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View Full Version : Prestige Class Voting Thread II, Race to the Top



Westhart
2018-01-29, 09:16 AM
Well, here's the voting thread for the second prestige class contest, Race to the Top. Voting will consist of each voter giving a first, a second, and a third place vote, as well as a vote for the categories of Most Original, Most Likely to See Play, and Best Use of Theme. Anyone can vote, and in fact, entrants must vote to qualify for victory.

A first place vote is worth three points, a second place vote is worth two points, and a third place vote is worth one point. Votes for the three other categories are each worth 1 point in their category. You may not vote for your own entry.

You are encouraged to include reason with your votes, though this is not absolutely required.

The entry that ends up with the most points wins the contest, and each category goes to the entry with the most votes in it.. Voting starts now and will continue until 11:59pm (Eastern Standard Time USA/Canada; GMT-5) on February the 16th.



Entry
Creator
1st
2nd
3rd
Total Points
Most Original
Most Likely to See Play
Best Use of Theme


Rat Lord
Aniikis
1
1
2
7
1
1



The Faerie Courts (Really just Fae paragon classes :smallredface:)
NothingAbnormal
1
1
2
7

1



Lidless Master
Lanth Sor









The Maker
Jormengand
3
1

11
3
3
1


Interplanar Merchant
rferries

2
1
5
1




Psiphyte
daremetoidareyo









Primus
MrNobody









Ultimate Dragons
Baby Gary









The Quintessential
neriractor
2
1
1
9

2
7


The Chiaroscuri
Ranged ranger
1
2
2
9
2
1



Racist Paragon
Noob




1





Congratulations to the Winners of the Second Prestige Class Contest!
1st Place: The Maker by Jormengand
2nd Place: (TIE) The Quintessential by neriractor and The Chiaroscuri by Ranged Ranger
3rd Place: (TIE) The Rat Lord by Aniikis and The Faerie Courts by NothingAbnormal
Most Original: The Maker by Jormengand
Most Likely to See Play: The Maker by Jormengand
Best Use of Theme: The Quintessential by neriractor

Aniikinis
2018-01-29, 10:42 AM
Alright then...

1st Place: The Maker. Just. Holy crap Jorm, yes.
2nd Place: Interplanar Merchant.
3rd Place: The Faerie Courts. Mainly for it being a Package Deal of 6 RPrCs in one. :smalltongue:
Most Original: I'm torn for this one, but I have to give it to The Chiaroscuri. I love the dynamic it brings with the take on the Illumian and Changelings. If this one hadn't been on the list then it definitely would have gone to The Racist Paragon.
Most Likely to See Play: The Maker. I'm not going to lie, I could seriously see a few of my group members taking this class. For Baator's sake, I'm tempted to make one in the next campaign.
Best Use of Theme: The Quintessential. I really like this class and I could really see it being used. Also stupidly fun for a changeling that's pretending to be another race when the party has no clue.

rferries
2018-01-29, 10:49 AM
A pity so many people dropped out, a lot of the entries looked very promising! My votes:

1st Place: Rat Lord by Aniikinis. Polished, playable, and a very unique concept.

2nd Place: The Faerie Courts, by NothingAbnormal. I could see this being used in a fey-centric campaign to flesh out both PCs and NPCs.

3rd Place: The Chiaroscuri, by Ranged Ranger. Perhaps a tenuous connection to the contest concept but it's still smooth and workable.

Most Original: The Maker, by Jormengand. Once again, an entire subsystem's worth of material in an entry hehe.

Most Likely to See Play: Rat Lord again.

Best Use of Theme: The Quintessential, by Neriractor. Could use some polishing but it's certainly the most obvious use of "race" (honourable mention to Noob's Racist Paragon).

Gideon Falcon
2018-02-06, 03:35 PM
1. The Maker. Any questions?
2. The Chiaroscuri. It's always interesting to see more stuff with Illumians, and the extra sigils are a nice touch.
3. The Quintessential. This slit was a bit harder, but ultimately I went with the most variable class, as customizability is one of the biggest hooks for any class.
Most Original: The Maker. Just... Seriously.
Most likely to see play and Best use of them both go to the quintessential, because it's basic, usable, and versatile, and is an interesting but clearly linkable take on the theme. The Rat Lord was a close second on seeing play, as it feels just like an official PrC from a splat book, but it requires being a direct rat, which is very niche.

