Do Arcane Archers just need more shots to be viable?

[Ellisthion]

The consensus about Arcane Archers seems to be that 2 Arcane Shots per rest is a bit weak. From those who've tried it:


Is this a legitimate issue in actual play?
How many shots should they get? Should it scale with level?
If the number of shots is increased, is that enough, or are other fixes needed?

[Unoriginal]

The consensus about Arcane Archers seems to be that 2 Arcane Shots per rest is a bit weak. From those who've tried it:


Is this a legitimate issue in actual play?
How many shots should they get? Should it scale with level?
If the number of shots is increased, is that enough, or are other fixes needed?


I've never seen anyone saying the Arcane Archer wasn't viable. Not amazing, fair enough.

[Seclora]

I think that they do need more shots, especially at higher levels. I'd look at the Warlock spell slots for a better idea for scaling, because at higher levels, they should be using those abilities a bit more than twice a short rest.

The other thing is, they just don't get enough bang for their buck. The damaging options need to deal more damage, and the crowd control options need to effect more targets. The Arcane Archer can nova both their shots in round one, but then they're just a generic archery fighter with a few slightly more hurt targets.

So I would say they need some kind of regular damage boost to their shots, to make them a better damaging option, in line with spells of 1st-5th level. They also need increased higher level uses of those shots. Alternatively, they need an always on damage boost to put them on par with other at will ranged attackers, like Kensei or Warlock.

[Aett_Thorn]

I would say that Arcane Archers are okay, but not great at the particular thing that they are supposed to be good at.

Compare them to a ranged Battlemaster Fighter:

Arcane Archer -

2 shots total per rest
Damage is roughly 1d6-2d6-2d8 depending on the shot option, although some have more unique effects and don't do any damage
Damage is doubled at level 18
2 options to choose from at level 3, and one more at levels 7th, 10th, 15th, and 18th
At 15th level, gain one shot if you don't have any when battle begins
Saves are against Int


Battlemaster -

4 shots total per rest, going up to 5 at level 7, and 6 at level 15
Damage is 1d8, going up to 1d10 at level 10, and 1d12 at level 18
3 options to choose from at level 3, and two more at 7th, 10th, and 15th level
At 15th level, gain one dice if you don't have any when battle begins
Saves are against Str or Dex (player choice)


So, I would say that Arcane Archer is great at level 3, but will tail off at a much greater rate than the Battlemaster until level 18. The Battlemaster does less damage per application of their feature, but gets to do it at least twice as often, and can do more things with their options (get damage on an off turn, turn a miss into a hit, allow companions a move/attack on the BM's turn, or heal an ally, in addition to doing damage. Certainly, the AA can do a bunch of more fantasical things, such as having a AoE attack, banishing an enemy, or dealing continued damage. However, I would say that those are more than offset by having many of these effects rely on a non-primary stat. The BM can just bump Str or Dex, and be fine. The AA, however, also needs to bump Int for their saving throws.

I'm also not a fan of how their flavor seems to be saying that they are either Arcane-y or Druid-y, but then their saves are only tied to Int, and not either Int or Wis (player choice).

AA just seems off to me, even if they are still effective. To be honest, if I really wanted to make a true Arcane Archer in this game, I'd probably go Bard, and pick up a lot of the Ranger ranged weapon spells as my Magical Secrets (Lightning Arrow, Conjure Barrage, Swift Quiver, etc). I personally believe that this gives much more of an Arcane Archer feel to it than the AA subclass.

[rbstr]

AA looks bad because of expectations. It doesn't do what some people want, which is to shoot a ****load of powerful magical arrows everywhere...but it can't really do that and still be based on the Fighter. What you do end up with, though, is an archetype that's fine. And just like most every other Fighter archetype you're mostly a fighter with a bit of something extra to do.

Even when you're out of arrows AA gets the option to retarget and reroll a miss as a bonus action along with their arrows doing magic damage at level 7, which are pretty big benefits. BM really gets a ribbon at that level.
Plus Ever-ready shot is also stronger than Relentless since each arrow is worth more.

I do feel like the arrows damage should scale a bit better instead of doubling at level 18 where hardly anyone gets.

[Blood of Gaea]

I think that they do need more shots, especially at higher levels. I'd look at the Warlock spell slots for a better idea for scaling, because at higher levels, they should be using those abilities a bit more than twice a short rest.

The other thing is, they just don't get enough bang for their buck. The damaging options need to deal more damage, and the crowd control options need to effect more targets. The Arcane Archer can nova both their shots in round one, but then they're just a generic archery fighter with a few slightly more hurt targets.

So I would say they need some kind of regular damage boost to their shots, to make them a better damaging option, in line with spells of 1st-5th level. They also need increased higher level uses of those shots. Alternatively, they need an always on damage boost to put them on par with other at will ranged attackers, like Kensei or Warlock.
If an Eldritch Knight gets 1/3 casting levels are a Wizard, an Arcane Archer with the equivalent of 1/3 casting levels as a Warlock. Which is 2 per short rest, so perhaps 1/2 casting levels as a Warlock would work better?

[Vogie]

I do feel like the arrows damage should scale a bit better instead of doubling at level 18 where hardly anyone gets.

I think this is the biggest issue. It's great that you get more shot options at 7th, 10th, 15th, & 18th levels, but they're still doing the same bonus damage as level 3.

Which is odd, as the minor-effect scaling in 5e is good elsewhere.

I would guess maybe increasing the damage by 1 damage die at level 10 (i.e., 2d6 damage at level 3, 3d6 at 10, 4d6 at 18) would be a nice halfway point without feeling epically broken.

