve a stonking great HP pool, the healer was it.

(2) Why Divine casting? 3.5 seemed to have this thing where Arcane caster classes weren't allowed to have healing, but there's not objective reason for it IMO. If you want to make the healer less like a cleric-but-with-fewer-options, then changing them to Arcane casting is a nice start. A Healer can still be spiritual, and might even have gotten their inspiration from a religion, but making the power come from themselves instead of from on-high is a nice split.

(3) I don't like the alignment restrictions; at the very least it should be "non-evil". You can say that most healers are Good-with-a-capital-G, and that's the kind of archetype that is likely to attract certain players, but it also allows for a more mercenary-type of backstory. I.e. you no pay you no get healed.
(3.5) I don't like the "Healer' Oath" either, for similar reasons. It feels more like something a player should decide for themselves. Forcing it the entire class seems like it will lead to a lot of situations where the Healer's player is, for every single fight, taking the option of "I won't hurt you but I'll help my allies stab you, fireball you, and summon shoggoths to gnaw your bollocks off", aka the technically-it-was-the-fall-that-killed-him (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TItECLahsLQ) kind of player that no one likes. It might make sense for roleplaying for an NPC, but for PCs it's restrictive and nonsensical.

(4) They don't need armor. Healers aren't supposed to be a melee combatant anyhow, and if you want him focusing on other people and not himself he has to be at least a little squishy. Otherwise the Healer will turn into a tank and Paladin is officially dead as anything useful whatsoever.

(5) Healing Hands- I like the idea, I just feel as if it's overly complicated in execution. Since most spells of this type scale already anyway, why not just have it be equal to your Charisma bonus? Leave spell-level out of it entirely. If you're worried about the effect at low levels (honestly I'm not, that's the range where 1-hit kills are the biggest danger) then cap it based on your healer level. That way withing a few levels it will cease to be effective, while discouraging single-level dips.

(6) Turn Undead- I didn't really like this for the same reason I didn't like it on the Cleric: it seems overly specific. There are lots of enemies you will encounter who aren't undead, including lots of "evil" enemies. Maybe that's just me, but I feel like 95% of the time this will just be used to fuel metamagic cheese.

(7) Advanced Learning- I like it, I might even expand it. Give the healer an option to swap out existing spells with stuff from other sourcebooks, or just increase the frequency with which they can learn new spells. The Healer's niche is already pretty restrictive, you can ease up on their spell list a little I think.

(8) Savior- I like this, too. I'm not sure exactly what you included when you meant "condition", but I might throw in something about letting them quicken healing spells as well, in the event of surprise crits.

(9) Residual Healing- I kinda get where you were going with this, but it really should have some sort of hard cap on it, like no more than 100% of your target's max HP (or less). Otherwise a Healer can unload their entire complement of spells on someone before a battle/trap/encounter/whatever, and give them what is effectively several hundred (or more) HP. I don't know exactly how, but I can almost guarantee you someone will find a way to abuse this and/or trivialize every single encounter.

(x) Effortless Healing- formating; needs a space between it and the previous ability

(10) Unicorn Companion- I get that a unicorn is the stereotypical "healer" of magical beasts, but for the sake of player flexibility, I'd expand the selection a little. Something like a Celestial Lion, Celestial Dire Wolf, Celestial Alligator (some cultures associated reptiles with healing properties) etc, can let players add a little individuality to an otherwise fairly standard class.

(11) Purity/Purify (sp?)- I'll be honest, I'm not impressed by this as a mid/high level ability. Eschew materials can be taken at 1st level and used an unlimited number of times per day. Even if you intended it to be able to be used with high-level spells (ex. 5000 gp worth of diamonds), gold is the resource most high-level parties worry about the least, and this isn't likely to ever show up except for the Healer's most expensive spells. I'd have it come into play at a lower level, and instead scale based on a certain GP worth of components it can replace.

(12a) idea for another ability- something to do with curing ability damage/drain/burn. There are a few cheesy PC builds and a few more monsters that avoid the whole HP issue by just going straight for an ability score, either paralyzing or outright killing (if Constitution) their target. This seems like something a healer should be able to deal with.

