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JNAProductions
2018-02-03, 10:13 PM
So, I've had an idea knocking around my brain FOREVER. And I did a little writing on it, found here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OBPTltsN9OLO7rxRuCLsg1O3BUJJcvaL2XzJ_woirIk/edit?usp=sharing).

The gist of the idea is that everyone plays as golems (or possibly their creators, which could allow for someone to play a menagerie of weaker, more specialized golems) imbued with the titular Runes into them, giving them powers based on the kinds of runes embedded in their bodies. As you can see, I've got a decent list of Runes, and I figure I'm probably gonna have to go through and just stat out each combo.

That being said, this idea is literally YEARS old (like, we're talking I first had this idea when I was 14) and I've yet to manage to get it working properly. So, help appreciated.

Grod_The_Giant
2018-02-04, 03:42 PM
So, random thoughts... d12s aren't great for a die pool because they're pretty much the rarest die type; I doubt I have more than a half dozen even after buying a pound of assorted dice. Otherwise... I dunno, not a lot of structure to comment on yet. My biggest thought is that you might want to have stats be purchased separately from Chassis (physical powers, I take it?) and Runes. Feels like they're kind of a different category from the other two.

JNAProductions
2018-02-04, 04:40 PM
So, random thoughts... d12s aren't great for a die pool because they're pretty much the rarest die type; I doubt I have more than a half dozen even after buying a pound of assorted dice. Otherwise... I dunno, not a lot of structure to comment on yet. My biggest thought is that you might want to have stats be purchased separately from Chassis (physical powers, I take it?) and Runes. Feels like they're kind of a different category from the other two.

The idea was that there are three categories for character creation:

Stats-the obvious one.
Chassis-how much is spent here determines what kinds of chassis you can have. Like, winged chassis are rarer and harder to make than a standard bipedal chassis. Not sold 100% on this, though./
Runes-this is sort of the flavor and abilities of your golem.

Overall, I know there's not a lot yet, but hey, that's why I came to the gestalt mind that is GitP. Y'all are smart people, so any advice appreciated. :)

Grod_The_Giant
2018-02-04, 05:00 PM
The idea was that there are three categories for character creation:

Stats-the obvious one.
Chassis-how much is spent here determines what kinds of chassis you can have. Like, winged chassis are rarer and harder to make than a standard bipedal chassis. Not sold 100% on this, though./
Runes-this is sort of the flavor and abilities of your golem.

Overall, I know there's not a lot yet, but hey, that's why I came to the gestalt mind that is GitP. Y'all are smart people, so any advice appreciated. :)
The thing is, those don't feel like the same... weight, maybe? Like, Chassis and Runes both seem like they're adding new abilities, while Stats is just mathematical "how well can you do X" that will (presumably) have strong effects on both Chassis and Rune-based abilities. It seems like it would be really easy to get a situation where Stats wind up being significantly underpowered (as in, oh, D&D 3.5, where your stats are largely overshadowed by level-based scaling elements) or overpowered (as in, oh, D&D 5e, where your stats represent a good half of your character's competency) compared to the other two ability types.

JNAProductions
2018-02-04, 08:55 PM
Forgot to say-not married to d12s. Just like the way they roll.

And I do see what youíre saying-posting from work on phone, right now, but Iíll think on it and probably edit the doc.

Grod_The_Giant
2018-02-04, 09:34 PM
Forgot to say-not married to d12s. Just like the way they roll.

And I do see what youíre saying-posting from work on phone, right now, but Iíll think on it and probably edit the doc.
They are really satisfying dice. I came pretty close to using them in STaRS, actually-- they're kinda neat because they can break down into both thirds and quarters, if that makes sense. I just don't think they're common enough for a big die pool. Though if you're mostly using die rollers, it's kind of a moot point.

JNAProductions
2018-02-04, 10:13 PM
The thing is, those don't feel like the same... weight, maybe? Like, Chassis and Runes both seem like they're adding new abilities, while Stats is just mathematical "how well can you do X" that will (presumably) have strong effects on both Chassis and Rune-based abilities. It seems like it would be really easy to get a situation where Stats wind up being significantly underpowered (as in, oh, D&D 3.5, where your stats are largely overshadowed by level-based scaling elements) or overpowered (as in, oh, D&D 5e, where your stats represent a good half of your character's competency) compared to the other two ability types.

Okay, so maybe let just let you decide whether to focus on chassis (physical abilities), Runes (magical abilities), or balance between the two?

In alphanumerical terms, you can pick either A and C for the two, or B for both. Stats you'd always get the same amount.

That being said, I've got stats divided into three (Might, Magic, and Mind) but only two other categories... Maybe a third category of things for mind? Cortex, possibly?

Morphic tide
2018-02-04, 10:35 PM
In regards to ability scores, the only place they're really needed, mechanically and from a minimized-simulationist perspective(like, how far can you pack down every general kind of capability), is mental scores. Varieties of magical capacity fall under Runes, which could represent mental abilities, but that way lies strong magitech due to Runes directly having computational ability(a problem due to the reasonable outcome of the rules as written being Tippyverse-like nonsense), while physical stuff is part of the Chassis.

