If a god dies, do his clerics lose their power until they find a new faith?

[Cyclone231]

How to say this...

Does faith in a god literally cause the god to give you spells, or does the faith itself channel magical energy in much the same way that faith in a philosophy or ideal does?

[RAGE KING!]

I think it would depend on the cleric. If say, a cleric of Thor worships him 'cuz he likes Thor's ideals, his big hammer, his lightning and beer, then the cleric can get spells, because really he was more worshiping a big Thor-like guy, who has a big hammer, drinks oceans of beer, woos goddesses and throws lightning at people. As opposed to worshiping Thor for Thor. If you're DMing, and a god dies, ask the cleric the reason for worship.

[mabriss lethe]

In almost any circumstance I can think of, I'd say YES.

When the god dies, his clerics lose all their powers.

However, I do remember seeing a feat in one book somewhere that dealt with worshiping a dead god. basically, someone with cleric levels but no god to draw upon can take the feat to get their power back. Don't remember where I saw it though...

[TheGrimace]

Anyone remember how the faithless feature worked from the Dragon Magazine?

It would deal exactly with what you were wondering. It's designed to be for clerics who turn their backs on their gods, but it would work well for this situation.

Basically, it comes up with 1 particularly cool feature available once per level per day based on what god you no longer worship. That's used to replace your spells.

[TheOOB]

That is really campaign specific. In Greyhawk, if a deity is not around, their clerics lose their power, for example a cleric of Theizdun (spelling, the Temple of Elemental Evil One) can only prepare spells if they have one of their deity's relics or at a (un)holy site, as the deity is currently sealed away.

However, in a setting like Eberron, divine magic seems to be more based on your faith then what you have faith in.

[martyboy74]

Seeing as you don't even need to worship a god in the first place to get divine powers, I'd say no.

[Tormsskull]

That completely depends on the DM and how the DM is running the game. As an example, in one of my campaigns there are no real gods, though the people believe that there are. So when a cleric learns how to "channel" divine magic, they are actually learning to use an ability from within. They are told that they are drawing upon divine power from their god, though the highest-ranked members of organizations usually know the truth. This makes for excellent plot hooks, i.e. the corrupt church trying to silence heretics and such.

In standard default campaigns, clerics actually draw divine magic straight from a deity, and if that deity were dead, it would only make sense for them to lose all of the powers they draw from their deity.

[nagora]

How to say this...

Does faith in a god literally cause the god to give you spells, or does the faith itself channel magical energy in much the same way that faith in a philosophy or ideal does?

In 1ed the answer is that the faith gives you 1st and 2nd level spells, the diety and/or its agents give you everything above that. I don't think 3e has any detailed notion as to where Clerics & Druids get their spells.

Having faith grant the low level spells gives a crack into the world which new religions can use to build up from, but the details depend on the DM.

[Triaxx]

Forgotten Realms seems to follow: Your God is dead? You're a Fighter with HD difficulties.

[Xuincherguixe]

Seems like generally. I don't really like the idea of spells being directly from gods. but if that's how it is you don't really have any options but to find a new god.

I think how I'd deal with it is treat the priest as having a caster level of somewhere between -2 and -4. I like to think that much of the priest's power comes from the priest(though they might not know it), but they aren't used to not having that god around. Though that penalty might eventually go away as the priest becomes better able to draw on their own power. Or of course, if they convert to some other god.

[Nightgaunt]

Forgotten Realms seems to follow: Your God is dead? You're a Fighter with HD difficulties.

Unless of course your gods portfolio was picked up by another god, and then you just start following him.

gods in the realms work a lot like large companies, they just kind of absorb one another.

:Note:
And on another note, if I was a PC in the world and I suddenly lost all of my powers because the DM decided that wasting my god was good for his plot, I'd probably be irritated. Unless it is a super heavy RP game with very little combat and dice rolling it would destroy the effectiveness of that PC. Playing a sub-par character can be fun, having your character made sub-par by the DM is not so much fun.

[ranger89]

I'd say yes but agree that it depends on the campaign setting. In my campaign, divine casters are getting their abilities directly from the deity. No deity, no power. Conversely, deities gain their power from the number of worshippers they have (a la Neil Gaiman's "American Gods (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Gods)").