MrNobody
2018-02-10, 05:42 PM
1st Place: Quintessential
2nd Place: The Chiaroscuri
3rd Place: Interplanar Merchant

Most Original: The Maker
Most Likely to See Play: Quintessential
Best Use of Theme: Quintessential

neriractor
2018-02-12, 10:58 PM
1st Place: The Chiaroscuri. I can say that this is a very biased pick, I have a soft spot for both illumians and changelings and aside from some errors here and there this class is a pretty good way to bring that flavor to any character.

2nd Place: The Maker. I canīt say I have looked more than passingly at the other elite spellcasters but I really like this one, as with th others it is clear you put a lot of work into this, and this time I actually read that work :smalltongue:

3rd Place: Rat Lord. Another really solid class, and I was close to picking it for second place but I just found the other classes to be better this time, Iīm sorry for the lack of actual constructive critiscism, I canīt complain about the class but nothing is really wow inducing either.

Most original: Interplanar merchant. Thats probably the last class I would have thought of making, seeing as I didnīt know the race existed.
Most Likely to See Play: The Faerie Courts simple, easy to use add ons for both PC builds and fey NPCs, I could see myself using them if I ever DMed.
Best Use of Theme: The maker. The summoner of creatures is the way I wanted to do this one, actually I wanted to make an adventurer summoner, pretty much only for play by post since it would be hell for a table but still I found it the best way to represent race without falling into the obvious (like yours truly).

Ranged Ranger
2018-02-15, 11:13 AM
Choosing my three favorites was easy, but deciding on a order was nigh impossible...

1st Place: The Faerie Courts. Yeah, Fae!

2nd Place: Interplanar Merchant. Very cool flavor.

3rd Place: Rat Lord. Now I just need to find a template that gives a dire rat the Int score for speech and a language...

Choosing special categories was much easier.

Most Original: Racist Paragon. Weird Morality...

Most Likely to See Play: The Maker. A popular type of spell, and this entry provides a lot of support for it.

Best Use of Theme: The Quintessential [race]

Jormengand
2018-02-16, 10:36 AM
1: Quintessential [Race]
So, this is a pretty decent concept, and neatly dodges the problems of racial PrCs where "If your concept doesn't exist at first level, it doesn't exist at all" by actually advancing the thing you do as well as providing wide enough features to decide what you want to do. Execution could use a bit of work, but we can't all put in the kind of insanity that I do, so it's forgivable. I think you're kinda the shoo-in victor for Best Use of Theme, but have another one anyway.

2: Rat Lord
Weird, not a prestige class really so much as a short base class or a long racial paragon class, and mostly gives you +numbers. I don't see that capstone ever getting used. Probably Most Original I guess.

3: Faerie Courts
I'm not a massive fan of paragons, but these ones are pretty good.

4: Chiaroscuri
I noted some problems with this in the chat thread, but one of the main problems is that problem that almost all PrCs have: it advances a core concept from, in this case, character levels 2 to 8, and then it just stops. Fortunately for anyone who does want to play this, you can go straight into Arcane Trickster until 18th, but your "Look at me, I'm a badass illumian (or not)" abilities stop after taking 7 levels in it. If you're not actually an illumian, your character concept also doesn't exist at first level (unless you argue with your DM that the maximum ranks for a character who doesn't have any class levels yet is zero, which is technically true).

The main problem, though, is that you've put in tons of stealth abilities that are contingent on having neon-bright glowing symbols flying around your head.

Still, from what I've seen of people's apparent love for illumians, I'm gonna say this is Most Likely to See Play. Though you missed a trick by not making it truespeak-compatible. :smalltongue:

5: Interplanar Merchant
I have some issues with this.

For a start, you are aware that "Ignor[ing] the +7 level adjustment for being a mercane" means that you immediately get another 7 levels, and not that you can actually start to take levels in the class at level 9? This means that you actually can't play an interplanar merchant until you're ECL 16.

