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View Full Version : Invisibility and moving through enemy squares?



NullAshton
2007-08-25, 02:09 PM
When invisible, can you move through enemy squares? Common sense seems to say that yes, you can, since they can't see you to stop you, but I can't find anything in the rules saying either way.

Lokey
2007-08-25, 02:12 PM
What part of the invisibility spell ensures you won't be heard, smelt or tremor sensed?

NullAshton
2007-08-25, 02:14 PM
What part of the invisibility spell ensures you won't be heard, smelt or tremor sensed?

Except that most people CAN'T figure out where someone is through hearing, smell, and tremor sense.

Fax Celestis
2007-08-25, 02:15 PM
A creature is considered to be taking up all squares it occupies in its entirety. You would have to make an overrun attempt to move through an opponents square even when invisible.

Ralfarius
2007-08-25, 02:21 PM
I would assume that if the target whose space your character is moving through is aware of your presence (they see you before you cast the spell, or otherwise become aware), then an attack of opportunity would be allowed. However, all the normal penalties of attempting to strike an invisible opponent would apply.

Were the target unaware of your presence, that may be a different story. I would assume you would require the standard check to try and move silently so they don't become aware of your presence. A person walking through a room, even an invisible one, is not completely without perceptible presence.

Also, consider that a medium side creature takes up a 5-foot square. That's mostly taken up by their body, and trying to move through their space means you have to contend with how much they are actually taking up. That sort of thing usually involves a tumble check.

Personally, I would say that an invisible creature could move through a threatened area more easily than an area which is occupied by a hostile creature.

KillianHawkeye
2007-08-25, 02:39 PM
I kinda doubt you can move through enemy squares when invisible. Normally, you can only move through squares occupied by other friendly units, but the only reason you can even do that is because they can see you and choose to let you slip by them.

Thus, I would probably not let you go through even a friendly space while invisible unless you used some form of communication ("Coming through!"), or they already know you're invisible and are likely to try to get by them. Also, moving through an enemy's threatened squares would only provoke an attack of opportunity if they could pinpoint your location (at the point when you move out of the square), and they would still have the 50% miss chance as normal.

Thanatos 51-50
2007-08-25, 02:46 PM
An easier tumble check than usual.

Not being able to see you, the enemy can't activly move to stop you as part of his combat action - and he doesn't recieve an Attack of Oppertunity

But, there should be some sort of non-definable sixth-sense that warns you that SOMETHING is moving VERY close to you.
Perhps the movement of the air as you blow on by, if you need to justify it.

grinner666
2007-08-25, 02:47 PM
The Tumble skill can allow you to move through an enemy square. I think the various Invisibility spells should render at least as much protection as that skill. I would, however, think a skill roll of some sort would be required. Maybe Move Silently? Not a 25+ though ... opposed roll, I think.

Dervag
2007-08-25, 03:09 PM
I've always wondered about that. I mean, sure you could move through the 5' square centered on a human being (if they let you, or if you were really good at evading their attack). But what about a gelatinous cube which, more or less by definition, occupies the entire volume of the squares it is in?

Curmudgeon
2007-08-25, 05:08 PM
When invisible, can you move through enemy squares? If you're medium size or smaller, yes:
Squeezing

In some cases, you may have to squeeze into or through an area that isn’t as wide as the space you take up. You can squeeze through or into a space that is at least half as wide as your normal space. Each move into or through a narrow space counts as if it were 2 squares, and while squeezed in a narrow space you take a -4 penalty on attack rolls and a -4 penalty to AC.

A creature can squeeze past an opponent while moving but it can’t end its movement in an occupied square. The rules don't care whether you're visible to the enemy, or not, when you squeeze by them.

grinner666
2007-08-25, 06:01 PM
The rules don't care whether you're visible to the enemy, or not, when you squeeze by them.

The movement rules might not care; the combat rules, on the other hand, certainly do.