I do think that the number of Arcane Shots should increase, and/or have some sort of recovery mechanic built in.

I'd follow the Warlock Spell Slots progression (2 shots from 3-10, 3 shots from 11-16, and 4 available shots from 17-20) and/or the grit mechanic from pathfinder (refresh from Critical Hits and Killing blows).

That would make it certainly on the line with the other archetypes.



The only other thing I could see is some way to create new Arcane shots... A "Grappling Hook" Shot, Teleportation shot, Alarm Shot, Clairvoyance Shot, Stinking Cloud shot, et cetera.

[rbstr]

If you scale the uses you should not scale the damage. At 4x a short rest and 4d6 damage per you're blowing the BM out of the water.

[Pex]

If they need more logic tells me they should have the same number as Battlemasters have maneuvers.

[DarkKnightJin]

I think this is the biggest issue. It's great that you get more shot options at 7th, 10th, 15th, & 18th levels, but they're still doing the same bonus damage as level 3.

Which is odd, as the minor-effect scaling in 5e is good elsewhere.

I would guess maybe increasing the damage by 1 damage die at level 10 (i.e., 2d6 damage at level 3, 3d6 at 10, 4d6 at 18) would be a nice halfway point without feeling epically broken.

I do think that the number of Arcane Shots should increase, and/or have some sort of recovery mechanic built in.

I'd follow the Warlock Spell Slots progression (2 shots from 3-10, 3 shots from 11-16, and 4 available shots from 17-20) and/or the grit mechanic from pathfinder (refresh from Critical Hits and Killing blows).

That would make it certainly on the line with the other archetypes.



The only other thing I could see is some way to create new Arcane shots... A "Grappling Hook" Shot, Teleportation shot, Alarm Shot, Clairvoyance Shot, Stinking Cloud shot, et cetera.

I agree with the "more shots per rest" thing resembling the Warlock slots for usage. Still wouldn't make Ever-Ready Shot useless, since you can't get a Short Rest every time.
As for the damage scaling.. I agree with that too.
There's a 15 level gap between the damage at start, and the first bump to it, now.
That's too damned much. Putting another damage die at roughly the halfway point just makes sense, really.

[Blood of Gaea]

If they need more logic tells me they should have the same number as Battlemasters have maneuvers.
That's honestly a pretty smart idea, I would have to agree with you.

[Vogie]

If you scale the uses you should not scale the damage. At 4x a short rest and 4d6 damage per you're blowing the BM out of the water.

The damage is already scaling, just poorly. At 18, an Arcane Archer effectively has 3 shots (2 normal, 1 everready) per short rest.

If a single additional 4d6 shot will "blow BM out of the water" then that's a very shallow pool. Especially since one of the core components of the BM is augmenting your party - 1d12 of Damage on a raw superiority die is lower than 4d6 on average, but 4d6 damage versus:

an Manuvering attack by a level 18 barbarian?
a Distracting Strike giving your level 18 rogue advantage?

That's not even a contest.

[rbstr]

Even per your own logic it's not a adding single additional shot per short rest. It's still two more at 18. You're going from 2 + 1 everready to 4+1 everready.

If you want to move the goalposts to a holistic thing including all the maneuver options with good setup, we can talk about the Bursting Arrow doing no-save 4d6 on a half-dozen enemies at a time.

Fact is, if you scale damage and uses you're in a place where the arrows can do significantly more damage per use and rest than the BM maneuvers without the need for any kind of setup.

[MaxWilson]

The consensus about Arcane Archers seems to be that 2 Arcane Shots per rest is a bit weak. From those who've tried it:


Is this a legitimate issue in actual play?
How many shots should they get? Should it scale with level?
If the number of shots is increased, is that enough, or are other fixes needed?


Arcane Archer is more viable than it looks at first glance, especially as a multiclass combination, due to:

(1) Not needing concentration to have magic arrows (unlike an Eldritch Knight);
(2) Action economy.
(3) Getting a free quasi-bonus action attack. Instead of having to switch to crossbows and use Crossbow Expert cheese, an Arcane Archer can effectively be attacking three times per round, every round, at level 11, just by converting one of his misses into a bonus action attack. (And if he's using Sharpshooter's "headshot" option, there will be at least one miss per round almost all of the time.)

For example, the abjuration arrow (Banishing Arrow?) incapacitates on a failed save, which means it automatically breaks concentration (as well as depriving the enemy team of action economy), and this can happen without giving up any attacks or DPR.

An Arcane Archer/Shepherd Druid multiclass is a potentially interesting combo which outclasses a pure Hunter Ranger in most respects.

[Vogie]

Even per your own logic it's not a adding single additional shot per short rest. It's still two more at 18. You're going from 2 + 1 everready to 4+1 everready.

If you want to move the goalposts to a holistic thing including all the maneuver options with good setup, we can talk about the Bursting Arrow doing no-save 4d6 on a half-dozen enemies at a time.

Fact is, if you scale damage and uses you're in a place where the arrows can do significantly more damage per use and rest than the BM maneuvers without the need for any kind of setup.

Again, bursting shot *already* does that much damage, RAW. I'm not changing that at all. I'm not moving the goalposts, but I did miscount - you're right, 2 additional is different from 1 additional. Making sure all half-dozen enemies are within a 10 foot diameter at level 18 would take either a lot of setup or a world where enemies have never heard of fireball.

It should be worth noting that fireball, at level 3, deals half of 8d6 damage on a *successful* dex save, which is shockingly close to 4d6 damage... with twice the diameter. I won't apologize for wanting an ability of an 18th-level character to deal damage similar to a 5th level one.