Second, the next question you need to ask is "How many caster levels lost are worth full BAB, 2 more hit points per level, all good saves, literal money-summoning, +4/+4/+6/+10/+6/+4, SR 25, some neat racial SLAs, and skill points forever?". Caster levels are lovely and all, but - especially since you only even EXIST at high levels, and therefore won't be missing out on a spell level for very long - the +10 INT is usually going to get you back most of your slots you were after anyway.

6 Psiphyte, 7 Ultimate Dragons, 8 Primus, 9 Lidless Master

These classes aren't actually finished.

10: Racist Paragon
Why did you think this was a good idea?

Oh, and you need to explain what level 0 means oh and by the way favoured enemy isn't good enough to be the only thing a class has going for it. You have no class skills: why?

CopperElfCleric
2018-02-16, 11:16 AM
Don't know if it's too late to enter, but here is my Mischiefmaker PrC

The Mischiefmaker (specialty cleric of Erevan Ilesere)

The Mischiefmaker represents all that is chaotic and free. They bring change and excitement where ever they go be it for good or ill. They live on the edge in a constant state of self-reinvention. They thrive to puncture the self-righteousness, sanctimony, and pretension that pervades orderly society with mischievous pranks that both amuse and enlighten. They enjoy causing trouble for its own sake and have the ability to take care of themselves should a prank prove to be deadly or go awry. Most Mischiefmakers are Moon or Copper elves, but even Gold, Wild and Star elves take this class when the call of Erevan sings strongly in their hearts. Most Mischiefmakers are famous or infamous Rogue/Clerics in the favor of Erevan Ilesere and serve as his mortal right-hand. They are deadly-romantic in their charm and subtlety of skill. Brave and yet flighty. They are champions of trickery and modest in ability. To underestimate a Mischiefmaker is to court the surety of becoming the victim to an amusing, well thought, elaborate hoax that could end up costing you and being at your cost.

Hit Die: d8.

Requirements: To qualify to become a Mischiefmaker, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.

Race: Character must be a Elf or Half Elf.

Skills: Knowledge (religion) 6 ranks, Disguise 5 ranks, Disable device 6 ranks, Bluff 6 ranks, Hide 6 ranks, Move silently 6 ranks, sleight of hand 5 ranks, Concentration 2 ranks, Spellcraft 1 rank, Escape Artist 2 ranks.

Feats: Any Metamagic feat, Sacred Outlaw.

Spellcasting: Ability to cast 3'rd level Divine spells. Must have either the chaos, trickery or luck domain.

Special: +2d6 Sneak attack ability. Must have Erevan Ilesere as a Patron Deity.

Class Skills: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Disguise, Disable Device, Escape artist, Heal, Hide, Intuit direction, Jump, Knowledge (religion), Listen, Move silently, Open lock, Sleight of hand, Profession, Search, Spellcraft, Spot, Tumble, Use magic device, Use rope, Wilderness lore.

Skill points at each level- 6 + Int mod.

Class Features: Weapon & Armor Proficiency: Mischiefmaker's are proficient with all simple weapons, plus the hand crossbow, rapier, sap, shortbow, and short sword. MM's are proficient with light armor, but not with shields.

Spells per day: A Mischiefmaker's training focuses on divine magic. Thus, when a character gains a new level of MM, she gains new spells per day as if she also gained a level in whatever spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class. She does not however gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained.

Divine Scoundrel: At 1'st level the MM gains the ability to add her Mischiefmaker class levels to stack with her Sacred Outlaw feat. For example, a 5'th level cleric/ 3'rd level rogue/ 3'rd level Mischiefmaker Turns undead as a 11'th level cleric, and deals +6d6 points of damage on a successful sneak attack.

Granted Domain: At 2'nd level, the MM gains access to one domain chosen from among those her deity offers, and with it the granted power of that domain. Mischiefmakers who were once clerics essentially gain a third domain this way and can prepare their domain spells at each level from the new domain’s list if they wish.

Mock Law: At 3'rd level, the MM gains a +2 divine bonus on saving throws against any spell with the law descriptor, as well as the spell-like or supernatural abilities of outsiders. In addition the MM also gains a +2 divine bonus to the DC of all spells he casts with the chaos, Luck and trickery Domains.