AtomicKitKat
2007-08-25, 10:39 PM
I've always wondered about that. I mean, sure you could move through the 5' square centered on a human being (if they let you, or if you were really good at evading their attack). But what about a gelatinous cube which, more or less by definition, occupies the entire volume of the squares it is in?

Cube doesn't allow squeezing unless cube chooses to overrun you.

UserClone
2007-08-25, 10:48 PM
How is is a BG going to get an AoO in the first place, isn't he automatically considered flatfooted w/ respect to you? Or does that only apply to his AC for your attack rolls?

Jack_Simth
2007-08-25, 11:19 PM
If it helps, the specific character that prompted the question was invisibly trying to get past an opponent, had ranks in Tumble, and got a 23 on the first Tumble check (and was only trying to get through a single occupied square, although there was another opponent nearby) before any situational modifiers... and it normally only takes a DC 25 Tumble check to go through an occupied square.

Stephen_E
2007-08-26, 05:53 AM
If it helps, the specific character that prompted the question was invisibly trying to get past an opponent, had ranks in Tumble, and got a 23 on the first Tumble check (and was only trying to get through a single occupied square, although there was another opponent nearby) before any situational modifiers... and it normally only takes a DC 25 Tumble check to go through an occupied square.

By Raw been invisible doesn't help you one bit.

I would think the GM deserves to be shot if he doesn't give at least a +2 circumstance bonus.

Personally I'd probably give a +5 and not give penalties for additional adjacent enemies.

Stephen

Curmudgeon
2007-08-26, 12:34 PM
If it helps, the specific character that prompted the question was invisibly trying to get past an opponent, had ranks in Tumble, and got a 23 on the first Tumble check (and was only trying to get through a single occupied square, although there was another opponent nearby) before any situational modifiers... and it normally only takes a DC 25 Tumble check to go through an occupied square. So the Tumble check failed, and they were forced to use the squeezing rule for non-tumbling movement: double movement cost. There's no combat penalty for the squeezing, but moving out of the enemy's threatened area provokes an AoO. However, that's not going to help them too much:
You can’t attack an opponent that has total concealment, though you can attack into a square that you think he occupies. So the enemy gets a free swing at a random threatened square, using guesswork. That's 1/8 (or less) to pick the right square, 1/2 to pick the right part of that targeted square, and the normal chance of missing the target's AC.

I wouldn't worry about it. Missing the Tumble check isn't much of a liability in this case.

Lokey
2007-08-26, 02:50 PM
Except that most people CAN'T figure out where someone is through hearing, smell, and tremor sense.
Most people I know aren't DnD characters ;) Under Scent for example:

The creature detects another creature’s presence but not its specific location. Noting the direction of the scent is a move action. If it moves within 5 feet of the scent’s source, the creature can pinpoint that source.

Stephen_E
2007-08-27, 12:15 AM
So the Tumble check failed, and they were forced to use the squeezing rule for non-tumbling movement: double movement cost. There's no combat penalty for the squeezing, but moving out of the enemy's threatened area provokes an AoO. However, that's not going to help them too much: So the enemy gets a free swing at a random threatened square, using guesswork. That's 1/8 (or less) to pick the right square, 1/2 to pick the right part of that targeted square, and the normal chance of missing the target's AC.

I wouldn't worry about it. Missing the Tumble check isn't much of a liability in this case.

Technically I don't beleive squezzing actually allos you to enter a enemy occupied square.

Also note that you get spot and/or listen checks to indentify the square a invisible person is in. Reactive checks!

Stephen

Curmudgeon
2007-08-27, 05:33 AM
Technically I don't beleive squezzing actually allos you to enter a enemy occupied square. Surely it does. It's right in the rules:
Squeezing

In some cases, you may have to squeeze into or through an area that isn’t as wide as the space you take up. You can squeeze through or into a space that is at least half as wide as your normal space. Each move into or through a narrow space counts as if it were 2 squares, and while squeezed in a narrow space you take a -4 penalty on attack rolls and a -4 penalty to AC.

A creature can squeeze past an opponent while moving but it can’t end its movement in an occupied square.