[MaxWilson]

Again, bursting shot *already* does that much damage, RAW. I'm not changing that at all. I'm not moving the goalposts, but I did miscount - you're right, 2 additional is different from 1 additional. Making sure all half-dozen enemies are within a 10 foot diameter at level 18 would take either a lot of setup or a world where enemies have never heard of fireball.

It should be worth noting that fireball, at level 3, deals half of 8d6 damage on a *successful* dex save, which is shockingly close to 4d6 damage... with twice the diameter. I won't apologize for wanting an ability of an 18th-level character to deal damage similar to a 5th level one.

To be fair:

5th level character casts Fireball for 8d6(28) damage in a 40' diameter area.

18th level character shoots three arrows for 3x(+13 to hit for (d8+5)(28)) or 3x(+8 to hit for (d8+15)(58)) points of damage, depending, and 4d6(14) extra in a 20' diameter area. Plus a probable bonus action attack for another (+8 to hit for (d8+15)(19)) points of damage.

Getting things for no action economy cost is a genuine benefit. (But yeah, bursting shot is a mediocre use of magic arrow.)

[Vogie]

Getting things for no action economy cost is a genuine benefit. (But yeah, bursting shot is a mediocre use of magic arrow.)

Precisely. With the added downside of requiring that specific Arcane Shot to actually hit a creature. Not incredibly difficult at level 18, but still a consideration.

[MaxWilson]

Precisely. With the added downside of requiring that specific Arcane Shot to actually hit a creature. Not incredibly difficult at level 18, but still a consideration.

I'm AFB, but I believe you get to declare Arcane Shot after the hit, don't you? So effectively you just need at least one hit during a round in order to use Bursting Shot, not one specific shot.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I'm AFB, but I believe you get to declare Arcane Shot after the hit, don't you? So effectively you just need at least one hit during a round in order to use Bursting Shot, not one specific shot.

You do indeed get to decide if the effect applies after the arrow hits, unless the option doesn't involve an attack roll (piercing and seeking arrows only).

[Vogie]

You do indeed get to decide if the effect applies after the arrow hits, unless the option doesn't involve an attack roll (piercing and seeking arrows only).

I stand corrected. The original UA introduction had them created before firing, but in XGtE it's decided on hit, which is decidedly better.

Giving the Piercing, Seeking & Banishing arrows some damage scaling at 10 would also would require some fudging, as they only go from 1d6 at level 3 to 2d6 at level 18.

Maybe something flat like 1d6+3. Or 1d6+1d4 at level 10. :sigh:

[mephnick]

If they need more logic tells me they should have the same number as Battlemasters have maneuvers.

The effects are much stronger than most of the BM maneuvers IMO, so they shouldn't get as many as BM, but it should be a little closer. I like putting the 3d6 at level 10 and maybe an ability to recover a single shot on one short rest a day.

Otherwise it's still a fighter with multiple attacks probably utilizing sharpshooter with an ability to reroll misses.. AA is strong enough just with that.

[Ellisthion]

Hmm I think the points about not outclassing the Battlemaster are very interesting...

Just considering the raw damage numbers from superiority dice and arcane shots:

Yellow = Battlemaster
Green = normal Arcane Archer
Red = proposed AA with 3 shots at 7th and 3d6 damage at 11th

https://i.imgur.com/tfGrUGO.png

Obviously there's more to this than just straight damage numbers, but this is... something.

[Vogie]

Hmm I think the points about not outclassing the Battlemaster are very interesting...

Just considering the raw damage numbers from superiority dice and arcane shots:

Yellow = Battlemaster
Green = normal Arcane Archer
Red = proposed AA with 3 shots at 7th and 3d6 damage at 11th

https://i.imgur.com/tfGrUGO.png

Obviously there's more to this than just straight damage numbers, but this is... something.

That's impressive. I'll note that you only currently get more shot options (not additional shots) at 7, and I suggested getting a third shot at 11, but the shots scaling up at 10... but that ladder is quite compelling. Nearly Locksteps the superiority dice scaling.

Perhaps a 4th shot at level 17 could be overkill.

[Kane0]

Yeah i'd add a 3rd arrow in there somewhere, and scale damage somewhere between level 3 and 18. Otherwise it's great for a dip and sort of lacklustre in the mid levels.

[MaxWilson]

Yeah i'd add a 3rd arrow in there somewhere, and scale damage somewhere between level 3 and 18. Otherwise it's great for a dip and sort of lacklustre in the mid levels.

It only looks lackluster if you think Arcane Archers are all about the magic arrows. That's an illusion. Arcane Archer is at least 50% about the bonus attack-on-a-miss. Getting 3 Sharpshooter-capable longbow attacks per round at level 7 is something that Battlemasters get only if they resort to Crossbow Expert, which costs a feat, a damage penalty, and a range penalty (120' max instead of 600'). Arcane Archers also don't do half damage against elementals/etc. and zero damage against werewolves.

To compare almost the Battlemaster's whole package to only a fraction of the Arcane Archer's package and then conclude that the Arcane Archery is too weak is not sound analysis. The Arcane Archer looks worse at first than it actually is, because Arcane Shot effects takes up so much space in the rulebook.

[DarkKnightJin]

I propose someone playtests the damage bump at 10th, and the 3rd shot per rest.
If it turns out the damage boost is too much, it cam always be retracted for balance.

I do kinda like the idea of getting a 3rd use between rests as one grows stronger. Makes sense to me.
Maybe give a 4th shot at 18th.. You're gonna be fighting insane stuff at that level, you can use all the help you can get.
Even if Fighter is a nice chassis.

[mephnick]

A whole third shot per Short Rest is too much.