(12b) idea for another ability- a high level ability, possibly a capstone, could be the ability to bring a recently (as in a few minutes) deceased character back from the dead, without regards to spell-slots, reagents, or time. If you've ever played Overwatch, think Mercy's ultimate, or the Druid's battle-rez from WoW.



Don't like the amount of criticism get you down- I was just trying to be thorough. I congratulate you on trying to improve a class that's otherwise much maligned class. Keep it up.

Barna13
2018-01-19, 10:30 PM
My understanding of the Healer's problems is that it's not just with the hero- in order to make the Healer and attractive class, you'd really have to make some serious design changes to D&D 3.5. Part of it is that a Cleric, even an evil one, can already provide all healing a normal party needs. Unless your group is going all-out balls-to-the-wall suicidally reckless, you don't really need more healing than that. Also, there's no real penalty to walking around at 1 HP; you're just as effective offensively then as you are at full heath. Address those 2 issues and people might start considering the healing again, in large groups that had filled all the other standard roles.


I sure I could spend several more paragraphs ranting about game-design theory, but lets move on to your fix, specifically....

(1) I like the d12. I like things that break from stereotypes, and if there's any caster-class that deserve a stonking great HP pool, the healer was it.

(2) Why Divine casting? 3.5 seemed to have this thing where Arcane caster classes weren't allowed to have healing, but there's not objective reason for it IMO. If you want to make the healer less like a cleric-but-with-fewer-options, then changing them to Arcane casting is a nice start. A Healer can still be spiritual, and might even have gotten their inspiration from a religion, but making the power come from themselves instead of from on-high is a nice split.

(3) I don't like the alignment restrictions; at the very least it should be "non-evil". You can say that most healers are Good-with-a-capital G, and that's the kind of archetype that is likely to attract certain players, but it also allows for a more mercenary-type of backstory. I.e. you no pay you no get healed.
(3.5) I don't like the "Healer' Oath" either, for similar reasons. It feels more like something a player should decide for themselves. Forcing it the entire class seems like it will lead to a lot of situations where the Healer's player is, for every single fight, taking the option of "I won't hurt you but I'll help my allies stab you, fireball you, and summon shoggoths to technically-it-was-the-fall-that-killed-him kind of player that no one likes. It might make sense for roleplaying for an NPC, but for PCs it's restrictive and nonsensical.

(4) They don't need armor. Healers aren't supposed to be a melee combatant anyhow, and if you want him focusing on other people and not himself he has to be at least a little squishy. Otherwise the Healer will turn into a tank and Paladin is officially dead as anything useful whatsoever.

(5) Healing Hands- I like the idea, I just feel as if it's overly complicated in execution. Since most spells of this type scale already anyway, why not just have it be equal to your Charisma bonus? Leave spell-level out of it entirely. If you're worried about the effect at low levels (honestly I'm not, that's the range where 1-hit kills are the biggest danger) then cap it based on your healer level. That way withing a few levels it will cease to be effective, while discouraging single-level dips.

(6) Turn Undead- I didn't really like this for the same reason I didn't like it on the Cleric: it seems overly specific. There are lots of enemies you will encounter who aren't undead, including lots of "evil" enemies. Maybe that's just me, but I feel like 95% of the time this will just be used to fuel metamagic cheese.

(7) Advanced Learning- I like it, I might even expand it. Give the healer an option to swap out existing spells with stuff from other sourcebooks, or just increase the frequency with which they can learn new spells. The Healer's niche is already pretty restrictive, you can ease up on their spell list a little I think.

(8) Savior- I like this, too. I'm not sure exactly what you included when you meant "condition", but I might throw in something about letting them quicken healing spells as well, in the event of surprise crits.