Shadow Trick: Beginning at 4'th level, once a day you can call forth the power of shadow, enveloping yourself in a clinging, concealing shroud of darkness. While this spell-like ability is in effect, you gain a number of benefits. The shadows wrapping your form grant you a +4 competence bonus on Escape Artist, Hide, and Move Silently checks. Your shadowy form also provides you with concealment. This shadowy concealment is not negated by a see invisibility spell, but a true seeing spell counteracts the effect. Standing within the radius of a daylight spell or in bright natural sunlight temporarily suppresses the concealment effect. In addition, if you have 5 ranks in Escape Artist, you can attempt to slip through a solid object or barrier up to 5 feet thick with a DC 20 Escape Artist check, though doing this ends the spell as soon as the attempt is completed (regardless of success). If you have 10 ranks in Escape Artist, you can attempt to pass through an object or barrier up to 10 feet thick. If you have 15 ranks in Escape Artist, you can attempt to pass through a barrier composed of magical force (or similar magical obstacles). This ability lasts 1 minute/ level of MM class, and requires 1 standard action to use.

Side Slip: At 5'th level, you become supernaturally elusive. Five times per day as an immediate action, you can transfer yourself from your current space to another up to 20 feet away. This ability otherwise works like the dimension door spell, except that you cannot transport other creatures with you.

Surprise Spells: At 6'th level, a Mischiefmaker can add his sneak attack damage to any spell that deals damage, as long as the targets are flat-footed. This additional damage only applies to spells that deal hit point damage. The additional damage is of the same type as the spell. If the spell allows a saving throw to negate or halve the damage, it also negates or halves the sneak attack damage. The additional damage is only applied once per spell.

Metamagic Trick: At 7'th level, you understand how to apply the principle of tricks to your spellcasting. Once per day you can apply the effect of any one metamagic feat you know to a spell as you cast it without altering the spell’s effective level. The spell slot adjustment of the metamagic feat can’t exceed four.

Invisible Thief: Beginning at 8'th level, the MM can become invisible, as if under the effects of greater invisibility, as a free action. She can remain invisible for a number of rounds per day equal to her MM level. Her caster level for this effect is equal to her full character caster level. These rounds need not be consecutive.

Tricky Magic : At 9'th level once per day as a swift action, you can add your Charisma Modifier as a luck bonus on the save DC of all spells you cast until the start of your next turn.

Scoundrel's Shadow: At 10'th level, the MM has mastered the art of Trickery and Divine spells. The MM can become incorporeal once per day. A MM can remain incorporeal for a number of rounds equal to 5 + her Wis Mod. As an incorporeal creature, the MM can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, +1 or better magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. She is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, the MM has a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source (except for force effects, such as magic missile, or attacks made with ghost touch weapons). An incorporeal MM has no natural armor but has a deflection bonus equal to her Charisma modifier. An incorporeal MM can pass through solid objects at will, but not force effects. Her attack passes through (ignores) natural armor, armor, and shields, although deflection bonuses and force effects (such as mage armor) work normally against it. An incorporeal MM moves silently and cannot be heard with Listen checks if she doesn't wish to be. While incorporeal, the MM has no Strength score, so her Dexterity modifier applies to both her melee and her ranged attacks.

(All spell-like abilities are cast at total character caster level)



The Mischiefmaker TABLE 1:1

Base
Attack
Level Bonus Fort Ref Will Special Spellcasting
1st +0 +0 +2 +2 Divine Scoundrel +1 spellcasting level

2nd +1 +0 +3 +3 Granted Domain +1 spellcasting level

3rd +2 +1 +3 +3 Mock Law +1 spellcasting level

4th +3 +1 +4 +4 Shadow Trick +1 spellcasting level

5th +3 +1 +4 +4 Side Slip +1 spellcasting level

6th +4 +2 +5 +5 Surprise Spells +1 spellcasting level

7th +5 +2 +5 +5 Metamagic Trick +1 spellcasting level

8th +6/+1 +2 +6 +6 Invisible Thief +1 spellcasting level

9th +6/+1 +3 +6 +6 Tricky Magic +1 spellcasting level

10th +7/+2 +3 +7 +7 Scoundrels Shadow +1 spellcasting level


All comments and critique are welcome,

CEC

Gideon Falcon
2018-02-16, 01:24 PM
This is the voting thread, not the submission thread, so I'd say it's probably too late. But then, I'm just a bird in a hat, what do I know?

rferries
2018-02-16, 07:03 PM
Jormengand, it might be easier for NothingAbnormal to tally the votes if you rank everything like so:

1st Place:
2nd Place:
3rd Place:
Most Original:
Most Likely to See Play:
Best Use of Theme:


For a start, you are aware that "Ignor[ing] the +7 level adjustment for being a mercane" means that you immediately get another 7 levels, and not that you can actually start to take levels in the class at level 9? This means that you actually can't play an interplanar merchant until you're ECL 16.