Gaining one extra use at the end of a Short Rest, once per Long Rest, a la Arcane Recovery, is probably about right.

[Khrysaes]

I think arcane archer should be a paladin(or ranger) subclass, and make it melee viable, so no curving shot, or make it a selection like hunter has.. They use spell slots, ala smite, and gain the extra riders that Arcane Archer has. Bam, scaling damage, mor than 2 per short rest.

[Throne12]

Having a player play a AA from 1 to 7. It is fine the way it is if the fighter is calling for short rest every so often he will feel strong. When the AA is using his shots thay are game changing. So i say that its a fine sudclass.

[Kane0]

It only looks lackluster if you think Arcane Archers are all about the magic arrows. That's an illusion. Arcane Archer is at least 50% about the bonus attack-on-a-miss. Getting 3 Sharpshooter-capable longbow attacks per round at level 7 is something that Battlemasters get only if they resort to Crossbow Expert, which costs a feat, a damage penalty, and a range penalty (120' max instead of 600'). Arcane Archers also don't do half damage against elementals/etc. and zero damage against werewolves.

To compare almost the Battlemaster's whole package to only a fraction of the Arcane Archer's package and then conclude that the Arcane Archery is too weak is not sound analysis. The Arcane Archer looks worse at first than it actually is, because Arcane Shot effects takes up so much space in the rulebook.

BM 3: 4x 1d8 maneuvers per rest, 3 known, 1 tool prof
AA 3: 2x 2d6 shots per rest, 2 known, 1 skill prof

BM 7: Study 1 min to learn foe stat (ribbon), +1 die per short rest, +2 known
AA 7: +0 Arrows, bonus action retry on a miss, +1 known

BM 10: increase d8s to d10s, +2 known
AA 10: +1 known

BM 15: Regain on init, +1 die per short rest,+2 known
AA 15: Regain on int, +1 known

BM 18: increase d10s to d12s
AA 18: increase 2d6 to 4d6

The bonus action retry actually does appear quite out of place (especially since it goes with fighter, who gets the most attacks and ASIs already). I'd happily get rid of it to equalize the amount of shots, shot options and/or damage scaling.

[MaxWilson]

The bonus action retry actually does appear quite out of place (especially since it goes with fighter, who gets the most attacks and ASIs already). I'd happily get rid of it to equalize the amount of shots, shot options and/or damage scaling.

You'd have to get rid of the inherent magic (+0) arrows too, to be fair to the battlemaster. Having magic arrows is a fairly hefty advantage against elementals, demons, werewolves, etc.--it's a major reason why Eldritch Knights and now Arcane Archers make better high-level archers than Battlemasters do.

[Kane0]

Funny, I look at it the other way around. +0 arrows is virtually a ribbon in my eyes because of how often a fighter will end up with a magic weapon by level 7-10. I know it isn't assumed to happen, but in practice every game i've seen or been in has had a magic weapon (or a few) available by the mid levels. Just look through the adventure books.

[MaxWilson]

Funny, I look at it the other way around. +0 arrows is virtually a ribbon in my eyes because of how often a fighter will end up with a magic weapon by level 7-10. I know it isn't assumed to happen, but in practice every game i've seen or been in has had a magic weapon (or a few) available by the mid levels. Just look through the adventure books.

In that case there shouldn't be any issue with eliminating it in your rewrite in order to be fair to the battlemaster. They'll be on the same footing, whatever that footing is under that DM.

Of course it's up to you in the end--do as you see fit.

[Kane0]

Yeah, I reckon i'll put that into my tweaks. Thanks!

[Mortis_Elrod]

I've found that the AA is about as fine as a warlock is. Though I would still probably give them a 3rd shot somewhere. Two shots is fine for some frustrating for others. I know alot of people will refuse to use abilties for fear they will need them later, and others use them immediately and regret it. Both of those play styles will suffer if they don't get enough rests. I tend to play fast and lose with spells and other resources, and then welcome the consequences as a challenge.


i feel like 3 shots is the most though. I prefer the last UA AA than the current Xan's one though, i feel like +1 magic arrows makes complete sense for an AA to have early on and definitely makes up for not having as many shots as the BM.

[MaxWilson]

I've found that the AA is about as fine as a warlock is. Though I would still probably give them a 3rd shot somewhere. Two shots is fine for some frustrating for others. I know alot of people will refuse to use abilties for fear they will need them later, and others use them immediately and regret it. Both of those play styles will suffer if they don't get enough rests. I tend to play fast and lose with spells and other resources, and then welcome the consequences as a challenge.

Heh. I'm one of the ones who normally likes to save abilities for dire situations, but ironically I wouldn't have that issue with Arcane Archer: Arcane Shot is so weak that I won't mind not having it in a dire situation, so I might as well just use it at every opportunity. I'd save my Action Surge for an emergency, but I'd throw down a Banishing Arrow on the first target I hit in a multi-opponent combat (unless Bursting Arrow is more appropriate, e.g. against a pack of wolves), or a Shadow Arrow on the first hit in a single-opponent combat.

[wheelercub]

The way the Arcane Archer was released feels like a typo or a "Rules as Intended" error, even though the developers are saying nothing is missing. The Battlemaster, Monster Hunter, and Scout get 4 shots total per short rest, plus another at levels 7, and 15. Which is a total of 6 shots by level 15. In addition the Monster Hunter and Scout get all their options immediately, and the Battlemaster starts with 3 choices, working their way up to 9 very flexible shot options by level 15. By level 18 they have a d12 to be used in a number of incredible ways, including defensively, giving temporary HP, and for battlefield control. And all 3 of these subclasses can use most of the abilities in melee or from a distance, and can choose STR or DEX for their shot DCs.