(9) Residual Healing- I kinda get where you were going with this, but it really should have some sort of hard cap on it, like no more than 100% of your target's max HP (or less). Otherwise a Healer can unload their entire complement of spells on someone before a battle/trap/encounter/whatever, and give them what is effectively several hundred (or more) HP. I don't know exactly how, but I can almost guarantee you someone will find a way to abuse this and/or trivialize every single encounter.

(x) Effortless Healing- formating; needs a space between it and the previous ability

(10) Unicorn Companion- I get that a unicorn is the stereotypical "healer" of magical beasts, but for the sake of player flexibility, I'd expand the selection a little. Something like a Celestial Lion, Celestial Dire Wolf, Celestial Alligator (some cultures associated reptiles with healing properties) etc, can let players add a little individuality to an otherwise fairly standard class.

(11) Purity/Purify (sp?)- I'll be honest, I'm not impressed by this as a mid/high level ability. Eschew materials can be taken at 1st level and used an unlimited number of times per day. Even if you intended it to be able to be used with high-level spells (ex. 5000 gp worth of diamonds), gold is the resource most high-level parties worry about the least, and this isn't likely to ever show up except for the Healer's most expensive spells. I'd have it come into play at a lower level, and instead scale based on a certain GP worth of components it can replace.

(12a) idea for another ability- something to do with curing ability damage/drain/burn. There are a few cheesy PC builds and a few more monsters that avoid the whole HP issue by just going straight for an ability score, either paralyzing or outright killing (if Constitution) their target. This seems like something a healer should be able to deal with.

(12b) idea for another ability- a high level ability, possibly a capstone, could be the ability to bring a recently (as in a few minutes) deceased character back from the dead, without regards to spell-slots, reagents, or time. If you've ever played Overwatch, think Mercy's ultimate, or the Druid's battle-rez from WoW.



Don't like the amount of criticism get you down- I was just trying to be thorough. I congratulate you on trying to improve a class that's otherwise much maligned class. Keep it up.

The "healing is bad in 3.5" argument: yes, absolutely. Most combat encounters aren't enough to kill, and out of combat healing is plentiful. For healing to even matter indicates a reasonably low-power campaign, or a brutal one. This sort of problem crops up a lot in tier 4 and 5 classes actually. This healer, or any dedicated healer in 3.5, has no place in an optimized party. Neither do paladins or monks. Such is balance. Status removal is important at all levels though. Might add resurgance/mass resurgence to the healers list to help them with status removal.

2+4: Healers are divine casters because it lets them wear armor. I want healers to wear armor for the same reason I gave them a d12 and shield other, the "Running back to get healed" standard is bad design. The party member shouldn't be penalized by losing a turn just for wanting to stay alive. And you shouldn't have to hide back in the corner because you're to wimpy to get up close. You don't serve as an effective tank because you have no way to force the enemy to engage with you(incidentally why paladins make bad tanks).

3. When making this class, I succumbed to conventional wisdom and forgot one key fact: alignments are dumb. I'll remove that.

3.5: To be clear animals can't harm your enemies with lethal force(or nonlethal if your rogue slits their throats). I think not hurting people is core enough to the healer to constitute a code, like not robbing people as a paladin or torching a forest as a druid.

5: I actually worried about the math, but couldn't find another way that scaled like I wanted it to. The equal to charisma bonus was great at low levels, but almost unnoticeable at mid levels. For instance. For cure light wounds as a level 1 with 18 charisma, the average goes from 5.5 to 9.5, nearly double! Then take cure critical with a charisma of 20. You go from
15 average to 20 average. Not a terrible percentage increase, but a pathetic amount of healing for a level 7 character. In fact in the gulf between cure moderate and heal, basically every healing spell is unplayable bad. This was meant to fix that. For instance, mass cure light heals 1d8+15 to each party member for a total of maybe 3d8+60 in ideal conditions(very rare everyone needs it). That's really bad. With mine, the caster level is boosted by (3◊5=15) for a total of 1d8+24 each, or a total of 3d8+96 in ideal conditions.

6. DMM was actually intended. You have nothing persistable, so the best options are quicken and twin, neither of which is OP since your spell list isn't great.