Seeing as you don't even need to worship a god in the first place to get divine powers, I'd say no.

martyboy74: Out of curiosity, where are you getting that from? Granted, it's up to the player to decide how they want to play their divine caster but don't you consider an hour of prayer to regain spells worship?

[Kiren]

if your cleric is evil, take some levels in ur priest, clerics can also get power from something they really believe in

[martyboy74]

martyboy74: Out of curiosity, where are you getting that from? Granted, it's up to the player to decide how they want to play their divine caster but don't you consider an hour of prayer to regain spells worship?

Of course it's worship. The diety, however, may just be a symbol that their minds use to process the concepts that they get their powers from. As stated by (many) other people in this thread, it does depend on the setting.

[Triaxx]

I've found that if I need a god to die as part of my plot, I get the players to do it for me. That way when the cleric loses all his powers, it's his fault not mine. I do give the cleric's player fair warning, and make a secret roll every turn to have him realize that it is his god. Usually based on Knowledge (Religion), and I give Paladin's the same chance.

I've had at least one Cleric turn the Rogue and Bard on the Barbarian and Fighter, and have a running battle in the woods.

[I_Got_This_Name]

martyboy74: Out of curiosity, where are you getting that from? Granted, it's up to the player to decide how they want to play their divine caster but don't you consider an hour of prayer to regain spells worship?

Clerics can follow philosophies and ideals, not just deities. So, as long as a cleric is a devout enough follower of the proper principals, they don't need to worship a god.

[Sir Conkey]

In forgotten realms there is a feat for worshipping dead gods, because even if a god dies a part of him is still floating around in the ether between planes right, a god can't be destroyed completely, alternativly if one god kills another he usually absorbs the essence and takes over his worshipers, thats what the god Set did to Seths Yuan-ti worshipers... And he lied and said he was a reincarnation of Seth

[Matthew]

In 1ed the answer is that the faith gives you 1st and 2nd level spells, the diety and/or its agents give you everything above that. I don't think 3e has any detailed notion as to where Clerics & Druids get their spells.

Having faith grant the low level spells gives a crack into the world which new religions can use to build up from, but the details depend on the DM.

The 3e Deities and Demi Gods Book is the place to look for these sorts of ideas. It has a lot to say on the subject, but nothing definitive (as it prefers a "here's a bunch of possibilities approach", unusual for 3e)






Seeing as you don't even need to worship a god in the first place to get divine powers, I'd say no.

martyboy74: Out of curiosity, where are you getting that from? Granted, it's up to the player to decide how they want to play their divine caster but don't you consider an hour of prayer to regain spells worship?

Of course it's worship. The diety, however, may just be a symbol that their minds use to process the concepts that they get their powers from. As stated by (many) other people in this thread, it does depend on the setting.

Also, it doesn't have to be Prayer or Worship, it can be Meditation, according to the PHB and SRD. Thus, a Paladin could simply meditate upon the Cause of Lawful Good and have his Spells replenished.

[CabbageTheif]

just to throw one more opinion into the mix, i think that it also depends on how the god dies.

in my current campaign, the worrld the players are in is a chessboard, a battlefeild that superseeds good and evil, law and chaos. and there are rules, but essentially when one god destroyes another (whether it be banished to another dimenshion, plunged into the raging fire of whatever, or whathaveyou) the god who was responcible gains the orriginal gods powers, even if they are contradictory. all of the clerics of the dead god feel this, and must make a choice; am i loyal to the ideals, or the persona? if its the ideals, then they will live on in the god that was victorious and you dont loose anything (except an alignment change, when necessary). but if its the persona, then you stay loyal to the dead god and loose your spellcasting abilities. i am working on a prestege class for this, you may hear mor about it later

in short, just like everyone else here says; depends

[boomwolf]

it really depends on the faith and god system for your game world.

i don't know yours (nor the DND 3.5 for that matter) but i know that in discworld, gods cant die as long they got believers....so its irrelevant.

[Miklus]

I would say "yes", if the god dies, the clerics loose all powers. Harsh...I know.

But can a god really die as long as people worship him/her? I would say no. Maybe the god can be sealed away or imprisoned, but not killed outright. The only way for a god to "die" is to be forgotten, that means no worshipers.