Battlemaster gets an Artisan Tool skill, and Study Enemy to know their weaknesses (super useful because once you study an enemy type, you know forever). Arcane Archer gets 1 cantrip and 1 skill, Magic Arrow (which is useless the second you get a magic bow, so it should be +1 hit/damage), and Curving Shot which can turn a miss into a Hit. Monster Hunter gets two skills, limited shot options, two spells, an extra language, and Monster Slayer. Scout gets 3 skills, a limited 3 shot options (that don't do any bonus damage for some reason), and Natural Explorer.

Now when we look at the Arcane Archer, we get 2 shot "options" and you can pick between them 2x per short rest. Then we get 1 more "option" at levels 7, 10, 15, and 18 for a total of 6 options as opposed to the 9 that the Battlemaster gets by level 15. Plus we have to use INT as our save DC for our shots, so we are now factoring in a 3rd primary ability score to bump up instead of 2 (DEX/CON/INT vs DEX/CON). Now some shots do 2d6 damage until they reach level 18, when they are bumped up to 4d6 (twice per short rest). And some can affect multiple targets, which is a nice feature. But then if you look at a level 18 Eldritch Knight, you'll wind up doing very similar damage and have more flexible options over the long rest cycle. The difference will be the EK is alot more fun over those encounters using Haste, Fireballs, Burning Hands, Shield, Blur, Mirror Image, and other flexible Arcane spells.

The fix? When looking at the Battlemaster, Eldritch Knight, Monster Hunter, and Scout, I think the Arcane Archer would be better served by getting one additional shot alongside their shot options at levels 7, 10, 15, and 18. For a total of 6 shots per short rest at level 18. After all, you'll be fighting armies and demigods at level 18, and two shots per short rest is not going to cut it otherwise. But if your DM feels like that would be overpowered, I would suggest meeting halfway with an additional shot at levels 10 and 18 for a total of 4 per short rest. I would also consider adding a level 10 option of 3d6 damage, so the spread isn't so long until level 18.

Bear in mind, the AA is specifically designed around being a combat class and although the DPS is comparable to the EK casting and shooting at level 18, the AA . Sure an argument for the Battlemaster being combat focused could be brought up, but Rally can be used outside of combat and before a Short Rest. Which means you can eventually give all allies 1d12+CHA temp HP, and they stay until a Long Rest (pay attention Lore Bard multi-classes). It's also more likely that the AA will then use shot options other than Exploding Arrow or Piercing Arrow in a combat, thus making the class alot more fun to play. And isn't that the point of D&D?

[the secret fire]

So I would say they need some kind of regular damage boost to their shots, to make them a better damaging option, in line with spells of 1st-5th level. They also need increased higher level uses of those shots. Alternatively, they need an always on damage boost to put them on par with other at will ranged attackers, like Kensei or Warlock.

They get a 3rd attack at 11th level, though. These changes would make them the strongest DPR class in the game, in all likelihood. Not sure that's the goal here.

[Foxhound438]

The consensus about Arcane Archers seems to be that 2 Arcane Shots per rest is a bit weak. From those who've tried it:


Is this a legitimate issue in actual play?
How many shots should they get? Should it scale with level?
If the number of shots is increased, is that enough, or are other fixes needed?


I've seen one played (me as DM), and having only two shots would be fine... if not for the fact that everything short of grasping arrow is only a one round duration. The player had fun using the shots, but in tough fights where you actually have several rounds of combat, the short duration really did matter. Rhat's coming from someone who's defended the class in the past as having "special-smite-esque abilities on pact-magic-esque uses", but on further analysis the short duration makes these a lot weaker than "wrathful smite" and "banishing smite"... Which may in fact be by design, since these are designed to be used at range, while smites all require melee attacks last I checked.

I would also argue that it suffers from the same issue that the UA alchemist does in that as you level up you keep picking up more options, but they become more bottom-of-the-barrel as you go. Obviously the banishing arrow is great for control and the shadow arrow gives you advantage that you can action surge into for a bunch of free sharpshooter hits, and some of the other options are neat, but after you take your 1 or 2 favorites you're just picking up junk. This could be fixed by saying there are some simple effects that are open for taking at level 3 (fear, push, etc), and later on you get some initially gated off options that can have more impact (a bursting arrow variant that does like 6d6 force but requires a special action rather than part of an attack is one example, or a full-duration banishment effect as another). However, we're here stuck with 2 uses of one-off effects that arguably hardly stand up to maneuvers, despite the damage applied.

But overall, the class is still acceptable. It's more interesting than champion, and as is it doesn't break anything.

[MrStabby]

In terms of power I think the class is fine, up to about level 8 anyway. In terms of fun I think it could be improved.

I have never been tempted by the class as two times per short rest doing something special is really not that great.

My fix would probably be to do something like raise number of shots per short rest but say that attack stat doesn't get added to damage for those shots. More uses, more cool stuff hopefully still balanced.

In terms of dynamics you could move to X shots per long rest, recover Y per short rest. 4 shots, recover 2 on a short rest might be some good middle ground and give a little more burst flexability

[Mortis_Elrod]

might also be a bit better if you had all the shots, but only could fire 2 per rest.

[Tanarii]

Otherwise it's still a fighter with multiple attacks probably utilizing sharpshooter with an ability to reroll misses.. AA is strong enough just with that.