7. I might add more to advanced learning. I mostly added it to ease through otherwise dead levels and to give a bit of versatility.

8. Condition refers to the condition list of the srd.

9. Remember that only the highest source of temp hp counts, they don't stack, so I don't see this as much of an issue.

X whoops, I'll fix that.

10. I should have included the sidebar of alternate mounts, I'll fix that.

11. Purify is definitely more relevant at the mid levels, where 5000gp is very much still relevant. Then again at high levels healers get gate and summon monster IX and mass heal and full residual healing, so I don't see them lacking there.

12. Good point, I'll add ability restorers to what savior can target.

12b. A full mass revive is an...interesting ability. I'll mull it over, but it's a cool idea.

I really appreciate your criticism. I posted here partly for other people's use, and party so I could get feedback to refine it before I implement it in my own game.

Deepbluediver
2018-01-19, 11:55 PM
2+4: Healers are divine casters because it lets them wear armor. I want healers to wear armor for the same reason I gave them a d12 and shield other, the "Running back to get healed" standard is bad design. The party member shouldn't be penalized by losing a turn just for wanting to stay alive. And you shouldn't have to hide back in the corner because you're to wimpy to get up close. You don't serve as an effective tank because you have no way to force the enemy to engage with you(incidentally why paladins make bad tanks).
You don't have to be a Divine caster to wear armor though- the Warmage from Complete Aracane has an ability called Armored Mage that lets them cast arcane spells in armor. There's also the Battle-Caster (http://dnd.arkalseif.info/feats/complete-arcane--55/battle-caster--183/index.html) feat which improves it. If you really want to make an armored healer, there's precedent for doing it and still giving them aracane magic instead of divine. If you want them to stay as divine casters, fine, but it's not a requirement IMO.

But your other point about range is a good one- rather than putting the healer right in the middle of things though, what about letting him cast from the back row? Add an ability that gives range to all his touch spells (Cure X Wounds, Heal, etc). At level 3 he can cast any touch spell with a range of Short, at level 8 it increases to Medium, and by level 14 it increases to Long range. Problem solved, and it's another way to differentiate him from the Cleric.


3. When making this class, I succumbed to conventional wisdom and forgot one key fact: alignments are dumb. I'll remove that.
Alignments aren't dumb, I just feel like they should enhance or inspire roleplaying, not restrict it.
For example, when I was making a Healer fix, I included an alternate archetype that swapped all the Cure spells for Inflict, the positive energy for negative, the Unicorn for a Nightmare (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Nightmare_(creature)), etc. He can be either a kind of negative-energy blaster, or a the "healer" for the occasional evil party that builds around negative energy (Dread Necromancer et al.) I called it the Necrolyte.


3.5: To be clear animals can't harm your enemies with lethal force(or nonlethal if your rogue slits their throats). I think not hurting people is core enough to the healer to constitute a code, like not robbing people as a paladin or torching a forest as a druid.
How exactly does that work with Gate?


5: I actually worried about the math, but couldn't find another way that scaled like I wanted it to. The equal to charisma bonus was great at low levels, but almost unnoticeable at mid levels. For instance. For cure light wounds as a level 1 with 18 charisma, the average goes from 5.5 to 9.5, nearly double! Then take cure critical with a charisma of 20. You go from 15 average to 20 average. Not a terrible percentage increase, but a pathetic amount of healing for a level 7 character. In fact in the gulf between cure moderate and heal, basically every healing spell is unplayable bad. This was meant to fix that. For instance, mass cure light heals 1d8+15 to each party member for a total of maybe 3d8+60 in ideal conditions(very rare everyone needs it). That's really bad. With mine, the caster level is boosted by (3◊5=15) for a total of 1d8+24 each, or a total of 3d8+96 in ideal conditions.
Since a Healer has no other stats he really worries about, I think you're underestimating how high someone could pump Charisma.

But you're also getting into another one of those "it's not the healer, it's the other mechanics" issues. I'm still not sure I like it, maybe free Maximized (https://dndtools.net/feats/players-handbook-v35--6/maximize-spell--1913/) healing spells would be better, but you're right in that we can think on it more.