I suppose technically you'd be a 15th level character (7 racial HD, +7 LA, Wiz 1) who suddenly becomes a 9th-level (7 racial HD, Wiz 1, Interplanar Merchant 1) character upon taking a level in the class. However see below.


Second, the next question you need to ask is "How many caster levels lost are worth full BAB, 2 more hit points per level, all good saves, literal money-summoning, +4/+4/+6/+10/+6/+4, SR 25, some neat racial SLAs, and skill points forever?". Caster levels are lovely and all, but - especially since you only even EXIST at high levels, and therefore won't be missing out on a spell level for very long - the +10 INT is usually going to get you back most of your slots you were after anyway.

Point taken well taken! I think (in the unlikely event that anyone uses the class haha) it's better starting a campaign at the minimum level (9th), so your casting will lag for a while. I used the LA-reassignment thread as a baseline philosophy, though perhaps the LA should have been reduced to +1 or +2 instead of removed entirely.


This is the voting thread, not the submission thread, so I'd say it's probably too late. But then, I'm just a bird in a hat, what do I know?

Yeah it's too bad, but maybe they could resubmit their entry for a later contest?

Jormengand
2018-02-17, 10:19 AM
Jormengand, it might be easier for NothingAbnormal to tally the votes if you rank everything like so:

1st Place:
2nd Place:
3rd Place:
Most Original:
Most Likely to See Play:
Best Use of Theme:

Ah, I think it's quick enough to see at a skim: just read the bold.


I suppose technically you'd be a 15th level character (7 racial HD, +7 LA, Wiz 1) who suddenly becomes a 9th-level (7 racial HD, Wiz 1, Interplanar Merchant 1) character upon taking a level in the class. However see below.

Not... quite. You'd still have enough XP to attain your sixteenth level, so you wouldn't drop to ninth level. You would stay at ECL 16, and could use that to take your second through eighth levels of Interplanar Merchant immediately. That is, no ECL 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 or 15 interplanar merchant can possibly be legally built, because it isn't possible to enter at that level.


Point taken well taken! I think (in the unlikely event that anyone uses the class haha) it's better starting a campaign at the minimum level (9th), so your casting will lag for a while. I used the LA-reassignment thread as a baseline philosophy, though perhaps the LA should have been reduced to +1 or +2 instead of removed entirely.

I think that what you really ought to do (particularly since the 9th-level character technically isn't legal) is either accept that the mercane race is a lost cause, or create a class which gradually gives you mercane traits but doesn't force you to start off as one. Certainly, the 150% advancement of existing spellcasting class thing is a bit dangerous in general - imagine if you're advancing Maker casting which is in turn advancing Wizard casting! (Outsider 7/Wiz 1/IM 4/Maker 1/IM 6 gets you full elite spells and full casting and all of the IM's class features pre-epic. You also get BAB 17, 12 base fortitude and reflex, and 16 base will, and you're a mercane and get all manner of mercane-related goodies as well). It would be so much easier to create a spellcasting class which gave you mercane traits for a couple of lost caster levels, and which didn't give you a great hit die and full BAB and all-high saves, rather than try to balance what you actually put out.

noob
2018-02-17, 04:19 PM
[B]
Oh, and you need to explain what level 0 means oh and by the way favoured enemy isn't good enough to be the only thing a class has going for it. You have no class skills: why?