It only looks lackluster if you think Arcane Archers are all about the magic arrows. That's an illusion. Arcane Archer is at least 50% about the bonus attack-on-a-miss.
Agreed. The extra shot on a miss is the primary ability of the Arcane Archer. And depending on if a campaign follows the treasure tables (which have relatively low probability of finding magic weapons BtB), party size (because less loot per PC per level gained BtB), and how often they face resistant enemies (campaign dependent obviously), the magic arrows can be comparable in value to shots as a feature.

[mephnick]

It always annoys me how DMs hand magic weapons out like candy and then complain that magic arrows/fists are just ribbons and that spells like magic weapon are useless. Like..I'm sorry the game system assumes you're not a ridiculous Monty Hall GM?

[Ninevehn]

My table has always ruled that magic bows add +attack and +damage, but the damage is mundane unless it's magic ammo. Part of the ranged/melee balance divide, for us, is that ranged has the option of stacking attack and damage bonuses if the items are available, but often has trouble getting magical damage onto a target.

Of course, the last campaign I ran was fairly high magic, because one of the players wanted to build magic items.

[stack]

It always annoys me how DMs hand magic weapons out like candy and then complain that magic arrows/fists are just ribbons and that spells like magic weapon are useless. Like..I'm sorry the game system assumes you're not a ridiculous Monty Hall GM?

A primary combatant getting a magic weapon by mid levels is 'handing them out like candy'?

[Tanarii]

A primary combatant getting a magic weapon by mid levels is 'handing them out like candy'?
Late mid levels (8-10) to find around 4 magic weapons among a party would be about right by the treasure tables. Of course, that doesn't specify what types of weapons you'll find.

OTOh magic ammo is fairly common.

[Nidgit]

What if the Arcane Archer is given the option between more damage or more Arcane Arrows? At, say, levels 10 and 18, the Arcane Archer gets to choose between adding another shot per short rest or adding a damage die to effects. It's a low-powered fix that smooths out the damage curve without dramatically increasing the strength of the character, plus it gives the player some more control over their play style.

[MaxWilson]

OTOh magic ammo is fairly common.

Even though it makes zero economic sense for anyone ever to create magic ammunition, by PHB or Xanathar's rules. Le sigh.

[mephnick]

A primary combatant getting a magic weapon by mid levels is 'handing them out like candy'?

Everyone finding the exact magic weapons they need by level 10+? Sure. But I see people here and on reddit like "your party is level 5, why don't they all have magic weapons?!" and it makes me want to choke them.

[Foxhound438]

Everyone finding the exact magic weapons they need by level 10+? Sure. But I see people here and on reddit like "your party is level 5, why don't they all have magic weapons?!" and it makes me want to choke them.

me: we're starting a new campaign at level 3
my players: so five uncommons, 2 rares, and a very rare, right?

[Nifft]

Even though it makes zero economic sense for anyone ever to create magic ammunition, by PHB or Xanathar's rules. Le sigh.

Therefore, whenever magic ammo is created (presumably by accident), it's immediately sold off at bargain-basement prices due to the shame and disgust that it elicits amongst even its makers.

[Chugger]

I fear that AA is going the way of the phb beast master. At least, with beast master, you can be small race and get a mount.

Archer battlemaster is just - perfect synergy with SS feat. Go human and get SS at lvl 1. At lvl 3 you have 4 uses of Precision per short rest. At lvl 4 your dex goes up to 18 (assuming point buy, starting dex of 16). At lvl 6 fighters get an ASI - now dex is 20. At lvl 8 probably get Lucky - unless monsters in-your-face is a problem - then maybe Mobile (or dip rogue to get cunning action to bonus-action escape things in your face). Or get xbow mastery to shoot w/ bow or xbow at point blank range. So many options.

But mostly you get to look at the monster before you shoot - try to guess how high it's AC is. You should know the ac where the math works or doesn't (there are algorithms - not hard to find). You decide to take the minus five or not and roll. If your roll is awful and this is not an important fight, maybe accept the risk. If your roll is a 13 and probably misses (and you feel you need to hit - this is a more important fight), roll Precision and on average get 17 - which will hit a lot of things. Or if you are pretty certain a short rest is due after this fight - use Precision a lot. Use Lucky if you have it; try to fix really bad rolls. Can you get Bless? You can dip cleric and get it - not hard to have a wis 13 or 14 and 16s in Dx and Con - for perception bonus and ability to mc cleric and/or ranger.

Once you wrap your head around the fact that - at least from an opt standpoint - the BM Archer is all about getting his -5 +10 feated shot (ss) to hit - and once you start doing that often - you're a monster. Fights are usually short. And if a BM archer runs out of precision and Lucky and is fighting high ac monsters, it's not like he's useless landing 3 shots a round at lvl 11 (4 if doing hand xbow and xbow master).
AA really struggles in most situations to keep up - unless there's some amazing way to do an AA that I'm missing.

[MaxWilson]

I fear that AA is going the way of the phb beast master. At least, with beast master, you can be small race and get a mount.

Archer battlemaster is just - perfect synergy with SS feat. Go human and get SS at lvl 1. At lvl 3 you have 4 uses of Precision per short rest. At lvl 4 your dex goes up to 18 (assuming point buy, starting dex of 16). At lvl 6 fighters get an ASI - now dex is 20. At lvl 8 probably get Lucky - unless monsters in-your-face is a problem - then maybe Mobile (or dip rogue to get cunning action to bonus-action escape things in your face). Or get xbow mastery to shoot w/ bow or xbow at point blank range. So many options. *snip*

Once you wrap your head around the fact that - at least from an opt standpoint - the BM Archer is all about getting his -5 +10 feated shot (ss) to hit - and once you start doing that often - you're a monster. Fights are usually short. And if a BM archer runs out of precision and Lucky and is fighting high ac monsters, it's not like he's useless landing 3 shots a round at lvl 11 (4 if doing hand xbow and xbow master).