6. DMM was actually intended. You have nothing persistable, so the best options are quicken and twin, neither of which is OP since your spell list isn't great.
It's not the DMM that I object to in theory, it's more like the anti-undead part. What about instead something like just a burst of positive energy (AOE circle, centered on the Healer). That gives you more healing, it's still a potent weapon against Undead, it's interesting to have to play around other living enemies with, and you can use charges of that to fuel DMM instead.


9. Remember that only the highest source of temp hp counts, they don't stack, so I don't see this as much of an issue.
I hadn't been thinking of that, no. That does make it more under control, though it still allows the Healer to front-load healing spells onto people before a battle starts.


11. Purify is definitely more relevant at the mid levels, where 5000gp is very much still relevant. Then again at high levels healers get gate and summon monster IX and mass heal and full residual healing, so I don't see them lacking there.
I guess, it just doesn't feel very natural to me.


12b. A full mass revive is an...interesting ability. I'll mull it over, but it's a cool idea.
I was picturing it as single-target, though both that and mass-rez abilities have interesting implications depending on how they are designed.


I kinda want to talk more about game design for healing in 3.5 in general and the Cleric/Healer comparison specifically, but I think that will have to wait until tomorrow. I need sleep.

nonsi
2018-01-20, 12:43 AM
As for 1, they're similar enough that I find it hard to justify making a mention of it, particularly without just saying, "Look at pathfinder". Not to mention the fact that both versions of the skill are almost immediately rendered redundant by any and all magical healing.


Maybe, but if you'd also apply my proposals (and took my proposed "From the Brink of Death" feat), now the difference would be far more evident.




As for 2, Mercy probably is probably worse than advanced learning, given the power of some summons. While removing conditions by sacrificing healing is a sort of neat idea, in my opinion it adds too much complexity without adding much functionality or interesting options. After all, the healer's new ability to cast all spells on their list, along with the savior ability, allows them to deal with conditions very effectively.


Yeah, I just now realize how versatile the [Good] descriptor group of spells is.
Notice that some summon spells would allow you to circumvent Healerís Oath, by having your summoned creatures attack for you w/o restrictions.
Speaking of Healerís Oath, I find it too restrictive. No reason to apply it to constructs, oozes or outsiders with the [Evil] subtype.




As for 3, A healer gets gate at 9th level. 6 of that+bonus spells seems a bit excessive.


Then the problem is with Gate spell. Anyone I've ever talked with about it agree that it's broken. It should never have been about summoning.

ngilop
2018-01-20, 03:46 AM
here are what strikes me as odd, good, or ..what?


in the odd category:
a) 90% of the healer's power and versatility comes in the forms of their spells, You kept the same exact spell list, that means that 90% of the healer is exactly the same

Update the spell list with spells from the spell compendium and spells that help allies ( like heroism, aid, bear's endurance) and some utility spells (like tongues, commune, and fortunate fate)

then slap in some non-leathal offensive spells (like Inhibit, forbiddance, and greater command)

I made a healer re-tool and slapped in anti-undead themed spells as well, if you want to explore that as an option

b) You delay the unicorn until level 8, without changing anything else about it. keep it at 5th

the good:
The savior ability is nice.

the ..what:
D12 Hp.. that makes no sense, i would lower ti to at maximum a d8

what i would change: i would nix what you have for healing hands and instead of what you got, let the healer add cha mod to each dice on healing spells, futher more I would give them Augment Healing as a bonus feat at 2nd level AND give them ways to use the heal skill-what I did with mine was if healer hit the DC she got a free empower on her heals

also I would make the conversion a 1:1 ratio on over healer instead of a 4:1 from the start. Id fill up those levels with like.. some kind of status effect removal.

nonsi
2018-01-20, 04:29 AM
the ..what:
D12 Hp.. that makes no sense, i would lower ti to at maximum a d8


Absolutely. "Healer" =!= "Meat Shield"




also I would make the conversion a 1:1 ratio on over healer instead of a 4:1 from the start. Id fill up those levels with like.. some kind of status effect removal.