Level 0 is like level 0 for regular wotc classes: it is not an actual level gain.
However the class that had a level 0 before was a class that did sent you back to life and prevented you from taking levels in any other class(and had a requirement of basically being an exalted person who died) and so it gave some benefits.(risen martyr was the name)
I do not want to give benefits at no cost other than writing "racist paragon 0" on your character sheet(which would be possible because racist paragon have way less requirements than risen martyr) which is why all the saves progressions are as low as possible(since a strong save progression starts at 2 at level 0) and why it gives no class skills(since having a class that have a class skill increase the limit of how many ranks you can place in that skill for all the classes and getting that for free would basically make those skills rank limits increased for absolutely everybody who cares about those skills)

Anyway here are my votes:
1: The maker: It is an extra monster manual and a class at once.
2: The Chiaroscuri: It is a nice class even through I would sadly never pick it due to excessive caster level loss and to me being an incorrigible maniac of never losing a caster level.
3:The Rat Lord: a cool class that can probably do the job of a rogue fine.

Most original:The Lidless master: become the best spying eye that spy only for itself!(so sad the class was left incomplete)

Most likely to see play:The Rat lord. Since I do not hang around a lot in dnd games with external homebrew I really do not know but The Rat lord by virtue of being rather simple to implement and not having any broken stuff in it (and not being a minionmancer nor a prc that makes your character weaker in most cases nor a prc that only a super high ecl creature can take) seems the most likely to see play for me.

Best use of theme:The maker.

rferries
2018-02-17, 06:19 PM
Ah, I think it's quick enough to see at a skim: just read the bold.

Yep I caught the bold, I was just wondering about your 1st/2nd/3rd place rankings (apologies if they're there and I've overlooked them!).



Not... quite. You'd still have enough XP to attain your sixteenth level, so you wouldn't drop to ninth level. You would stay at ECL 16, and could use that to take your second through eighth levels of Interplanar Merchant immediately. That is, no ECL 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 or 15 interplanar merchant can possibly be legally built, because it isn't possible to enter at that level.

I think that what you really ought to do (particularly since the 9th-level character technically isn't legal) is either accept that the mercane race is a lost cause, or create a class which gradually gives you mercane traits but doesn't force you to start off as one. Certainly, the 150% advancement of existing spellcasting class thing is a bit dangerous in general - imagine if you're advancing Maker casting which is in turn advancing Wizard casting! (Outsider 7/Wiz 1/IM 4/Maker 1/IM 6 gets you full elite spells and full casting and all of the IM's class features pre-epic. You also get BAB 17, 12 base fortitude and reflex, and 16 base will, and you're a mercane and get all manner of mercane-related goodies as well). It would be so much easier to create a spellcasting class which gave you mercane traits for a couple of lost caster levels, and which didn't give you a great hit die and full BAB and all-high saves, rather than try to balance what you actually put out.

Yeah it's a very "customized" class requiring a lot of DM approval, so perhaps it's better if it's scrapped or left as an NPC role.

Jormengand
2018-02-18, 08:32 AM
Yep I caught the bold, I was just wondering about your 1st/2nd/3rd place rankings (apologies if they're there and I've overlooked them!).

They're the "1: Quintessential [race]" "2: Rat Lord" and "3: Faerie Courts" that I've put up there.


Yeah it's a very "customized" class requiring a lot of DM approval, so perhaps it's better if it's scrapped or left as an NPC role.

The idea may be fixable, but... yeah. That said, Mercane are sorta epic in nature (sorta) so it's not necessarily bad if IM does weird things pre-epic.

rferries
2018-02-18, 01:44 PM
They're the "1: Quintessential [race]" "2: Rat Lord" and "3: Faerie Courts" that I've put up there.

Oh duh haha, my apologies.

Westhart
2018-02-22, 12:45 PM
So, I'm going to vote (Even though it's over the deadline) and if anyone has a problem I'll drop the votes out, I'd have voted but I was... preoccupied (sick as hell).

First Place: The Maker
Second Place: The Quintessential
Third Place: The Chiaroscuri

Most Original: The Chiaroscuri
Best Use of Theme: The Quintessential
Most Likely to see Play: The Maker (Seeing that I'm trying to use it I think it fits nicely :smalltongue:)

Westhart
2018-02-22, 01:04 PM
Congratulations to the Winners of the Second Prestige Class!


...And if anyone wants they can check my math, don't think I screwed up though.

rferries
2018-02-22, 08:09 PM
Gah, I just read your sig! Hope the worst is over!

noob
2018-02-23, 07:47 AM
Why were my votes not tallied?