AA really struggles in most situations to keep up - unless there's some amazing way to do an AA that I'm missing.

It sounds like you're forgetting about Curving Shot. A Battlemaster can turn a miss into a hit with Precise Shot a few times per short rest. An Arcane Archer can do it every single round with a bonus action, as long as there's a second eligible target within 60'. There's more to both subclasses than Curving/Precise Shot, but there's some real synergy there with Sharpshooter.

Eldritch Knights are IMO the best kind of archer, but Arcane Archer is right up there too, with Battlemaster Archer a little bit behind.

[mephnick]

Also a Battlemaster that only uses Precision Attack is a hell of a lot more boring than an Arcane Archer.

[Vogie]

Archer battlemaster is just - perfect synergy

I know - that's why the Arcane Archer with the Martial Adept feat is gold. You get all of the benefits of Maneuvers without the incredibly dull playstyle of the BM Archer.

[Foxhound438]

I know - that's why the Arcane Archer with the Martial Adept feat is gold. You get all of the benefits of Maneuvers without the incredibly dull playstyle of the BM Archer.

problem there is that you only get one use of a smaller die.... Though I do agree that it's a fine pickup, since fighters have so many feat slots. Maybe if you're like me and you still want to max int as well as dex it comes in so late that it doesn't have as much impact as I'd like, but with vhuman you still get 4 feats: SS obviously, probably lucky, then might as well take martial adept, and maybe somewhere in there take resilient: wis or a con boost.

[Zonugal]

problem there is that you only get one use of a smaller die.... Though I do agree that it's a fine pickup, since fighters have so many feat slots. Maybe if you're like me and you still want to max int as well as dex it comes in so late that it doesn't have as much impact as I'd like, but with vhuman you still get 4 feats: SS obviously, probably lucky, then might as well take martial adept, and maybe somewhere in there take resilient: wis or a con boost.

If you dip into two levels of Spell-less Ranger you can nab two maneuvers and four superiority dice (in addition to favored enemy, natural explorer, & a fighting style).

All you need is a wisdom score of 13 and two open levels...

[MaxWilson]

problem there is that you only get one use of a smaller die.... Though I do agree that it's a fine pickup, since fighters have so many feat slots. Maybe if you're like me and you still want to max int as well as dex it comes in so late that it doesn't have as much impact as I'd like, but with vhuman you still get 4 feats: SS obviously, probably lucky, then might as well take martial adept, and maybe somewhere in there take resilient: wis or a con boost.

Mobility is important to archers, so Mounted Combatant or Mobile is IMO a higher priority than Martial Adept, which is merely one trick shot per short rest.

Depending on your build and role in the party, the dexterous archer may also be the party stealth specialist, so Skulker may be a good pick too. It tends to combine well with Sharpshooter to guarantee you at least one big hit per round, as long as you're good at hiding. (Unless the DM has, like me, changed the rules for ranged advantage based on being unseen--so Skulker is worse in my games than in vanilla, though it is still quite good.)

[Chugger]

Well then play an arcane archer, but with only two shots - well I guess it's like a warlock - maybe it doesn't suck as much as that limit sounds...but I'm not playing one. Their entire list of stuff they can do (like a curved shot) is impressive, but they're very quickly reduced to just normal shooting. Cuz they used their special thing or they don't dare use their special thing. BM archers can gamble - can take the -5 and still hit even w/out precision - they're much more appealing and useful. AA just feels far too gimped and designer-groomed and limited.

EK? EK archer ... well yes people swear by them. Strongest EK is a BB'er or GFB'er in melee, from what I can tell. EK archer - I'm not even sure where you see the interest or power. Okay maybe they do damage on round one. On round two they can use that ability to give the target a disad on ST and do Hold Person - and action surge - except the target is not humanoid most of the time (campaign dependent - some are) - and then that's it - the target gets its turn and probably rolls out of hold person - and now what? The EK is back to being a normal archer. A lvl 11 BM archer (action surging) gets off _seven_ shots w/ xbow mastery, doing a possible +70 (the feat bonus alone, from ss). An EK auto-critting is 2d8 vs 1d8 ... which is a Costco-sized jar of Meh Sauce if you ask me.

Well go on - play AA - play EK - they will work - and even better if you have a roleplaying angle that makes them come to life - all good. But for optimizing I think some of you just aren't seeing it. And yes, a lot of classes just melee - or just melee and try to stun - or just EB - or just shoot arrows - and yeah, some are not as challenging to play as wiz or sorc or cleric or bard or so on. But please don't act like BM archer is the only one subject to this. BM archer has access, also, to other master things - and has roughly equal choice to AA in this, though AA can banish and do higher lvl stuff - BM can maneuver a friend out of melee or other creative, cool stuff. And again, I see playing AA as "do I dare use one of my _two_ special shots now or save it?" <- anxiety//not that fun, at least not for me. Even picking which ones ... a lot of AA's special shots are situationally useful. I can see an AA picking two potentially strong ones...and go 3 adventures in a row where they don't really shine.

EDIT - A BM archer can also have a criminal background and stealth - pick locks and so on. Of course AA and EK and do this do. And all can MC to open doors, like getting cunning action.

BM archer kind of exists to maximize the SS feat, to do everything you can to land each -5 +10 shot. Although you don't have to play it that way - again DnD allows for weaker characters to be successful, too.