That's where I was aiming with my proposed Mercy. A suggestion that was rejected on the account that selection from [Good] spells (which I find problematic) is superior.



And beyond the above, I second your analysis.

Deepbluediver
2018-01-20, 07:30 AM
D12 Hp.. that makes no sense, i would lower it to at maximum a d8
What makes sense will always be somewhat subjective, but I really liked this actually, specifically because it does something that no other class does: gives a caster a large HD. I think I gave my version of the Healer a d10, with the explanation that all the positive energy they are constantly channeling made they really tough and healthy.
In order to avoid the meat-shield issue, I suggested that the OP remove armor, but I'd be curious to hear your rationale for why a healer should only have a d8 or less.

Barna13
2018-01-20, 09:55 AM
But your other point about range is a good one- rather than putting the healer right in the middle of things though, what about letting him cast from the back row? Add an ability that gives range to all his touch spells (Cure X Wounds, Heal, etc). At level 3 he can cast any touch spell with a range of Short, at level 8 it increases to Medium, and by level 14 it increases to Long range. Problem solved, and it's another way to differentiate him from the Cleric.


That's probably stronger than the armor/hp. It also allows for chain spell, which thinking about it neatly allows the "Mass revive" through chain revivify without forcing it on the player. I like this idea, I'll drop the armor prof and change the HD to a d8 and introduce it.



How exactly does that work with Gate?

I'll throw in a line saying you can only summon creatures you can control with gate.



But you're also getting into another one of those "it's not the healer, it's the other mechanics" issues. I'm still not sure I like it, maybe free Maximized healing spells would be better, but you're right in that we can think on it more.

I was operating under the assumption that mastery of day and night would be a given for feat picks.



It's not the DMM that I object to in theory, it's more like the anti-undead part. What about instead something like just a burst of positive energy (AOE circle, centered on the Healer). That gives you more healing, it's still a potent weapon against Undead, it's interesting to have to play around other living enemies with, and you can use charges of that to fuel DMM instead.

I feel like this would add complexity without adding depth. I mean the healer already, by definition, has quite power positive energy effects. Replacing turn with one that also can be used to fuel divine feats seems redundant.

Barna13
2018-01-20, 09:58 AM
Yeah, I just now realize how versatile the [Good] descriptor group of spells is.
Notice that some summon spells would allow you to circumvent Healerís Oath, by having your summoned creatures attack for you w/o restrictions.

To be clear, summons also can't violate the oath.


Speaking of Healerís Oath, I find it too restrictive. No reason to apply it to constructs, oozes or outsiders with the [Evil] subtype.

Good point, I'll change that.



Then the problem is with Gate spell. Anyone I've ever talked with about it agree that it's broken. It should never have been about summoning.

Ehhhh, they would still have access to an advanced learning, so I stand by 6 being too many.

Deepbluediver
2018-01-20, 10:02 AM
That's probably stronger than the armor/hp. It also allows for chain spell, which thinking about it neatly allows the "Mass revive" through chain revivify without forcing it on the player. I like this idea, I'll drop the armor prof and change the HD to a d8 and introduce it.
I liked the large HD, but ultimately it's up to you. I was just trying to give alternate ways of doing things, and I can't really be objective- the things I like are the ways I would do it, not whats necessarily the best based on whatever vision you're working towards.


I was operating under the assumption that mastery of day and night would be a given for feat picks.
I had to look that up- I'm not familiar with most of the Ebberon or other setting-specific stuff. Some GMs don't like it, but if allowed then yes that would almost have to be a required feat.