Grod_The_Giant
2018-02-05, 07:40 AM
Okay, so maybe let just let you decide whether to focus on chassis (physical abilities), Runes (magical abilities), or balance between the two?

In alphanumerical terms, you can pick either A and C for the two, or B for both. Stats you'd always get the same amount.

That being said, I've got stats divided into three (Might, Magic, and Mind) but only two other categories... Maybe a third category of things for mind? Cortex, possibly?
Hmm... eh? I think eh, yes. On the one hand, symmetry in design is nice, but on the other... what would be a mind-based special ability? Most of the stuff that springs to mind (ha-ha) seems off-genre for a game of golems-- either psionic type stuff (which can probably fit better under Runes, the way things are set up) or hacking type stuff (which seems a lot more magitech-y than you may be going for).

JNAProductions
2018-02-05, 11:02 AM
I'm okay getting decently magitech, but yeah, I do see the issue.

Another thing-I was thinking of, for combat, simply using range bands, instead of requiring a grid or anything like that. So you have the following ranges:

Personal-Right up in your face. Unable to hit them properly with anything but small weapons.
Close-Adjacent or very close to you. Good range for fighting with most melee weapons or Runes.
Medium-Close enough that you can quickly close to Close range, and in easy distance of ranged abilities.
Long-Far enough that you cannot easily close to Close range. Possibly out of distance of some ranged abilities.

Perhaps have Long (X) where X is the number of turns it'd take to close to Medium range for someone of average speed?

Morphic tide
2018-02-05, 01:44 PM
I'm okay getting decently magitech, but yeah, I do see the issue.

Another thing-I was thinking of, for combat, simply using range bands, instead of requiring a grid or anything like that. So you have the following ranges:

Personal-Right up in your face. Unable to hit them properly with anything but small weapons.
Close-Adjacent or very close to you. Good range for fighting with most melee weapons or Runes.
Medium-Close enough that you can quickly close to Close range, and in easy distance of ranged abilities.
Long-Far enough that you cannot easily close to Close range. Possibly out of distance of some ranged abilities.

Perhaps have Long (X) where X is the number of turns it'd take to close to Medium range for someone of average speed?

Hmm... Long (X) would be needed if any sort of speed-enhancing Runes exist at all, as the most basic of combat-relevant speed enhancement would be "can go from Long to Close in one turn", thus needing gradients of Long to cover such things. Although I think Mutants and Masterminds has scale-based distance like this with associated speed scales you could look into for some help with that. Grid conversions as an optional rule, like Close being one tile/X ft. and Long being five tiles/X*5 ft., with Personal being in the same tile, is easier to run for people coming in from D&D and other grid-based games.

Grod_The_Giant
2018-02-05, 05:48 PM
Hmm... Long (X) would be needed if any sort of speed-enhancing Runes exist at all, as the most basic of combat-relevant speed enhancement would be "can go from Long to Close in one turn", thus needing gradients of Long to cover such things. Although I think Mutants and Masterminds has scale-based distance like this with associated speed scales you could look into for some help with that. Grid conversions as an optional rule, like Close being one tile/X ft. and Long being five tiles/X*5 ft., with Personal being in the same tile, is easier to run for people coming in from D&D and other grid-based games.
Nah; M&M just has exponential scaling on range and speed and things. It can get real silly.

As for the range bands thing, Exalted 3e has a similar system. It never quite clicked for me, though-- I found that implementation simultaneously too abstract to give a me good picture of what was happening and too complicated and fiddly to be easy to keep track of. I much prefer Fate's Zones (https://fate-srd.com/fate-core/conflicts#zones) as an abstract positioning thing.

JNAProductions
2018-02-05, 07:16 PM
Nah; M&M just has exponential scaling on range and speed and things. It can get real silly.

As for the range bands thing, Exalted 3e has a similar system. It never quite clicked for me, though-- I found that implementation simultaneously too abstract to give a me good picture of what was happening and too complicated and fiddly to be easy to keep track of. I much prefer Fate's Zones (https://fate-srd.com/fate-core/conflicts#zones) as an abstract positioning thing.

Ooh, yes. That is good info. I will probably use that.

Thanks Grod!

Cluedrew
2018-02-07, 10:23 PM
OK someone mentioned the point that body goes into chassis and that spirit goes into runes. What if you added a third special component that corresponds to mind? Either for symmetry and to give special abilities in that area, or just drop regular stats. You might still have stats to set skill values, but they would come directly from what you spent in chassis, runes or... core?

You could add some interesting things there, especially if you went all in on playing a mechanical construct. For instance, being able to tell a lie might be a special ability, because it is not something that most wizards (or whatever made the golems) would likely want them to do. Even if they have enough social ability to figure out what a lie is.

JNAProductions
2018-02-07, 10:46 PM
Chassis, Spirit, and Cortex, maybe?

I dunno. I've got ideas, I'm just struggling to work them into a system. Like, what effects should Runes have? Should I try to model everything, or just focus on a few things? And so on.

Grod_The_Giant
2018-02-08, 07:25 AM
Chassis, Spirit, and Cortex, maybe?