The way the gods fight would be to steal each others worshipers. That means missionaries and burning the other cleric at the stake :smallamused:

[Matthew]

That's just one view of how Deities gain their power and not one that applies to Default D&D (as I understand it), though it does apply more or less to the Forgotten Realms. The idea that a Deity loses his power if nobody believes in him is a bit silly, in my opinion.

[Kellus]

Interestingly, I was just reading an Arcana Unearthed book called Requiem for a God. It's an event book that talks about the deaths of gods and the impact it has on the world. I do recommend it, if you're interested in this idea.

One prestige class in there sounds like what it is you're looking for: it's called the Disaffected. Disaffected were clerics whose god has died, and over the course of the class they recover spellcasting ability and more besides. It's certainly worth a look.

[jindra34]

In truth it depends on how the god 'died'

If the god was subsumed into another god then the bets are the clerics lose their abilities.

If a mortal assumed the position of the god odds are the clerics keep their powers.

If the god went into remission the it could go either way.

[endoperez]

While I'd usually agree on "yes", as many others in here... the other option could be used for a very interesting campaign.

This idea is based on some of Terry Pratchett's books, especially Small Gods and Monstrous Regiment. In Small Gods, the mighty god Om finds himself stranded in the world with just one person worshipping, serving, believing in him, when the other Omnians (all hundred thousand of them) instead believe on the church. They do the proper rites and say the proper prayers, but they don't believe, it's just a habit and not actually a matter of faith.

Monstrous Regiment happens in a theocracy whose god is insane. The commandments and sacraments are seemingly random, and more are being written all the time, making everyone's life harder and harder. People have hope in the Duchess, a beloved historical figure who disappeared into her manor decades ago and hasn't been seen since. People honor her paintings, and the paintings are everywhere. People believe that she'll make things better... some even go as far as to believe that she's speaking to them.
The truth is that the god is dead (for an unnamed reason), and the priests have been writing down the echoes of memories of a being that no longer exists. At the same time, the Duchess, long since dead, has heard everything people told her pictures, their prayers, and achieved minor divine powers. She's too weak to help, and no one hears her because they're waiting for the real, flesh-and-blood duchess and not an ethereal voice in their heads... and so she cries, unheard, unable to help but unable to close her ears to the prayers of her dying kingdom.


That'd make for an interesting campaign. The clerics still have their power, because they believe, but the god is still dead. The few who do hear the Duchess are thought insane, or killed for badmouthing the rightful ruler.

[Voodzik]

Sorry, OT here, but I should say for those interested that, believe it or not, Terry pratchet writes funny books, even if those plots don't sound especially funny.

[Tar Palantir]

I know that in Faerun, many gods were killed in the Time of Troubles, and people still worshiped some of them, but their powers were granted by another diety who was "filling in" so to speak.

[DreadSpoon]

To expand on what Palantir said, in many cases in FR a new god took the portfolio of an old one, and the clerics never knew. A god can take any form and portray himself to his followers in any way he pleases, and the gods generally don't even _have_ to portray themselves - the clerics never see, hear, or otherwise interact with their god. They pray, they feel a presence, and they have spells.

In some books, one good would fill in for another even with the god being prayed to wasn't dead.

Best answer is: you're the DM, it's up to you, bub.

[Drider]

I'd let them keep their spells, It's easier to say his faith to the god is what allowed him to tap into his clerical powers. The only way they should lose their powers this way is if the plot demands it.

[Zoraciel Ivtel]

Oddly enough, that exact happening occured in the campaign I'm running. The cleric's player left us since then, but at the time I just had it that even though her God was dead, a God of a similar alignment or who was just on good terms with the first took over granting powers.

Mostly because if I'd stolen their cleric, my party would have killed me.:smalleek:

[Dryad]

Well, the books do give us answers on this one:
Clerics follow deities. Deities are personifications of ideologies. If you follow an ideology instead of the name of said deity, then you'd have your spells, right there.
It is, according to the rules, possible to be a receive cleric spells without worship. Like the buddhist priest, there is no real god to pray to, but there is the idea, the spirituality, and the believe and faith.

So if a deity dies: As long as the priest doesn't know this: Grant her spells. As soon as she finds out: Ask for will saves to disbelieve. But as long as she hasn't figured it out: No worries.

[Matthew]

Um, I don't think that's quite what the books say. You can worship a Deity or a Cause, but a Deity isn't the personification of a Cause, it's just a Deity. What is your sourse for the above statement?