Edit: A few of the quotes you were replying to from nonsi got attributed to me. Don't put words in my mouth; that's the Bard's job!
:P

Barna13
2018-01-20, 10:08 AM
in the odd category:
a) 90% of the healer's power and versatility comes in the forms of their spells, You kept the same exact spell list, that means that 90% of the healer is exactly the same

Update the spell list with spells from the spell compendium and spells that help allies ( like heroism, aid, bear's endurance) and some utility spells (like tongues, commune, and fortunate fate)

then slap in some non-leathal offensive spells (like Inhibit, forbiddance, and greater command)

I made a healer re-tool and slapped in anti-undead themed spells as well, if you want to explore that as an option

b) You delay the unicorn until level 8, without changing anything else about it. keep it at 5th

I will probably add some spells from spell compendium(And possibly the whelm line). I won't be adding buffs, because in my mind that's not what the healer should be doing with his actions.

As for the unicorn: that's an embarrassing blunder on my part, I'll fix that(and include the alternate companion sidebar.)


what i would change: i would nix what you have for healing hands and instead of what you got, let the healer add cha mod to each dice on healing spells, futher more I would give them Augment Healing as a bonus feat at 2nd level AND give them ways to use the heal skill-what I did with mine was if healer hit the DC she got a free empower on her heals

The Cha-to-Dice is a good idea, but it doesn't help the mass cure line much, so I'm iffy on it. Augment healing should probably just be taken as a normal feat.


Also I would make the conversion a 1:1 ratio on over healer instead of a 4:1 from the start. Id fill up those levels with like.. some kind of status effect removal.
I feel 1:1 would be too strong out of the gate. As for status removal, savior, along with the spontaneous casting, fills that niche quite well.

Barna13
2018-01-20, 10:12 AM
That's where I was aiming with my proposed Mercy. A suggestion that was rejected on the account that selection from [Good] spells (which I find problematic) is superior.

To be clear, your mercy suggestion was rejected due to the status effect removal niche being filled quite comfortably with both the full list-spontaneous casting and the savior ability.

ngilop
2018-01-20, 11:58 AM
stuffs

The issue is you want to, as stated in your original post, make the healer better. if you just slap in tons of heals you are not doing it.


think of buffs as pro active heals, if someone has better defenses then they need less healing later on


basically your editions to the base healer is not even much of a sidegrade, really the only thing you have added that could be considered a imporvement is the massive HD boost.

other than than the class is still 'cleric does it better' on everything they do.

Barna13
2018-01-20, 01:01 PM
The issue is you want to, as stated in your original post, make the healer better. if you just slap in tons of heals you are not doing it.


think of buffs as pro active heals, if someone has better defenses then they need less healing later on


basically your editions to the base healer is not even much of a sidegrade, really the only thing you have added that could be considered a imporvement is the massive HD boost.

other than than the class is still 'cleric does it better' on everything they do.

This is a fundamentally weird argument to make. This is like saying druid without wild shape/animal companion is equal to druid with those features. It's simply not the case.

Here is a list of some of the most major changes:

1. Boost to mid-level healing spells. Healing hands now add significantly more to mid-level healing spells, making the cure mass chain actually viable.

2. Spontaneous casting. A healer can now cast their entire spell list spontaneously, a massive improvement from having to prepare, which helps them respond to the needs of encounters, particularly removing conditions when combined with:

3. Purity. Extra actions are powerful. Extra actions that can remove a condition before your party member's turn, so they don't even notice, even more powerful.

4. Residual healing: A powerful pre-buff at higher levels, and a bit of a boost to people who are at full health when you use the mass cure line.

5. Advanced learning: There are a lot of good summons out their, particularly at high-levels.

6. Distance casting(Replaced armor and d12): Casting spells at a distance lets a healer stay in the back, keeping them safe.

So it seems unreasonable to say that it's basically the same as the base healer. As to the "Buffs are like pre-healing", I'm an experienced 3.5 player, with lots of experience optimizing. I'm well aware of why buffs are stronger than healing. Adding buffs would certainly increase the power of the healer, but in my opinion that would take away from the healer's uniqueness. My intention with this remake was not to make healer better than or even equal to cleric. I did not set out to make a tier 1 class. Instead, I wanted to make healers truly shine in a few, albeit non-optimal areas. Namely, healing and condition removal, while still giving them a couple of options when those aren't needed.