I dunno. I've got ideas, I'm just struggling to work them into a system. Like, what effects should Runes have? Should I try to model everything, or just focus on a few things? And so on.
I mean, part of it is a question of rules density: a "Rune of Flame" could mean anything from "you can manipulate fire with a will check, have run" to "here is a two page list of spells that correspond to this rune, pick five."

JNAProductions
2018-02-08, 05:54 PM
Making a lot of progress on the doc... Kinda. Look over it, if you could, and let me know what you think.

Cluedrew
2018-02-09, 11:05 AM
You know, maybe this is just me, but I like the idea of playing up the fact that golems are usually created as servants more than soldiers. So instead of runes being weapons, there are tools. So your power character might be built to carry things around, or maybe they were designed for construction and can manipulate stone. A controller might have some direct combat abilities to contain "experiments" but they might also use telekinesis to clean the wizard's house. And that is assuming they all have combat abilities, depending on the type of adventures you want to run.

I mean golems as a typical adventuring party is one thing, but the house servants going on out try and save their wizard creator from some trouble is quite another. And honestly I think I like the second idea better. I just like the idea of "non-standard" systems and adventures, you may or not agree that this is a good place for it.

JNAProductions
2018-02-09, 12:55 PM
You know, maybe this is just me, but I like the idea of playing up the fact that golems are usually created as servants more than soldiers. So instead of runes being weapons, there are tools. So your power character might be built to carry things around, or maybe they were designed for construction and can manipulate stone. A controller might have some direct combat abilities to contain "experiments" but they might also use telekinesis to clean the wizard's house. And that is assuming they all have combat abilities, depending on the type of adventures you want to run.

I mean golems as a typical adventuring party is one thing, but the house servants going on out try and save their wizard creator from some trouble is quite another. And honestly I think I like the second idea better. I just like the idea of "non-standard" systems and adventures, you may or not agree that this is a good place for it.

Not a bad idea. Admittedly, I primarily play D&D, so combat is where my mind goes to first. But yeah, it could be cool for that.

With that in mind, there'd definitely be war golems, but it's true players do not need to play as them.

Mith
2018-02-09, 01:37 PM
Chassis, Spirit, and Cortex, maybe?

I dunno. I've got ideas, I'm just struggling to work them into a system. Like, what effects should Runes have? Should I try to model everything, or just focus on a few things? And so on.

I have only done a read through of the thread, so this may be irrelevant, but my thoughts go to:

Chassis: the physical stats and abilities of the golem

Chakra: the spiritual power that allows for mastery of runes.

Cortex: the Identity of the golem that allows them to grow as an individual. This may be the ability to shrug off mental affects and circumvent their orders.

InkisRatticus
2018-02-11, 07:05 PM
Augments: Physical additions built into the golem

Enhancements: Mental additions that changes the personality, mind-scape, and alignment of the golem.

Warps: Changes to the golems Chakra that allows the use or learning of specific skills.


Aka the items or loot for the golems in your system.

Grod_The_Giant
2018-02-13, 03:22 PM
Making a lot of progress on the doc... Kinda. Look over it, if you could, and let me know what you think.
Sorry! Taking another peek.

Zones look a bit rough at the moment, but I'm not too worried since it looks like you're just cribbing from Fate. Remember to think about the action cost of moving from one zone to another, and about barrier-type DCs (ie, to get from the Streetto the Roof, you need an Athletics check to climb the wall)
Hard to get a sense of how point totals break down without seeing the other two, but 20pts vs 80pts is a huge spread.
Body is looking... both really combat-focused and kind of simple? I doubt you're going to run into Guy At The Gym problems in a game about magical murder-robots, but I would be careful about winding up with more of a 5e-D&D kind of balance issue where Body specialists keep up in terms of damage output, but get left behind in terms of ability to influence the plot. Some super strength-type special abilities, perhaps?
What do the different chassis do?
I would be very cautious about including flaws that directly give you character points. They tend to encourage min-maxing in somewhat negative ways. If you do include them, they should be difficult to circumvent. (Taking Slow for extra points on a ranged character, for instance). Fate or M&M's model of "get metagame currency when flaws come up" is a healthier approach, in my opinion.


(Also, if I didn't say it before, a game where you play as a magical murder-robot sounds pretty fun)

JNAProductions
2018-02-13, 06:01 PM
I'm just kinda trying to get the system more fully fleshed out at the moment-it's much, MUCH easier to tweak an existing system than make one from thin air, so that's what Imma try to do.

Have ye any suggestions for more things to add?

Cluedrew
2018-02-16, 06:05 PM
You know, I'm not usually a fan of classes, but here I think they might work because you could create some very different golems and give them special rules that makes them very different. Like one with a body made from flimsy cloth that can fly around but is effectively incapable of moving things around. Maybe the master's feather pens or something. Not sure but it is something to think about.

As for things to add... do you have a general skill system? There is a bit on dice pools in the first paragraph, but no levels, skill areas or guidelines. Actually I think examples in general might help out, some example golems might be really nice. ... I should add more examples to my homebrew system.