[MaxWilson]

Well then play an arcane archer, but with only two shots - well I guess it's like a warlock - maybe it doesn't suck as much as that limit sounds...but I'm not playing one. Their entire list of stuff they can do (like a curved shot) is impressive, but they're very quickly reduced to just normal shooting. Cuz they used their special thing or they don't dare use their special thing. BM archers can gamble - can take the -5 and still hit even w/out precision - they're much more appealing and useful. AA just feels far too gimped and designer-groomed and limited.

Arcane Archers can gamble with the -5 too, and if they miss, they just reroll with their bonus action (on a different target).

The arrows are not quite a ribbon--e.g. Shadow Arrow could be useful for gaining advantage, especially if you Action Surge to exploit it--but if you imagine that Arcane Archers are all about the magic arrows, you're being fooled.


EK? EK archer ... well yes people swear by them. Strongest EK is a BB'er or GFB'er in melee, from what I can tell. EK archer - I'm not even sure where you see the interest or power.

Being able to cast Magic Arrow against anything that resists your weapon damage is a big part of it, but Arcane Archers get that for free. Still, that +1 to hit/damage is significant when combined with Sharpshooter, and is never a bad use of a bonus action. Having access to Shield/Absorb Elements/Expeditious Retreat is good for your defensive capabilities, and Booming Blade/Greenflame Blade lets you mix it up in melee as needed despite not being melee-specialized. (Expeditious Retreat + Mobile feat is particularly good for exploiting difficult terrain without penalty, and of course Mobile also has synergies with Booming Blade.)

If your targets are not resistant or immune to normal weapons, you can even cast Darkness on yourself (it's an evocation spell) to gain advantage on ranged attacks, if the DM has not "fixed" the ranged attack rules to work more sensibly. Attackers can't see you (you're heavily obscured), but you can see them (they are not heavily obscured), therefore advantage.

The chance to pick up cantrips like Mold Earth (for earthworks) and Minor Illusion (benefit depends on your DM but at minimum it's kind of cool) or Prestidigitation (ultimate convenience cantrip for outdoor living) is a pretty nice fringe benefit.


Okay maybe they do damage on round one. On round two they can use that ability to give the target a disad on ST and do Hold Person - and action surge - except the target is not humanoid most of the time (campaign dependent - some are) - and then that's it - the target gets its turn and probably rolls out of hold person - and now what? The EK is back to being a normal archer. A lvl 11 BM archer (action surging) gets off _seven_ shots w/ xbow mastery, doing a possible +70 (the feat bonus alone, from ss). An EK auto-critting is 2d8 vs 1d8 ... which is a Costco-sized jar of Meh Sauce if you ask me.

Or maybe the EK casts Darkness before combat begins (it's got a fairly long duration by 5E standards, 10 minutes), and then when combat begins they get seven shots at advantage, assuming the same Crossbow Expert feat that you gave to the Beastmaster. Seven shots at advantage beats seven shots without advantage. Precise Strike can potentially even that up, but then you're out of superiority dice and are back to being just a plain old fighter, whereas the Eldritch Knight is still in Darkness at advantage. Or, if you're fighting a weapon-resistant target like a Grick Alpha, the EK has the option to drop Darkness and cast Magic Weapon with his bonus action, letting him do normal damage whereas the BM is stuck at half damage. Of if there's a whole ton of enemies like winter wolves, the EK can Expeditious Retreat so that he can kill enemies and still hold the range open for longer and not get killed. The Battlemaster is stuck just running in that situation, with no chance to shoot back, and therefore nothing to discourage enemies from chasing him.

EK has options to choose from where Battlemaster does not. The Arcane Archer doesn't have so many options to choose from, but at least their baseline isn't terrible (built-in magic weapon damage and bonus action attack on a miss, built-in Prestidigitation). If you don't like options, or you have another good use for your concentration due to multiclassing, Arcane Archer could be a good pick.

The Battlemaster does however have a cooler name, reminiscent of 85-ton assault mechs.


BM archer kind of exists to maximize the SS feat, to do everything you can to land each -5 +10 shot. Although you don't have to play it that way - again DnD allows for weaker characters to be successful, too.

Again, Eldritch Knight and Arcane Archer both have ways of gaining bonuses or advantage on all of their shots, which is arguably better than a Battlemaster spamming Precise Shot every time he misses by 4 or less. (And sometimes you roll low on your superiority dice and miss anyway, wasting that superiority die to no effect, whereas advantage from shooting at a blind enemy applies to all of your shots at no extra cost--unless the DM has fixed the vision rules of course.)

[Kane0]

but if you imagine that Arcane Archers are all about the magic arrows, you're being fooled.


That about sums up my issues with AA.



The Battlemaster does however have a cooler name, reminiscent of 85-ton assault mechs.


Good point, but I have a preference for 'Stalker' myself.

Edit: Now i'm feeling the urge to make a bundle of BT inspired subclasses and creatures. Marauder, Highlander, Shadow Cat, Enforcer...

[MaxWilson]

Edit: Now i'm feeling the urge to make a bundle of BT inspired subclasses and creatures. Marauder, Highlander, Shadow Cat, Enforcer...

Or, hmmmm, code names for PCs. I'm imagining this conversation via Rary's Telepathic Bond.

"Stalker, this is Timberwolf, come back."
"Timberwolf, this is Stalker. I'm en route to rendezvous point with party guests. I have a large, repeat a LARGE, force of orcs on my six. Think you can set up an appropriate reception? Over."
"Stalker, this is Warhammer. I've got you covered. We'll keep your guests toasty. See you at the rendezvous, good buddy. Over."
"I copy that. Good hunting. Stalker out."

[Jerrykhor]

2 shots is too stingy, its true. That, and the weird scaling that only happens at level 18.