Barna13
2018-01-20, 02:42 PM
First major update to my healer. Changelog is as follows:

Lowered HD to d8, removed armor proficiency, removed alignment restriction, added mind blank, resist energy, mass resist energy, protection from energy, energy immunity, resurgence, mass resurgence, protection from arrows, whelm, mass whelm,overwhelm, and shield other to the healerís spell list, added extended reach ability, added oozes, constructs, and evil outsiders to those a healer can harm, replaced turn undead with metamagic pool.

Deepbluediver
2018-01-21, 02:14 PM
So it seems unreasonable to say that it's basically the same as the base healer. As to the "Buffs are like pre-healing", I'm an experienced 3.5 player, with lots of experience optimizing. I'm well aware of why buffs are stronger than healing. Adding buffs would certainly increase the power of the healer, but in my opinion that would take away from the healer's uniqueness. My intention with this remake was not to make healer better than or even equal to cleric. I did not set out to make a tier 1 class. Instead, I wanted to make healers truly shine in a few, albeit non-optimal areas. Namely, healing and condition removal, while still giving them a couple of options when those aren't needed.
The question, ultimately, is what are you trying to accomplish? The Cleric is, in almost any case, a pretty good healer, and with a little effort can become very good at healing. But the big thing is the Cleric can also do other stuff.

So if you're goal is to just make the Healer better at healing, then you've succeeded. However if your goal is to "make a better healer", then you probably still haven't succeeded because a decently played Cleric can be a good healer AND other things at the same time. That's the key distinction between those two objectives.

If your end-goal is to make this class at all attractive to most players, then you need to change the CLERIC (and maybe also the Favored Soul and Druid and a few others), and also add some modifications to how HP works in the game, and probably rewrite a few spells. What I'm saying is, in order to make a better healer for D&D 3.5, then you can't just improve their heals, there has to be other options that come into play before level 17 when you get Gate.

Goaty14
2018-01-22, 12:38 PM
Healing Hands doesn't lift the CL limit on spells, therefore capping it's usefulness at later levels.

Kamai
2018-01-22, 07:05 PM
After seeing some of the changes, I definitely think that the changes to the spell list are for the better, and give the healer things to do when healing isn't as needed. The D12 hit die was something that seemed odd until I saw the shield other as a first level spell. I feel like an ACF that gave that back while trading for abilities that let you take damage for allies could be a really fun take on it.

Nitpicks: Extended spells should either say Touch spells have their range changed to X feet or you can change the range of any spell to X feet. Right now, the feature overwrites ranges. It may also be worth letting this feature open up the distance that targets are allowed to be apart for Mass spells.
Unicorn Companion: The -4 to attack and damage is really not meaningful to the healer. If you think there needs to be a penalty outside of losing it for 30 days, -1 spell/day of the highest 2 levels would be a fair comparison penalty, when comparing to a Paladin.

SpaceCommander
2018-01-26, 02:26 AM
Not sure how cheesy this is but Necrotic Curse (Sor/Wiz 7, Complete Mage) makes it so that healing spells in an area deal damage if the caster of the healing spell fails (or chooses to fail) a caster level check. I could see a higher level healer getting a wand of this and taking Nonlethal Spell (Complete Arcane) and then spamming Heal and Mass Cure Critical Wounds (or even a Mass Heal come 15th level) to deal concentrated or area damage to anyone with ease, becoming the party's main blaster.

Also, is the Healer's Oath really necessary?

Finally, you might want to say that the Metamagic Pool does not stack with other effects such as Practical Metamagic, or Divine Metamagic.

jqavins
2018-01-26, 03:01 PM
I can't access Google Docs while at work, so I'll read this and the rest of the thread later. But for now...
My goals with this remake: I love healers. I know they're not optimal, but there's a sick power fantasy of holding your ally's life in your fingertips, knowing that you alone hold their life in your hands like a Machiavellian puppet master, and that your scorn could lead to their brutal demise!
Has anyone ever told you you're scary? Just in case I'm the first, you're scary!